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[Patch 1.0.0.148: Kha'Zix] General Discussion - Page 188

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Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-16 09:21:13
October 16 2012 09:20 GMT
#3741
I hope I don't sound too butthurt/ignorant for saying this, it takes little mechanical skills (beside typing in timer?) to play Nunu/Maokai/Shyvana. TOO basically just plays one of these three only.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Zhiroo
Profile Joined February 2011
Kosovo2724 Posts
October 16 2012 09:28 GMT
#3742
That's not entirely true. He loves to play a lot of Lee Sin in solo queue actually even though I've hardly ever seen him pull out Lee in a tournament game.
LoL EuW: Zhiroo - By starting this squabble you've proven nothing but how vast your stupidity is.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
October 16 2012 09:35 GMT
#3743
On October 16 2012 18:28 Zhiroo wrote:
That's not entirely true. He loves to play a lot of Lee Sin in solo queue actually even though I've hardly ever seen him pull out Lee in a tournament game.


He can do w/e he wants in soloQ.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Dusty
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3359 Posts
October 16 2012 11:20 GMT
#3744
On October 16 2012 18:28 Zhiroo wrote:
That's not entirely true. He loves to play a lot of Lee Sin in solo queue actually even though I've hardly ever seen him pull out Lee in a tournament game.


He plays a lot of Lee, but he always ends up feeding
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
October 16 2012 12:02 GMT
#3745
On October 16 2012 18:20 Sufficiency wrote:
I hope I don't sound too butthurt/ignorant for saying this, it takes little mechanical skills (beside typing in timer?) to play Nunu/Maokai/Shyvana. TOO basically just plays one of these three only.

He plays a lot of nocturne too, and I want to know how or why Nunu Maokai and Shyv are less mechanical than any other jungle. As cloudtemplar said, jungle is the least mechanical role in the game.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
SagaZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
France3460 Posts
October 16 2012 12:35 GMT
#3746
On October 16 2012 18:20 Sufficiency wrote:
I hope I don't sound too butthurt/ignorant for saying this, it takes little mechanical skills (beside typing in timer?) to play Nunu/Maokai/Shyvana. TOO basically just plays one of these three only.

To be completly honest, I don't think there are more than 3 champions that need mechanical skills in the game... And even then it's not super hight.
Everything is in positioning and evaluating the situation in this game, "mechanics" are vastly overated.
Be nice, buy wards and don't feed double buff.
Promises
Profile Joined February 2004
Netherlands1821 Posts
October 16 2012 12:43 GMT
#3747
Could you give your definition of mechanics then? I'm confused ^^
I'm a man of my word, and that word is "unreliable".
riotjune
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States3393 Posts
October 16 2012 13:38 GMT
#3748
Junglers have to keep track of other stuff though, 3 buffs (4 if you can get your team to contest enemy blue), dragon, plus constantly monitoring all 3 lane situations and position of enemy jungler/mid for ganking/counterganking, on top of knowing when enemy wards go out (jump that lone wandering noob support or gank lane right when their ward goes out), on top of farming jungle and enemy wraiths (which mid can do also). Duties are usually shared with support (asian supports calling all the shots lol) since everyone else too busy playing whack a mole/harass/all-in and the occasional glance at mini for mia. Or jungler can just camp one lane all day heh
phyvo
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5635 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-16 13:47:33
October 16 2012 13:45 GMT
#3749
I generally think of mechanics as purely physical capabilities that could easily be trained with some simulation even without a real opponent. More precisely you could say they're skills that have nothing to do with making correct tactical or strategical decisions. E.g being able to press buttons for timing windows (last hitting, smiting baron), reaction time, chaining together combos in the correct order, and being able to lead a moving target with skill shots (which doesn't include predicting where a target will dodge). In other games you'd see splitting marines, clicking on a million buildings to macro them, and aiming that head shot in an FPS.

None of these examples involves actually deciding when to perform these feats or how to create situations in game where they're useful. If your team knows how to click once so that you all show up at drag at the same time, that's mechanical skill. Showing up at drag at the *right* time? Taking the least dangerous path to drag? Those aren't mechanics.

This definition does actually leave LoL with few mechanical challenges compared to other genres of games. LoL has always been about proper decisions rather than mechanics in comparison.
"BE A MANGO TO SLEEP LIKE A SNORING TIGER" - Monte
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
October 16 2012 14:01 GMT
#3750
having better mechanics significantly complements good gamesense, so I would never say that you should ignore your mechanics. I think it's true tho, that good gamesense with poor mechanics will beat poor gamesense with good mechanics for the most part.
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-16 14:05:03
October 16 2012 14:03 GMT
#3751
On October 16 2012 21:43 Promises wrote:
Could you give your definition of mechanics then? I'm confused ^^


Nunu is an example of a champion with little mechanics imo. His teamfight involves keeping the ADC up with W (W's cooldown <= W's duration, so it's always up; no decision involved in when to use it), spam E at high threat target to keep him perm-slowed, and press R when needed. He has no skillshots and he plays his role by pressing his abilities as soon as it is off cooldown.

The only thing that stops him from being completely brain-dead is his passive. However his passive is only meaningful in the early game and it is easy to utilize to perfection while jungling.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Cuddle
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden1345 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-16 14:08:06
October 16 2012 14:07 GMT
#3752
While we're on dodging skill shots...

Is there a point where you have factor the juke/dodge into your skill shot? There's a whole mindgame meta going on and I'm curious of your experience with this.

Do you try to juke skillshots?
Do you try to take juking/dodging into consideration when using a skill shot? (especially if there is only one direction to juke - as in the skillshot is comming from ~90 deg angle and enemy can only chose to continue forward or stop/turn as a juke).
Have you ever not juked a skill shot on purpose because someone is preemptively compensating for your juke?
Have you seen a shift in this meta?

At my level I'm happy if I can land a skill shot aiming at where I think the enemy will be and if he jukes me I say "kudos" and accept it. Every now and then, however, I consider compensating for the juke (or faking the skillshot to lure the juke) but then some enemy just runs right into a straight shot and I dismiss it as "above" our skill.
I try to juke skills flung at me as best I can but I screw up as often as not.

(Ps. I'm not sure if there's a difference in juking and dodging. I'm assuming not above. D.s.)
(Ps2 I think I wrote the word juke to many times. The word lost its meaning... Ds2)
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31494 Posts
October 16 2012 14:14 GMT
#3753
On October 16 2012 23:01 barbsq wrote:
having better mechanics significantly complements good gamesense, so I would never say that you should ignore your mechanics. I think it's true tho, that good gamesense with poor mechanics will beat poor gamesense with good mechanics for the most part.

Not entirely sure I agree with you, Sir Bear.
I would argue that my gamesense is pretty decent (I would say higher than my current elo would let on, but that opens up a whole other elo hell can o' worms, amirite?) but my mechanics are just godawful. I panic in teamfights, misclick and hit the wrong keys constantly (my 5s team yesterday can attest to it) and still tend to miss last hits and such way more often than I should.
Obviously I still make dumb mistakes as I am a bad player overall, but I think a lot of the time my calls ingame are good ones and I don't tend to be caught my obvious baits/gank attempts very often. I feel like if I had good mechanics but crappy gamesense I'd win lane much more often (though get ganked a lot more) and be able to snowball from there more often when the jungler fails to help my laning opponent.

(Disclaimer: I am aware how self-biased this post sounds; it's just how I feel about my own skill level. I don't think I'm good at the game by any means, and I know that any decent player can show just how big of a failure I am at gamesense/mechanics/any aspect of the game I think I'm good at.)
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
Ota Solgryn
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Denmark2011 Posts
October 16 2012 14:17 GMT
#3754
On October 16 2012 23:07 Cuddle wrote:
While we're on dodging skill shots...

Is there a point where you have factor the juke/dodge into your skill shot? There's a whole mindgame meta going on and I'm curious of your experience with this.

Do you try to juke skillshots?
Do you try to take juking/dodging into consideration when using a skill shot? (especially if there is only one direction to juke - as in the skillshot is comming from ~90 deg angle and enemy can only chose to continue forward or stop/turn as a juke).
Have you ever not juked a skill shot on purpose because someone is preemptively compensating for your juke?
Have you seen a shift in this meta?

At my level I'm happy if I can land a skill shot aiming at where I think the enemy will be and if he jukes me I say "kudos" and accept it. Every now and then, however, I consider compensating for the juke (or faking the skillshot to lure the juke) but then some enemy just runs right into a straight shot and I dismiss it as "above" our skill.
I try to juke skills flung at me as best I can but I screw up as often as not.

(Ps. I'm not sure if there's a difference in juking and dodging. I'm assuming not above. D.s.)
(Ps2 I think I wrote the word juke to many times. The word lost its meaning... Ds2)


When I play blitz at 1800-1900 elo I always hook to the juke because here all players always juke and never mindgame me with this (pretending to make a juke and then walking in a straight direction).

The way most people juke is to walk in a J shape or almost U shape sometimes. It is hilarious to grab someone that makes the U shape and then you foresaw this, so your grab actually goes way behind him and then catches him. Looks retarded because it looks like you completely missclicked ur grab, and still grabs him.

I had one game were this Ashe would always just walk straight away from me, not changing direction ever, and I missed literally all my hooks on her in that game. Kept thinking: "this time she will juke!".
ihasaKAROT: "Wish people would stop wasting their lives on finding flaws in others"
Tula
Profile Joined December 2010
Austria1544 Posts
October 16 2012 14:24 GMT
#3755
On October 16 2012 23:17 Ota Solgryn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2012 23:07 Cuddle wrote:
While we're on dodging skill shots...

Is there a point where you have factor the juke/dodge into your skill shot? There's a whole mindgame meta going on and I'm curious of your experience with this.

Do you try to juke skillshots?
Do you try to take juking/dodging into consideration when using a skill shot? (especially if there is only one direction to juke - as in the skillshot is comming from ~90 deg angle and enemy can only chose to continue forward or stop/turn as a juke).
Have you ever not juked a skill shot on purpose because someone is preemptively compensating for your juke?
Have you seen a shift in this meta?

At my level I'm happy if I can land a skill shot aiming at where I think the enemy will be and if he jukes me I say "kudos" and accept it. Every now and then, however, I consider compensating for the juke (or faking the skillshot to lure the juke) but then some enemy just runs right into a straight shot and I dismiss it as "above" our skill.
I try to juke skills flung at me as best I can but I screw up as often as not.

(Ps. I'm not sure if there's a difference in juking and dodging. I'm assuming not above. D.s.)
(Ps2 I think I wrote the word juke to many times. The word lost its meaning... Ds2)


When I play blitz at 1800-1900 elo I always hook to the juke because here all players always juke and never mindgame me with this (pretending to make a juke and then walking in a straight direction).

The way most people juke is to walk in a J shape or almost U shape sometimes. It is hilarious to grab someone that makes the U shape and then you foresaw this, so your grab actually goes way behind him and then catches him. Looks retarded because it looks like you completely missclicked ur grab, and still grabs him.

I had one game were this Ashe would always just walk straight away from me, not changing direction ever, and I missed literally all my hooks on her in that game. Kept thinking: "this time she will juke!".


heck even on my mostly unranked pvps with blitzcrank (1 ranked so far) I'll aim for the juke. Almost every player will try to juke once you have hit him once. So far my observation is that (playing bot) people will nearly always juke in the same direction. They start running straight towards their turret and then juke to the middle of the lane to avoid.

In unranked games I must admit if someone has been caught 3 times because he hasn't juked (or avoided being caught because of it) I'll start aiming straight because they obviously simply dont care.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
October 16 2012 14:26 GMT
#3756
Play Wukong, try to mindgame them with 'S' in lane, always eat all their spells as soon as you do it.
T_T
I try to hard for my Elo with that stuff (but then I press W and all their spells are down, nice too).
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-16 15:00:27
October 16 2012 14:53 GMT
#3757
On October 16 2012 23:14 WaveofShadow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2012 23:01 barbsq wrote:
having better mechanics significantly complements good gamesense, so I would never say that you should ignore your mechanics. I think it's true tho, that good gamesense with poor mechanics will beat poor gamesense with good mechanics for the most part.

Not entirely sure I agree with you, Sir Bear.
I would argue that my gamesense is pretty decent (I would say higher than my current elo would let on, but that opens up a whole other elo hell can o' worms, amirite?) but my mechanics are just godawful. I panic in teamfights, misclick and hit the wrong keys constantly (my 5s team yesterday can attest to it) and still tend to miss last hits and such way more often than I should.
Obviously I still make dumb mistakes as I am a bad player overall, but I think a lot of the time my calls ingame are good ones and I don't tend to be caught my obvious baits/gank attempts very often. I feel like if I had good mechanics but crappy gamesense I'd win lane much more often (though get ganked a lot more) and be able to snowball from there more often when the jungler fails to help my laning opponent.

(Disclaimer: I am aware how self-biased this post sounds; it's just how I feel about my own skill level. I don't think I'm good at the game by any means, and I know that any decent player can show just how big of a failure I am at gamesense/mechanics/any aspect of the game I think I'm good at.)

Idk, i think if there were a player whos gamesense was as poor as your description of mechanics that would be a serious handicap. If there were a player whos skillset were the exact opposite of yours, I feel like i would much rather not have that person. I guess if your mechanics are actively interfering with how you play the game, then your gamesense has to be really damn good to make up for it (i don't have enough experience playing with you to know where you stand). In terms of improvement tho, i guess someone who's mechanically sound just needs someone to tell them what to do, whereas someone who has solid gamesense needs a lot more active practice to be able to get up to par.

edit: to clarify a bit, this kind of person i would imagine constantly face-checking brushes, pushing to tier2 tower without wards, consistently engaging in losing battles (eg 4v5, 3v5, 3v4, etc), but still has decent mechanics and doesn't missclick and hits the majority of skillshots. I feel like that kind of person would be infuriating to play with.
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11547 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-16 15:18:36
October 16 2012 15:17 GMT
#3758
On October 16 2012 23:53 barbsq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2012 23:14 WaveofShadow wrote:
On October 16 2012 23:01 barbsq wrote:
having better mechanics significantly complements good gamesense, so I would never say that you should ignore your mechanics. I think it's true tho, that good gamesense with poor mechanics will beat poor gamesense with good mechanics for the most part.

Not entirely sure I agree with you, Sir Bear.
I would argue that my gamesense is pretty decent (I would say higher than my current elo would let on, but that opens up a whole other elo hell can o' worms, amirite?) but my mechanics are just godawful. I panic in teamfights, misclick and hit the wrong keys constantly (my 5s team yesterday can attest to it) and still tend to miss last hits and such way more often than I should.
Obviously I still make dumb mistakes as I am a bad player overall, but I think a lot of the time my calls ingame are good ones and I don't tend to be caught my obvious baits/gank attempts very often. I feel like if I had good mechanics but crappy gamesense I'd win lane much more often (though get ganked a lot more) and be able to snowball from there more often when the jungler fails to help my laning opponent.

(Disclaimer: I am aware how self-biased this post sounds; it's just how I feel about my own skill level. I don't think I'm good at the game by any means, and I know that any decent player can show just how big of a failure I am at gamesense/mechanics/any aspect of the game I think I'm good at.)

Idk, i think if there were a player whos gamesense was as poor as your description of mechanics that would be a serious handicap. If there were a player whos skillset were the exact opposite of yours, I feel like i would much rather not have that person. I guess if your mechanics are actively interfering with how you play the game, then your gamesense has to be really damn good to make up for it (i don't have enough experience playing with you to know where you stand). In terms of improvement tho, i guess someone who's mechanically sound just needs someone to tell them what to do, whereas someone who has solid gamesense needs a lot more active practice to be able to get up to par.

edit: to clarify a bit, this kind of person i would imagine constantly face-checking brushes, pushing to tier2 tower without wards, consistently engaging in losing battles (eg 4v5, 3v5, 3v4, etc), but still has decent mechanics and doesn't missclick and hits the majority of skillshots. I feel like that kind of person would be infuriating to play with.


The sad thing is, those guys exist on masse. And they will always blame someone else. They engage 4v5, blame the person that is not there. They overextend way too much, blame the guy who "did not call ss". The other extreme is strange, too, because they know what to do, but don't have any money or can't make it work because of a lack of mechanics. Most people are somewhere in between.

Also, i'd say it is exactly the opposite way around. Mechanics are rather easy to practice, gamesense it not. You can only get gamesense by playing lots and lots of games, AND being aware what is going on during all this time. You probably also need to watch a lot of replays, and then remember what you thought at a specific point in game, and if that was right or wrong. And THEN you need to find out if you can generalize that. Sure, someone who play with you and calls all the shots is a bandaid fix, but that does only work as long as that guy is with you. If you want to practice mechanics, just grab someone and 1v1 lane him for a few hours. Most basic mechanics like lasthitting can even be practiced against bots pretty easily.

Also, it is pretty easy to test if your gamesense is actually good. Just play jungle. Jungling is about 90% gamesense, mechanics are largely irrelevant. Especially if you play someone like skarner, who doesn't even have any skillshots.
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
October 16 2012 15:29 GMT
#3759
On October 17 2012 00:17 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2012 23:53 barbsq wrote:
On October 16 2012 23:14 WaveofShadow wrote:
On October 16 2012 23:01 barbsq wrote:
having better mechanics significantly complements good gamesense, so I would never say that you should ignore your mechanics. I think it's true tho, that good gamesense with poor mechanics will beat poor gamesense with good mechanics for the most part.

Not entirely sure I agree with you, Sir Bear.
I would argue that my gamesense is pretty decent (I would say higher than my current elo would let on, but that opens up a whole other elo hell can o' worms, amirite?) but my mechanics are just godawful. I panic in teamfights, misclick and hit the wrong keys constantly (my 5s team yesterday can attest to it) and still tend to miss last hits and such way more often than I should.
Obviously I still make dumb mistakes as I am a bad player overall, but I think a lot of the time my calls ingame are good ones and I don't tend to be caught my obvious baits/gank attempts very often. I feel like if I had good mechanics but crappy gamesense I'd win lane much more often (though get ganked a lot more) and be able to snowball from there more often when the jungler fails to help my laning opponent.

(Disclaimer: I am aware how self-biased this post sounds; it's just how I feel about my own skill level. I don't think I'm good at the game by any means, and I know that any decent player can show just how big of a failure I am at gamesense/mechanics/any aspect of the game I think I'm good at.)

Idk, i think if there were a player whos gamesense was as poor as your description of mechanics that would be a serious handicap. If there were a player whos skillset were the exact opposite of yours, I feel like i would much rather not have that person. I guess if your mechanics are actively interfering with how you play the game, then your gamesense has to be really damn good to make up for it (i don't have enough experience playing with you to know where you stand). In terms of improvement tho, i guess someone who's mechanically sound just needs someone to tell them what to do, whereas someone who has solid gamesense needs a lot more active practice to be able to get up to par.

edit: to clarify a bit, this kind of person i would imagine constantly face-checking brushes, pushing to tier2 tower without wards, consistently engaging in losing battles (eg 4v5, 3v5, 3v4, etc), but still has decent mechanics and doesn't missclick and hits the majority of skillshots. I feel like that kind of person would be infuriating to play with.


The sad thing is, those guys exist on masse. And they will always blame someone else. They engage 4v5, blame the person that is not there. They overextend way too much, blame the guy who "did not call ss". The other extreme is strange, too, because they know what to do, but don't have any money or can't make it work because of a lack of mechanics. Most people are somewhere in between.

Also, i'd say it is exactly the opposite way around. Mechanics are rather easy to practice, gamesense it not. You can only get gamesense by playing lots and lots of games, AND being aware what is going on during all this time. You probably also need to watch a lot of replays, and then remember what you thought at a specific point in game, and if that was right or wrong. And THEN you need to find out if you can generalize that. Sure, someone who play with you and calls all the shots is a bandaid fix, but that does only work as long as that guy is with you. If you want to practice mechanics, just grab someone and 1v1 lane him for a few hours. Most basic mechanics like lasthitting can even be practiced against bots pretty easily.

Also, it is pretty easy to test if your gamesense is actually good. Just play jungle. Jungling is about 90% gamesense, mechanics are largely irrelevant. Especially if you play someone like skarner, who doesn't even have any skillshots.


His E.
Hey! How you doin'?
Sandster
Profile Joined November 2006
United States4054 Posts
October 16 2012 15:30 GMT
#3760
You can tell someone's game sense by their support and jungle play. Just watching how they move around the map and ward will give you a very good idea. (I'm sure everyone's played with that Sona that harasses like a pro but never wards the right area/time or has terrible positioning in lane which forces you to miss cs.) It's amazing to me how some people fail so hard at support but then I realized that many people tend to play the same champs over and over to get good mechanically, but doesn't really understand the game.
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