My opponents had a soloqueue rating of 1792, 1981 and 1643 (in that order) at the time of playing.
I was contemplating posting this in the general Ashe thread, but seeing as it is fairly controversial and so out there I decided to make a new thread. "out there? ashe mid has been known for a long time" - well yes, but not with gp/10s.
This started out as a troll; I was playing ranked 5s and we decided to play 'money ashe'. I would go middle and max my hawkshot, and in botlane we had a TF+Taric lane (TF for his passive, obviously). I would then proceed to build triple gp/10s and just farm my way to 6 items for 'epic lulz'.
I used the following:
My summoners were flash + smite, and I was laning against a Katarina. I would max my hawkshot and steal the enemy big wraith with smite and generally use smite off CD for the extra 10 gold. I opened boots/3, and as I was doing this I noticed that I actually got so much gold that I managed to purchase an infinity edge a little before the 8 minute mark, so I scratched the gp/10s and just build that. I did get a FB, my score was 1-0-0. All the dragons were incredibly easy to secure, midlane was a breeze and we won the game before the 20 minute mark.
So we tried it the next 2 games. Katarina was probably one of the easier match-ups, and this time I was laning against an Ahri. I already tried to legitimize the strategy a bit and swapped my ignite for a cleanse. I actually died two times before level 6 (alistar jungle, fun times...), but still purchased my infinity edge at 10:16 (I only took note of the time I purchased it; not when I actually had the money). I died again upon entering lane because herp derp, I had no lifesteal/ignite and used my cleanse on her charm before she ignited so I barely lost the 1v1, making me 0-3. I purchased a vamp scepter and then actually killed Ahri 2 more times in lane over the course of the game, being only ~10cs behind as soon as laning phase finished. This was actually a pretty easy game as well, despite me derping around a lot early and dying.
The next game I was laning against an Orianna. It was mostly a farm-fest and I got my IE at 8:39, 0-0-0 score. We had an inhib down before 20 mins and they surrendered at 20, I ended up 6-0-2.
This makes me wonder - could this be more than viable? Obviously you wouldn't want to play this against some mid champs, but it seems incredibly strong thus far. You have excellent vision control thanks to hawkshot, you are in the middle of the map so your enchanted crystal arrow can really ruin someone's day and ashe is pretty safe due to her long range.
ashe mid isn't terrible it used to be pretty standard. it's safe and she can farm well there but then the questions that come up are: where does your AP go? who utilizes the blue buff? does ashe benefit more from items or levels, and if not from levels, why solo lane her?
anything is possible with the right amount of teamwork and coordination though, so don't be afraid to try this amongst ranked 5s with teammates. just don't expect a warm welcome if you try it in solo queue
On August 27 2012 11:17 gtrsrs wrote: ashe mid isn't terrible it used to be pretty standard. it's safe and she can farm well there but then the questions that come up are: where does your AP go? who utilizes the blue buff? does ashe benefit more from items or levels, and if not from levels, why solo lane her?
anything is possible with the right amount of teamwork and coordination though, so don't be afraid to try this amongst ranked 5s with teammates. just don't expect a warm welcome if you try it in solo queue
That seems like the interesting crux of it to me, surely you could do a similar thing in bottom lane. It would make for an incredibly passive lane, but bot lane is fairly passive anyway (Junglers tend to avoid it, you've got a support there for the sole purpose of making your CSing life easier). Ashe lanes tend to be fairly passive as is, but if what your saying is correct - CS the first 10 minutes well and you're so far ahead you can do as you please.
The biggest problem with a strat like this is aggressive opponents - if they work out what you're doing and try to take advantage of your slightly weaker earlier game... But this could happen in mid just as easily as in bot, and your more likely to have a jungler gank you.
Doing it in bot would be far less "meta-shifting" and people might be more willing to accept (Or not even notice you're doing anything different), it would be interesting if the success rate was any different in a bot lane with a defensive support.
It's certainly true that Ashe mid is safer now with the farmfest mid lane that is going on these days, but the issues that gtrsrs raise are still relevant. Perhaps running an AP bruiser top with tanky cc jungle/support and double AD (e.g. with Ez which can kite like a god with Ashe lategame + global) could be pretty good though.
I am not convinced that she is even remotely viable in mid. You can do this with Caitlyn and Tristana because they actually have a lot of different tools and escapes.
You cannot actually run my runes and masteries in botlane without getting absolutely shat on. No flat armor seals is a no-go and you'd generally want your quints to be of more direct use as well.
I was not fortunate enough to be around during the time of ashe mid.
I did however play a game against an ashe mid. Unlike regular aps she needs to autoattack to push the wave around. She has good range so she had good harass at early levels from autoattacks and her W. When I hit 6 though, even though I ran teleport, I could either kill or force her out of lane every time she showed her face.
The way mid works nowadays is both sides are super safe because they can push the lane without staying overextended for long periods or having to run up to autoattack. Overextending oneself every time one needs to harass makes you prone to ganks. At least run an AD carry with an escape. Otherwise I'll just freeze the lane at my tower and you can't cs without dying to ganks.
I'm convinced ashe mid is not viable.
I'm ignoring that in solo queue your team might whine about ashe mid and work around not having an AP carry mid to make sure they still have a magic damage threat to keep the enemies true and prevent them from stacking armor.
Considering that in fights after a certain point, ap mids just are made to burst down squishy AD champions, unless you run a lot of sustain and MR and life, ashe won't even be able to lane against APs.
On August 27 2012 11:17 gtrsrs wrote: ashe mid isn't terrible it used to be pretty standard. it's safe and she can farm well there but then the questions that come up are: where does your AP go? who utilizes the blue buff? does ashe benefit more from items or levels, and if not from levels, why solo lane her?
anything is possible with the right amount of teamwork and coordination though, so don't be afraid to try this amongst ranked 5s with teammates. just don't expect a warm welcome if you try it in solo queue
You could have Vlad top, or Rumble, or an AP jungler such as Amumu. The blue buff could just go to the jungler, being actually a jungler myself I can ensure you that a free 2nd (and maybe 3rd) blue is extremely welcome.
Ashe does kind of benefit from levels - especially at level 6 you can use your ulti on lanes, and you being in the middle makes it easier compared to you being in bot. You are also closer to minor objectives such as buffs, where you can ulti, hawkshot for vision and so forth.
The reason you solo lane her is because her defenses in midlane will generally come from glyphs - magic resist. In bot, you really, really need armor seals. This frees up your seals --> gp/10.
have you done the math on gp10 seals though? they're kind of bad and not as valuable as armor seals until like 19 minutes into the game or something ridiculous like that.
There's also this gimmick with ashe where you run teleport on ashe, put a ward in middle, then reach level 6 and let your enemy push a bit. Fire your arrow and tele in so that you arrive in time to reach them as they're stunned and get a kill on them. I'm not sure if this trick is reliable enough to let you win lane.
If it is then ashe mid is viable. Just running AD carries against AP carries is usually pretty dangerous. There's a lot of other gimmicky crap in the game. As shaco, if your enemy jungler is a blue starter, you can rush their red and then head to their wraiths. Then you just set up traps in the brush to wraiths and wait for them. 60% of the time it always nets first blood and set the enemy jungler behind. I'm not sure if this trick is still possible with the boxes nerf.
The point is many things are viable in solo queue. I personally think kill lanes tend to be stronger than ad carry support in bot lane. I just don't think ashe mid will fly in tournament games.
On August 27 2012 11:51 obesechicken13 wrote: There's also this gimmick with ashe where you run teleport on ashe, put a ward in middle, then reach level 6 and let your enemy push a bit. Fire your arrow and tele in so that you arrive in time to reach them as they're stunned and get a kill on them. I'm not sure if this trick is reliable enough to let you win lane.
If it is then ashe mid is viable. Just running AD carries against AP carries is usually pretty dangerous. There's a lot of other gimmicky crap in the game. As shaco, if your enemy jungler is a blue starter, you can rush their red and then head to their wraiths. Then you just set up traps in the brush to wraiths and wait for them. 60% of the time it always nets first blood and set the enemy jungler behind. I'm not sure if this trick is still possible with the boxes nerf.
The point is many things are viable in solo queue. I personally think kill lanes tend to be stronger than ad carry support in bot lane. I just don't think ashe mid will fly in tournament games.
On August 27 2012 11:51 obesechicken13 wrote: There's also this gimmick with ashe where you run teleport on ashe, put a ward in middle, then reach level 6 and let your enemy push a bit. Fire your arrow and tele in so that you arrive in time to reach them as they're stunned and get a kill on them. I'm not sure if this trick is reliable enough to let you win lane.
If it is then ashe mid is viable. Just running AD carries against AP carries is usually pretty dangerous. There's a lot of other gimmicky crap in the game. As shaco, if your enemy jungler is a blue starter, you can rush your own blue and then head to their wraiths. Then you just set up traps in the brush to wraiths and wait for them. 60% of the time it always nets first blood and set the enemy jungler behind. I'm not sure if this trick is still possible with the boxes nerf.
The point is many things are viable in solo queue. I personally think kill lanes tend to be stronger than ad carry support in bot lane. I just don't think ashe mid will fly in tournament games.
It depends on the AP carry, and Ashe with blue or levels + philo can just volley clear waves npnp. I'm more open to this idea on 5s, and I think it will be viable if you run a kite team with initiation/diving possibilities (after Ashe arrow), which will have a monstrous lategame with double AD (e.g. Ashe + Ez/Kog/Vayne/Trist which all benefit hugely from the Ashe slow).
The huge weakness of Ashe mid imo comes from easy counter-picking and lack of presence in other lanes apart from random arrows, but I really like where the OP is going since the meta is trending towards a farmfest mid-lane and a farmed up AD carry is arguably more dangerous than a farmed up AP carry given sufficient protection.
Initially I thought you'd be playing AP ashe, but I guess its just sort of a lane switch or double AD carry?
I like the idea and many ideas seem to make sense, but it seems you'd need pretty pro last hitting to keep close in CS against a decent opponent. It seems like a build that just needs better mechanics than a lot of people have-- CS without items, -1 summoner spell and taking advantage of Ashe's AA range advantage a lot.
I'll give this a go though and see how it works. I'll probably flub it terribad, haha.
Far as mana goes, well, you could give it to someone else for easier leveling or is mana hungry. I don't think its a big deal if Ashe just doesn't take it. I like how solo Ashe gets her towards "lategame" where she's good faster too.
On August 27 2012 11:51 obesechicken13 wrote: There's also this gimmick with ashe where you run teleport on ashe, put a ward in middle, then reach level 6 and let your enemy push a bit. Fire your arrow and tele in so that you arrive in time to reach them as they're stunned and get a kill on them. I'm not sure if this trick is reliable enough to let you win lane.
If it is then ashe mid is viable. Just running AD carries against AP carries is usually pretty dangerous. There's a lot of other gimmicky crap in the game. As shaco, if your enemy jungler is a blue starter, you can rush your own blue and then head to their wraiths. Then you just set up traps in the brush to wraiths and wait for them. 60% of the time it always nets first blood and set the enemy jungler behind. I'm not sure if this trick is still possible with the boxes nerf.
The point is many things are viable in solo queue. I personally think kill lanes tend to be stronger than ad carry support in bot lane. I just don't think ashe mid will fly in tournament games.
It depends on the AP carry, and Ashe with blue or levels + philo can just volley clear waves npnp. I'm more open to this idea on 5s, and I think it will be viable if you run a kite team with initiation/diving possibilities (after Ashe arrow), which will have a monstrous lategame with double AD (e.g. Ashe + Ez/Kog/Vayne/Trist which all benefit hugely from the Ashe slow).
The huge weakness of Ashe mid imo comes from easy counter-picking and lack of presence in other lanes apart from random arrows, but I really like where the OP is going since the meta is trending towards a farmfest mid-lane and a farmed up AD carry is arguably more dangerous than a farmed up AP carry given sufficient protection.
I don't think ashe can instaclear. At max rank ashe's W does 80 damage + 1 ad. That's about 3 volleys if I'm not mistaken to clear the ranged creeps. It's pretty cheap at 60 mana. I don't know where you've seen an ashe instaclear a wave even late game. And blue buff isn't infinite mana. I think someone mentioned it's around 25mp5 for people with higher mana pools than ashe. Add on that these people get doran's ring and have harder hitting spells, ashe is not instaclearing waves.
Are you advocating having two AD carries on your team? Like just ignore having an AP carry? You can do that, it's just that each class generally brings a lot to the team. The AP carries bring magic damage, burst, and clearing/pushing power as well as really strong cc that isn't conditional on it hitting from far away to stun for a long time.
Again I have not tried Ashe in arranged 5s for any period of time. I'm just pointing out flaws that I see that may arise when you try it.
Just because the meta is heading towards instaclears does not mean your opponent has to instaclear if they see ashe mid.
On August 27 2012 11:51 obesechicken13 wrote: There's also this gimmick with ashe where you run teleport on ashe, put a ward in middle, then reach level 6 and let your enemy push a bit. Fire your arrow and tele in so that you arrive in time to reach them as they're stunned and get a kill on them. I'm not sure if this trick is reliable enough to let you win lane.
If it is then ashe mid is viable. Just running AD carries against AP carries is usually pretty dangerous. There's a lot of other gimmicky crap in the game. As shaco, if your enemy jungler is a blue starter, you can rush your own blue and then head to their wraiths. Then you just set up traps in the brush to wraiths and wait for them. 60% of the time it always nets first blood and set the enemy jungler behind. I'm not sure if this trick is still possible with the boxes nerf.
The point is many things are viable in solo queue. I personally think kill lanes tend to be stronger than ad carry support in bot lane. I just don't think ashe mid will fly in tournament games.
It depends on the AP carry, and Ashe with blue or levels + philo can just volley clear waves npnp. I'm more open to this idea on 5s, and I think it will be viable if you run a kite team with initiation/diving possibilities (after Ashe arrow), which will have a monstrous lategame with double AD (e.g. Ashe + Ez/Kog/Vayne/Trist which all benefit hugely from the Ashe slow).
The huge weakness of Ashe mid imo comes from easy counter-picking and lack of presence in other lanes apart from random arrows, but I really like where the OP is going since the meta is trending towards a farmfest mid-lane and a farmed up AD carry is arguably more dangerous than a farmed up AP carry given sufficient protection.
I don't think ashe can instaclear. At max rank ashe's W does 80 damage + 1 ad. That's about 3 volleys if I'm not mistaken to clear the ranged creeps. It's pretty cheap at 60 mana. I don't know where you've seen an ashe instaclear a wave even late game. And blue buff isn't infinite mana. I think someone mentioned it's around 25mp5 for people with higher mana pools than ashe. Add on that these people get doran's ring and have harder hitting spells, ashe is not instaclearing waves.
Are you advocating having two AD carries on your team? Like just ignore having an AP carry? You can do that, it's just that each class generally brings a lot to the team. The AP carries bring magic damage, burst, and clearing/pushing power as well as really strong cc that isn't conditional on it hitting from far away to stun for a long time.
Again I have not tried Ashe in arranged 5s for any period of time. I'm just pointing out flaws that I see that may arise when you try it.
Run some mage like cass soraka something bottom, as your AP
On August 27 2012 11:51 obesechicken13 wrote: There's also this gimmick with ashe where you run teleport on ashe, put a ward in middle, then reach level 6 and let your enemy push a bit. Fire your arrow and tele in so that you arrive in time to reach them as they're stunned and get a kill on them. I'm not sure if this trick is reliable enough to let you win lane.
If it is then ashe mid is viable. Just running AD carries against AP carries is usually pretty dangerous. There's a lot of other gimmicky crap in the game. As shaco, if your enemy jungler is a blue starter, you can rush your own blue and then head to their wraiths. Then you just set up traps in the brush to wraiths and wait for them. 60% of the time it always nets first blood and set the enemy jungler behind. I'm not sure if this trick is still possible with the boxes nerf.
The point is many things are viable in solo queue. I personally think kill lanes tend to be stronger than ad carry support in bot lane. I just don't think ashe mid will fly in tournament games.
It depends on the AP carry, and Ashe with blue or levels + philo can just volley clear waves npnp. I'm more open to this idea on 5s, and I think it will be viable if you run a kite team with initiation/diving possibilities (after Ashe arrow), which will have a monstrous lategame with double AD (e.g. Ashe + Ez/Kog/Vayne/Trist which all benefit hugely from the Ashe slow).
The huge weakness of Ashe mid imo comes from easy counter-picking and lack of presence in other lanes apart from random arrows, but I really like where the OP is going since the meta is trending towards a farmfest mid-lane and a farmed up AD carry is arguably more dangerous than a farmed up AP carry given sufficient protection.
I don't think ashe can instaclear. At max rank ashe's W does 80 damage + 1 ad. That's about 3 volleys if I'm not mistaken to clear the ranged creeps. It's pretty cheap at 60 mana. I don't know where you've seen an ashe instaclear a wave even late game. And blue buff isn't infinite mana. I think someone mentioned it's around 25mp5 for people with higher mana pools than ashe. Add on that these people get doran's ring and have harder hitting spells, ashe is not instaclearing waves.
Are you advocating having two AD carries on your team? Like just ignore having an AP carry? You can do that, it's just that each class generally brings a lot to the team. The AP carries bring magic damage, burst, and clearing/pushing power as well as really strong cc that isn't conditional on it hitting from far away to stun for a long time.
Again I have not tried Ashe in arranged 5s for any period of time. I'm just pointing out flaws that I see that may arise when you try it.
You could run an AP top or have an AP jungler such as Amumu. An example would be Vlad top + Amumu jungle, you'd have your aoe and cc covered. Ashe has an arrow and a pretty long range slow, so it's not like she has zero cc. Bottom can just be as normal as it gets - have a random ad and a random supp and you're good to go.
The big question seems to be whether you gain anything from having greed!Ashe in mid rather than bot. The suggestions so far have been to run a champ like TF or Ez in bot lane, but both of those would be better in mid than Ashe is, whether you're going for this money build on her or not.
On August 27 2012 11:51 obesechicken13 wrote: There's also this gimmick with ashe where you run teleport on ashe, put a ward in middle, then reach level 6 and let your enemy push a bit. Fire your arrow and tele in so that you arrive in time to reach them as they're stunned and get a kill on them. I'm not sure if this trick is reliable enough to let you win lane.
If it is then ashe mid is viable. Just running AD carries against AP carries is usually pretty dangerous. There's a lot of other gimmicky crap in the game. As shaco, if your enemy jungler is a blue starter, you can rush your own blue and then head to their wraiths. Then you just set up traps in the brush to wraiths and wait for them. 60% of the time it always nets first blood and set the enemy jungler behind. I'm not sure if this trick is still possible with the boxes nerf.
The point is many things are viable in solo queue. I personally think kill lanes tend to be stronger than ad carry support in bot lane. I just don't think ashe mid will fly in tournament games.
It depends on the AP carry, and Ashe with blue or levels + philo can just volley clear waves npnp. I'm more open to this idea on 5s, and I think it will be viable if you run a kite team with initiation/diving possibilities (after Ashe arrow), which will have a monstrous lategame with double AD (e.g. Ashe + Ez/Kog/Vayne/Trist which all benefit hugely from the Ashe slow).
The huge weakness of Ashe mid imo comes from easy counter-picking and lack of presence in other lanes apart from random arrows, but I really like where the OP is going since the meta is trending towards a farmfest mid-lane and a farmed up AD carry is arguably more dangerous than a farmed up AP carry given sufficient protection.
I don't think ashe can instaclear. At max rank ashe's W does 80 damage + 1 ad. That's about 3 volleys if I'm not mistaken to clear the ranged creeps. It's pretty cheap at 60 mana. I don't know where you've seen an ashe instaclear a wave even late game. And blue buff isn't infinite mana. I think someone mentioned it's around 25mp5 for people with higher mana pools than ashe. Add on that these people get doran's ring and have harder hitting spells, ashe is not instaclearing waves.
Are you advocating having two AD carries on your team? Like just ignore having an AP carry? You can do that, it's just that each class generally brings a lot to the team. The AP carries bring magic damage, burst, and clearing/pushing power as well as really strong cc that isn't conditional on it hitting from far away to stun for a long time.
Again I have not tried Ashe in arranged 5s for any period of time. I'm just pointing out flaws that I see that may arise when you try it.
Run some mage like cass soraka something bottom, as your AP
I don't think this has been mentioned but a big reason why AP's are run mid is because they gain more from levels than AD's do. When you run Cass bot she gets the same cs as she would mid, she just gets less experience since her support gets half of it.
On August 27 2012 11:51 obesechicken13 wrote: There's also this gimmick with ashe where you run teleport on ashe, put a ward in middle, then reach level 6 and let your enemy push a bit. Fire your arrow and tele in so that you arrive in time to reach them as they're stunned and get a kill on them. I'm not sure if this trick is reliable enough to let you win lane.
If it is then ashe mid is viable. Just running AD carries against AP carries is usually pretty dangerous. There's a lot of other gimmicky crap in the game. As shaco, if your enemy jungler is a blue starter, you can rush your own blue and then head to their wraiths. Then you just set up traps in the brush to wraiths and wait for them. 60% of the time it always nets first blood and set the enemy jungler behind. I'm not sure if this trick is still possible with the boxes nerf.
The point is many things are viable in solo queue. I personally think kill lanes tend to be stronger than ad carry support in bot lane. I just don't think ashe mid will fly in tournament games.
It depends on the AP carry, and Ashe with blue or levels + philo can just volley clear waves npnp. I'm more open to this idea on 5s, and I think it will be viable if you run a kite team with initiation/diving possibilities (after Ashe arrow), which will have a monstrous lategame with double AD (e.g. Ashe + Ez/Kog/Vayne/Trist which all benefit hugely from the Ashe slow).
The huge weakness of Ashe mid imo comes from easy counter-picking and lack of presence in other lanes apart from random arrows, but I really like where the OP is going since the meta is trending towards a farmfest mid-lane and a farmed up AD carry is arguably more dangerous than a farmed up AP carry given sufficient protection.
I don't think ashe can instaclear. At max rank ashe's W does 80 damage + 1 ad. That's about 3 volleys if I'm not mistaken to clear the ranged creeps. It's pretty cheap at 60 mana. I don't know where you've seen an ashe instaclear a wave even late game. And blue buff isn't infinite mana. I think someone mentioned it's around 25mp5 for people with higher mana pools than ashe. Add on that these people get doran's ring and have harder hitting spells, ashe is not instaclearing waves.
Are you advocating having two AD carries on your team? Like just ignore having an AP carry? You can do that, it's just that each class generally brings a lot to the team. The AP carries bring magic damage, burst, and clearing/pushing power as well as really strong cc that isn't conditional on it hitting from far away to stun for a long time.
Again I have not tried Ashe in arranged 5s for any period of time. I'm just pointing out flaws that I see that may arise when you try it.
You could run an AP top or have an AP jungler such as Amumu. An example would be Vlad top + Amumu jungle, you'd have your aoe and cc covered. Ashe has an arrow and a pretty long range slow, so it's not like she has zero cc. Bottom can just be as normal as it gets - have a random ad and a random supp and you're good to go.
I think you run into the same problem as I mentioned earlier except now instead of not having an AP mid you don't have a bruiser since you ran an AP top. As much as people shit on bruisers in GD, having someone that can tank towers, dragons, and barons decently well, as well as being able to survive an AP carry's burst and have the damage to kill them is really good.
This discussion has reached an end. You guys are no longer discussing why you should run ashe mid. You're just trying to find ways to do it. If you're so intent on running ashe mid then do it. Try it in a few more arranged 5's. If you do well then report back.
On August 27 2012 11:51 obesechicken13 wrote: There's also this gimmick with ashe where you run teleport on ashe, put a ward in middle, then reach level 6 and let your enemy push a bit. Fire your arrow and tele in so that you arrive in time to reach them as they're stunned and get a kill on them. I'm not sure if this trick is reliable enough to let you win lane.
If it is then ashe mid is viable. Just running AD carries against AP carries is usually pretty dangerous. There's a lot of other gimmicky crap in the game. As shaco, if your enemy jungler is a blue starter, you can rush your own blue and then head to their wraiths. Then you just set up traps in the brush to wraiths and wait for them. 60% of the time it always nets first blood and set the enemy jungler behind. I'm not sure if this trick is still possible with the boxes nerf.
The point is many things are viable in solo queue. I personally think kill lanes tend to be stronger than ad carry support in bot lane. I just don't think ashe mid will fly in tournament games.
It depends on the AP carry, and Ashe with blue or levels + philo can just volley clear waves npnp. I'm more open to this idea on 5s, and I think it will be viable if you run a kite team with initiation/diving possibilities (after Ashe arrow), which will have a monstrous lategame with double AD (e.g. Ashe + Ez/Kog/Vayne/Trist which all benefit hugely from the Ashe slow).
The huge weakness of Ashe mid imo comes from easy counter-picking and lack of presence in other lanes apart from random arrows, but I really like where the OP is going since the meta is trending towards a farmfest mid-lane and a farmed up AD carry is arguably more dangerous than a farmed up AP carry given sufficient protection.
I don't think ashe can instaclear. At max rank ashe's W does 80 damage + 1 ad. That's about 3 volleys if I'm not mistaken to clear the ranged creeps. It's pretty cheap at 60 mana. I don't know where you've seen an ashe instaclear a wave even late game. And blue buff isn't infinite mana. I think someone mentioned it's around 25mp5 for people with higher mana pools than ashe. Add on that these people get doran's ring and have harder hitting spells, ashe is not instaclearing waves.
Are you advocating having two AD carries on your team? Like just ignore having an AP carry? You can do that, it's just that each class generally brings a lot to the team. The AP carries bring magic damage, burst, and clearing/pushing power as well as really strong cc that isn't conditional on it hitting from far away to stun for a long time.
Again I have not tried Ashe in arranged 5s for any period of time. I'm just pointing out flaws that I see that may arise when you try it.
Run some mage like cass soraka something bottom, as your AP
It's already been tried to death. AP duo is horrible and Ashe is easy as fuck to kill mid. Any mage with a little burst can flash 1 shot her every 5 minutes. It's not like she is ever going to get away or turn and burst you back.
There's no moving your AP carry out of mid. You only get an AD solo (top) by going double AD with a tank support and tank jungler.
Even if you work your team to have an AD mid, Ashe is probably among the absolute worst to put there because she has none of the tools you want for mid. She can't survive against burst, she has no escapes against ganks or aggressive, she has no burst to threaten with.
If you try to do something like Kennen top and no other AP source your going to find teams just laugh at you and have an easy time itemizing.
I am not convinced Ashe can solo lane. She has no escape out of Flash (and slows are useless against the million gap closers now-a-days) and she has the lowest defensive base stats out of all AD Carries apart from Vayne. You're going to get all-in'd by someone or repeatedly ganked and die.
With a rune set up like that I can't see how you survive against most AP Mids. Even a low level Ryze or Gragas is going to walk up to you and chunk a large portion of your hp with a single Q. You die way too fast to burst. Someone like Cassi is going to laugh at you and then all-in and kill you at level 2. Either that or you get zoned off the creep wave forever. You're going to need a lot of babysitting by the jungler which gives up pressure on everything else on the map.
You also have really low base AD so you're not very threatening outside of the initial crit. You really need Dorans to last hit under tower too so just pushing the wave to your tower is viable against you and then you're stuck last hitting while the other AP mid roams.
In a casual setting, sure anything goes. But in a more serious level of play I don't see how you survive instead of rolling over and dying every time someone like Nyaahri looks at you funny.
Recently saw an MLG prize fight with I think Legion vs TSM. Legion put an AD ezrael mid vs Regi's morgana, the ez had a ton of armor pen runes. It completely shut Regi down in mid.
On August 27 2012 11:51 obesechicken13 wrote: There's also this gimmick with ashe where you run teleport on ashe, put a ward in middle, then reach level 6 and let your enemy push a bit. Fire your arrow and tele in so that you arrive in time to reach them as they're stunned and get a kill on them. I'm not sure if this trick is reliable enough to let you win lane.
If it is then ashe mid is viable. Just running AD carries against AP carries is usually pretty dangerous. There's a lot of other gimmicky crap in the game. As shaco, if your enemy jungler is a blue starter, you can rush your own blue and then head to their wraiths. Then you just set up traps in the brush to wraiths and wait for them. 60% of the time it always nets first blood and set the enemy jungler behind. I'm not sure if this trick is still possible with the boxes nerf.
The point is many things are viable in solo queue. I personally think kill lanes tend to be stronger than ad carry support in bot lane. I just don't think ashe mid will fly in tournament games.
It depends on the AP carry, and Ashe with blue or levels + philo can just volley clear waves npnp. I'm more open to this idea on 5s, and I think it will be viable if you run a kite team with initiation/diving possibilities (after Ashe arrow), which will have a monstrous lategame with double AD (e.g. Ashe + Ez/Kog/Vayne/Trist which all benefit hugely from the Ashe slow).
The huge weakness of Ashe mid imo comes from easy counter-picking and lack of presence in other lanes apart from random arrows, but I really like where the OP is going since the meta is trending towards a farmfest mid-lane and a farmed up AD carry is arguably more dangerous than a farmed up AP carry given sufficient protection.
I don't think ashe can instaclear. At max rank ashe's W does 80 damage + 1 ad. That's about 3 volleys if I'm not mistaken to clear the ranged creeps. It's pretty cheap at 60 mana. I don't know where you've seen an ashe instaclear a wave even late game. And blue buff isn't infinite mana. I think someone mentioned it's around 25mp5 for people with higher mana pools than ashe. Add on that these people get doran's ring and have harder hitting spells, ashe is not instaclearing waves.
Are you advocating having two AD carries on your team? Like just ignore having an AP carry? You can do that, it's just that each class generally brings a lot to the team. The AP carries bring magic damage, burst, and clearing/pushing power as well as really strong cc that isn't conditional on it hitting from far away to stun for a long time.
Again I have not tried Ashe in arranged 5s for any period of time. I'm just pointing out flaws that I see that may arise when you try it.
Run some mage like cass soraka something bottom, as your AP
Cass 1v2 lane? She will die horribly.
Not 1v2. Cass + Soraka in 2v2 lane. I used to see this as Malzahar + Soraka bottom lane and Ashe/Cait mid. There was also some variation of dual AD where you would put the 2v2 lane mid and a second AD top.
I think that's kind of a niche case where you can abuse Morgana's laning. It's not as good as its cracked up to be, especially against low cd repositioners.
Think of the possibilities if you displace the ap mid. I think the main reasons you throw an ap mid is because: - they tend to be squishy, mid lane is shorter, safer - they tend to want to roam to help gank top/ bottom/ help versus invades
If you build a teamcomp where you put an ad, ad + support mid, suddenly the ap either has a lack of farm or the ap needs to switch top or bottom. I do think that the ad you put mid has to have either a bursty quality, like ez - or massive sustain, like how alex ich used to play trynd mid before the heal nerf.
On August 27 2012 15:09 yenta wrote: Recently saw an MLG prize fight with I think Legion vs TSM. Legion put an AD ezrael mid vs Regi's morgana, the ez had a ton of armor pen runes. It completely shut Regi down in mid.
That's a very different case from Ashe. Ezrael is a single-target duelist with good mobility - he's great in a solo lane.
On August 27 2012 13:46 Craton wrote: There's no moving your AP carry out of mid. You only get an AD solo (top) by going double AD with a tank support and tank jungler.
Even if you work your team to have an AD mid, Ashe is probably among the absolute worst to put there because she has none of the tools you want for mid. She can't survive against burst, she has no escapes against ganks or aggressive, she has no burst to threaten with.
If you try to do something like Kennen top and no other AP source your going to find teams just laugh at you and have an easy time itemizing.
I allways thought that mid champs are the ones who can control areas well (hawkshot, W, arrow). can gank well (arrow, slow) and can push decently (W). I think ashe works pretty well mid. ap carries tend to be weaker from lvl 1-2 than ad carries, and arrow is probably the best gank-assist/ganking tool which is not utilized as fully bottom as it is mid. The problem is that there are alot of champions who do very well against ad carries including ashe. I think gragas for example.
and the other problem is that ppl are too stupid to not play the same strategy all the time in soloq.
On August 27 2012 12:56 zulu_nation8 wrote: theres a bunch of reasons ADs get the babysit lane and APs get the solo
What I hear all the time is the argument that adc scales with gold and not levels, apc scales with gold and levels. But the newer ad carries, and with changes to the type of damage on the abilities of some adc... I'm just looking at Graves, his abilities scale with his levels because of his itemization. Graves mid op
On August 27 2012 12:56 zulu_nation8 wrote: theres a bunch of reasons ADs get the babysit lane and APs get the solo
What I hear all the time is the argument that adc scales with gold and not levels, apc scales with gold and levels. But the newer ad carries, and with changes to the type of damage on the abilities of some adc... I'm just looking at Graves, his abilities scale with his levels because of his itemization. Graves mid op
Problematic because you have to push lane to trade with Graves, easier to camp mid and get free kills compared to bot, esp. with the higher burst on the other side from the ap carry so graves will probably die a lot to jungle pressure.
On August 27 2012 11:28 1ntrigue wrote: It's certainly true that Ashe mid is safer now with the farmfest mid lane that is going on these days, but the issues that gtrsrs raise are still relevant. Perhaps running an AP bruiser top with tanky cc jungle/support and double AD (e.g. with Ez which can kite like a god with Ashe lategame + global) could be pretty good though.
Double AD bottom is bad, its better if one AD goes in jungle and the tanky cc babysits adc bottom
On August 27 2012 12:56 zulu_nation8 wrote: theres a bunch of reasons ADs get the babysit lane and APs get the solo
What I hear all the time is the argument that adc scales with gold and not levels, apc scales with gold and levels. But the newer ad carries, and with changes to the type of damage on the abilities of some adc... I'm just looking at Graves, his abilities scale with his levels because of his itemization. Graves mid op
Problematic because you have to push lane to trade with Graves, easier to camp mid and get free kills compared to bot, esp. with the higher burst on the other side from the ap carry so graves will probably die a lot to jungle pressure.
Quite a few aps push lane to trade; this is not such a big problem. Graves is, when keeping his passive up, a ton tankier then most ap mids; so he can survive allins better. Graves also has smokescreen & quickdraw for escaping while buckshot & collateral damage give him strong burst. However a commonly shared characteristic on high tier ap mids is that they can waveclear fast. This gives them some huge advantages over champs that cannot clear (as) fast. Firstly it drastically shortens the window in which they are exposed to ganks in midlane. It also forces the other champ to stay put or miss out on farm. Thirdly it opens huge windows (can be 40 sec+) in which roaming/jungle farming can take place without missing the main mid farm.
Ad carries do just fine mid, even though ashe is one of the weakest, she can still rape some champs like akali. Try draven, graves, vayne, urgot or caitlyn. Gold per 10 quints is really a waste on any laner that isnt a support though. You should also be maximizing damage with your masteries/runes.
On August 27 2012 22:24 Cloud wrote: Ad carries do just fine mid, even though ashe is one of the weakest, she can still rape some champs like akali. Try draven, graves, vayne, urgot or caitlyn. Gold per 10 quints is really a waste on any laner that isnt a support though. You should also be maximizing damage with your masteries/runes.
Really? Even if Akali gets 0 CS by level 6 she can still easily rape an Ashe by going all in.
I actually think ADs mid can be quite nice. Might actually get a bit more popular again. For example Moopz often plays it now in solo q (corki) I can see some others working aswell, the main problem is how to get your aps in that setupd (bot or top both might work)
For masteries etc obviously standart and not 3 g/10 thats not good. Enough calculation showed that its horrible and esp for midlane if you cannot push you should never do that else you get outpushed. Maxing hawkshot on Ashe is terrible aswell (what you could do is put 1-3 points into it instead of your Frostshot to get some more gold and range on the "CV" which is not to be underestimated)
Edit:
Problematic because you have to push lane to trade with Graves, easier to camp mid and get free kills compared to bot, esp. with the higher burst on the other side from the ap carry so graves will probably die a lot to jungle pressure.
wtf? midlane atm is pretty much perma push lane you push -> wraiths (or wolves) -> keep pushing the problem with AD carries might be that they push not fast enough not that they push too fast.
If any AD can go mid, it's ezreal. And he's only good there to fuck up their ap. I have tried ez mid with ori raka bot which works pretty well. Raka goes with almost ap bot though lol.
On August 28 2012 03:58 wussleeQ wrote: If any AD can go mid, it's ezreal. And he's only good there to fuck up their ap. I have tried ez mid with ori raka bot which works pretty well. Raka goes with almost ap bot though lol.
On August 27 2012 22:24 Cloud wrote: Ad carries do just fine mid, even though ashe is one of the weakest, she can still rape some champs like akali. Try draven, graves, vayne, urgot or caitlyn. Gold per 10 quints is really a waste on any laner that isnt a support though. You should also be maximizing damage with your masteries/runes.
as a heavy kassadin player, AD mids really deny a typical kassadin really hard. From my experience, the only way to recover is by jungler help (even then it's still hard, need at least 2 kills) or if the tower isn't pushed/heavily damaged. Having the threat of not being able to leave lane due to losing the tower/map control and not being able to farm really hurts him in team fights.
On August 27 2012 22:24 Cloud wrote: Ad carries do just fine mid, even though ashe is one of the weakest, she can still rape some champs like akali. Try draven, graves, vayne, urgot or caitlyn. Gold per 10 quints is really a waste on any laner that isnt a support though. You should also be maximizing damage with your masteries/runes.
Really? Even if Akali gets 0 CS by level 6 she can still easily rape an Ashe by going all in.
I'd like you to try 0 cs akali level 6 vs 40 cs ashe level 8.
AD mid was viable, but then people started found out AP's scale better through levels than most ADs and that an AD was too squishy to take on a heavy burst AP champion, such as Akali (as stated above).
On August 28 2012 09:55 Craton wrote: Level 6 Akali would probably still gib a level 8 Ashe.
But Akali would be getting farm either way and damn sure wouldn't be 2 levels behind. Assassins crush AD carries.
I've played the match up a couple of times and there's no way in hell akali beats ashe without jungler help.
What happens is this, you get zoned from the get go because akali isnt an assassin early on, she is a shitty melee champion with a crappy harass and no gap closer who doesn't want to get armor early on and gets completely raped levels 1-5. Now when you get to level 6, you're not exactly annie, you still have to wait about 50 seconds for your 3 charges of your ult to be up and by that time the ashe is at least a level ahead with 2 dblades to your boots + pots and have fun trying to burst that down because if you don't there's no way her slows and stun are gonna let you go alive. Not to mention that throughout the entire laning phase she supports jungle ganks better than you do.
Ad carries do pretty damn well in solo lanes against anyone, assassins or not, Kassadin still counts as an assassin right? Why does he get so crushed by ad carries then?
On August 28 2012 16:13 O-ops wrote: Does the Akali you play against never use her w or something? Cuz if you're gettting the impression that she gets raped 1-5 something is wrong lol.
It's not gonna last forever, and it's got a long cooldown. I'd say its perfectly practical to zone her out completely lvl 1-5 with ashe, granted she'll salvage what farm she can when shrouds up, but tahts about it
On August 28 2012 16:13 O-ops wrote: Does the Akali you play against never use her w or something? Cuz if you're gettting the impression that she gets raped 1-5 something is wrong lol.
It's not gonna last forever, and it's got a long cooldown. I'd say its perfectly practical to zone her out completely lvl 1-5 with ashe, granted she'll salvage what farm she can when shrouds up, but tahts about it
Thats why you play Diana, clear whole wave with Q, never miss CS, then clear whole Ashe.
On August 28 2012 16:13 O-ops wrote: Does the Akali you play against never use her w or something? Cuz if you're gettting the impression that she gets raped 1-5 something is wrong lol.
It's not gonna last forever, and it's got a long cooldown. I'd say its perfectly practical to zone her out completely lvl 1-5 with ashe, granted she'll salvage what farm she can when shrouds up, but tahts about it
Log cooldown you mean 20 seconds. You use it once per minion wave, which is every 30 seconds. Good enough if you ask me.
On August 28 2012 06:07 Garhf wrote: as a heavy kassadin player, AD mids really deny a typical kassadin really hard. From my experience, the only way to recover is by jungler help (even then it's still hard, need at least 2 kills) or if the tower isn't pushed/heavily damaged. Having the threat of not being able to leave lane due to losing the tower/map control and not being able to farm really hurts him in team fights.
That's because it's Kassadin. His burst is really sad.
Some AD carrys can be okay mid, NyJacky just dominated a game with mid ad trist at MLG this weekend. But ashe... I don't really see it happen at high level.
its pretty simple. Ashe mid gp/10 style can work at mid to low ELO no problem in fact ive seen it done twice already this season with it going 2-0. Higher level elo not so much, pretty simple concept.
On August 28 2012 09:55 Craton wrote: Level 6 Akali would probably still gib a level 8 Ashe.
But Akali would be getting farm either way and damn sure wouldn't be 2 levels behind. Assassins crush AD carries.
Lvl 6 Akali with 0 cs will still gib a lvl 8 ashe with 75 cs.
Well, has the ashe gone back to buy?, If the adc goes for the same build they go in bot sure, but well... lets say I get qss as my first item vs malz.
Then he just kills you anyway or free farms and outscales you because you can't last hit under tower?
Do we even play the same game?Ashe can't even trade vs adc let alone ap mid lanes....
I'm fairly sure ashe can trade with most mages pre-6, and probably 1v1 them with arrow even later (in some cases at least)
You might be able to trade evenly at levels 1-2, but the AP's damage escalates a lot faster than Ashe's. The only APs Ashe really has an advantage against are those with melee-range autos, and even then she loses to most of them.
On August 29 2012 03:14 OutlaW- wrote: If you can dodge their shit while autoattacking (perfect example is ahri) then I think it can work also he had first blood, Hakanfrog, and was 1-0-0
That does not compute. At 8:00 the total number of waves he'll have been able to last hit is 12. The following assumes perfect last-hitting and Smite usage, and accounts for creep scaling and increasing ranks of Hawkshot.
Remaining Gold at Start: 20g Value of 12 waves: 1608g Value of Wraith Stolen @1:40: 33g Approximate Gold Gains from Hawkshot: 191g Gold Gains from TF Passive: 152g Gold Gained by Smiting: 60g Passive Gold Gains (including gp10): 809g First Blood Gold: 400g
Total: 3273g IE: 3830g Gap: 557g
The math is similar for the 0-0-0 8:39 IE.
Remaining Gold at Start: 20g Value of 14 waves: 1878g Value of Wraith Stolen @1:40: 33g Approximate Gold Gains from Hawkshot: 239g Gold Gains from TF Passive: 176g Gold Gained by Smiting: 70g Passive Gold Gains (including gp10): 895g
Total: 3311g IE: 3830g Gap: 519g
Basically for this to be possible the p00n's team would have had to have taken at least one tower or dragon, and/or the p00n would have had to have been taking both jungler's Wraiths consistently.
Ashe can´t even trade with normal carrys in bot lane with a normal rune setup. But with maxing hawkshot, going GP5 runes, rushing IE with no dorans or boots2/vamp scepter, she is supposed to be able to trade with mid laners? Makes 0 sense. Even if you do manage to get a IE before 10 minutes (you won´t) you are squishy as fuck, have no mobilitiy and terrible wave clear, you have no AS so any AP can just burst you instantly. It´s even worse if they run cleanse as you will have 0 trading options.
ASHE with 'E' max is a hoax. OP is a freaking big troll. Can't believe I fell for it once again. Unless your opponents in lane are retards there is no way picking 'E' over anything else is more rewarding than being equal in lane.
Ignoring Frost Arrows for Hawkshot is more feasible (though still rather silly).
As for what having an AD carry mid does for your team: It allows you to do crazy compositions like a true kill lane bot (panth leona!),1v2 bot with a roamer, or even 1v2 bot and 2v1 top~!
Ashe is far too slow and squishy to play in mid, especially vs a strong burst champ like Veigar (or any other mid champ).
I imagine it would be ok vs melee champs like Akali, Gragas or Kat but the ganks are just too damn strong vs Ashe that any self respecting jungler will eat you for breakfast every time you try to cs.
The GP10 idea is pretty cool and would be awesome but I don't see why you couldn't build the same in bot lane, get the same amount of gold but less xp and a support to back you up. The lvl doesn't really matter with AD carry, you just need to farm up and get the items you need. I've played a ton of Ashe, and gone mid a couple of times. It would be viable certainly, but if your opponent plays intelligently and just freezes the lane under their tower your lack of an escape mechanism (apart from ulti which is a waste) really hurts.
Honestly, the biggest problem with running a carry mid is you have to buy some magic resistance/defensive items, and that's something that's not Infinity Edge. God, I hope IE gets nerfed.
If you want to do Ashe mid, buy some effective early/mid game items like Brutalizer and Hexdunker.
On August 31 2012 08:01 Craton wrote: Hex isn't bad for AD solos, but fuck Brutalizer. That CDR is almost completely wasted and Ghostblade is a horrible ranged carry item.
Yeah... AD carries just don't really need CDR, unless your name is Ezreal it's hard to make use of it effectively at all.
On August 31 2012 08:01 Craton wrote: Hex isn't bad for AD solos, but fuck Brutalizer. That CDR is almost completely wasted and Ghostblade is a horrible ranged carry item.
Yeah... AD carries just don't really need CDR, unless your name is Ezreal it's hard to make use of it effectively at all.
hey hey, do not be forgetting urgot the crab-man. s1 urgot mid horrible memories T_T
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/K4cED.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/l4nLK.jpg)
