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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
 and he only has a handful of games as hecarim so yeah and if he wanted a word with me he'd PM me haha also i've played with skarnold a bit and he and i play skarner essentially the exact same, he just plays him better. i feel like he would agree with all my thoughts on skarner/hecarim if he played hecarim enough to compare them | ||
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Juddas
768 Posts
I can't play in it now but made some great friends and had a great time preparing for it, it's a shame it got delayed | ||
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Thermia
United States866 Posts
On July 21 2012 10:59 gtrsrs wrote: i have more games as skarner than ST and he only has a handful of games as hecarim so yeah and if he wanted a word with me he'd PM me haha also i've played with skarnold a bit and he and i play skarner essentially the exact same, he just plays him better. i feel like he would agree with all my thoughts on skarner/hecarim if he played hecarim enough to compare them I feel like playing skarner for about the same number of games at 2200 is a lot more valid to base thought off of than it is at 1400-1600 though. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
On July 21 2012 10:57 zulu_nation8 wrote: congrats to akilord for getting picked up by AL I think there's like 4 people in this subforum who know Akilord and how he's tied to this subforum. Good for him though. | ||
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Jaso
United States2147 Posts
On July 21 2012 11:12 Juddas wrote: Was anyone here going to participate in the CSN amateur tournament? I can't play in it now but made some great friends and had a great time preparing for it, it's a shame it got delayed I was gonna play in it but my friend who was the one who got our team together had to go to China the day after it was supposed to happen originally. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On July 21 2012 11:18 Thermia wrote: I feel like playing skarner for about the same number of games at 2200 is a lot more valid to base thought off of than it is at 1400-1600 though. like, none of what i said has anything to do with how good i am or how good skarnold is at skarner my whole point was comparing hecarim to skarner, not myself to ST lol wtf | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZlQQy.png) Hello, I'm Hecarim. All the little girls want me. Also, my Q has 0.6 AD ratio. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VVTox.jpg) Hello, I'm Skarner, all the little girls fear me. Also, my Q has an 0.8 AD ratio. "Oh but they have different roles, Scip". You won't be saying the same thing after you read this one, I promise you. First of all, they are both junglers, so let's compare their jungling shall we? Skarner has a 1 higher damage than Hecarim than lvl1, that gap increases by 1.2 every level. On the other hand, Skarner has 0.045 less attack speed at lvl one, that gap increases by 0.4% every level. All these differences so small, let's call it close enough The combo of Skarner's passive, Q and W vs. Hecarim's passive, Q and W: Skarner's Q does 24 damage at lvl 1, Hecarim's 50. And Hecarim's Q has 2 second CD when he has 2 stacks, Skarner has about 2.5 if he gets 2 autoattacks off in between. What? Don't pull your damn pants down yet though. Oh what is this thing about Skarner getting extra 25 damage after he uses the first one? Oh my god, Hec does only 66% with his Q on creeps. What is this? 49 against 35-or-so? Is it really that bad? No. It's worse than that. Skarner's Q also costs less mana the first 3 levels, when it counts the most! Ask me later if I care about that small CD difference, and Ill shove that 14ish damage difference in your face. Skarner's and Hecarim's Ws are pretty similiar, which is unfortunate for our Horse because Skarner is so good. Skarner's W is a shield: blocks 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250 damage. Pretty alright, Pretty alright. To counter, Hecarim's W regens him for 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30% of damage dealt to stuff around him. In jungle, thats creeps. + Show Spoiler + Who woulda fucking thought. It doesnt matter how good your jungling eventually is. The damage paints a different picture though: Hecarim is better than Skarner in this. Took several fucking paragraphs to get to point when that happens, let me remind you. Skarner 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 % attack speed bonus is nowhere near matching Hecarim's 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260. Mana cost of Skarner's W is also higher/same than Hecarim's until you get both to lvl 3. Oh god damn Scip, Skarner got rapped in this comparison! WRONG Skarner's W gives him 15 - 23% movement speed, allowing him to move between camps faster! Not just that, Skarner's W has much shorter cooldown thanks to cooldown reduction from Skarner's passive. I could give Hecarim a slight edge and be generous, because: Hecarim's E Scip, it's such a good skill, why would that be a reason why you would count it against Hecarim? Well dear reader, let me educate you, Skarner has both movement speed buff to himself AND slow to enemy incorporated into his W and Q. Not so for Hecarim though! He needs to get E before 6 to have very scary ganks, which is going to take a level off of Hecarim's W or Q! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1h2LL.jpg) Were I offer Hecarim to say that his jungling is even with Skarner, the terms would be so sweet I'd gag. Now that we have compared their early jungling, that is oh so important to our hearts, we need to move to the other phase of the game. ! Them ultimate ganks ! I don't think I need to introduce you to either of those guys' ultimates, so I won't. Maybe you dont know the finer points about them: Hecarim's ultimate is not instant, if you are in the path you can flash away and be fine. ESCAPED! Skarner's ultimate is pretty fucking instant. If you try to flash you will get raped first and then instantly pulled back to Skarner. HA! Skarner's ultimate has shorter cooldown at lvl 6, same at lvl 11 and longer at lvl 16. But then Skarner's passive hits you in the face. Skarner's ultimate has shorter cooldown always, making him much more scarier much more often. Hecarim's ultimate does so much damage though! Except Skarner's does more at lvl 6, quiet you. Thanks to Skarner's short W cooldown and long duration, and because of Hecarim's abyssmal E cooldown and poor duration, Skarner has more mobility on the map. The scorpion cavalry prevails! To recapitulate, Hecarim really really really wants his teammate to have silence or stun to hit that sweet perfect ultimate. Skarner doesn't give a shit. But here comes the grand finale, that what Hecarim fans were all waiting for. Go pony! I love you! Horse better than Scorpions! surely, this is where all Hecarim's farm pays off, right? I could answer long or short. Both of them involve one key word though. NOPE Before these famous pitchforks of you witchhunters get wet with my blood, let me explain myself. Skarner and Hecarim are both tanky mofo's, who kinda dick around in fight. The easiest way to word this is to just say what Skarner does better. Do damage: Skarner's passive reduces his CDs by 1 when attacking champions. That equals fuckton of Qs. Suddenly, it doesn't matter that Hecarim's Q scales a bit better with levels does it? It's a bit worse than that though. While you are all arguing about how significant Hecarim's W damage is, you all forgot about that Skarner W. what is it going to be now, 45/50% attack speed buff? Pretty decent, Thats not all of it. It also gives a nice movement speed buff, oh so important if you wanna, oh I don't know, chase someone important. That is very nice coupled with 40% AoE slow that is Skarner constantly dishing out. Survive: Oh, Hecarim's W is so good in teamfights! Oh it heals for so much Hp OH OH OHHH- SHUSH you! Unfortunately for you, the standard metagame is 3 ignites atm. It is pretty unfortunate that your W healing is reduced by that, isn't it Hecarim? Skarner's W stands completely unaffected, Im really sad for you My Little Pony. But it is not just that. As it would seem, movement speed is very useful in for surviving teamfights and as it happens Horsie gets none extra. Awww. Peel: I don't honestly think anyone thought Hecarim is good at peeling at all. It is actually one thing he absolutely can't do. Well, Skarner is the God of peeling. With 40% slow, possibly ultimate, decent enough damage to discourage bruisers, your carries are safe as they could ever be! (Except for Olaf, fuck that guy, fucking Vikings holy shit man) Initiate ? The big question mark, who can initiate better?! It is so important!! Initiating is half of the teamfight!! Well, yes. Hecarim can certainly do it more often; Skarner can't initiate late game teamfights without flash (he can initiate midgame teamfights without flash pretty ok though). With both flashes up, who can do better? Well, it kinda depends. If you have the capacity to blow even a bruiser in a split second, you would prefer Skarner. If you prefer enemy team scattered, possibly farther away from you because Hecarim ult is pretty shit, well then you might want Hecarim. The thing is, at the end of the day, you don't want either to be your main initiate. I'll even be generous to Hecarim and say he can initiate a bit better. But what does it matter? He got owned in basically all categories, except for the how much you got owned category where Hecarim embarassed Skarner pretty hard. The battle is all but over, Horse got impaled, stop beating him, he is dead. | ||
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princessmasterhacker
United States9 Posts
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vvSiegvv
United States364 Posts
On July 21 2012 10:15 Cixah wrote: I like Bar of Legends, Pubstomp, or Defense of the Alcohol. Those seem like really clever ideas. Thanks! She really likes pubstomp and I haven't even thought of that! I'll let you guys know how things turn out. Just to add to the Hecarim vs Skarner discussion. My roommate has been playing a lot of hec lately after reading about it here, and he seems to be doing so much better then when he used to run jungle skarner. Mid 1700's so not the best but still pretty solid. | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
Thought you were making good points until you got to the ults. Suggesting that hec's ult is easier to flash away from than skarner's, that's either silliness to the point where I don't know whether to laugh or cry, or some major Texas sharpshooting. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14079 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On July 21 2012 12:08 Scip wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Wait a second, are people comparing Skarner and Hecarim? Lemme get on this shit. Hello, I'm Hecarim. All the little girls want me. Also, my Q has 0.6 AD ratio. Hello, I'm Skarner, all the little girls fear me. Also, my Q has an 0.8 AD ratio. "Oh but they have different roles, Scip". You won't be saying the same thing after you read this one, I promise you. First of all, they are both junglers, so let's compare their jungling shall we? Skarner has a 1 higher damage than Hecarim than lvl1, that gap increases by 1.2 every level. On the other hand, Skarner has 0.045 less attack speed at lvl one, that gap increases by 0.4% every level. All these differences so small, let's call it close enough The combo of Skarner's passive, Q and W vs. Hecarim's passive, Q and W: Skarner's Q does 24 damage at lvl 1, Hecarim's 50. And Hecarim's Q has 2 second CD when he has 2 stacks, Skarner has about 2.5 if he gets 2 autoattacks off in between. What? Don't pull your damn pants down yet though. Oh what is this thing about Skarner getting extra 25 damage after he uses the first one? Oh my god, Hec does only 66% with his Q on creeps. What is this? 49 against 35-or-so? Is it really that bad? No. It's worse than that. Skarner's Q also costs less mana the first 3 levels, when it counts the most! Ask me later if I care about that small CD difference, and Ill shove that 14ish damage difference in your face. Skarner's and Hecarim's Ws are pretty similiar, which is unfortunate for our Horse because Skarner is so good. Skarner's W is a shield: blocks 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250 damage. Pretty alright, Pretty alright. To counter, Hecarim's W regens him for 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30% of damage dealt to stuff around him. In jungle, thats creeps. + Show Spoiler + Who woulda fucking thought. It doesnt matter how good your jungling eventually is. The damage paints a different picture though: Hecarim is better than Skarner in this. Took several fucking paragraphs to get to point when that happens, let me remind you. Skarner 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 % attack speed bonus is nowhere near matching Hecarim's 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260. Mana cost of Skarner's W is also higher/same than Hecarim's until you get both to lvl 3. Oh god damn Scip, Skarner got rapped in this comparison! WRONG Skarner's W gives him 15 - 23% movement speed, allowing him to move between camps faster! Not just that, Skarner's W has much shorter cooldown thanks to cooldown reduction from Skarner's passive. I could give Hecarim a slight edge and be generous, because: Hecarim's E Scip, it's such a good skill, why would that be a reason why you would count it against Hecarim? Well dear reader, let me educate you, Skarner has both movement speed buff to himself AND slow to enemy incorporated into his W and Q. Not so for Hecarim though! He needs to get E before 6 to have very scary ganks, which is going to take a level off of Hecarim's W or Q! Were I offer Hecarim to say that his jungling is even with Skarner, the terms would be so sweet I'd gag. Now that we have compared their early jungling, that is oh so important to our hearts, we need to move to the other phase of the game. ! Them ultimate ganks ! I don't think I need to introduce you to either of those guys' ultimates, so I won't. Maybe you dont know the finer points about them: Hecarim's ultimate is not instant, if you are in the path you can flash away and be fine. ESCAPED! Skarner's ultimate is pretty fucking instant. If you try to flash you will get raped first and then instantly pulled back to Skarner. HA! Skarner's ultimate has shorter cooldown at lvl 6, same at lvl 11 and longer at lvl 16. But then Skarner's passive hits you in the face. Skarner's ultimate has shorter cooldown always, making him much more scarier much more often. Hecarim's ultimate does so much damage though! Except Skarner's does more at lvl 6, quiet you. Thanks to Skarner's short W cooldown and long duration, and because of Hecarim's abyssmal E cooldown and poor duration, Skarner has more mobility on the map. The scorpion cavalry prevails! To recapitulate, Hecarim really really really wants his teammate to have silence or stun to hit that sweet perfect ultimate. Skarner doesn't give a shit. But here comes the grand finale, that what Hecarim fans were all waiting for. Go pony! I love you! Horse better than Scorpions! surely, this is where all Hecarim's farm pays off, right? I could answer long or short. Both of them involve one key word though. NOPE Before these famous pitchforks of you witchhunters get wet with my blood, let me explain myself. Skarner and Hecarim are both tanky mofo's, who kinda dick around in fight. The easiest way to word this is to just say what Skarner does better. Do damage: Skarner's passive reduces his CDs by 1 when attacking champions. That equals fuckton of Qs. Suddenly, it doesn't matter that Hecarim's Q scales a bit better with levels does it? It's a bit worse than that though. While you are all arguing about how significant Hecarim's W damage is, you all forgot about that Skarner W. what is it going to be now, 45/50% attack speed buff? Pretty decent, Thats not all of it. It also gives a nice movement speed buff, oh so important if you wanna, oh I don't know, chase someone important. That is very nice coupled with 40% AoE slow that is Skarner constantly dishing out. Survive: Oh, Hecarim's W is so good in teamfights! Oh it heals for so much Hp OH OH OHHH- SHUSH you! Unfortunately for you, the standard metagame is 3 ignites atm. It is pretty unfortunate that your W healing is reduced by that, isn't it Hecarim? Skarner's W stands completely unaffected, Im really sad for you My Little Pony. But it is not just that. As it would seem, movement speed is very useful in for surviving teamfights and as it happens Horsie gets none extra. Awww. Peel: I don't honestly think anyone thought Hecarim is good at peeling at all. It is actually one thing he absolutely can't do. Well, Skarner is the God of peeling. With 40% slow, possibly ultimate, decent enough damage to discourage bruisers, your carries are safe as they could ever be! (Except for Olaf, fuck that guy, fucking Vikings holy shit man) Initiate ? The big question mark, who can initiate better?! It is so important!! Initiating is half of the teamfight!! Well, yes. Hecarim can certainly do it more often; Skarner can't initiate late game teamfights without flash (he can initiate midgame teamfights without flash pretty ok though). With both flashes up, who can do better? Well, it kinda depends. If you have the capacity to blow even a bruiser in a split second, you would prefer Skarner. If you prefer enemy team scattered, possibly farther away from you because Hecarim ult is pretty shit, well then you might want Hecarim. The thing is, at the end of the day, you don't want either to be your main initiate. I'll even be generous to Hecarim and say he can initiate a bit better. But what does it matter? He got owned in basically all categories, except for the how much you got owned category where Hecarim embarassed Skarner pretty hard. The battle is all but over, Horse got impaled, stop beating him, he is dead. I was with you until you started comparing ults. Skarner just CAN'T initiate the way Hecarim can - an AoE CC with a long range dive component is a lot different from a melee range supress. I'd daresay Hecarim can initiate FAR better than Skarner, as well as followup other initiates. Scattering enemy team is actually pretty good, and you often DO want your jungler to be a major initiator. Skarner is still pretty awesome, but if you need initiation from your jungler, hecarim is a valid choice. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
Their individual teamfighting, 1v1, etc. all differ similarly. clippity cloppity | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
thank you for wording all my points in a more articulate way and to the people saying hec's ult is better or that it's not underwhelming, i question how many games of hecarim you've played. lots of things look scary the first time you see them. i remember when i was summoner level 12 and i played against a tryndamere for the first time and he towerdove both me and my lane partner, tanked the tower for 6s and got a double kill, then spun out alive. 'OP!' i screamed. now when i play against tryndamere and he ults i just think to myself 'ha! you're just delaying the inevitable!' in the same way, the first time you see hecarim's ult you're like WOW AOE FEAR AND 1000 RANGE DASH THAT SHIT IS BONKERS and then you play him for 40 games and you realize 'jesus titties, this ult is slower than twitch's base movement speed, does no damage, and the fear is completely negligible, even if the enemies dodge it, my team won't be able to do anything significant while our opponents are barely feared... wtf i got GYPPED' scorpions rule horses dr00l | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
In the end, I don't think it really matters, since anchor is in the game and is still silly. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
I really don't get why people are arguing Skarner vs Hecarim anyway. | ||
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Juddas
768 Posts
Nowadays, and especially after the GP10 nerfs, I have been going boots 3, zeal or phage, (Wits End), Finish Tforce, then a PD. Sometimes I wont get the PD, and I wont get PD and Wits, but if I am vs. Physical damage top I have almost always been getting a PD after triforce. Is this normal/ok? It has reaaaallly been working for me and I have gotten 2 quardras in the past 10 games with her with this build. Of course afterwards I get a GA, and then if I'm really ahead I actually really like the new ionic spark. Thoughts? EDIT: actually lately I have been considering only buying items that help her stick,chase, or run faster. That is really really nice. Maybe a FoN in there somewhere | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
On July 21 2012 15:13 Juddas wrote: Hey on Irelia, I know nothing changed for her but I have been dabbling with a new build for her. What I used to do was boots 3, Philo HoG, then work on my Tforce, getting whichever component I need most. Nowadays, and especially after the GP10 nerfs, I have been going boots 3, zeal or phage, (Wits End), Finish Tforce, then a PD. Sometimes I wont get the PD, and I wont get PD and Wits, but if I am vs. Physical damage top I have almost always been getting a PD after triforce. Is this normal/ok? It has reaaaallly been working for me and I have gotten 2 quardras in the past 10 games with her with this build. Of course afterwards I get a GA, and then if I'm really ahead I actually really like the new ionic spark. Thoughts? Even though triforce is completely retarded on her, I'm still more of a frotmas person myself. Either way, phage is awesome on her vs ADs top. Usually build it after I grab my tabi and then start going into Wit's. PD is interesting. I understand wanting more attack speed, but I think Wit's provides you with a good deal of it. Would probably replace it with a tank item like Randuin's myself. Ideally, I wind up with mercs, frotmas, wits, GA, and then either a Randuin's or another MR item depending on their team comp. | ||
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