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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
i'm going to make a bold statement here and say with the recent buff to it, madred's bloodrazor might be a usable or even rushable item on certain top lane champs.
i think since it now gives 40 AD (equivalent to the damage that wit's does), and builds out of razor, MBR might be a good first item on top-lane tiger-stance udyr. the AD scaling on tiger is pretty good, 40 AD is not meaningless, it builds out of a natural first item, it gives AS, AND the proc might just push it into viable territory. not sure who else could use it. perhaps cho'gath or warwick could make use of it too. (and by first item, i mean like cloth + 5, razer, boots, recurve, tank item, MBR)
what do you think?
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On March 09 2012 05:39 deskscaress wrote:
i'm going to make a bold statement here and say with the recent buff to it, madred's bloodrazor might be a usable or even rushable item on certain top lane champs.
i think since it now gives 40 AD (equivalent to the damage that wit's does), and builds out of razor, MBR might be a good first item on top-lane tiger-stance udyr. the AD scaling on tiger is pretty good, 40 AD is not meaningless, it builds out of a natural first item, it gives AS, AND the proc might just push it into viable territory. not sure who else could use it. perhaps cho'gath or warwick could make use of it too. (and by first item, i mean like cloth + 5, razer, boots, recurve, tank item, MBR)
what do you think?
the 1800 gold difference between MBR and Wit's is tough to overlook, but I think it's secretly much more viable than most people are aware of after that buff. I think it might be very strong on Irelia tbh.
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On March 09 2012 05:09 billy5000 wrote:
why is madreds so useless?? i want to get it sometimes but i realize i'll end up getting it to counter just their tank (ie hs's shen against crs)
Well, why do you think it's useless? 40 AD, 40% aspd, and then the passive. First of all it decimates Baron in seconds, second even against a semisquishy with QSS(100 mres) and 2k hp it deals 40 extra damage per hit, but most importantly makes it so that they can't itemize only in armor in the case you get fed. For instance a 400 Armor Shen doesn't give 2 shits about you even if you are like 15-0 if the rest of your team can't deal much dmg, but when you add the Bloodrazor he needs to balance it out and the rest of your setup is going to deal decent amounts of damage as well. 40 AD and 40% aspd alone are worth what, 2.5k? And then you also get 40 dmg per hit after resistance reductions(so let's think of it as true damage) vs a 2k hp 100 mres target. 40 true dmg per hit has to be worth the extra 1.5k right? And this is vs a squishy who's well equipped vs Bloodrazor.
On March 09 2012 05:39 deskscaress wrote:
i'm going to make a bold statement here and say with the recent buff to it, madred's bloodrazor might be a usable or even rushable item on certain top lane champs.
i think since it now gives 40 AD (equivalent to the damage that wit's does), and builds out of razor, MBR might be a good first item on top-lane tiger-stance udyr. the AD scaling on tiger is pretty good, 40 AD is not meaningless, it builds out of a natural first item, it gives AS, AND the proc might just push it into viable territory. not sure who else could use it. perhaps cho'gath or warwick could make use of it too. (and by first item, i mean like cloth + 5, razer, boots, recurve, tank item, MBR)
what do you think?
Rushing it as a first item makes no sense to me because it scales with time(opponent levels and items). It's the same kind of a deal as LW to me.
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On March 09 2012 05:45 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:39 deskscaress wrote:
i'm going to make a bold statement here and say with the recent buff to it, madred's bloodrazor might be a usable or even rushable item on certain top lane champs.
i think since it now gives 40 AD (equivalent to the damage that wit's does), and builds out of razor, MBR might be a good first item on top-lane tiger-stance udyr. the AD scaling on tiger is pretty good, 40 AD is not meaningless, it builds out of a natural first item, it gives AS, AND the proc might just push it into viable territory. not sure who else could use it. perhaps cho'gath or warwick could make use of it too. (and by first item, i mean like cloth + 5, razer, boots, recurve, tank item, MBR)
what do you think? the 1800 gold difference between MBR and Wit's is tough to overlook, but I think it's secretly much more viable than most people are aware of after that buff. I think it might be very strong on Irelia tbh.
yeah i agree, but on the right champs (i.e. wit's magic damage proc pales compared to 40 AD on tiger stance hits) or against the right opponents (the MR on wit's useless compared to the armor from madred's against panth) it's an item that now gives pretty dang good base stats and a damage component that's going to scale all game. definitely not a core item on anyone but i really think it's viable again.
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On March 09 2012 05:39 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:15 Mogwai wrote:On March 09 2012 04:57 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 09 2012 04:48 Mogwai wrote:On March 09 2012 04:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
You know what, nvm. Math is too funky for me. lol. last whisper is the counter to armor stacking, dunno where you were going to go with that. the proportional difference it makes to your damage output goes up considerably with higher armor targets. Nah, I get that part, but what I mean is that it seems to be more than cost-effective even on reasonably low-armor target (25% bonus to all physical damage including spells vs 100 armor) so it seems weird that you don't see it more often as the default AD item. I mean, to me it just seems like vs 100 armor, you get something like: 40 AD 25% extra "crit" that affects spells for 2300 gold (I use crit here as an easy reference since 25% extra damage is 25% extra crit without taking I.edge into account) Which seems... I dunno...really good I guess is what I'm trying to say, especially when it saves you the trouble of having to get it later anyways when the enemy DOES get a buttload more armor. Oh sure, LW is pretty much always good. The question is about opportunity cost vs. different stats though and when you're talking about attacking low armor targets, it's usually better to go for other stats. I dunno what you mean in terms of it being the default AD item though, it's pretty much a part of all AD builds. Spent 5 minutes making a spreadsheet. Assuming you have 2 dorans and arpen marks/ad quints/standard masteries, LW is slighly better than either BF+pickaxe or BF+crit cloak against targets above 100 armor. LW really needs other items first to take advantage of the scaling effect of arpen against most targets that early in the game.
I'd like to see the spreadsheet if possible 
Does it take into consideration the damage boost on spells though? For instance, if you are playing Cait, that LW is going to boost Q + R which all have fairly high base damage.
And I don't mean to say LW is better than BF items, it's just that it seems "good enough" in terms of stats that if you're going to be sitting on 1 AD items for the whole mid-game while you're building QSS and Phantom dancer, that LW sounds good or at least a better option than having to play catch-up later on.
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On March 08 2012 19:56 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 15:31 Ryuu314 wrote:
To be completely honest, I feel that DotA has more depth than LoL at the moment. It's probably because DotA has more unforgiving mechanics such as comparatively OP skills, larger map, easier access to ganks, gold loss on death, denying, etc... LoL is a very "safe" game. It's generally harder to make plays or make shit happen and even then the penalty/risk of making plays is often vastly outweighed by the benefits of playing a safe, tight game. It's partially due to Riot not wanting to introduce "unfun" mechanics and to cater to casuals. It's can also (I hope) be a product of the current metagame, but the way things are right now, DotA just feels like it has more depth and variability. It's kinda like comparing BW to SC2 imo.
On the issue of games requiring "skill," there's almost no argument that mechanically, RTS>MOBA. In terms of mechanical skill BW>SC2>DotA>LoL. But honestly, mechanics isn't everything; it's a very small part (except in BW lololol). When it comes down to it, the fact that MOBAs are team games make it so that the complexity/strategic depth is easily on-par or can even surpass that of RTS simply because there are more variables in the game. I am not sure where you get the "less forgiving" => "more depth" thing from. Especially because it can be hard to make plays in LoL (compared to just hitting one of these OP DotA skills while your enemy messes up for a split second), it requires a lot of planning and coordination to consistenly dominate. That does fit the "depth" thing, doesn't it?
On March 08 2012 21:21 Bwaaaa wrote:
I actually like how LOL is more forgiving at the pro level because it leads to comebacks. In SC2 you have games where someone has made a mistake and the game lasts for awhile longer before the person person with the advantage facerolls the opponents army (I am not saying someone cannot come back in SC2 and those games are usually very exciting). In LOL there are much more ways to come back (baron, drag, one bad teamfight, catching the carry, etc.). I am not saying these games don't happen in LOL but they are certainly less common.
Uh. I'm not sure which promatches you guys are used to, but there are two main reasons why comebacks in LoL are so rare (this was annoying me before I started playing DotA 2, it just made me understand it better). This actually also means that DotA in comparison is MORE forgiving. Yes, more.
1) Scaling. Since we had it so often, everyone and their mother scales the same. Yes, there is still a difference between like a Vayne/Kog/Trist and an Ezreal. Yes, there's a difference between Taric and Janna. Yes, there's a difference between Nasus and Udyr.
However, those differences are no where big enough to be able to absolutely rely on them. If you're behind, you're behind. There are no magic items or amounts of farm that suddenly makes one of those typical "DotA hardcarries" pop out of the brushes and 1n5 your team. On the contrast, that also means that very early game centric compositions are harder to pull off. Basicly the difference between early and lategame champions is rather small in League which means the entire dynamic around focussing on either is simplified.
I agree with Riot that getting 1n5'd is fucking unfun as hell. However, the dynamic that you are aware of beforehand ("either we rape this team 5n4 during the first 35 minutes or we're fucked") creates a situation where one side HAS TO FORCE things to happen. You have one side with the clear goal of pressuring the hell out of the enemy and the other side with the goal of stalling for as long as possible.
Without true "hard carries" you remove such a dynamic which basically results in what we see a lot in competitive play atm: Both sides playing safe and "stalling" because there is no big reason to play aggressive.
2) The Map and the benefit of map control. ... I think Yango pointed this out to me first as to why comebacks are rarer in League: The team that is ahead in League receives a "free" 975 gold every 6 minutes (Dragon). Since Dragon is in the middle of the river it means that you just need a slight advantage to start this snowball. Add to that that wards are more powerfull in League it again is harder to help a lane that's behind or to regain mapcontrol. Being the team with the first Oracle/first Dragon etc. is immensely powerful in LoL and to my knowledge it is very rare that (pro-) teams recover from a global gold disadvantage.
On March 09 2012 04:54 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 04:50 epoc wrote:
Yeah I agree with making baron hella lot stronger I think they just need to make the reward less powerful tbh. making it more powerful wouldn't change a lot as far as I can tell.
Agree. Imo Baron itself should be stronger and the reward less powerful. Still not sure which Dragon fix would make the most sense 'cause I believe that's where the real problem starts.
Edit: What I'm really interested in is how the above points can be "fixed" to create more interesting gameplay without fucking over Riots fundamental design principles because to be honest... besides a change to wards and their interaction with oracles I'm at a loss. For wards I'd suggest restricting the max amount on either team. Mabye some guys got better ideas because I find the first problem to be pretty damn hard to crack without moving to champions that scale harder.
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On March 09 2012 06:01 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:39 Amui wrote:On March 09 2012 05:15 Mogwai wrote:On March 09 2012 04:57 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 09 2012 04:48 Mogwai wrote:On March 09 2012 04:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
You know what, nvm. Math is too funky for me. lol. last whisper is the counter to armor stacking, dunno where you were going to go with that. the proportional difference it makes to your damage output goes up considerably with higher armor targets. Nah, I get that part, but what I mean is that it seems to be more than cost-effective even on reasonably low-armor target (25% bonus to all physical damage including spells vs 100 armor) so it seems weird that you don't see it more often as the default AD item. I mean, to me it just seems like vs 100 armor, you get something like: 40 AD 25% extra "crit" that affects spells for 2300 gold (I use crit here as an easy reference since 25% extra damage is 25% extra crit without taking I.edge into account) Which seems... I dunno...really good I guess is what I'm trying to say, especially when it saves you the trouble of having to get it later anyways when the enemy DOES get a buttload more armor. Oh sure, LW is pretty much always good. The question is about opportunity cost vs. different stats though and when you're talking about attacking low armor targets, it's usually better to go for other stats. I dunno what you mean in terms of it being the default AD item though, it's pretty much a part of all AD builds. Spent 5 minutes making a spreadsheet. Assuming you have 2 dorans and arpen marks/ad quints/standard masteries, LW is slighly better than either BF+pickaxe or BF+crit cloak against targets above 100 armor. LW really needs other items first to take advantage of the scaling effect of arpen against most targets that early in the game. I'd like to see the spreadsheet if possible Does it take into consideration the damage boost on spells though? For instance, if you are playing Cait, that LW is going to boost Q + R which all have fairly high base damage. And I don't mean to say LW is better than BF items, it's just that it seems "good enough" in terms of stats that if you're going to be sitting on 1 AD items for the whole mid-game while you're building QSS and Phantom dancer, that LW sounds good or at least a better option than having to play catch-up later on.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsFln-1yyTDfdE1yV2djVF9wQ1JiZG1jVHhiQzdMMGc
This is valid only for autos. You could plug in numbers though, the champ I used for initial numbers was a level 10 ashe
edit: added 2 more columns for a big damage nuke.
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Well, Dragon/Baron could become less rewarding if you pick it up several times in succession, much like kill rewards on champions.
If that really is a problem.
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On March 09 2012 05:39 deskscaress wrote:
i'm going to make a bold statement here and say with the recent buff to it, madred's bloodrazor might be a usable or even rushable item on certain top lane champs.
i think since it now gives 40 AD (equivalent to the damage that wit's does), and builds out of razor, MBR might be a good first item on top-lane tiger-stance udyr. the AD scaling on tiger is pretty good, 40 AD is not meaningless, it builds out of a natural first item, it gives AS, AND the proc might just push it into viable territory. not sure who else could use it. perhaps cho'gath or warwick could make use of it too. (and by first item, i mean like cloth + 5, razer, boots, recurve, tank item, MBR)
what do you think?
I would get it as a lategame item on shyvana, since she uses all the stats very well. She also uses magic pen so the proc is a bit more useful.
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imo they should just chuck the razor part of bloodrazors out of the equation. Never understood why it was there in the first place.
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actually what do u guys think of rushing madreds bloodrazor* on fiora?
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On March 09 2012 05:39 deskscaress wrote:
i'm going to make a bold statement here and say with the recent buff to it, madred's bloodrazor might be a usable or even rushable item on certain top lane champs.
i think since it now gives 40 AD (equivalent to the damage that wit's does), and builds out of razor, MBR might be a good first item on top-lane tiger-stance udyr. the AD scaling on tiger is pretty good, 40 AD is not meaningless, it builds out of a natural first item, it gives AS, AND the proc might just push it into viable territory. not sure who else could use it. perhaps cho'gath or warwick could make use of it too. (and by first item, i mean like cloth + 5, razer, boots, recurve, tank item, MBR)
what do you think?
MBR was always an acceptable item. On hit items are very cost efficient mid game, provide some tankiness for low range champions, and can let you do more magic damage than cassiopeia.
Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:39 deskscaress wrote:
i'm going to make a bold statement here and say with the recent buff to it, madred's bloodrazor might be a usable or even rushable item on certain top lane champs.
i think since it now gives 40 AD (equivalent to the damage that wit's does), and builds out of razor, MBR might be a good first item on top-lane tiger-stance udyr. the AD scaling on tiger is pretty good, 40 AD is not meaningless, it builds out of a natural first item, it gives AS, AND the proc might just push it into viable territory. not sure who else could use it. perhaps cho'gath or warwick could make use of it too. (and by first item, i mean like cloth + 5, razer, boots, recurve, tank item, MBR)
what do you think? Rushing it as a first item makes no sense to me because it scales with time(opponent levels and items). It's the same kind of a deal as LW to me.
MBR's strength scales with your opponent's strength so its relative strength over time is the same all game. It does scale with time but only because the opponents scale with time. For an example consider if MBR was just the passive. It'd take you 25 hits to kill a 0MR target regardless of whether the target had 100 or 10000 life.
On March 09 2012 06:51 barbsq wrote:
imo they should just chuck the razor part of bloodrazors out of the equation. Never understood why it was there in the first place.
Because they're both good at killing Evil barons.
On March 09 2012 06:01 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:39 Amui wrote:On March 09 2012 05:15 Mogwai wrote:On March 09 2012 04:57 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 09 2012 04:48 Mogwai wrote:On March 09 2012 04:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
You know what, nvm. Math is too funky for me. lol. last whisper is the counter to armor stacking, dunno where you were going to go with that. the proportional difference it makes to your damage output goes up considerably with higher armor targets. Nah, I get that part, but what I mean is that it seems to be more than cost-effective even on reasonably low-armor target (25% bonus to all physical damage including spells vs 100 armor) so it seems weird that you don't see it more often as the default AD item. I mean, to me it just seems like vs 100 armor, you get something like: 40 AD 25% extra "crit" that affects spells for 2300 gold (I use crit here as an easy reference since 25% extra damage is 25% extra crit without taking I.edge into account) Which seems... I dunno...really good I guess is what I'm trying to say, especially when it saves you the trouble of having to get it later anyways when the enemy DOES get a buttload more armor. Oh sure, LW is pretty much always good. The question is about opportunity cost vs. different stats though and when you're talking about attacking low armor targets, it's usually better to go for other stats. I dunno what you mean in terms of it being the default AD item though, it's pretty much a part of all AD builds. Spent 5 minutes making a spreadsheet. Assuming you have 2 dorans and arpen marks/ad quints/standard masteries, LW is slighly better than either BF+pickaxe or BF+crit cloak against targets above 100 armor. LW really needs other items first to take advantage of the scaling effect of arpen against most targets that early in the game. I'd like to see the spreadsheet if possible Does it take into consideration the damage boost on spells though? For instance, if you are playing Cait, that LW is going to boost Q + R which all have fairly high base damage. And I don't mean to say LW is better than BF items, it's just that it seems "good enough" in terms of stats that if you're going to be sitting on 1 AD items for the whole mid-game while you're building QSS and Phantom dancer, that LW sounds good or at least a better option than having to play catch-up later on.
Go to leaguecraft and do the calculations yourslef. It's very likely amui didn't take into account things like runes and masteries and his standard build is different from your own. Then take out a calculator and do some more calculations with armor. From my own findings yesterday, I don't like the idea of building LW until after an IE and Pdancer.
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On March 09 2012 06:51 barbsq wrote:
imo they should just chuck the razor part of bloodrazors out of the equation. Never understood why it was there in the first place.
Because Wriggle's didn't exist until patch v96.
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On March 09 2012 06:51 barbsq wrote:
imo they should just chuck the razor part of bloodrazors out of the equation. Never understood why it was there in the first place.
it was there because the main draw of bloodrazors used to be soloing baron =3.
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On March 09 2012 07:08 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:39 deskscaress wrote:
i'm going to make a bold statement here and say with the recent buff to it, madred's bloodrazor might be a usable or even rushable item on certain top lane champs.
i think since it now gives 40 AD (equivalent to the damage that wit's does), and builds out of razor, MBR might be a good first item on top-lane tiger-stance udyr. the AD scaling on tiger is pretty good, 40 AD is not meaningless, it builds out of a natural first item, it gives AS, AND the proc might just push it into viable territory. not sure who else could use it. perhaps cho'gath or warwick could make use of it too. (and by first item, i mean like cloth + 5, razer, boots, recurve, tank item, MBR)
what do you think? MBR was always an acceptable item. On hit items are very cost efficient mid game, provide some tankiness for low range champions, and can let you do more magic damage than cassiopeia. Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:39 deskscaress wrote:
i'm going to make a bold statement here and say with the recent buff to it, madred's bloodrazor might be a usable or even rushable item on certain top lane champs.
i think since it now gives 40 AD (equivalent to the damage that wit's does), and builds out of razor, MBR might be a good first item on top-lane tiger-stance udyr. the AD scaling on tiger is pretty good, 40 AD is not meaningless, it builds out of a natural first item, it gives AS, AND the proc might just push it into viable territory. not sure who else could use it. perhaps cho'gath or warwick could make use of it too. (and by first item, i mean like cloth + 5, razer, boots, recurve, tank item, MBR)
what do you think? Rushing it as a first item makes no sense to me because it scales with time(opponent levels and items). It's the same kind of a deal as LW to me. MBR's strength scales with your opponent's strength so its relative strength over time is the same all game. It does scale with time but only because the opponents scale with time. For an example consider if MBR was just the passive. It'd take you 25 hits to kill a 0MR target regardless of whether the target had 100 or 10000 life. Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 06:51 barbsq wrote:
imo they should just chuck the razor part of bloodrazors out of the equation. Never understood why it was there in the first place. Because they're both good at killing Evil barons. Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 06:01 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 09 2012 05:39 Amui wrote:On March 09 2012 05:15 Mogwai wrote:On March 09 2012 04:57 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 09 2012 04:48 Mogwai wrote:On March 09 2012 04:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
You know what, nvm. Math is too funky for me. lol. last whisper is the counter to armor stacking, dunno where you were going to go with that. the proportional difference it makes to your damage output goes up considerably with higher armor targets. Nah, I get that part, but what I mean is that it seems to be more than cost-effective even on reasonably low-armor target (25% bonus to all physical damage including spells vs 100 armor) so it seems weird that you don't see it more often as the default AD item. I mean, to me it just seems like vs 100 armor, you get something like: 40 AD 25% extra "crit" that affects spells for 2300 gold (I use crit here as an easy reference since 25% extra damage is 25% extra crit without taking I.edge into account) Which seems... I dunno...really good I guess is what I'm trying to say, especially when it saves you the trouble of having to get it later anyways when the enemy DOES get a buttload more armor. Oh sure, LW is pretty much always good. The question is about opportunity cost vs. different stats though and when you're talking about attacking low armor targets, it's usually better to go for other stats. I dunno what you mean in terms of it being the default AD item though, it's pretty much a part of all AD builds. Spent 5 minutes making a spreadsheet. Assuming you have 2 dorans and arpen marks/ad quints/standard masteries, LW is slighly better than either BF+pickaxe or BF+crit cloak against targets above 100 armor. LW really needs other items first to take advantage of the scaling effect of arpen against most targets that early in the game. I'd like to see the spreadsheet if possible Does it take into consideration the damage boost on spells though? For instance, if you are playing Cait, that LW is going to boost Q + R which all have fairly high base damage. And I don't mean to say LW is better than BF items, it's just that it seems "good enough" in terms of stats that if you're going to be sitting on 1 AD items for the whole mid-game while you're building QSS and Phantom dancer, that LW sounds good or at least a better option than having to play catch-up later on. Go to leaguecraft and do the calculations yourslef. It's very likely amui didn't take into account things like runes and masteries and his standard build is different from your own. Then take out a calculator and do some more calculations with armor. From my own findings yesterday, I don't like the idea of building LW until after an IE and Pdancer.
i find it is often best to build lw after ie zeal then finish pd afterwards, especially if you are behind vs. their tanks or if they have people that like to build very tanky or have armor steroids.
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Go to leaguecraft and do the calculations yourslef. It's very likely amui didn't take into account things like runes and masteries and his standard build is different from your own. Then take out a calculator and do some more calculations with armor. From my own findings yesterday, I don't like the idea of building LW until after an IE and Pdancer.
I did include both masteries and runing. Arpen marks, AD quints, and going down left side of offense, with a level 10 ashe for base stats.
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On March 09 2012 07:33 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +Go to leaguecraft and do the calculations yourslef. It's very likely amui didn't take into account things like runes and masteries and his standard build is different from your own. Then take out a calculator and do some more calculations with armor. From my own findings yesterday, I don't like the idea of building LW until after an IE and Pdancer. I did include both masteries and runing. Arpen marks, AD quints, and going down left side of offense, with a level 10 ashe for base stats.
That's very impressive considering that a lot of the masteries apply at weird times in damage calculations. Curious, why lvl 10?
edit: they're not that weird anymore. Maybe that was just for season 1.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
Finally! I've always wanted to see something like this but I don't have the drive to get something started.
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EPT
