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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
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On March 09 2012 01:59 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:20 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 09 2012 01:07 WaveofShadow wrote:On March 09 2012 00:43 Juicyfruit wrote:
Well, the thing is that tic tac toe not a "competition" at that point because it's not a game once you've beaten
it. However, I think that it's a perfectly valid 2-man competition up until the point where one party member figured out the optimal solution.
Yes except the depth of a game is directly related to how easy it is to figure out the optimal solution. Tic tac toe has no depth whatsoever and therefore is not really a useful example. But my point is that up until you figured everything out, the game is just as competitive as a game with "more depth". It might take much longer to figure out the optimal solution but that's not what defines how competitive a game is - it's the amount of people who can challenge and compete with you. I can agree with that completely, even though I just think tictactoe is a crappy example. I've just started playing DotA 2 and right away I noticed the level of...let's call them 'variables' in terms of gameplay are way higher than in LoL, both mechanical and strategical. Doesn't say much about the level of competition however since in either game there are two factors crucial to competition in my opinion: 1) the ability to improve oneself 2) a vast and diverse player pool against whom you can play (2a - people who are better than you at the game - this is a combination of the above two points really.) Both games have this in abundance, as does chess, making it a good example as well. Tictactoe arguably has neither, therefore it is not competitive. Interesting thing to note here is that people think a game like Mario Kart isn't competitive and never will be, but if you think about it, it technically fills the above criteria.... (I suppose the second point might be debatable but nontheless, it is a competitive game. Now if one wants to bring competitive on an E-sports level, a whole bunch of other criteria must be added, which opens up a whole new can of worms. Maybe I'll get into this.)
Wow, I just thought this was an incredibly insightful way to explain why some games are competitive. You are definately right that being competetive =/= an esport, because an esport requires further factors.
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You know what, nvm. Math is too funky for me.
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On March 09 2012 04:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
You know what, nvm. Math is too funky for me.
lol.
last whisper is the counter to armor stacking, dunno where you were going to go with that. the proportional difference it makes to your damage output goes up considerably with higher armor targets.
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Yeah I agree with making baron hella lot stronger
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On March 09 2012 04:50 epoc wrote:
Yeah I agree with making baron hella lot stronger
I think they just need to make the reward less powerful tbh. making it more powerful wouldn't change a lot as far as I can tell.
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On March 09 2012 04:48 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 04:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
You know what, nvm. Math is too funky for me. lol. last whisper is the counter to armor stacking, dunno where you were going to go with that. the proportional difference it makes to your damage output goes up considerably with higher armor targets.
Nah, I get that part, but what I mean is that it seems to be more than cost-effective even on reasonably low-armor target (25% bonus to all physical damage including spells vs 100 armor) so it seems weird that you don't see it more often as the default AD item.
I mean, to me it just seems like vs 100 armor, you get something like:
40 AD
25% extra "crit" that affects spells for 2300 gold (I use crit here as an easy reference since 25% extra damage is 25% extra crit without taking I.edge into account)
Which seems... I dunno...really good I guess is what I'm trying to say, especially when it saves you the trouble of having to get it later anyways when the enemy DOES get a buttload more armor.
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It may be kinda hard to balance tho - I'm afraid that if baron would be insignificant the games would be more oriented at standing under towers and hoping to somehow kill them 
(yeah now you are standing under baron and hoping to somehow kill him)
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if anything they should change the lategame power of the dragon objective. like give all turrets x armor or sth idk iam not at riot. but anything that spreads out the decisions more would help alot. Even if they made turrets weaker it would help since the payoff of counterattacking would increase.
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On March 09 2012 04:48 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 04:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
You know what, nvm. Math is too funky for me. lol. last whisper is the counter to armor stacking, dunno where you were going to go with that. the proportional difference it makes to your damage output goes up considerably with higher armor targets.
Yeah I was going to say, but I chose to wait to see where you were goign with it.
It's pretty simple math:
40% off 100 armor vs 40% off 200 armor means your damage is increased by twice as much in the second case with the same item. (You can't think of it in terms of overall damage since if you have the same items in both cases you will do less damage overall in the second case...maybe that's where you were slipping up?)
And just saw second post...
I don't think there's anythign inherently wrong with picking up an early LW, however it's not as effective of an early item as a high AD value item such as IE or BT since early low armor won't have as much effect taken off as late game high armor.
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On March 09 2012 04:54 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 04:50 epoc wrote:
Yeah I agree with making baron hella lot stronger I think they just need to make the reward less powerful tbh. making it more powerful wouldn't change a lot as far as I can tell.
They should copy DotA and make it have an AoE bash or someshit like that so that 1-2 people couldn't do it so easily
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It has that knock back. Should it just use it ever 3 seconds or something?
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As with most items I see an early last whisper as an item you get early if you need it. If for some insane reason the other side has decided to go penta thornmails(it could happen!) and ninja tabi's it's probly a good idea to pick one up sooner then later.
I've always thought of item builds as kind of..silly in that way. Build towards the strength of the champion/to handle whatever the other side is building. Throw in a core item or two and just kind of be flexible. *shrug*
If you want more contention, after a certain time give Dragon more gold/a buff of some kind and make it stronger. Give the map two places of contention(ignoring at this point often easily soloable buff camps)
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Ugh I really don't have my head all the way wrapped but what I mean is that it seems to have similar cost-efficiency as infinity edge assuming you have AD-based spells, except it costs 1500 less gold.
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why is madreds so useless?? i want to get it sometimes but i realize i'll end up getting it to counter just their tank (ie hs's shen against crs)
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On March 09 2012 04:54 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 04:50 epoc wrote:
Yeah I agree with making baron hella lot stronger I think they just need to make the reward less powerful tbh. making it more powerful wouldn't change a lot as far as I can tell.
or they could just stop wriggles raping the shit out of him
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On March 09 2012 04:57 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 04:48 Mogwai wrote:On March 09 2012 04:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
You know what, nvm. Math is too funky for me. lol. last whisper is the counter to armor stacking, dunno where you were going to go with that. the proportional difference it makes to your damage output goes up considerably with higher armor targets. Nah, I get that part, but what I mean is that it seems to be more than cost-effective even on reasonably low-armor target (25% bonus to all physical damage including spells vs 100 armor) so it seems weird that you don't see it more often as the default AD item. I mean, to me it just seems like vs 100 armor, you get something like: 40 AD 25% extra "crit" that affects spells for 2300 gold (I use crit here as an easy reference since 25% extra damage is 25% extra crit without taking I.edge into account) Which seems... I dunno...really good I guess is what I'm trying to say, especially when it saves you the trouble of having to get it later anyways when the enemy DOES get a buttload more armor.
Oh sure, LW is pretty much always good. The question is about opportunity cost vs. different stats though and when you're talking about attacking low armor targets, it's usually better to go for other stats. I dunno what you mean in terms of it being the default AD item though, it's pretty much a part of all AD builds.
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Need a bow to throw them manly spears after awhile.
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I mean as the first ad item you complete, which seemed pretty reasonable in games where building a bf item first would just make your lw qss come too late, and you need some attack speed as well. I almost never see a first item lw rush and I'm sure there are at least some cases that calls for it where people still build their wriggles or bf item firs anyways. This leads me to think that maybe people are not aware if how good lw is without the enemy having to have 200 armor.
But anyways, I think i understand the gist of what i was trying to say, so yay.
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The only time I can remember rushing last whisper was against an Irelia who started cloth armour and got a chain vest on first trip back. It allowed my Renekton to dive her at 6 and worked for me all game.
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On March 09 2012 05:15 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 04:57 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 09 2012 04:48 Mogwai wrote:On March 09 2012 04:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
You know what, nvm. Math is too funky for me. lol. last whisper is the counter to armor stacking, dunno where you were going to go with that. the proportional difference it makes to your damage output goes up considerably with higher armor targets. Nah, I get that part, but what I mean is that it seems to be more than cost-effective even on reasonably low-armor target (25% bonus to all physical damage including spells vs 100 armor) so it seems weird that you don't see it more often as the default AD item. I mean, to me it just seems like vs 100 armor, you get something like: 40 AD 25% extra "crit" that affects spells for 2300 gold (I use crit here as an easy reference since 25% extra damage is 25% extra crit without taking I.edge into account) Which seems... I dunno...really good I guess is what I'm trying to say, especially when it saves you the trouble of having to get it later anyways when the enemy DOES get a buttload more armor. Oh sure, LW is pretty much always good. The question is about opportunity cost vs. different stats though and when you're talking about attacking low armor targets, it's usually better to go for other stats. I dunno what you mean in terms of it being the default AD item though, it's pretty much a part of all AD builds.
Spent 5 minutes making a spreadsheet. Assuming you have 2 dorans and arpen marks/ad quints/standard masteries, LW is slighly better than either BF+pickaxe or BF+crit cloak against targets above 100 armor. LW really needs other items first to take advantage of the scaling effect of arpen against most targets that early in the game.
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EPT
