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On January 04 2012 09:39 UniversalSnip wrote:
So my feeling about graves - who I've only got a few games with - is that if his aoe burst weren't stupidly overpowered he'd actually be really bad. I don't know, his steroid is very comparable to tristana's but it feels like his shorter range makes it way less powerful, his dash is really really short range and smokescreen doesn't do much offensively or defensively. It's pretty much all down to him having ridiculous damage on his Q and R, brings nothing else to the team. If they nerf those to the point they're fair he's just not gonna have anything.
His passive also helps him win early-mid game trades.
On January 04 2012 08:44 Skithiryx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 08:39 Mogwai wrote:On January 04 2012 08:36 koreasilver wrote:
I'm seeing so many Pantheons in both my games and on top level streamed games now. It's strange, because I started playing Pantheon lately after watching/reading Smash's stream/vods/posts and I'm having a lot of fun with him. I wouldn't be surprised if this continues to the point where he's fotm. he already is fotm > 1900 imo. hasn't trickled all the way down yet, but he's a big deal in those games. I've actually found this really weird and kind of annoying now, have been jungling panth since forever and all of a sudden people are actually picking him now, the worst part is they fail so so bad... I really hate it when one of the "less" played champs gets popular, because then they end up nerfed into the ground, heres looking at you Kassadin -.-
You're late to the party buddy :\
Panth is among the most buffed/nerfed/changed champion in all of LoL. On release he was similar to how he is now except with better numbers and a truly global ult. Then Riot massively overbuffed his E so you could basically 1-shot anyone at level 7-9, even earlier if your target is a squishy. Then Riot overnerfed Pantheon by dickin his numbers everywhere. Then Riot nerfed him yet again by making his ulti 5000 range instead of global. Then Riot buffed Panth's numbers and scaling a decent amount and that's the Pantheon you see today.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 04 2012 09:45 Ryuu314 wrote:
You're late to the party buddy :\
Panth is among the most buffed/nerfed/changed champion in all of LoL. On release he was similar to how he is now except with better numbers and a truly global ult. Then Riot massively overbuffed his E so you could basically 1-shot anyone at level 7-9, even earlier if your target is a squishy. Then Riot overnerfed Pantheon by dickin his numbers everywhere. Then Riot nerfed him yet again by making his ulti 5000 range instead of global. Then Riot buffed Panth's numbers and scaling a decent amount and that's the Pantheon you see today.
You missed at least 1 nerf/buff cycle in there. Possibly more, but I wasn't playing when Panth came out.
But I know he's been overbuffed then overnerfed at least twice.
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On January 04 2012 09:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 09:45 Ryuu314 wrote:
You're late to the party buddy :\
Panth is among the most buffed/nerfed/changed champion in all of LoL. On release he was similar to how he is now except with better numbers and a truly global ult. Then Riot massively overbuffed his E so you could basically 1-shot anyone at level 7-9, even earlier if your target is a squishy. Then Riot overnerfed Pantheon by dickin his numbers everywhere. Then Riot nerfed him yet again by making his ulti 5000 range instead of global. Then Riot buffed Panth's numbers and scaling a decent amount and that's the Pantheon you see today.
You missed at least 1 nerf/buff cycle in there. Possibly more, but I wasn't playing when Panth came out. But I know he's been overbuffed then overnerfed at least twice.
Yea probably. I started playing LoL like 2~3 champ releases after he came out.
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On January 04 2012 08:32 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 07:44 TheYango wrote:On January 04 2012 06:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jiji slump is because he plays a style of AP that doesnt fit what people need AP to do anymore. It no longer matters if you can be safe and freefarm- now you need to play safe, freefarm, and be selectively aggressive (or in Regi's case- overaggressive). Jiji having a hard time adapting to a more aggressive playstyle. I don't agree at all that he needs to adapt to this new "playstyle". If there's anything US teams SHOULD have learned from Gamescom, it's that you don't need to shoehorn your team into the "metagame", just because other teams are playing to that style. This is a very flexible game. At the core of it, the only real individual requirement is that you have good mechanics and understand the game. Jiji's mechanics and game understanding are among the best in the game, so this is absolutely not a problem. As far as playstyles are concerned, the only necessities are that 1) there are heroes that support your playstyle (and there are strong passive lategame-oriented APs--Jiji is actually very good at many of them, like Anivia), 2) your team can build a strategy that can fit your playstyle with 4 other heroes that complement them (this shouldn't be that hard, especially since with only 6 bans and no 2nd banning phase, bans are actually fairly limited in their ability to shut down team-building). THAT is the issue I think CLG needs to figure out. They need to figure out how to make their playstyles mesh and develop teams that support that. There is no need for everyone to learn everything--only that they develop a strategy that plays toward what they're good at. This in particular is something that I've been very impressed with TSM's growth on. Someone like The Rain Man is by no means good at every top laner and has a very distinct and flawed playstyle in his own way, but TSM has been able to consistently and comfortably adapt to picking champions for him that mesh with their team's overall playstyle, and have as a result gotten very good results. In terms of team issues, a relevant problem is that too much of CLG likes to farm passively. It's fine to have your carries want to play passive and farm, but that means your more supportive roles need to be able to carry the tempo midgame. On CLG EVERYONE likes to farm. Hotshot likes to farm. Jiji likes to farm. Saint likes to farm. Doublelift farms by nature of his role. This doesn't work. Someone needs to carry the tempo of the game midgame. You can't have 4 1st/2nd position carry heroes. The blame for this can't be shoved on Jiji alone, because it's completely workable to have a lategame-oriented, passively farming AP carry that doesn't carry the midgame tempo, but that means CLG needs to pick up the slack somewhere else. Saying it's Jiji's fault is just trying to stick blame on someone when it's everyone's problem. See, I think wcg korea proved 1 thing- the 2 most important roles in the game are the ap and the jungle simply because they have the most influence on the early mid game. Who cares if the ad or top lane is really farmed if the game is already over? You look at the way that regi and saint worked together- always following each other to blues and dragons- they essentially locked the entire map down. I dont think you can win in this game by having a mid that sits in lane and afk farms anymore. Its essentially the equivalent of not having a jungle. And I think Saint has proven he has what it takes to lock games down with other ap carries, so why cant he do it with jiji? Jiji isnt the only problem in clg- double is terrible at anything that isnt a mindless clickfest (constantly out of position, horrible game sense), chauster is new to support so of course he isnt up to snuff, and hotshot needs to master a few more face roll top lanes (he has udyr, he needs gp, yorick, rumble) and saint needs to work on babysitting them throughout the game to make sure they are all working together. But to say that jiji shouldnt have to adapt as the game evolves is just silly. You play within the style you are presented. mid needs to be mobile, aggressive, and control the map. Jiji needs to get better at doing that or clg has no shot at winning.
Its all up to the shot caller. I'm pretty sure Reginald bullied saint into making plays or whatever. CLG already has too many shot callers so JiJi stays silent and goes with the flow. SV is a terrible shot caller, he likes to afk farm, buy 0 wards, and blame others.HSGG and Chauster are terrible communicators. Everyone needs to be on the same page before CLG starts to have any sort of sucess.
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On January 04 2012 09:45 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 09:39 UniversalSnip wrote:
So my feeling about graves - who I've only got a few games with - is that if his aoe burst weren't stupidly overpowered he'd actually be really bad. I don't know, his steroid is very comparable to tristana's but it feels like his shorter range makes it way less powerful, his dash is really really short range and smokescreen doesn't do much offensively or defensively. It's pretty much all down to him having ridiculous damage on his Q and R, brings nothing else to the team. If they nerf those to the point they're fair he's just not gonna have anything. His passive also helps him win early-mid game trades. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 08:44 Skithiryx wrote:On January 04 2012 08:39 Mogwai wrote:On January 04 2012 08:36 koreasilver wrote:
I'm seeing so many Pantheons in both my games and on top level streamed games now. It's strange, because I started playing Pantheon lately after watching/reading Smash's stream/vods/posts and I'm having a lot of fun with him. I wouldn't be surprised if this continues to the point where he's fotm. he already is fotm > 1900 imo. hasn't trickled all the way down yet, but he's a big deal in those games. I've actually found this really weird and kind of annoying now, have been jungling panth since forever and all of a sudden people are actually picking him now, the worst part is they fail so so bad... I really hate it when one of the "less" played champs gets popular, because then they end up nerfed into the ground, heres looking at you Kassadin -.- You're late to the party buddy :\ Panth is among the most buffed/nerfed/changed champion in all of LoL. On release he was similar to how he is now except with better numbers and a truly global ult. Then Riot massively overbuffed his E so you could basically 1-shot anyone at level 7-9, even earlier if your target is a squishy. Then Riot overnerfed Pantheon by dickin his numbers everywhere. Then Riot nerfed him yet again by making his ulti 5000 range instead of global. Then Riot buffed Panth's numbers and scaling a decent amount and that's the Pantheon you see today.
I've played him at all stages, wasn't specifically directed at Pantheon just more of a qq how "bad" champions all of a sudden get brought to the spotlight and then get nerfed so hard into the ground, Kass was a better example because I think he's finally at the end of it, after his nerfs he's still an insta-ban for whatever stupid reason with everyone running around calling him OP
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On January 04 2012 10:00 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 08:32 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 04 2012 07:44 TheYango wrote:On January 04 2012 06:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jiji slump is because he plays a style of AP that doesnt fit what people need AP to do anymore. It no longer matters if you can be safe and freefarm- now you need to play safe, freefarm, and be selectively aggressive (or in Regi's case- overaggressive). Jiji having a hard time adapting to a more aggressive playstyle. I don't agree at all that he needs to adapt to this new "playstyle". If there's anything US teams SHOULD have learned from Gamescom, it's that you don't need to shoehorn your team into the "metagame", just because other teams are playing to that style. This is a very flexible game. At the core of it, the only real individual requirement is that you have good mechanics and understand the game. Jiji's mechanics and game understanding are among the best in the game, so this is absolutely not a problem. As far as playstyles are concerned, the only necessities are that 1) there are heroes that support your playstyle (and there are strong passive lategame-oriented APs--Jiji is actually very good at many of them, like Anivia), 2) your team can build a strategy that can fit your playstyle with 4 other heroes that complement them (this shouldn't be that hard, especially since with only 6 bans and no 2nd banning phase, bans are actually fairly limited in their ability to shut down team-building). THAT is the issue I think CLG needs to figure out. They need to figure out how to make their playstyles mesh and develop teams that support that. There is no need for everyone to learn everything--only that they develop a strategy that plays toward what they're good at. This in particular is something that I've been very impressed with TSM's growth on. Someone like The Rain Man is by no means good at every top laner and has a very distinct and flawed playstyle in his own way, but TSM has been able to consistently and comfortably adapt to picking champions for him that mesh with their team's overall playstyle, and have as a result gotten very good results. In terms of team issues, a relevant problem is that too much of CLG likes to farm passively. It's fine to have your carries want to play passive and farm, but that means your more supportive roles need to be able to carry the tempo midgame. On CLG EVERYONE likes to farm. Hotshot likes to farm. Jiji likes to farm. Saint likes to farm. Doublelift farms by nature of his role. This doesn't work. Someone needs to carry the tempo of the game midgame. You can't have 4 1st/2nd position carry heroes. The blame for this can't be shoved on Jiji alone, because it's completely workable to have a lategame-oriented, passively farming AP carry that doesn't carry the midgame tempo, but that means CLG needs to pick up the slack somewhere else. Saying it's Jiji's fault is just trying to stick blame on someone when it's everyone's problem. See, I think wcg korea proved 1 thing- the 2 most important roles in the game are the ap and the jungle simply because they have the most influence on the early mid game. Who cares if the ad or top lane is really farmed if the game is already over? You look at the way that regi and saint worked together- always following each other to blues and dragons- they essentially locked the entire map down. I dont think you can win in this game by having a mid that sits in lane and afk farms anymore. Its essentially the equivalent of not having a jungle. And I think Saint has proven he has what it takes to lock games down with other ap carries, so why cant he do it with jiji? Jiji isnt the only problem in clg- double is terrible at anything that isnt a mindless clickfest (constantly out of position, horrible game sense), chauster is new to support so of course he isnt up to snuff, and hotshot needs to master a few more face roll top lanes (he has udyr, he needs gp, yorick, rumble) and saint needs to work on babysitting them throughout the game to make sure they are all working together. But to say that jiji shouldnt have to adapt as the game evolves is just silly. You play within the style you are presented. mid needs to be mobile, aggressive, and control the map. Jiji needs to get better at doing that or clg has no shot at winning. Its all up to the shot caller. I'm pretty sure Reginald bullied saint into making plays or whatever. CLG already has too many shot callers so JiJi stays silent and goes with the flow. SV is a terrible shot caller, he likes to afk farm, buy 0 wards, and blame others.HSGG and Chauster are terrible communicators. Everyone needs to be on the same page before CLG starts to have any sort of sucess.
Unfortunatly for your theory, Saint called everything for CDE and everyone on the team acknowledged that he was the one who carried them throughout that tournament, through play AND calls. So ya. Kinda hard to be a terrible shot caller when you sort of win the tournament.
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On January 04 2012 09:21 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 09:12 Cloud9157 wrote:
I don't get what the big deal about Pantheon is.
He has a ridiculous early game, but he is such garbage once mid game arrives. Also, I don't really like him taking up the top lane spot. Udyr Trundle Irelia and Renekton are all champions that I would rather have top over him. Sustain and amazing mobility, which should be used to jump on enemy carries. Pantheon's kit is just... Meh really. His ult hurts, but if you aren't being CC'd to hell, you can make it out of there easily. If he can land a W on a carry, then yeah, I think its over for that champ, but he has no means of getting close to people.
Thinking Udyr would just shit on this guy, along with Irelia when she gets later into the game. AS>Pantheon. 1) you underestimate burst 2) because you can't ward ult ganks. 3) jungle him sometime also, you really just said panth has no means of getting close? really? compared to like... udyr? really?
1 Given
2. His ult is shit and doesn't reach past mid from top. Like I said, his ult is just shit. Takes far too long for him to land. If anyone being ganked by it stays close enough for him to W right when he lands, then they're doing it wrong.
3. Have yet to see jungle Panth. Heard its good, but I was talking bout top Pantheon.
I guess you have never heard of bear stance from Udyr... Really?
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Are you suggesting that a gap closer is worse than a movespeed steroid? If you let Udyr walk up and bear you then you're doing it wrong as well.
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On January 04 2012 10:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Are you suggesting that a gap closer is worse than a movespeed steroid? If you let Udyr walk up and bear you then you're doing it wrong as well.
I suggest that Panth's is.
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On January 04 2012 10:19 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 10:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Are you suggesting that a gap closer is worse than a movespeed steroid? If you let Udyr walk up and bear you then you're doing it wrong as well. I suggest that Panth's is.
Care to elaborate why is that?
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On January 04 2012 10:08 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 09:21 Kaneh wrote:On January 04 2012 09:12 Cloud9157 wrote:
I don't get what the big deal about Pantheon is.
He has a ridiculous early game, but he is such garbage once mid game arrives. Also, I don't really like him taking up the top lane spot. Udyr Trundle Irelia and Renekton are all champions that I would rather have top over him. Sustain and amazing mobility, which should be used to jump on enemy carries. Pantheon's kit is just... Meh really. His ult hurts, but if you aren't being CC'd to hell, you can make it out of there easily. If he can land a W on a carry, then yeah, I think its over for that champ, but he has no means of getting close to people.
Thinking Udyr would just shit on this guy, along with Irelia when she gets later into the game. AS>Pantheon. 1) you underestimate burst 2) because you can't ward ult ganks. 3) jungle him sometime also, you really just said panth has no means of getting close? really? compared to like... udyr? really? 1 Given 2. His ult is shit and doesn't reach past mid from top. Like I said, his ult is just shit. Takes far too long for him to land. If anyone being ganked by it stays close enough for him to W right when he lands, then they're doing it wrong. 3. Have yet to see jungle Panth. Heard its good, but I was talking bout top Pantheon. I guess you have never heard of bear stance from Udyr... Really?
Actually, as most Panth players know, you can queue up W before his ult lands right after the second circle appears, and it will cast no matter how far they walked.
As for your other claims... well I think it's just due to lack of experience. Most people underestimate Pantheon's ability to shit on people until they play a good Pantheon.
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On January 04 2012 10:06 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 10:00 hacpee wrote:On January 04 2012 08:32 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 04 2012 07:44 TheYango wrote:On January 04 2012 06:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jiji slump is because he plays a style of AP that doesnt fit what people need AP to do anymore. It no longer matters if you can be safe and freefarm- now you need to play safe, freefarm, and be selectively aggressive (or in Regi's case- overaggressive). Jiji having a hard time adapting to a more aggressive playstyle. I don't agree at all that he needs to adapt to this new "playstyle". If there's anything US teams SHOULD have learned from Gamescom, it's that you don't need to shoehorn your team into the "metagame", just because other teams are playing to that style. This is a very flexible game. At the core of it, the only real individual requirement is that you have good mechanics and understand the game. Jiji's mechanics and game understanding are among the best in the game, so this is absolutely not a problem. As far as playstyles are concerned, the only necessities are that 1) there are heroes that support your playstyle (and there are strong passive lategame-oriented APs--Jiji is actually very good at many of them, like Anivia), 2) your team can build a strategy that can fit your playstyle with 4 other heroes that complement them (this shouldn't be that hard, especially since with only 6 bans and no 2nd banning phase, bans are actually fairly limited in their ability to shut down team-building). THAT is the issue I think CLG needs to figure out. They need to figure out how to make their playstyles mesh and develop teams that support that. There is no need for everyone to learn everything--only that they develop a strategy that plays toward what they're good at. This in particular is something that I've been very impressed with TSM's growth on. Someone like The Rain Man is by no means good at every top laner and has a very distinct and flawed playstyle in his own way, but TSM has been able to consistently and comfortably adapt to picking champions for him that mesh with their team's overall playstyle, and have as a result gotten very good results. In terms of team issues, a relevant problem is that too much of CLG likes to farm passively. It's fine to have your carries want to play passive and farm, but that means your more supportive roles need to be able to carry the tempo midgame. On CLG EVERYONE likes to farm. Hotshot likes to farm. Jiji likes to farm. Saint likes to farm. Doublelift farms by nature of his role. This doesn't work. Someone needs to carry the tempo of the game midgame. You can't have 4 1st/2nd position carry heroes. The blame for this can't be shoved on Jiji alone, because it's completely workable to have a lategame-oriented, passively farming AP carry that doesn't carry the midgame tempo, but that means CLG needs to pick up the slack somewhere else. Saying it's Jiji's fault is just trying to stick blame on someone when it's everyone's problem. See, I think wcg korea proved 1 thing- the 2 most important roles in the game are the ap and the jungle simply because they have the most influence on the early mid game. Who cares if the ad or top lane is really farmed if the game is already over? You look at the way that regi and saint worked together- always following each other to blues and dragons- they essentially locked the entire map down. I dont think you can win in this game by having a mid that sits in lane and afk farms anymore. Its essentially the equivalent of not having a jungle. And I think Saint has proven he has what it takes to lock games down with other ap carries, so why cant he do it with jiji? Jiji isnt the only problem in clg- double is terrible at anything that isnt a mindless clickfest (constantly out of position, horrible game sense), chauster is new to support so of course he isnt up to snuff, and hotshot needs to master a few more face roll top lanes (he has udyr, he needs gp, yorick, rumble) and saint needs to work on babysitting them throughout the game to make sure they are all working together. But to say that jiji shouldnt have to adapt as the game evolves is just silly. You play within the style you are presented. mid needs to be mobile, aggressive, and control the map. Jiji needs to get better at doing that or clg has no shot at winning. Its all up to the shot caller. I'm pretty sure Reginald bullied saint into making plays or whatever. CLG already has too many shot callers so JiJi stays silent and goes with the flow. SV is a terrible shot caller, he likes to afk farm, buy 0 wards, and blame others.HSGG and Chauster are terrible communicators. Everyone needs to be on the same page before CLG starts to have any sort of sucess. Unfortunatly for your theory, Saint called everything for CDE and everyone on the team acknowledged that he was the one who carried them throughout that tournament, through play AND calls. So ya. Kinda hard to be a terrible shot caller when you sort of win the tournament.
What Regi bullied Saint? Those two are like bro bros and have similar thought processes when they go for ganks, balls deep. Also it's been said by members of CDE that Regi was the one making the calls. CDE members did say Saint carried them, but Saint was not the one who made the calls. Also by CDE members I think I'm just referring to Dyrus.
Saint even talking about it on his stream, playing with Regi vs Jiji about how good his chemistry with Regi is compared to Jiji.
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On January 04 2012 10:22 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 10:19 Cloud9157 wrote:On January 04 2012 10:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Are you suggesting that a gap closer is worse than a movespeed steroid? If you let Udyr walk up and bear you then you're doing it wrong as well. I suggest that Panth's is. Care to elaborate why is that?
k
I'm going to compare his gap closing ability to the champions I mentioned in my OP (Trundle Irelia Renek Udyr)
Trundle without a doubt has amazing gap closing. Movement speed+reduced CC when on Contaminate.
Irelia has BS that is similar to Panth's W (minus the stun) but her passive makes her even stronger at getting close to a carry.
Renek has double dash.
Udyr is the one I was questioned about. First off, you're fucking udyr. You are tanky. Your MS is rivaled by few champions (Singed ult Trundle contaminate). Pantheon, I feel, doesn't have the best ability to be a top lane bruiser. Not tanky compared to commonly ran top lanes and no form of CC reduction. Like I mentioned, if you land W on a carry, game over, but treat Panth like you would Yi: CC the fuck out of him. If he never gets in range of a carry, he does shit all.
Udyr is much harder for this to apply to, as pretty much every Udyr that I've seen gets Merc Treads, where as pretty much every Pantheon I've seen gets zerkers.
Just my observations. I've had a few Panths on my team, and most of the time they were unable to really do that much damage as a bruiser.
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On January 04 2012 09:32 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 09:11 Seuss wrote:On January 04 2012 08:32 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 04 2012 07:44 TheYango wrote:On January 04 2012 06:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jiji slump is because he plays a style of AP that doesnt fit what people need AP to do anymore. It no longer matters if you can be safe and freefarm- now you need to play safe, freefarm, and be selectively aggressive (or in Regi's case- overaggressive). Jiji having a hard time adapting to a more aggressive playstyle. I don't agree at all that he needs to adapt to this new "playstyle". If there's anything US teams SHOULD have learned from Gamescom, it's that you don't need to shoehorn your team into the "metagame", just because other teams are playing to that style. This is a very flexible game. At the core of it, the only real individual requirement is that you have good mechanics and understand the game. Jiji's mechanics and game understanding are among the best in the game, so this is absolutely not a problem. As far as playstyles are concerned, the only necessities are that 1) there are heroes that support your playstyle (and there are strong passive lategame-oriented APs--Jiji is actually very good at many of them, like Anivia), 2) your team can build a strategy that can fit your playstyle with 4 other heroes that complement them (this shouldn't be that hard, especially since with only 6 bans and no 2nd banning phase, bans are actually fairly limited in their ability to shut down team-building). THAT is the issue I think CLG needs to figure out. They need to figure out how to make their playstyles mesh and develop teams that support that. There is no need for everyone to learn everything--only that they develop a strategy that plays toward what they're good at. This in particular is something that I've been very impressed with TSM's growth on. Someone like The Rain Man is by no means good at every top laner and has a very distinct and flawed playstyle in his own way, but TSM has been able to consistently and comfortably adapt to picking champions for him that mesh with their team's overall playstyle, and have as a result gotten very good results. In terms of team issues, a relevant problem is that too much of CLG likes to farm passively. It's fine to have your carries want to play passive and farm, but that means your more supportive roles need to be able to carry the tempo midgame. On CLG EVERYONE likes to farm. Hotshot likes to farm. Jiji likes to farm. Saint likes to farm. Doublelift farms by nature of his role. This doesn't work. Someone needs to carry the tempo of the game midgame. You can't have 4 1st/2nd position carry heroes. The blame for this can't be shoved on Jiji alone, because it's completely workable to have a lategame-oriented, passively farming AP carry that doesn't carry the midgame tempo, but that means CLG needs to pick up the slack somewhere else. Saying it's Jiji's fault is just trying to stick blame on someone when it's everyone's problem. See, I think wcg korea proved 1 thing- the 2 most important roles in the game are the ap and the jungle simply because they have the most influence on the early mid game. Who cares if the ad or top lane is really farmed if the game is already over? You look at the way that regi and saint worked together- always following each other to blues and dragons- they essentially locked the entire map down. I dont think you can win in this game by having a mid that sits in lane and afk farms anymore. Its essentially the equivalent of not having a jungle. And I think Saint has proven he has what it takes to lock games down with other ap carries, so why cant he do it with jiji? Jiji isnt the only problem in clg- double is terrible at anything that isnt a mindless clickfest (constantly out of position, horrible game sense), chauster is new to support so of course he isnt up to snuff, and hotshot needs to master a few more face roll top lanes (he has udyr, he needs gp, yorick, rumble) and saint needs to work on babysitting them throughout the game to make sure they are all working together. But to say that jiji shouldnt have to adapt as the game evolves is just silly. You play within the style you are presented. mid needs to be mobile, aggressive, and control the map. Jiji needs to get better at doing that or clg has no shot at winning. I'm not sure it's that clear cut. We have a counter-example of sorts in the recent MiG vs EG game a week or so ago. You had MiG's jungle Malphite who had many successful ganks early, complete dragon control and double gp10 very quickly, and on the other end you had Dyrus on jungle Singed who largely farmed and occasionally counter-jungled. Despite all of Malphite's successes he was never very far ahead of Dyrus on gold. In fact, if Malphite had been any less successful he would have fallen significantly behind. That doesn't prove that being super aggressive is bad/wrong, nor does it prove that having a passive jungler is correct. What it does make clear is that both styles are risky. EG could have lost the game thanks to Malphite's successes, and MiG could have been the ones struggling for a come back if Malphite's early ganks had largely failed. Perhaps one is slightly stronger than the other, but I don't believe there's a definitive right/wrong on either. You're viewing them in isolation though. Did all of MiG's lanes not get significantly ahead with all the ganks? Even if the ganks failed did he exert enough pressure for his laners to get ahead even if he didn't? It doesn't matter how much farm your jungler has if all your lanes lost. Even if the jungler turns out slightly behind, if all the laners on MiG come out ahead then you've got a "better" strategy.
I was largely comparing them in isolation in that post. Allow me to reiterate a few important points, and use them to expand the argument.
- 9 minutes into the game Malphite had double gp10. Singed (Dyrus) didn't get any gp10 items until almost 16 minutes into the game.
- By 16 minutes Malphite had succeeded in providing his team dragon once. He also had 6 assists from one gank (3 kills), an assist from helping Morgana's gank, and another gank (2 kills, 1 from a dive). Singed, by comparison, had one assist.
- Despite this, by that point Malphite only had 3300g in items, whereas Singed had 3725g.
Now that, of course, only covers Singed and Malphite. At that same point EG was behind 2500g. However, consider that those 6 kills/assists were worth roughly 2850g, the dragon kill was 975g, the gp10 items were somewhere between 250g and 400g, and EG lost farm from deaths. Factor all that in and MiG could have entered the mid-game 1500g behind.
My point isn't that aggressive play is bad, but that it carries risks. Passive play is the same way. If you're aggressive you risk failing and wasting time and potential farm. If you're passive you risk getting crushed by a well orchestrated aggressive play. Neither is right/wrong, just different viable strategies players/lanes/teams can adopt.
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On January 04 2012 10:33 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 10:22 Shiv. wrote:On January 04 2012 10:19 Cloud9157 wrote:On January 04 2012 10:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Are you suggesting that a gap closer is worse than a movespeed steroid? If you let Udyr walk up and bear you then you're doing it wrong as well. I suggest that Panth's is. Care to elaborate why is that? k I'm going to compare his gap closing ability to the champions I mentioned in my OP (Trundle Irelia Renek Udyr) Trundle without a doubt has amazing gap closing. Movement speed+reduced CC when on Contaminate. Irelia has BS that is similar to Panth's W (minus the stun) but her passive makes her even stronger at getting close to a carry. Renek has double dash. Udyr is the one I was questioned about. First off, you're fucking udyr. You are tanky. Your MS is rivaled by few champions (Singed ult Trundle contaminate). Pantheon, I feel, doesn't have the best ability to be a top lane bruiser. Not tanky compared to commonly ran top lanes and no form of CC reduction. Like I mentioned, if you land W on a carry, game over, but treat Panth like you would Yi: CC the fuck out of him. If he never gets in range of a carry, he does shit all. Udyr is much harder for this to apply to, as pretty much every Udyr that I've seen gets Merc Treads, where as pretty much every Pantheon I've seen gets zerkers. Just my observations. I've had a few Panths on my team, and most of the time they were unable to really do that much damage as a bruiser.
I'm really not trying to be a dick, but your opinions on Panth are hardly valid if they are based on Panths who get Zerkers.
That being said, Ult-W is barely dodgable because it will cast way beyond it's range if you smash W during your ult and what exactly is gonna stop you from Flash -> W?
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On January 04 2012 10:33 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 10:22 Shiv. wrote:On January 04 2012 10:19 Cloud9157 wrote:On January 04 2012 10:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Are you suggesting that a gap closer is worse than a movespeed steroid? If you let Udyr walk up and bear you then you're doing it wrong as well. I suggest that Panth's is. Care to elaborate why is that? k I'm going to compare his gap closing ability to the champions I mentioned in my OP (Trundle Irelia Renek Udyr) Trundle without a doubt has amazing gap closing. Movement speed+reduced CC when on Contaminate. Irelia has BS that is similar to Panth's W (minus the stun) but her passive makes her even stronger at getting close to a carry. Renek has double dash. Udyr is the one I was questioned about. First off, you're fucking udyr. You are tanky. Your MS is rivaled by few champions (Singed ult Trundle contaminate). Pantheon, I feel, doesn't have the best ability to be a top lane bruiser. Not tanky compared to commonly ran top lanes and no form of CC reduction. Like I mentioned, if you land W on a carry, game over, but treat Panth like you would Yi: CC the fuck out of him. If he never gets in range of a carry, he does shit all. Udyr is much harder for this to apply to, as pretty much every Udyr that I've seen gets Merc Treads, where as pretty much every Pantheon I've seen gets zerkers. Just my observations. I've had a few Panths on my team, and most of the time they were unable to really do that much damage as a bruiser.
You're thinking about it wrong though. You don't pick Pantheon when you're looking for a late-game bruiser. If you're looking for someone to dive carries in 5v5s with 6 items, then pick Irelia or something. You pick Pantheon when you want to annihilate someone top, make other lanes fear for their lives, and give your jungler free reign over the top half of the map. Pantheon is not about diving carries, he's about tower diving carries.
aaand his gap closing isn't even bad, if you know how to use his ult he's like Nocturne. Seriously his late game problem is not gap closing, it's his lack of inherent tankiness.
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On January 04 2012 10:30 BlackMagister wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 10:06 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 04 2012 10:00 hacpee wrote:On January 04 2012 08:32 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 04 2012 07:44 TheYango wrote:On January 04 2012 06:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jiji slump is because he plays a style of AP that doesnt fit what people need AP to do anymore. It no longer matters if you can be safe and freefarm- now you need to play safe, freefarm, and be selectively aggressive (or in Regi's case- overaggressive). Jiji having a hard time adapting to a more aggressive playstyle. I don't agree at all that he needs to adapt to this new "playstyle". If there's anything US teams SHOULD have learned from Gamescom, it's that you don't need to shoehorn your team into the "metagame", just because other teams are playing to that style. This is a very flexible game. At the core of it, the only real individual requirement is that you have good mechanics and understand the game. Jiji's mechanics and game understanding are among the best in the game, so this is absolutely not a problem. As far as playstyles are concerned, the only necessities are that 1) there are heroes that support your playstyle (and there are strong passive lategame-oriented APs--Jiji is actually very good at many of them, like Anivia), 2) your team can build a strategy that can fit your playstyle with 4 other heroes that complement them (this shouldn't be that hard, especially since with only 6 bans and no 2nd banning phase, bans are actually fairly limited in their ability to shut down team-building). THAT is the issue I think CLG needs to figure out. They need to figure out how to make their playstyles mesh and develop teams that support that. There is no need for everyone to learn everything--only that they develop a strategy that plays toward what they're good at. This in particular is something that I've been very impressed with TSM's growth on. Someone like The Rain Man is by no means good at every top laner and has a very distinct and flawed playstyle in his own way, but TSM has been able to consistently and comfortably adapt to picking champions for him that mesh with their team's overall playstyle, and have as a result gotten very good results. In terms of team issues, a relevant problem is that too much of CLG likes to farm passively. It's fine to have your carries want to play passive and farm, but that means your more supportive roles need to be able to carry the tempo midgame. On CLG EVERYONE likes to farm. Hotshot likes to farm. Jiji likes to farm. Saint likes to farm. Doublelift farms by nature of his role. This doesn't work. Someone needs to carry the tempo of the game midgame. You can't have 4 1st/2nd position carry heroes. The blame for this can't be shoved on Jiji alone, because it's completely workable to have a lategame-oriented, passively farming AP carry that doesn't carry the midgame tempo, but that means CLG needs to pick up the slack somewhere else. Saying it's Jiji's fault is just trying to stick blame on someone when it's everyone's problem. See, I think wcg korea proved 1 thing- the 2 most important roles in the game are the ap and the jungle simply because they have the most influence on the early mid game. Who cares if the ad or top lane is really farmed if the game is already over? You look at the way that regi and saint worked together- always following each other to blues and dragons- they essentially locked the entire map down. I dont think you can win in this game by having a mid that sits in lane and afk farms anymore. Its essentially the equivalent of not having a jungle. And I think Saint has proven he has what it takes to lock games down with other ap carries, so why cant he do it with jiji? Jiji isnt the only problem in clg- double is terrible at anything that isnt a mindless clickfest (constantly out of position, horrible game sense), chauster is new to support so of course he isnt up to snuff, and hotshot needs to master a few more face roll top lanes (he has udyr, he needs gp, yorick, rumble) and saint needs to work on babysitting them throughout the game to make sure they are all working together. But to say that jiji shouldnt have to adapt as the game evolves is just silly. You play within the style you are presented. mid needs to be mobile, aggressive, and control the map. Jiji needs to get better at doing that or clg has no shot at winning. Its all up to the shot caller. I'm pretty sure Reginald bullied saint into making plays or whatever. CLG already has too many shot callers so JiJi stays silent and goes with the flow. SV is a terrible shot caller, he likes to afk farm, buy 0 wards, and blame others.HSGG and Chauster are terrible communicators. Everyone needs to be on the same page before CLG starts to have any sort of sucess. Unfortunatly for your theory, Saint called everything for CDE and everyone on the team acknowledged that he was the one who carried them throughout that tournament, through play AND calls. So ya. Kinda hard to be a terrible shot caller when you sort of win the tournament. What Regi bullied Saint? Those two are like bro bros and have similar thought processes when they go for ganks, balls deep. Also it's been said by members of CDE that Regi was the one making the calls. CDE members did say Saint carried them, but Saint was not the one who made the calls. Also by CDE members I think I'm just referring to Dyrus.
I never said regi bullied saint. Other person did.
And I dont think anyone ever said Regi made the calls. Everything I heard was that saint was making the calls. Hell, even watching the preliminary rounds Saint was making calls.
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On January 04 2012 10:33 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 10:22 Shiv. wrote:On January 04 2012 10:19 Cloud9157 wrote:On January 04 2012 10:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Are you suggesting that a gap closer is worse than a movespeed steroid? If you let Udyr walk up and bear you then you're doing it wrong as well. I suggest that Panth's is. Care to elaborate why is that? k I'm going to compare his gap closing ability to the champions I mentioned in my OP (Trundle Irelia Renek Udyr) Trundle without a doubt has amazing gap closing. Movement speed+reduced CC when on Contaminate. Irelia has BS that is similar to Panth's W (minus the stun) but her passive makes her even stronger at getting close to a carry. Renek has double dash. Udyr is the one I was questioned about. First off, you're fucking udyr. You are tanky. Your MS is rivaled by few champions (Singed ult Trundle contaminate). Pantheon, I feel, doesn't have the best ability to be a top lane bruiser. Not tanky compared to commonly ran top lanes and no form of CC reduction. Like I mentioned, if you land W on a carry, game over, but treat Panth like you would Yi: CC the fuck out of him. If he never gets in range of a carry, he does shit all. Udyr is much harder for this to apply to, as pretty much every Udyr that I've seen gets Merc Treads, where as pretty much every Pantheon I've seen gets zerkers. Just my observations. I've had a few Panths on my team, and most of the time they were unable to really do that much damage as a bruiser.
Panth gapcloser is by far stronger than any of the ones u mentioned except maybe renek and irelia. If it's not an instant gapcloser you can get kited super easily.
and honestly, if you're basing your observations on pantheons who get zerkers i highly doubt you've seen good pantheons. zerkers are sometimes good on panth for splitpushing, but merc treads are much much better 99% of the time.
Panth isn't worthless mid or even late game. His ability to blow squishies up last throughout the whole game. As panth, you want to be splitpushing and ulting into a teamfight, not acting as a tank or bruiser for your team.
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On January 04 2012 10:40 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 10:33 Cloud9157 wrote:On January 04 2012 10:22 Shiv. wrote:On January 04 2012 10:19 Cloud9157 wrote:On January 04 2012 10:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Are you suggesting that a gap closer is worse than a movespeed steroid? If you let Udyr walk up and bear you then you're doing it wrong as well. I suggest that Panth's is. Care to elaborate why is that? k I'm going to compare his gap closing ability to the champions I mentioned in my OP (Trundle Irelia Renek Udyr) Trundle without a doubt has amazing gap closing. Movement speed+reduced CC when on Contaminate. Irelia has BS that is similar to Panth's W (minus the stun) but her passive makes her even stronger at getting close to a carry. Renek has double dash. Udyr is the one I was questioned about. First off, you're fucking udyr. You are tanky. Your MS is rivaled by few champions (Singed ult Trundle contaminate). Pantheon, I feel, doesn't have the best ability to be a top lane bruiser. Not tanky compared to commonly ran top lanes and no form of CC reduction. Like I mentioned, if you land W on a carry, game over, but treat Panth like you would Yi: CC the fuck out of him. If he never gets in range of a carry, he does shit all. Udyr is much harder for this to apply to, as pretty much every Udyr that I've seen gets Merc Treads, where as pretty much every Pantheon I've seen gets zerkers. Just my observations. I've had a few Panths on my team, and most of the time they were unable to really do that much damage as a bruiser. I'm really not trying to be a dick, but your opinions on Panth are hardly valid if they are based on Panths who get Zerkers. That being said, Ult-W is barely dodgable because it will cast way beyond it's range if you smash W during your ult and what exactly is gonna stop you from Flash -> W?
I'm not sure how you can defend Panth being a bruiser when he gets zerkers. He will get CC raped.
What will stop the gankee from simply flashing away as soon as they see the big circle?
I understand Panth isn't meant to be a bruiser top, but this all goes back to that I'd rather have someone top that will still be of more use than him mid/late game.
edit: Ryuu how is his gap closing possibly better than Trundle's? AoE slow, and Contaminate gives him reduced CC effects and MS. Udyr is better (imo) because he gets a steroid and can survive a lot of the damage thrown at him.
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On January 04 2012 10:48 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 10:33 Cloud9157 wrote:On January 04 2012 10:22 Shiv. wrote:On January 04 2012 10:19 Cloud9157 wrote:On January 04 2012 10:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Are you suggesting that a gap closer is worse than a movespeed steroid? If you let Udyr walk up and bear you then you're doing it wrong as well. I suggest that Panth's is. Care to elaborate why is that? k I'm going to compare his gap closing ability to the champions I mentioned in my OP (Trundle Irelia Renek Udyr) Trundle without a doubt has amazing gap closing. Movement speed+reduced CC when on Contaminate. Irelia has BS that is similar to Panth's W (minus the stun) but her passive makes her even stronger at getting close to a carry. Renek has double dash. Udyr is the one I was questioned about. First off, you're fucking udyr. You are tanky. Your MS is rivaled by few champions (Singed ult Trundle contaminate). Pantheon, I feel, doesn't have the best ability to be a top lane bruiser. Not tanky compared to commonly ran top lanes and no form of CC reduction. Like I mentioned, if you land W on a carry, game over, but treat Panth like you would Yi: CC the fuck out of him. If he never gets in range of a carry, he does shit all. Udyr is much harder for this to apply to, as pretty much every Udyr that I've seen gets Merc Treads, where as pretty much every Pantheon I've seen gets zerkers. Just my observations. I've had a few Panths on my team, and most of the time they were unable to really do that much damage as a bruiser. Panth gapcloser is by far stronger than any of the ones u mentioned except maybe renek and irelia. If it's not an instant gapcloser you can get kited super easily. and honestly, if you're basing your observations on pantheons who get zerkers i highly doubt you've seen good pantheons. zerkers are sometimes good on panth for splitpushing, but merc treads are much much better 99% of the time. Panth isn't worthless mid or even late game. His ability to blow squishies up last throughout the whole game. As panth, you want to be splitpushing and ulting into a teamfight, not acting as a tank or bruiser for your team.
Anyone that watches Loci's stream can tell you that Panth is really strong late game and if built correctly can continue to do well lategame by hopping onto the enemy carry and split pushing
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EPT
