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On January 04 2012 07:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 06:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jiji slump is because he plays a style of AP that doesnt fit what people need AP to do anymore. It no longer matters if you can be safe and freefarm- now you need to play safe, freefarm, and be selectively aggressive (or in Regi's case- overaggressive). Jiji having a hard time adapting to a more aggressive playstyle. I don't agree at all that he needs to adapt to this new "playstyle". If there's anything US teams SHOULD have learned from Gamescom, it's that you don't need to shoehorn your team into the "metagame", just because other teams are playing to that style. This is a very flexible game. At the core of it, the only real individual requirement is that you have good mechanics and understand the game. Jiji's mechanics and game understanding are among the best in the game, so this is absolutely not a problem. As far as playstyles are concerned, the only necessities are that 1) there are heroes that support your playstyle (and there are strong passive lategame-oriented APs--Jiji is actually very good at many of them, like Anivia), 2) your team can build a strategy that can fit your playstyle with 4 other heroes that complement them (this shouldn't be that hard, especially since with only 6 bans and no 2nd banning phase, bans are actually fairly limited in their ability to shut down team-building). THAT is the issue I think CLG needs to figure out. They need to figure out how to make their playstyles mesh and develop teams that support that. There is no need for everyone to learn everything--only that they develop a strategy that plays toward what they're good at. This in particular is something that I've been very impressed with TSM's growth on. Someone like The Rain Man is by no means good at every top laner and has a very distinct and flawed playstyle in his own way, but TSM has been able to consistently and comfortably adapt to picking champions for him that mesh with their team's overall playstyle, and have as a result gotten very good results. In terms of team issues, a relevant problem is that too much of CLG likes to farm passively. It's fine to have your carries want to play passive and farm, but that means your more supportive roles need to be able to carry the tempo midgame. On CLG EVERYONE likes to farm. Hotshot likes to farm. Jiji likes to farm. Saint likes to farm. Doublelift farms by nature of his role. This doesn't work. Someone needs to carry the tempo of the game midgame. You can't have 4 1st/2nd position carry heroes. The blame for this can't be shoved on Jiji alone, because it's completely workable to have a lategame-oriented, passively farming AP carry that doesn't carry the midgame tempo, but that means CLG needs to pick up the slack somewhere else. Saying it's Jiji's fault is just trying to stick blame on someone when it's everyone's problem.
See, I think wcg korea proved 1 thing- the 2 most important roles in the game are the ap and the jungle simply because they have the most influence on the early mid game. Who cares if the ad or top lane is really farmed if the game is already over?
You look at the way that regi and saint worked together- always following each other to blues and dragons- they essentially locked the entire map down.
I dont think you can win in this game by having a mid that sits in lane and afk farms anymore. Its essentially the equivalent of not having a jungle. And I think Saint has proven he has what it takes to lock games down with other ap carries, so why cant he do it with jiji?
Jiji isnt the only problem in clg- double is terrible at anything that isnt a mindless clickfest (constantly out of position, horrible game sense), chauster is new to support so of course he isnt up to snuff, and hotshot needs to master a few more face roll top lanes (he has udyr, he needs gp, yorick, rumble) and saint needs to work on babysitting them throughout the game to make sure they are all working together.
But to say that jiji shouldnt have to adapt as the game evolves is just silly. You play within the style you are presented. mid needs to be mobile, aggressive, and control the map. Jiji needs to get better at doing that or clg has no shot at winning.
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On January 04 2012 06:36 Xevious wrote:
hotshot gets 10k viewers making a couch, what has the world come to
hopefully RIOT doesn't feature a different streamer, wouldn't want to steal viewers from the most deserving streamer in LoL
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I'm seeing so many Pantheons in both my games and on top level streamed games now. It's strange, because I started playing Pantheon lately after watching/reading Smash's stream/vods/posts and I'm having a lot of fun with him. I wouldn't be surprised if this continues to the point where he's fotm.
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On January 04 2012 08:36 koreasilver wrote:
I'm seeing so many Pantheons in both my games and on top level streamed games now. It's strange, because I started playing Pantheon lately after watching/reading Smash's stream/vods/posts and I'm having a lot of fun with him. I wouldn't be surprised if this continues to the point where he's fotm.
he already is fotm > 1900 imo. hasn't trickled all the way down yet, but he's a big deal in those games.
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On January 04 2012 08:39 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 08:36 koreasilver wrote:
I'm seeing so many Pantheons in both my games and on top level streamed games now. It's strange, because I started playing Pantheon lately after watching/reading Smash's stream/vods/posts and I'm having a lot of fun with him. I wouldn't be surprised if this continues to the point where he's fotm. he already is fotm > 1900 imo. hasn't trickled all the way down yet, but he's a big deal in those games.
I've actually found this really weird and kind of annoying now, have been jungling panth since forever and all of a sudden people are actually picking him now, the worst part is they fail so so bad... I really hate it when one of the "less" played champs gets popular, because then they end up nerfed into the ground, heres looking at you Kassadin -.-
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I think it's inevitable that jiji is gonna get pissed at SV one day for all the shit he gives him.
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Anyone here have any tips/instruction for playing Xerath? I just bought him because I know he's strong and is rarely played, but I'm doing very poorly with him.
The thing is I don't FEEL like I'm playing really badly on him, I just get no kills and get jumped on alot, no matter how far back I try to stay. He really doesn't seem to be a burst char, more sustained damage over like 7-10 sec....so even if im set up really far back after a few Q's people come over and rape me. Although I have been playing with teams without much CC
also build advice, seems like drings are always gonna be the opening but after that im going in between Morellos and ROA and Dcap, none of them feel really great.
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On January 04 2012 07:49 -Kato- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 07:07 Mogwai wrote:On January 04 2012 07:06 -Kato- wrote:
I dont like gossiping much but... how long has HS been with this Bekuh girl? About a month? Is he really gonna live with a girl hes been for for so little, and pay everything for her (I suppose)? Nerds tend to be idiots when it comes to girls. that's pretty much par for the course in my experience. I think it's so dumb. I mean if you really like the girl then yea by all means (jiji case?). But being a successful gamer in your early 20s why the fuck would you bring a girl that is relatively new to LIVE with you. Just call her when you want sexytime or whatever! DUMB HOTSHOT.
Yeah I agree with this, I was wondering if he really went to live with her and actually he did. In my opinion that's.. well, it could be a case of getting used, I guess. My friend does this too though, he's actually moved to live with 3 different girls in 3 different cities in the span of 2 years, I can't even imagine what that has cost him. Now he's married though, but ..
Hmm I guess I'll give my opinion on the girl from what I've seen, I think she's relatively cute but nothing special and seems a bit quiet for my likings, I guess she's all right but nothing that makes me think "Wow I wish I was him" like someone like Cassandra does.
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On January 04 2012 06:41 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 06:30 Two_DoWn wrote:
God forbid we have a light hearted joke at the expense of 2 of LoL's biggest personalities. Frankly, I don't care what you do in here, I'm just calling it like I'm seeing it. I see people complaining about stream quality and then they watch 2 retards try to put a couch together and talk about it on forums for multiple pages.
It's okay Mogwai, I still watch your stream
(When I'm not trying to queue into your game :>)
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On January 04 2012 08:54 sob3k wrote:
Anyone here have any tips/instruction for playing Xerath? I just bought him because I know he's strong and is rarely played, but I'm doing very poorly with him.
The thing is I don't FEEL like I'm playing really badly on him, I just get no kills and get jumped on alot, no matter how far back I try to stay. He really doesn't seem to be a burst char, more sustained damage over like 7-10 sec....so even if im set up really far back after a few Q's people come over and rape me. Although I have been playing with teams without much CC
also build advice, seems like drings are always gonna be the opening but after that im going in between Morellos and ROA and Dcap, none of them feel really great.
2 Dorans -> Deathcap -> Void -> whatever, Revolver might be okay and Rylai could work as well etc.
Gameplay: First check if you have ulti, if you do you E R Q RR a champion of your choosing and instantly kill them. If you don't you just spam Q and push non-stop with wards.
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On January 04 2012 08:54 sob3k wrote:
Anyone here have any tips/instruction for playing Xerath? I just bought him because I know he's strong and is rarely played, but I'm doing very poorly with him.
The thing is I don't FEEL like I'm playing really badly on him, I just get no kills and get jumped on alot, no matter how far back I try to stay. He really doesn't seem to be a burst char, more sustained damage over like 7-10 sec....so even if im set up really far back after a few Q's people come over and rape me. Although I have been playing with teams without much CC
also build advice, seems like drings are always gonna be the opening but after that im going in between Morellos and ROA and Dcap, none of them feel really great.
Xerath sustained damage? He has really high burst with his ult, if you're not bursting people down with his ult that's probably what you're doing wrong.
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On January 04 2012 08:32 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 07:44 TheYango wrote:On January 04 2012 06:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jiji slump is because he plays a style of AP that doesnt fit what people need AP to do anymore. It no longer matters if you can be safe and freefarm- now you need to play safe, freefarm, and be selectively aggressive (or in Regi's case- overaggressive). Jiji having a hard time adapting to a more aggressive playstyle. I don't agree at all that he needs to adapt to this new "playstyle". If there's anything US teams SHOULD have learned from Gamescom, it's that you don't need to shoehorn your team into the "metagame", just because other teams are playing to that style. This is a very flexible game. At the core of it, the only real individual requirement is that you have good mechanics and understand the game. Jiji's mechanics and game understanding are among the best in the game, so this is absolutely not a problem. As far as playstyles are concerned, the only necessities are that 1) there are heroes that support your playstyle (and there are strong passive lategame-oriented APs--Jiji is actually very good at many of them, like Anivia), 2) your team can build a strategy that can fit your playstyle with 4 other heroes that complement them (this shouldn't be that hard, especially since with only 6 bans and no 2nd banning phase, bans are actually fairly limited in their ability to shut down team-building). THAT is the issue I think CLG needs to figure out. They need to figure out how to make their playstyles mesh and develop teams that support that. There is no need for everyone to learn everything--only that they develop a strategy that plays toward what they're good at. This in particular is something that I've been very impressed with TSM's growth on. Someone like The Rain Man is by no means good at every top laner and has a very distinct and flawed playstyle in his own way, but TSM has been able to consistently and comfortably adapt to picking champions for him that mesh with their team's overall playstyle, and have as a result gotten very good results. In terms of team issues, a relevant problem is that too much of CLG likes to farm passively. It's fine to have your carries want to play passive and farm, but that means your more supportive roles need to be able to carry the tempo midgame. On CLG EVERYONE likes to farm. Hotshot likes to farm. Jiji likes to farm. Saint likes to farm. Doublelift farms by nature of his role. This doesn't work. Someone needs to carry the tempo of the game midgame. You can't have 4 1st/2nd position carry heroes. The blame for this can't be shoved on Jiji alone, because it's completely workable to have a lategame-oriented, passively farming AP carry that doesn't carry the midgame tempo, but that means CLG needs to pick up the slack somewhere else. Saying it's Jiji's fault is just trying to stick blame on someone when it's everyone's problem. See, I think wcg korea proved 1 thing- the 2 most important roles in the game are the ap and the jungle simply because they have the most influence on the early mid game. Who cares if the ad or top lane is really farmed if the game is already over? You look at the way that regi and saint worked together- always following each other to blues and dragons- they essentially locked the entire map down. I dont think you can win in this game by having a mid that sits in lane and afk farms anymore. Its essentially the equivalent of not having a jungle. And I think Saint has proven he has what it takes to lock games down with other ap carries, so why cant he do it with jiji? Jiji isnt the only problem in clg- double is terrible at anything that isnt a mindless clickfest (constantly out of position, horrible game sense), chauster is new to support so of course he isnt up to snuff, and hotshot needs to master a few more face roll top lanes (he has udyr, he needs gp, yorick, rumble) and saint needs to work on babysitting them throughout the game to make sure they are all working together. But to say that jiji shouldnt have to adapt as the game evolves is just silly. You play within the style you are presented. mid needs to be mobile, aggressive, and control the map. Jiji needs to get better at doing that or clg has no shot at winning.
I'm not sure it's that clear cut. We have a counter-example of sorts in the recent MiG vs EG game a week or so ago. You had MiG's jungle Malphite who had many successful ganks early, complete dragon control and double gp10 very quickly, and on the other end you had Dyrus on jungle Singed who largely farmed and occasionally counter-jungled. Despite all of Malphite's successes he was never very far ahead of Dyrus on gold. In fact, if Malphite had been any less successful he would have fallen significantly behind.
That doesn't prove that being super aggressive is bad/wrong, nor does it prove that having a passive jungler is correct. What it does make clear is that both styles are risky. EG could have lost the game thanks to Malphite's successes, and MiG could have been the ones struggling for a come back if Malphite's early ganks had largely failed. Perhaps one is slightly stronger than the other, but I don't believe there's a definitive right/wrong on either.
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I don't get what the big deal about Pantheon is.
He has a ridiculous early game, but he is such garbage once mid game arrives. Also, I don't really like him taking up the top lane spot. Udyr Trundle Irelia and Renekton are all champions that I would rather have top over him. Sustain and amazing mobility, which should be used to jump on enemy carries. Pantheon's kit is just... Meh really. His ult hurts, but if you aren't being CC'd to hell, you can make it out of there easily. If he can land a W on a carry, then yeah, I think its over for that champ, but he has no means of getting close to people.
Thinking Udyr would just shit on this guy, along with Irelia when she gets later into the game. AS>Pantheon.
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Well all it takes is a flash W on say the AP carry and beat him down with the stick, AD probably has cleanse and/or QSS so that would be kinda waste.
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Haha Huk is playing LoL on Orb's stream
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On January 04 2012 09:12 Cloud9157 wrote:
I don't get what the big deal about Pantheon is.
He has a ridiculous early game, but he is such garbage once mid game arrives. Also, I don't really like him taking up the top lane spot. Udyr Trundle Irelia and Renekton are all champions that I would rather have top over him. Sustain and amazing mobility, which should be used to jump on enemy carries. Pantheon's kit is just... Meh really. His ult hurts, but if you aren't being CC'd to hell, you can make it out of there easily. If he can land a W on a carry, then yeah, I think its over for that champ, but he has no means of getting close to people.
Thinking Udyr would just shit on this guy, along with Irelia when she gets later into the game. AS>Pantheon.
1) you underestimate burst
2) because you can't ward ult ganks.
3) jungle him sometime
also, you really just said panth has no means of getting close? really? compared to like... udyr? really?
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United States47024 Posts
On January 04 2012 08:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont think you can win in this game by having a mid that sits in lane and afk farms anymore. Its essentially the equivalent of not having a jungle. And I think Saint has proven he has what it takes to lock games down with other ap carries, so why cant he do it with jiji?
I don't think I need to convince anyone that Saint is a fairly farmy jungler. He's fairly deliberate with ganks, and generally doesn't sacrifice too much of his own farm to put lanes ahead. He'll take opportunities when they're there but he almost never just camps a lane for the sake of getting that particular lane ahead.
Naturally, this works with Regi well because Regi can carry the early-midgame tempo while Saint farms a bit more. They'd go together to big objectives, but I think it was fairly clear that Regi was the one really carrying the tempo, even with Saint making the calls. With OddOne, Regi and OddOne work together on this, and it works out because they can rely on Chaox/TRM to pull through lategame.
The problem with Saint+Jiji (or rather, Saint+Jiji+Hotshot) is that NONE of them like making big midgame plays that direct the flow of the game. They all like to farm fairly hard. The blame gets put on Jiji because this is conventionally the role of the AP, but this is by no means set in stone--and it is just as often the jungler who does it. It's not anyone's fault, but it's a team-building issue. Someone needs to get used to making midgame plays--but it doesn't HAVE to be Jiji. It could Saint, or Hotshot, or even Doublelift. They just need to make it work, and have someone do it.
On January 04 2012 08:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
But to say that jiji shouldnt have to adapt as the game evolves is just silly. You play within the style you are presented. mid needs to be mobile, aggressive, and control the map. Jiji needs to get better at doing that or clg has no shot at winning.
CLG has to adapt together as a team. Either this means Jiji learning to cover his own weaknesses, or just as much CLG learning to work around them as a team.
Honestly, I think the latter is the more realistic way to do it, and it's supported by the recent success of TSM (and to a lesser extent, EG). Remember back when there was a huge argument about Rain Man as a player? Rain Man's play definitely has some flaws, especially when it comes to his ability or lack thereof with certain top laners--but a large part of TSM's success has not been TRM magically fixing all of his problems as a player, but TSM being able to work around their individual flaws and play in a way that fits them.
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On January 04 2012 09:11 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 08:32 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 04 2012 07:44 TheYango wrote:On January 04 2012 06:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jiji slump is because he plays a style of AP that doesnt fit what people need AP to do anymore. It no longer matters if you can be safe and freefarm- now you need to play safe, freefarm, and be selectively aggressive (or in Regi's case- overaggressive). Jiji having a hard time adapting to a more aggressive playstyle. I don't agree at all that he needs to adapt to this new "playstyle". If there's anything US teams SHOULD have learned from Gamescom, it's that you don't need to shoehorn your team into the "metagame", just because other teams are playing to that style. This is a very flexible game. At the core of it, the only real individual requirement is that you have good mechanics and understand the game. Jiji's mechanics and game understanding are among the best in the game, so this is absolutely not a problem. As far as playstyles are concerned, the only necessities are that 1) there are heroes that support your playstyle (and there are strong passive lategame-oriented APs--Jiji is actually very good at many of them, like Anivia), 2) your team can build a strategy that can fit your playstyle with 4 other heroes that complement them (this shouldn't be that hard, especially since with only 6 bans and no 2nd banning phase, bans are actually fairly limited in their ability to shut down team-building). THAT is the issue I think CLG needs to figure out. They need to figure out how to make their playstyles mesh and develop teams that support that. There is no need for everyone to learn everything--only that they develop a strategy that plays toward what they're good at. This in particular is something that I've been very impressed with TSM's growth on. Someone like The Rain Man is by no means good at every top laner and has a very distinct and flawed playstyle in his own way, but TSM has been able to consistently and comfortably adapt to picking champions for him that mesh with their team's overall playstyle, and have as a result gotten very good results. In terms of team issues, a relevant problem is that too much of CLG likes to farm passively. It's fine to have your carries want to play passive and farm, but that means your more supportive roles need to be able to carry the tempo midgame. On CLG EVERYONE likes to farm. Hotshot likes to farm. Jiji likes to farm. Saint likes to farm. Doublelift farms by nature of his role. This doesn't work. Someone needs to carry the tempo of the game midgame. You can't have 4 1st/2nd position carry heroes. The blame for this can't be shoved on Jiji alone, because it's completely workable to have a lategame-oriented, passively farming AP carry that doesn't carry the midgame tempo, but that means CLG needs to pick up the slack somewhere else. Saying it's Jiji's fault is just trying to stick blame on someone when it's everyone's problem. See, I think wcg korea proved 1 thing- the 2 most important roles in the game are the ap and the jungle simply because they have the most influence on the early mid game. Who cares if the ad or top lane is really farmed if the game is already over? You look at the way that regi and saint worked together- always following each other to blues and dragons- they essentially locked the entire map down. I dont think you can win in this game by having a mid that sits in lane and afk farms anymore. Its essentially the equivalent of not having a jungle. And I think Saint has proven he has what it takes to lock games down with other ap carries, so why cant he do it with jiji? Jiji isnt the only problem in clg- double is terrible at anything that isnt a mindless clickfest (constantly out of position, horrible game sense), chauster is new to support so of course he isnt up to snuff, and hotshot needs to master a few more face roll top lanes (he has udyr, he needs gp, yorick, rumble) and saint needs to work on babysitting them throughout the game to make sure they are all working together. But to say that jiji shouldnt have to adapt as the game evolves is just silly. You play within the style you are presented. mid needs to be mobile, aggressive, and control the map. Jiji needs to get better at doing that or clg has no shot at winning. I'm not sure it's that clear cut. We have a counter-example of sorts in the recent MiG vs EG game a week or so ago. You had MiG's jungle Malphite who had many successful ganks early, complete dragon control and double gp10 very quickly, and on the other end you had Dyrus on jungle Singed who largely farmed and occasionally counter-jungled. Despite all of Malphite's successes he was never very far ahead of Dyrus on gold. In fact, if Malphite had been any less successful he would have fallen significantly behind. That doesn't prove that being super aggressive is bad/wrong, nor does it prove that having a passive jungler is correct. What it does make clear is that both styles are risky. EG could have lost the game thanks to Malphite's successes, and MiG could have been the ones struggling for a come back if Malphite's early ganks had largely failed. Perhaps one is slightly stronger than the other, but I don't believe there's a definitive right/wrong on either.
You're viewing them in isolation though. Did all of MiG's lanes not get significantly ahead with all the ganks? Even if the ganks failed did he exert enough pressure for his laners to get ahead even if he didn't? It doesn't matter how much farm your jungler has if all your lanes lost. Even if the jungler turns out slightly behind, if all the laners on MiG come out ahead then you've got a "better" strategy.
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To be fair, I dont actually think TRM is flawed as a player. He does what he needs to do, so long as he isnt high.
And you cannot include top lane as part of the aggressive/non aggressive bit. It is to far away to make a difference. Mid has to be able to control both buffs and dragon, as well as lend support to bot. So really it IS a saint-jiji thing.
As much as saint does like to farm, he does gank quite a bit. I would almost argue that he tends to gank just as much if not more than other top jungles, with the exception of TOO playing maokai. He just tends to be very good at optimizing his jungle farm and lane farm. His lee sin is DEADLY, just look at what he did to everyone in Korea. Gank all day, every day, win world championship.
Also I dont think you can play around that weakness. It is VERY hard to go into every game acknowledging that you are going to completely give up map control from the very get go. You just cant win like that. Even late game comps revolve around being able to exert at least token defense on your own map objectives, and jiji/saint arent even able to accomplish that much.
You can build late game comps that favor heavy farming sure. But you CANNOT abandon the map the way jiji does and expect to continue to win. He needs to change. Even if it isnt becoming regi aggressive, he does need to become more mobile.
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9871 Posts
So my feeling about graves - who I've only got a few games with - is that if his aoe burst weren't stupidly overpowered he'd actually be really bad. I don't know, his steroid is very comparable to tristana's but it feels like his shorter range makes it way less powerful, his dash is really really short range and smokescreen doesn't do much offensively or defensively. It's pretty much all down to him having ridiculous damage on his Q and R, brings nothing else to the team. If they nerf those to the point they're fair he's just not gonna have anything.
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EPT
