[Patch 1.0.0.131: Viktor] General Discussion - Page 149

On January 11 2012 04:23 turdburgler wrote:


so you suggest what to punish people more for failing ganks? more jungle xp in general? less of it on the buff mobs? less xp but even easier / faster packs?

since its not going to go back to how it was before so even if you hate the current version asking for the old version is just wasting your own time :D

On January 11 2012 04:31 clickrush wrote:
your team deserves to lose when you dont get help while enemy jungler camps lane constantly. things like this make the game much more interesting to watch and to play imo. the more active the junglers the better.

On January 11 2012 04:18 Ryuu314 wrote:

Cassiopeia is a solid AP. Fiddlesticks as an AP solo is pretty iffy; he has terrible laning until he gets a good amount of levels at which point he becomes a monster 1v1. Getting to that point against good players will be extremely hard, but at lower levels it works just fine. AP Ezrael is a waste. Mundo is bad. Lee sin is good in lane; he's still okay in jungle but because of changes you gotta get lots of good ganks off or you will fall behind very hard. Nocturne is a great jungler. Karma is not a support; if you want to play Karma play her AP mid. She has terrible base values and supports need somewhat high base values. A good support to pick up would be from the following: Soraka, Sona, Janna, Leona, Nunu, Alistar, Taric.

Talon/Akali are fun, but have a decently high skill cap. If you want a strong late-game carry, Urgot's not the best choice. He's a lane dominator that's also really strong mid-game. Urgot falls off late game compared to other AD carries. The strongest late-game AD carries are probably Vayne, Tristana, Kog'maw (but he fell out of favor).

On January 11 2012 04:12 bmn wrote:
Can you guys give me any tips on whether the following are decent choices to stick to when starting to play ranked games?
The two questions I need help with:
- Are these champs decent enough (at low skill level) to make them viable picks?
- Is this selection of champs well-rounded enough for draft games, or am I missing any important role?

Characters I was thinking of sticking to for now:

AP: Cassiopeia, Fiddlesticks, maybe also Ezrael (yes, AP, not AD)
AD, off-tank: Dr. Mundo, Lee Sin
Jungler: Lee Sin, Nocturne
Support: Karma

Also, what should the first pick in draft pick usually be? The carry? Does it matter?
Does strategic counter-picking matter at low ELOs and in placement, or should I just try to pick whatever I am best at and what works well with our team?

On January 11 2012 04:39 Mogwai wrote:




sorry but you guys just don't get it and I'm not going to waste my time with a real response. if you think the game is better off now than it was before, we have nowhere to go. I think what I'm asking for is pretty damn clear, if you haven't figured it out yet, IT'S AN ACTUAL GAMEPLAY DECISION INSTEAD OF CAMP LANE vs. LOSE THE GAME.

On January 11 2012 04:44 clickrush wrote:
I think your raging about how the game is right now, despite knowing that it evolves constantly and that there are probably alot of things that will change just because players figure out the new ways of playing. I just expect alot more problem solving oriented thinking (sry don't know the right english term for this) from a player like you.

On January 11 2012 04:34 Terranasaur wrote:


Congratulations! Also, no need to apologize for a long post. Makes it easier to offer advice.

If your main goal is to win games and increase ELO (which might not be a bad strategy for your placement matches) you'll want to learn some champs considered to be Pubstompers. Tryn, Shaco, Sion, Xin, ect... and take them whenever you can. A good rule of thumb would be, whenever you see a champ that is always banned, not get banned, you want that champ on your team.

As for your specific roles:

Cass is a great AP. Fiddle can be really strong. I'd suggest you also learn Ryze. His Sustained damage is similar to Cass. You'll also want to learn a strong burst caster. I'd suggest Brand or Xerath. Knowing those champs will give you more flexibility with your picks.

AD Off Tank- Lee can be good here, but is better in jungle. While I think Mundo is viable, its just really rare to see a good Mundo so people tend to think of this as a troll pick. Try to pick up GP. He's very strong in this roll. Irelia and Nasus are great as well. And Jax. Jax is a sentimental pick for me. One of my first and favorite champs.

Jungler: No reason to not own Rammus. If you get him in a draft game, (rare, but it happens) you can completely wreck enemy teams. Udyr would be another great champ to learn. He can also be played as a strong top laner. Very viable. Lee and Nocturne are good picks as well. Both have great gank potential.

Support: Karma is not the most traditional, but is a good pick. If you like non traditional, try Blitz. However, I think this role is one where the common picks are the best. Soraka/Sona God Tier. Alistar is also very strong and a lot of fun. Headbutting fools with a huge Minotaur is very satisfying.

For ranged AD: Learn Urgot over Vayne. There are already plenty of Vaynes around. I'd also suggest Twitch. He's a lot of fun... and simply wrecks people that are unprepared.

As for counterpicking, I would say do what you are strongest at first, or what you are trying to learn. The advantage you gain by a solid counterpick probably won't outweigh the disadvantage of playing a champ you are less familiar with. When this changes, you know it is time to counterpick.

On January 11 2012 04:07 Brees wrote:


nah man if your good with her she wins games really easily. flash ulti with hourglass 5 man stun is broken whether you want to admit it or not

ook, they saw a passivity problem and they approached it the wrong way. Here are the real passivity problems:
1. High sustain and/or high difficulty gank targets @ top lane who scale well with farm into late game (Yorrick, Nidalee, Trynd, Riven, GP)
2. Blue buff on APs who can clear creep waves quickly (zzzzz, instafarming every wave in the shortest lane, so exciting...)
3. No way to gank bot lane vs. a good support

On January 11 2012 04:41 bmn wrote:


Thank you, you reply is very helpful!

I noticed the same thing with Lee Sin, I often fall behind quickly when jungling if my first ganks don't work out. When laning, he's really best as an off-tank DPS, not really that viable as pure DPS (carry) late-game, right? Doesn't that usually mean that he'll be kinda duplicating the role that the jungler often has late-game?

Thanks, I guess I'll mostly stick to Cass/Fiddle for AP then. Kassadin seems good too, but I didn't enjoy him as much.

Why does everybody hate on Mundo :[ He seems fun, and I enjoy playing relatively obscure characters -- but if he really is that bad, I'll stop (seemed to work out fine the first few games).

Do any of the supports you mentioned have a more "active"/flexible role than e.g. Soraka? I like Karma because of that (even if her buffs are weaker); I really don't think I'd enjoy playing Soraka/Sona, but I don't know what playing Janna/Leona is like in comparison.

How does Talon compare to Urgot for usefulness in late-game team fights? Would AD Ezrael be a good choice to give me a strong late-game carry option?

(Akali seems a lot more situational and more gank/chase oriented; she seems to be much less useful when the other team has detection/oracle in team fights.)

Thanks again for all the info.

On January 11 2012 04:38 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
morgs just ungankable and farms really easily. Don't waste time ganking her. There are quite a few champions who scale better into late game than her on equal farm. The ult is very strong though, especially with zhonyas.

Once her binding misses, you have a huge window of opportunity to harass too. AD casters and AD's in general hit through her shield. Characters with silences like even cho or kass can silence her before she uses her shield to harass her. It's hard to zone in mid though, and she can usually heal harass if you let her get off one good tormented soil. If you can clear waves faster than morgana, then her tormented soil will miss. That or the wave will push to tower, causing morgana to at least miss a few cs.


For most matchups, morgana isn't overpowered, just annoying since you can't do anything to her.
For others she will always push you to tower meaning you'll end up with half the cs come late game.

On January 11 2012 05:01 Sandster wrote:
There's nothing wrong with picking champions you like, Mundo and Urgot included. The reason to first learn standard champions is to understand the role first.

On January 11 2012 04:07 Mogwai wrote:

I'm complaining that I can't play an aggressive laner top because I will just get camped. You know what the net impact on my character selection is due to the new changes? no more pantheon top, no more jarman top. now I only pick assholes who have absurd sustain or can play completely passively in lane and still manage to succeed. I'm not even trying to play 1v1 matchups anymore because you'll get burnt for that more often than not. It's more worthwhile to only make plays with your jungler now because chances are the opposing jungler is camping you too, because seriously, what the fuck else is he going to do?

Look, they saw a passivity problem and they approached it the wrong way. Here are the real passivity problems:
1. High sustain and/or high difficulty gank targets @ top lane who scale well with farm into late game (Yorrick, Nidalee, Trynd, Riven, GP)
2. Blue buff on APs who can clear creep waves quickly (zzzzz, instafarming every wave in the shortest lane, so exciting...)
3. No way to gank bot lane vs. a good support

FFS, the part of the game that needed the least work in terms of active play was the jungle, and it's where they put all their effort. Before the change, golems -> level 2 gank a lane was a viable and popular strategy. Early ganks were all over the place and they were strong, but back then they had an oppurtunity cost in terms of how they set you back compared to someone who was actually farming the jungle and possibly counterjungling your jungle. Fast 6 routes and early dragon threats were legitimate threats from a jungler who chose not to do early gank, it introduced an interesting gameplay decision, but now if you don't gank early and often, you're still lucky to get a level on someone who doesn't even succeed with their jungle ganks and even without kills, the level of lane presence they provide to their lanes while you farm the jungle will typically at worse break even in terms of the free cs they give their team vs. the cs you get from jungling.

On January 11 2012 04:53 Ryuu314 wrote:
Laning Lee sin can afford to go for more expensive itemization than jungle Lee sin. Lee sin has some really great scaling so while Warmogs+Atmas is pretty core, if you're ahead you build your lead quite well with some damage items like Last whisper or bloodthirster. But Lee sin is mostly a tanky dps/bruiser champ and should be played as such.

Mundo simply isn't a very good champion. He does okay to a certain skill level, but his kit just isn't very strong. If he's working for you that's fine, but don't expect to get very high level with mundo. There's this one guy, kmax9, who has over 2k ranked games played with Mundo over the course of season 1 and 2 and he has yet to break 1500 elo. Granted, he could just be really bad (which I think he is), but 2k games of experience with one champ is nothing to scoff at.

If you want a more flexible/active support, I'd go for Alistar, Blitzcrank, and Leona. Janna and Nunu can be pretty aggressive too depending on the matchup. Sona can actually be really really aggressive since she has insane early game burst with her Q and passive.

Talon and Urgot are different roles. Talon is an assassin that tries to insta-gib the enemy squishies, whereas Urgot is an AD carry that focuses on putting out sustained damage on anyone he can reach. Akali is pretty situational, but all assassins are rather situational. This includes Talon and Katarina. They're also very high skill cap; in the hands of a good player, they can wreck absolute havoc, but in lesser skilled hands they have a tendency to dive in and blow up instantly, doing no damage. AD Ez can be a good carry, but his late-game is a bit weaker compared to say Vayne/Trist/Kog because he relies on landing his skillshots to do most of the damage.

EDIT: Non-conventional champions/play works, but it's always a risk. Things are conventional/part of the meta because they work and are proven to work well. That being said, non-conventional strategies and picks are part of what causes the metagame to shift, so they're not all bad. If you understand what you're doing and do your role well, anything can work to a certain extent.

On January 11 2012 04:39 Mogwai wrote:




sorry but you guys just don't get it and I'm not going to waste my time with a real response. if you think the game is better off now than it was before, we have nowhere to go. I think what I'm asking for is pretty damn clear, if you haven't figured it out yet, IT'S AN ACTUAL GAMEPLAY DECISION INSTEAD OF CAMP LANE vs. LOSE THE GAME.

On January 11 2012 05:18 turdburgler wrote:


i do get it. why are you so angry? your spending 90% of your post saying this is shit this is shit this is shit then going with the vague, they dont have to make any choices. how can we discuss how to do it differently if you arent outlining how the choices arent big enough and then how to change them etc?

if camping lanes is just so effective then how about talking about adjusting lane width, or the sight around the river and the bushes that exist there. maybe increase starting gold to allow for a dorans + ward opening etc etc. the fact is i dont think anyone sees riot just flat out reverting the changes so you need to be pragmatic.