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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On November 22 2011 04:09 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:01 Two_DoWn wrote:
KK- Fizz conclusions pt 2:
W does not scale with ap. At all. Ignore the little green numbers next to the damage. It doesnt actually scale with anything. Here is why- the skill does X damage over 5 seconds. However, all it does on subsequent hits is reset the duration. So any ap you stack on the skill is essentially reduced to 1/5- the extra tick that you get for the next hit extending the duration by a second or whatever your aspeed is. Instead, its much better to just go ad- you do more damage by just hitting someone harder than you do getting a bit of extra damage on that last tick of w.
The extension of this is that there is no reason for him to go ap whatsoever. Sure, his ratios are pretty damn good. The problem with ap fizz is he is entirely front loaded. He hits r, q, and e (if you feel comfortable wasting your escape for damage, which I think is a shitty play in most cases). Then he pokes with w. And as I've already said, his w doesnt actually scale with ap. So instead you end up bursting, then not actually having any damage with which to finish anyone off, since your cds are about 6 seconds on q and e.
So if his w doesnt scale, the question becomes how do we MAKE it scale, or at least appear to. I think the answer is ad. Every time you poke someone, you do your normal damage, then the w damage. But if w doesnt scale, the only way to make your attacks hurt more is to increase the damage that you do physically.
And if you look at the rest of his kit, he is BUILT to be a tanky dps who finds a target, gets to them, forces them from the fight, then bounces to another target. q and e give him an extreme amount of fight mobility, and r is essentially a hard snare- the movespeed reduction is so great there is no way for the enemy to run from you. So you just q to them, poke them with your stick and prevent anyone else from healing them or for lifesteal letting them heal themselves.
As for builds- the most effective opener I have found so far is whatever you start with (boots, cloth) and then just getting 2 dblades. They give everything you want in lane, extra damage for w, extra health, some sustain, and are hella cheap to boot. They also have the happy coincidence of being completely lane independent- you can get them mid and not feel stupid vs an ap, and top and not feel stupid vs someone like nasus. From there I think the way to go is wits and then tanky- I know frozen mallet is really good, but I want to give triforce a shot and see if that helps more. W not scaling is wrong. It definitely scales. The passive portion doesn't scale very well, you're right, but you can't ignore the active scaling (0.35) on W. When combined with his Q, it's a total of 1.1 AP scaling for just one combo. Every auto after is 0.35 scaling on top of everything else.
The active and passive both have the same scaling, .35. The problem with ap is the WAY that it scales. Because its flat damage spread over 3 seconds, in a non stacking form, the more ap you have, the LESS you want to hit 1 person. Full ap fizz should only ever hit a person 1 time, wait 3 seconds, then hit them again. Doing anything else is a waste of damage. Unfortunately, in my mind, fizz is perfect for sticking to 1 person and chasing them from the fight, making ap a terrible way to go in order to achieve that aim.
As for ROA- I actually do not like that as a starting item because it doenst give anywhere near the same lane power (looking at a fast cata) that 2 dblades does, or even 2 drings.
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On November 22 2011 04:46 Alzadar wrote:
Is there any logic behind Archangel's stacking? I just played a game against an Anivia who went Boots -> 3 Archangel's
It seems to me that after the first Archangel, you could either go Rod of Ages, which would give less AP but much much more durability and utility, or you could get a Deathcap which would give you more AP than a second Archangel. So if you're going for pure damage, Deathcap makes more sense than Archangel, and if you want survivability then Rod will give you decent enough AP as well.
The 3rd AA is even more ridiculous, at that point a Rod of Ages will actually give you MORE ability power than the Archangel, on top of all the other advantages of a Rod.
I did the numbers awhile ago, I don't remember what thread it's on. Maybe Shikyo QQ thread. But stacking three AA gives you more AP than Deathcap, Voidstaff, and Rod of Ages.
For raw AP stacking AA gives you more AP than almost any combo. It's still stupid because you have no utility and you need to have a fully charged Tear but in terms of just straight up AP you get a lot more by stacking AA assuming your Tear from your initial AA is fully charged.
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That doesn't explain why you wouldn't go 2 AA 1 deathcap though, right?
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On November 22 2011 05:11 Slayer91 wrote:
That doesn't explain why you wouldn't go 2 AA 1 deathcap though, right?
Yeah, you'd get more AP with 1 dcap and some AAs. I happen to think that AA stack is something only idiots or people who troll do. So...
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On November 22 2011 05:03 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:46 Alzadar wrote:
Is there any logic behind Archangel's stacking? I just played a game against an Anivia who went Boots -> 3 Archangel's
It seems to me that after the first Archangel, you could either go Rod of Ages, which would give less AP but much much more durability and utility, or you could get a Deathcap which would give you more AP than a second Archangel. So if you're going for pure damage, Deathcap makes more sense than Archangel, and if you want survivability then Rod will give you decent enough AP as well.
The 3rd AA is even more ridiculous, at that point a Rod of Ages will actually give you MORE ability power than the Archangel, on top of all the other advantages of a Rod. I did the numbers awhile ago, I don't remember what thread it's on. Maybe Shikyo QQ thread. But stacking three AA gives you more AP than Deathcap, Voidstaff, and Rod of Ages. For raw AP stacking AA gives you more AP than almost any combo. It's still stupid because you have no utility and you need to have a fully charged Tear but in terms of just straight up AP you get a lot more by stacking AA assuming your Tear from your initial AA is fully charged.
Ignoring runes and masteries, which shouldn't have a significant effect:
3x Archangel's Staff
2200 mana, 442 AP
2x Archangel's Staff, 1x Rabadon's Deathcap
1800 mana, 534 AP
2x Archangel's Staff, 1x Rod of Ages
2525 mana, 630 health, 394 AP
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The AP you get from runes and the new masteries is actually quite significant. At level 18 you get 45 from standard rune setup (flat quints, scaling blues) and 23 from masteries, plus another 5% total.
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More ap just makes Dcap better anyway.
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On November 22 2011 05:02 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:09 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 22 2011 04:01 Two_DoWn wrote:
KK- Fizz conclusions pt 2:
W does not scale with ap. At all. Ignore the little green numbers next to the damage. It doesnt actually scale with anything. Here is why- the skill does X damage over 5 seconds. However, all it does on subsequent hits is reset the duration. So any ap you stack on the skill is essentially reduced to 1/5- the extra tick that you get for the next hit extending the duration by a second or whatever your aspeed is. Instead, its much better to just go ad- you do more damage by just hitting someone harder than you do getting a bit of extra damage on that last tick of w.
The extension of this is that there is no reason for him to go ap whatsoever. Sure, his ratios are pretty damn good. The problem with ap fizz is he is entirely front loaded. He hits r, q, and e (if you feel comfortable wasting your escape for damage, which I think is a shitty play in most cases). Then he pokes with w. And as I've already said, his w doesnt actually scale with ap. So instead you end up bursting, then not actually having any damage with which to finish anyone off, since your cds are about 6 seconds on q and e.
So if his w doesnt scale, the question becomes how do we MAKE it scale, or at least appear to. I think the answer is ad. Every time you poke someone, you do your normal damage, then the w damage. But if w doesnt scale, the only way to make your attacks hurt more is to increase the damage that you do physically.
And if you look at the rest of his kit, he is BUILT to be a tanky dps who finds a target, gets to them, forces them from the fight, then bounces to another target. q and e give him an extreme amount of fight mobility, and r is essentially a hard snare- the movespeed reduction is so great there is no way for the enemy to run from you. So you just q to them, poke them with your stick and prevent anyone else from healing them or for lifesteal letting them heal themselves.
edit: also, max AP you can get from items in the game is 5x AA + deathcap, I thought everyone knew this from their noob days.
As for builds- the most effective opener I have found so far is whatever you start with (boots, cloth) and then just getting 2 dblades. They give everything you want in lane, extra damage for w, extra health, some sustain, and are hella cheap to boot. They also have the happy coincidence of being completely lane independent- you can get them mid and not feel stupid vs an ap, and top and not feel stupid vs someone like nasus. From there I think the way to go is wits and then tanky- I know frozen mallet is really good, but I want to give triforce a shot and see if that helps more. W not scaling is wrong. It definitely scales. The passive portion doesn't scale very well, you're right, but you can't ignore the active scaling (0.35) on W. When combined with his Q, it's a total of 1.1 AP scaling for just one combo. Every auto after is 0.35 scaling on top of everything else. The active and passive both have the same scaling, .35. The problem with ap is the WAY that it scales. Because its flat damage spread over 5 seconds, in a non stacking form, the more ap you have, the LESS you want to hit 1 person. Full ap fizz should only ever hit a person 1 time, wait 5 seconds, then hit them again. Doing anything else is a waste of damage. Unfortunately, in my mind, fizz is perfect for sticking to 1 person and chasing them from the fight, making ap a terrible way to go in order to achieve that aim. As for ROA- I actually do not like that as a starting item because it doenst give anywhere near the same lane power (looking at a fast cata) that 2 dblades does, or even 2 drings.
Saying that a champion can't choose to hit or kill a single target because you want to maximize one part of one skill is silly, especially when W does more damage against wounded targets (helps blow up single targets faster since a team focuses) and passive W scales worse than active W because it's 0.35 AP over 3 seconds as opposed to 0.35 AP per attack (at .7 attacks per second + Q onhit).
Not to mention that W is not BEAR STANCE.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
This SaintV triple WotA team is ridonkulous.
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I don't suppose anyone knows if they plan to lower runepage prices or do they do any holiday sale involving them? I'am thinking about just picking up a bundle or a page or two to go along with the black friday sale thing they have going on this week. I need the runepages but I'd hate to throw RP towards it if they are having a sale on such in two weeks or somesuch.
Tripple Wota is hilariously effective with the right champions. I don't think 3 starks would be nearly as awesome sadly.
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On November 22 2011 05:48 MoonBear wrote:
This SaintV triple WotA team is ridonkulous.
Missing double Starks + 5 Aegis imo.
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Hey MoonBear, is this a known bug or is just me:
My masteries and rune pages never go to what I choose during hero select.
I pick my AP Rune and Mastery page, and start with 67 (or something) AD every game...
It's not so bad when I play AD heroes I guess, but it fucks up my AP picks.
I'm gonna take screenshots next game if you need to see it.
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Ok, I'm trying to get my wife to play. Opinions on easiest champ to understand and play?
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On November 22 2011 06:15 mordek wrote:
Ok, I'm trying to get my wife to play. Opinions on easiest champ to understand and play?
xin zhao, faceroll over keyboard and win
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On November 22 2011 06:15 mordek wrote:
Ok, I'm trying to get my wife to play. Opinions on easiest champ to understand and play?
Ashe/Caitlyn (probably Caitlyn these days) to understand last hitting. Soraka and GP if you use ult only for yourself. Garen. Taric. Eventually Warwick and Xin Zhao.
Covers all roles except AP. AP is trickier; easiest is probably Annie and even then you need to pay attention to stacks. Sion/Morgana/Ryze are all fairly easy to understand but kind of difficult to play effectively. A new player should probably avoid the solo lane anyway.
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Probably Ashe, Caitlyn or Tristana. Their long range is quite forgiving to new players.
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On November 22 2011 06:15 mordek wrote:
Ok, I'm trying to get my wife to play. Opinions on easiest champ to understand and play?
Any support really. You just need to play the ad carry so no one yells at her. Sona and sora prolly the easiest.
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Doing the 1000 AP challenge on my stream. Trying to get 1000 AP before 35 min as Veigar. Come watch!
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Thanks for all the input. Taric is free this week so leaning towards that...
Also, tuning into Loci's stream 
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what are these suggestions? oh my god
let her play soraka or sona
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EPT
