EPT[Patch 1.0.0.127: Graves] General Discussion - Page 46
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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Wala.Revolution
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Southlight
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18:40 wala LOL 18:40 wala I thought you dropped it 18:40 wala but little did I know 18:41 wala 'you' referring to Craton right On October 22 2011 06:26 Craton wrote: Stop being brainless and assuming that using the highest tier of play as additional proof is somehow "being sheep." You have done nothing but insult everyone who has disagreed with you (which is nearly everyone) and use bullshit psuedo-logic to further your opinion. Who gives a shit about what pros thought of Cho? It's completely irrelevant. Pros have tried both dring stacking and gp5 in head-to-head matchups and nearly always the gp5 support has come out on top. Really wanna do this? One person -- you -- have disagreed vehemently with me through this argument, bringing up absolutely nothing except that "pros" do it, without offering any explanation of why, and why some have opted against it (because otherwise you would have no anecdote evidence of the non-gold/10 never winning). You then brought up gold cost efficiency and the cost make-up of gold/10, yet decided to ignore the elementary-school-level mathematical "no shit" that it takes over 26 minutes to make up the cost of PStone without and instead offered insults about gold/10 items being more cost efficient than Doran items. On October 22 2011 02:19 spinesheath wrote: Compare that to my support style: No gold/10 until 15+ minutes in because I'm too busy counterwarding the whole map. On October 22 2011 02:20 Southlight wrote: I don't buy any gold/10 at all. /me high-fives spinesheath On October 22 2011 02:29 spinesheath wrote: I often DO buy a Philo on supports. If I plan to get a Shurelya's. On October 22 2011 02:42 Southlight wrote:Gasp. I has been betrayed. This amusing exchange leads to a discussion about warding. Specifically, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=11951853 which leads to Yango's On October 22 2011 02:48 TheYango wrote: The thing about gp5 is that people really overrate the gold generation. For a long time it's just filling the cost-effectiveness hole where it has to catch up to Doran's items. Not to mention a bunch of this comes out of the attitude that supports absolutely cannot touch any laner's farm, despite the fact that the support taking 2 creeps bottom to get an extra ward is likely to pay for itself just because of how much further out the AD carry can play. Hint: I agree with Yango. A full page of ward discussion follows, and then someone follows Yango in breaking the topic to a bad direction: On October 22 2011 03:51 ibreakurface wrote: Why bother giving the support two creeps when the support can just be poor and buy wards, allowing the carry to still be able to be out further. Having a heart of gold increases survivability, and a philo stone gives awesome sustainability, so it's not like the items stats are useless other than the gp5. Basically the gp5 gives the support a free ward every 38 seconds, which allows them to use assist and the few cs gold they get on more survivability. Basically what the support does is gives the carry their money by spending on wards and not getting ANY cs. Why would it be the other way around? Supports dont need money, carries do. By all accounts I don't think anyone particularly agreed with this person. That's fine, I'm not going to harp about peoples' ratings or anything petty like that. On October 22 2011 03:53 UniversalSnip wrote: I agree that gp5 is way overvalued... anybody who's actually going to be actively fighting at close range probably shouldn't get them (taric for example). This is where you come in. On October 22 2011 04:07 Craton wrote: Support should always have gp5, regardless of melee or ranged. Unless you're dominating the enemy team so hard that you constantly have tons of spare gold to buy oracles, wards, and build up your own stats (in which case it doesn't matter because you win already), then you're going to end up being weaker than paper because you can barely afford wards, or you're not going to have the wards/oracles your team needs. This was illustrated several times over the last few tournaments, as well. Philo and Hog are literally the perfect items for supports. All supports need regen, philo can build into shurelya's which can turn a fight by itself, and all support need hp. Kage's is more situational, as it's sometimes worth it and sometimes worth skipping. THE BEAST HAS COME. Yango let drop a nice explanation of the math regarding gold efficiency of items. The latter part of your statement I deal with later, and is a topic of contention between Smash and I. We will agree to disagree: he, Neo, and Bly have all seen me play my supports the way I do, and they work just fine. Fine enough to get to a relatively mediocre rating, but still a rating that most people struggle to get to. Especially as a support player because most people bitch about supporting in solo queue. On October 22 2011 04:09 TheYango wrote: It takes on the order of like 10 minutes for gold/5 items to match the cost-effectiveness of Doran's items (HoG/Kage break even with the plain stat counterparts at 5-7 minutes, and Doran's are significantly more cost-effective than the plain stat items). Personally I find the "supports need gp5 for ward money" argument to be extremely lacking given how long it takes for gp5 to pay for itself. Seems better to get Doran's + 5 wards now, rather than get a Philo/HoG, and slowly earn those 5 wards over the period of 10 minutes. They start generating surplus gold after that, but I think 10 minutes is plenty of time to turn the immediate spendable gold into a real advantage. Compare: 2x Doran's Ring + 9 Wards 200 HP 30 AP 10 mp5 vs. HoG + Philo 250 HP 18 hp5 8 mp5 1 gold/sec gold gain You get better stats from the Doran's Rings, and it takes 11+ minutes for the gold gain to generate 9 wards. Again, the gold/5 will start generating surplus after that, but 11 minutes is a really fucking long time for you to turn your immediate benefits into further advantage. Thank you, Yango. Now we get into a related but different argument, one in which Smash and I will simply have to agree to disagree, at least on a certain set of heroes that I touch on in a post earlier in whatever page I am replying to. Again, I don't take it personally, and I don't think he does either, because he's played with me enough to give up on trying to argue that my bizarre builds aren't efficient, because they rarely fail. On October 22 2011 04:16 Mogwai wrote: if the game last past 30 minutes, you'll notice that g/10 supports are way ahead of comparably farmed non-g/10 supports. I dunno mangz, I just don't see the benefit of other items over g/10s on supports being enough to justify the fact that if the game is slow, I will completely fucking useless without g/10. On October 22 2011 04:18 Southlight wrote: A Soraka with DRing stack and AP is far from useless :< On October 22 2011 04:19 Mogwai wrote: if your team is losing fights, you won't be able to buy wards/oracles. EDIT: which in turn makes turning the game around WAY fucking harder. On October 22 2011 04:24 Southlight wrote: If your team is losing fights, you just won't have as many DRings. And really, I've noticed that if you actually look at the gold earned chart at the end of a long game, and then substract the actual cost of the gold items, they still don't look significantly different, at the cost of severe early-mid-game effect impediment. This is the #1 reason why most support Tarics blow chunks after 15 minutes, because they invest in retarded gold/10 items and are worthless. They unfortunately whacked Soraka's W ratio so it's not as nifty but even level 1 Q + Infuse does crazy damage with minimal AP. 40 minutes into a game a support with a gold/10 item that's been upgraded to like Shurelya still has less full combat use than a support with three DRings (half the cost of Shurelya). That's pretty nasty IMO. Obviously this differs from hero to hero, which is something most wannabe supports don't take into account because they don't actually know what's going on. Derp. Edit: I get gold/10 on Janna just because there's no real better thing to get. On Sona I have a tendency to get Tears -> Archangel for AP for better heals. Although I do like PStone on her anyways. So let me take a tangent here and display one discussion string. This one is entirely about cost efficiency of items and the impact on early-mid game. On October 22 2011 04:35 Mogwai wrote: I mean... if you think 3 drings = shurelya's in terms of usefulness in a teamfight... lol, I guess there's really nowhere for this argument to go. 45 AP = ~20 more HP on a heal. 15% CDR means -3 seconds on the CD of a 350 HP heal. Even with 0% CDR, 15% CDR = 20.6 HP/second healing, and 45AP = 18.5 HP/second healing. Tack that up to 15% CDR from boots and 6% from masteries and now we're looking at 26.9 (reverie) vs. 23.125 (3 drings). Then add in team haste and well... I just don't even see it as close. I'll take the Reverie Soraka every single time and at 40 minutes, assuming the philo was at 15 minutes (stupidly late), it still paid for 750 of the 2200 gold needed for reverie, making the cost difference between the two builds only 25 gold. On October 22 2011 04:35 Southlight wrote: Reverie costs 2200. Three DRings costs 1425. Good comparisons are good. Also 45AP amounts to an extra 30 heal off the ult, and I'm going to assume you don't get to fire multiple ults in a single fight. Conversely if you want to equate cost performance, post Rings I either try to hit NLR or go for Codex or Kindle, both of which provide most of the final CDR I need for cheap, as in like, similar to the gold differential of reverie and three rings. On October 22 2011 04:37 RetZ wrote: If your theoretical support only has boots, hog and a dring at 25min then a gp10 stacking support in the same situation is going to have boots, hog and half a philo. I don't think anyone is denying that gp10 will give you a stronger lategame, but you can get a much stronger mid/early game by not building so much gp10. Edit: And personally, I almost always get philo because I love reverie, however I almost never build HoG or any other gp10. I'd much rather a rather reverie, aegis or other strong item. On October 22 2011 04:39 spinesheath wrote: Having a Shurelya's/Aegis/ANYTHING THAT ACTUALLY DOES SOMETHING instead of a bunch of useless gold/10 items for a duration of 10+ minutes is HUGE. Sure if you don't make anything happen while you have such a huge advantage, you're gonna be behind. But you also suck in that case. This culminates in several logical conclusions. Whether you accept them or not is your prerogative. To me, this settled MY MAIN POINT regarding my blatant preference for non-gold/10 on certain support heroes. Incidentally I also do DRing on Cow, now that I think about it, but that's a tangent. On October 22 2011 04:42 Craton wrote: Everytime a support has gone 0-1 gp5 in a tournament game that wasn't over at lane phase, they've been hugely behind for the entire game. Why? Because if you try to ward/oracle the amount you should be with dick for gold, you're unable to ever get a new item. On October 22 2011 04:44 Craton wrote: Stop pretending like the items have no valuable besides their gp5 component. You get marginally more hp and mp5 with 3 drings over just hog/philo. You trade AP on supports who have low ratios for a constant income, hp5, and the ability to build into the best support item in the game. On October 22 2011 04:46 Southlight wrote: So now we're comparing cost efficiency of items then? Wait, wait, I can do this. 475: +15 ability power +100 health +5 mana regeneration 800: +18 health regeneration +8 mana regeneration 825: +250 health You're right. They're so much more cost-efficient. How could I have missed this obvious fact. On October 22 2011 04:48 Craton wrote: Probably because you're blinded by arrogance. My biggest mistake was biting on the obvious flamebait. Rather immature of me, but I've not exactly shied away from my condescending sarcastic tone of voice when it comes to stuff that is factually dumb. I do, however, bow my head to your superior maturity in the response. The more apt conclusion to the discussion though, and what made me drop actually arguing it, was simple: On October 22 2011 04:48 Mogwai wrote: all your cost math though is just fucking hand waving and acting like a philostone was wasted money until it pays for itself via the gold/10 component, which is stupid and you should know that :p. On October 22 2011 04:50 Southlight wrote: PStone IS wasted money unless you're Janna (which I get it on), Sona (if you're going offensive, if you're playing babysit Sona it's a waste), and possibly the two melee supports (Blitz/Cow) but I don't play those and I'm not gonna speak on them. Oh, oops. Here Smash and I have found our fundamental difference. I think Pstone is retarded on Soraka and Taric. Therefore, getting PStone is a waste of money. Now that we have this understood my previous statements make more sense, don't they, because I am calculating those 100% based on the fact that PStone is a vacant hole in your inventory that took 800 gold. We can, again, agree to disagree on the usefulness of PStone the item. As compromise, I offer that I still run it on Janna, and definitively give it thought on Sona, while conceding that other "support" heroes have run it and that I simply cannot be vocal about them because I don't play them/I suck at them. I do not, however, touch upon the logical connection of PStone to Reverie, which is the second conclusive point: On October 22 2011 04:48 zulu_nation8 wrote: The power of shurelias is really underestimated in mid to late game. The amount of openings to potentially catch someone out of position or to save a teammate or yourself from being caught granted by the mspd buff is more game changing than basically anything else a support can get. Starks and raduins are expensive, aegis becomes worthless later. If you're a peel support like ali or taric I'd consider raduins before aegis, unless you can get the aegis early. ^-- fine, we can agree to disagree on the power of Reverie. I prefer cockblocking LS/Noc/etc. when they try to hammer the carry, especially when I'm playing something like Soraka. While I can understand the power of Reverie in initiating, playstyle-wise I simply prioritize overall combat effect (AP etc.) over the initiating effect. No amount of theorycrafting in a thread will change my, or the opposite perspective's, mind on this. Note that while I openly stated that I do not like Reverie in the past and maintain that stance, I did my very best to avoid touching this topic. Ultimately, Mr. Lurker puts a summary on this: On October 22 2011 05:06 Wala.Revolution wrote: I'm with Yango with early gp5 (philo) because it turns into a most useful support item you want with stats you want but otherwise, you want efficiency because you don't get gold (not that you would want to build inefficiently on other chars anyway). We also have a cute interjection by Shake dealing with the opening items, but not only did he come in at a bad time (after I shot down his point because I don't even open DRing), the appeal to authority you love points out that Xpecial does it too. On an unrelated note, I realized on my drive home that I open two wards + 5 pots on Janna, so Xpecial is definitely more brave than I. That said, we run different rune/mastery/playstyle setups, a fact that has been beaten to a pulp in the Janna and Caitlyn threads. The other discussion is about the gold payback efficiency of these gold/10 items, and whether they actually make a financial difference. This is a separate, but connected point, as people argue that the stats (dealt with in the discussion above) along wit the economic gains are what make them enviable. For shits and giggles, I'm going to highlight all your posts in this section blue, so we can see your tone of superior maturity +5. I will also provide running commentary of posts to give you a good sense of the lulz. On October 22 2011 04:27 NeoIllusions wrote: Well, if you are going for a early-mid game centric team, then sure, gp10 might not seem worth it. But seriously, how often do you build a team comp that doesn't go beyond 30 min... Translation: gold10 is good for late-game. On October 22 2011 04:32 Craton wrote: Games when your support has 0-1 GP5's you end up in the midgame with a useless support (who has something like boots 1, hog, dring at the 25 minute mark) or you end up with shit for map vision or oracles clearing. The more you get things like drings, the worse your lategame is unless you're completely raping the enemy team. Translation: gold10 is good for late-game AND mid-game. Also you end up with shit items 25 minutes into the game. Remember this number, for this is important. On October 22 2011 04:37 RetZ wrote: If your theoretical support only has boots, hog and a dring at 25min then a gp10 stacking support in the same situation is going to have boots, hog and half a philo. I don't think anyone is denying that gp10 will give you a stronger lategame, but you can get a much stronger mid/early game by not building so much gp10. Edit: And personally, I almost always get philo because I love reverie, however I almost never build HoG or any other gp10. I'd much rather a rather reverie, aegis or other strong item. Translation: 25 minutes in the other player has comparable stuff. Also this is another guy backing up the earlier discussion string about how people can buy Pstone if they want the stat, but again in that sense the gold10 ALONG WITH the stats are what make the buy make sense. Not the fucking gold. On October 22 2011 04:39 TheYango wrote: People are just straight up overrating how much gold gain the gold/5s are. If you clean up minigols when nobody else is nearby to do them, that just earned you 2 minutes worth of gold. Clean up one fresh wave of 6 minions? That's like 5 minutes. Translation: See, the argument being made is that the gold gain itself is not significant enough to matter. Now let's bring back Smash's quote about this topic: On October 22 2011 04:16 Mogwai wrote: if the game last past 30 minutes, you'll notice that g/10 supports are way ahead of comparably farmed non-g/10 supports. I dunno mangz, I just don't see the benefit of other items over g/10s on supports being enough to justify the fact that if the game is slow, I will completely fucking useless without g/10. Yango replies, On October 22 2011 04:35 TheYango wrote: If you got your HoG at 10 minutes, it doesn't even match DRing cost-effectiveness till 20 minutes, and by 25 minutes, the gp5 has only generated a surplus of 2 wards. If your support is that behind at 25 minutes with 1 gp5 instead of 2, it's very likely not because of their item choice. Mine was, On October 22 2011 04:35 Southlight wrote: ? 5 gold per 10 seconds, 30 per minute Assuming you don't sell Pstone (which you don't because you make Shurelya) it takes 800/30 = over 26 minutes to pay for itself. In order to afford a DRing after the PStone off the PStone itself it costs an extra 475/30 = over 15 minutes. That means opening PStone and allowing for ambient gold (removing any kills/assists/cs) leads to a whopping 41 minute game to equate to a single DRing off the extra gold off a single gold/10 item. Again at this juncture I must concede that several of us had a basic disagreement over the value of PStone, hence why my math was done with a complete "Pstone has a value of 0 gold" calculation. You can, of course, reduce or remove the DRing cost of 475 as you wish, via the assumption that the PStone stats are actually worth 800 gold to you, and you would still end up with a 26.67 minute post-item lull in which you're behind. It is only after the 26.67 mark that you get ahead. Calculations will be later. On October 22 2011 05:00 BlackPaladin wrote: Uhhh, the gold/10 meta more or less is good at higher level tourny play where FB only happens 10+ mins in the game. You're not going to get many assists when they actual game itself only has 10 kills by the 20 min point lol. Translation: gold/10 is good end-game. On October 22 2011 05:03 TheYango wrote: Again, this reasoning is flawed as it applies to supports. If you're not getting assists, then your gold income is slow. If it's slow, it means that you get your gold/10 items later, and it takes LONGER for them become cost-effective. Gold/10 is BETTER when you get early assists/global gold to buy them early, and worse when nothing is happening, and you can't get them till late and they take forever to pay off. Translation: I dunno what to think about this because there're some logical circles that confuse the shit out of me. I'm too tired to try to untie this argument. Sorry Yangster. On October 22 2011 05:12 crate wrote: A gold item at 10 minutes gives you 900 extra gold at 40 minutes (30 minutes after you buy it) compared to not getting one. A decent amount of that gold is lost to the inefficiency of the gold item (hard to say much about philo I guess, especially since Shurelya's is similarly hard to really put a gold cost on because of the active; but HoG/Kage/Avarice are all clearly inefficient and often don't get upgraded so they're easier to price), especially if you're comparing to efficient items like Doran's Ring, so you're up like 5 wards after 30 minutes per gold item. If you can win a fight or get an objective during the first ~20 minutes of the game by buying Doran's instead of a gold item you've immediately come out ahead unless the game drags on. A rehash of Yango and I's calculation posts earlier. At this point it's becoming difficult to refute the length of time it takes to recoup the investment. Unfortunately this is elementary-school math, after all. Ambient gold on SR is 14/10. That means without getting any creep stats whatsoever it takes 9 minutes and 30 seconds after the start of the game to buy a PStone, if you don't open any parts. Let's assuming you open Charm though. It takes 8 minutes and 30 seconds then. That still means that you buy your gold item at around the 10 minute mark. Friendly teammates will encourage you to farm up quicker to buy the first gold/10 item though, so let's assume that your team is competent, knowledgeable, and not filled with selfish hacks that somehow believe that a whole 200 gold is going to ruin their game. Let's assume that you can get your Pstone in 7-8 minutes in-game time. At the freaking 33-34 minute mark you have finally broken even, in which you have no quantifiable advantage - in fact, you have a DISadvantage in ward count. Yes, until this point if the enemy support isn't retarded, they actually have map control to any degree they wish. And because they didn't spend 800 gold on an item, they have 800 gold to counterward you with, because they have 800 gold to disperse as they wish. This means that I could have a DRing, or is often the case in a tight warding game, I'll have a Boot and a shitton of wards and possibly an Oracle (I'll usually be too pansy to buy an oracle until I get some more HP via DRings though.) And if I'm the guy that didn't buy PStone, I am going to take advantage of my 800 gold (and decreasing over time) advantage. YOU WILL NOT HAVE MAP CONTROL. If you do, I suck. Danke. Where was that post again? On October 22 2011 04:39 spinesheath wrote: Sure if you don't make anything happen while you have such a huge advantage, you're gonna be behind. But you also suck in that case. But man, you lay down the LAW: On October 22 2011 06:26 Craton wrote: You have done nothing but insult everyone who has disagreed with you (which is nearly everyone) and use bullshit psuedo-logic to further your opinion. Who gives a shit about what pros thought of Cho? It's completely irrelevant. Pros have tried both dring stacking and gp5 in head-to-head matchups and nearly always the gp5 support has come out on top. An attack on character which has, in the above posts history, been proven true. Pseudo-logic that equates to elementary-school mathematics in order to further my complex multiplication-derived opinion. And finally, an appeal to authority, because let's face it, that's all you've done. You argued that...
Amusingly, your final argument was dealt with by other people. So I won't even touch that part. I also just spent like 5 minutes trying to figure out where the fuck this last closing is coming from because I'm OCD but I can't, so fuck it, deal with it  Or at least, I'm gonna try to ;_;Edit: FOUND THE FUCKER. BEGONE STUPID [/b] TAG! | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
Time to curbstomp and tryhard a little Shaco action :3 to emphasize what i mean by having it easy on EU: + Show Spoiler [brag picz] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rEEut.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/rEEut,vdAQd#1) | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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dnastyx
United States2707 Posts
I'M SO SAD WHY YOU NO HELP YOUR FELLOW SUPPORT PLAYER | ||
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Southlight
United States11766 Posts
On October 22 2011 07:44 dnastyx wrote: Uta why you no quote my post I'M SO SAD WHY YOU NO HELP YOUR FELLOW SUPPORT PLAYERlol there were a lot that basically agreed on the same thing (that Shurelya's is good) so I just took the first one that was posted during a certain interval... which was wala's. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
A new record for longest rave-driven post? THIS IS WHY I CAN'T PLAY SUPPORT You guys scare me. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
That's a lie, it still sucks. Does not affect lifesteal, does not affect Trundle's passive, so I think it's worded properly in only increasing regen ... which means it's still really awful. (but all the pros take it lolol) | ||
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dnastyx
United States2707 Posts
On October 22 2011 07:51 WaveofShadow wrote: Holy fuck, Uta. A new record for longest rave-driven post? THIS IS WHY I CAN'T PLAY SUPPORT You guys scare me. nah guys support is easy anyone can play support :V NA mentality 2strong | ||
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Wala.Revolution
7582 Posts
On October 22 2011 07:42 Juicyfruit wrote: GODDAMN IT UTAH | ||
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Chrispy
Canada5878 Posts
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Lanzoma
Mexico813 Posts
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57 Corvette
Canada5941 Posts
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On October 22 2011 07:40 Iplaythings wrote: Finally, lvl 30 on EU Time to curbstomp and tryhard a little Shaco action :3 to emphasize what i mean by having it easy on EU: + Show Spoiler [brag picz] + 6/12/22 annie? wtfnooblolololol you play support annie or something heuhuehurrr | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On October 22 2011 08:05 turdburgler wrote: 6/12/22 annie? wtfnooblolololol you play support annie or something heuhuehurrr Fucking cassiopeia was a fellow smurf And my annie blows, and that game was the worst slugfest I played in a while, was good fun playing that awful :D also: On October 22 2011 07:42 Juicyfruit wrote: GODDAMN IT UTAH + Show Spoiler + On October 22 2011 08:07 HazMat wrote: Do people actually read Utah's post? I scroll down and smile. I read it | ||
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Vlanitak
Norway3045 Posts
On October 22 2011 08:07 HazMat wrote: Do people actually read Utah's post? I scroll down and smile. I read it, was quite interesting tbh. | ||
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