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On October 19 2011 04:33 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 04:14 Requizen wrote:On October 19 2011 04:07 Mogwai wrote:
that AD ratio on his ult is sillytarded too. So where was this commentary during free Kog week? Free weeks don't matter to people who just own all the champs. Kog's resurgence is relatively recent and now that everyone's playing him, I feel fine bitching about his bullshit. Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 04:19 TheYango wrote:On October 19 2011 04:14 Requizen wrote:On October 19 2011 04:07 Mogwai wrote:
that AD ratio on his ult is sillytarded too. So where was this commentary during free Kog week? Is it hugely surprising that people don't immediately figure out how strong things are? I'm betting that for a long time, people were still building him like old Kog with Bloodrazor, and hence not taking advantage of the fact that his ult now is basically like Corki's R except with no ammo system, twice the range, and you always fire Big Ones. That said, I think Kog nerfs are kind of silly, seeing as I don't think it's going to help anything. Every time in the past the top dog AD carry has been nerfed, and it hasn't helped to even out the power level at all. Prior to this Kog/Cait craze, Corki, Ashe, and Vayne were all strong, but they got nerfed one after another. mmm, I disagree. I think the game is a lot more interesting when every piece of the ranged DPS puzzle comes with the tradeoff of another. The problem I have with Kog is that he has like, by far the highest damage and range of any ranged DPS. One or the other is fine, but both together is just sooooo frustrating and makes his late game quite absurd when he's just 5-shotting farmed tanks from 750 range.
Lol, didn't we have a similar argument about Caitlyn a while ago, except in reverse? You just said that even though her late game sucks, her early game is so strong that it doesn't matter.
Kog is the opposite. His late game is strong if you let him get there. His early game is crap, just shit on him in lane. He has no sustain, no escapes, and no burst until he's built. He completely relies on his support to keep him alive. Just gank him or go fuckin kill him a bunch of times. Outside of flash, his "escape" is a big line that you don't have to walk on and can jump over with Tumble/Rocket Jump/Net/Shift. Every time he's not with a teammate, he should die.
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On October 19 2011 03:59 Juicyfruit wrote:
If you want early level dominance, flat CDR blues would be better than flat AP blues.
AP doesn't increase your mana costs. Better CDs do and are thus a bad choice for early related rune setups.
On October 19 2011 03:57 NeoIllusions wrote:
Considering he said he just started LoL, I'm cutting him some slack. Hopefully he gets a clue that balance posts are not well liked in this subforum asaply. ;_;
Edit: tbh, I did miss out on your hyperbole. >_>
I was hoping at least 3 «Lee Sin, Lee Sin, Lee Sin, Lee Sin, Lee Sin», one «Akali, Morgana, Lee Sin, Udyr, Kog» (fotms), and a handful of «Kog Maw, Lee Sin, Udyr, Cass, Janna».
On the whole Kog debate, he just needs a little AS nerf from his Q passive and maybe a more progressive scaling of his W (overall weaker laning phase), and he'll still be a very good char while not insta ban. I love him so much, it's too bad I can play him so little :'(
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I like that kog has the trade off between damage and positioning, rewarding those who know how to position well and making bad players look terrible. I dont think he is op at all, just very good (as he needs to be) at killing things to make up for his lack of mobility.
I do think the ad ratio on the ult is stupid thou.
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Just play Trist guys, jump on him early game and lategame you have almost as much range. 
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United States47024 Posts
Honestly, I just don't think that Kog would be super out of line when it comes to AD carries if we were talking pre-nerf Ashe, pre-nerf Vayne, and pre-nerf Corki. They're all insanely strong in their own ways--it's just Riot dulled the strengths of those 3, so Kog and Cait stand further ahead of the pack now. Sure, Kog's late-game damage is insane, but so is having ECA up like all the time, or double damage big ones.
The same sort of thing happened in the jungle. As OP as people make Lee Sin out to be, you'd be hard pressed convincing me that he's more OP than pre-nerf Nocturne/GP were--the fact that they got nerfed to where they are now is what throws LS out of line to begin with.
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On October 19 2011 04:55 AwayFromLife wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 04:33 Mogwai wrote:On October 19 2011 04:14 Requizen wrote:On October 19 2011 04:07 Mogwai wrote:
that AD ratio on his ult is sillytarded too. So where was this commentary during free Kog week? Free weeks don't matter to people who just own all the champs. Kog's resurgence is relatively recent and now that everyone's playing him, I feel fine bitching about his bullshit. On October 19 2011 04:19 TheYango wrote:On October 19 2011 04:14 Requizen wrote:On October 19 2011 04:07 Mogwai wrote:
that AD ratio on his ult is sillytarded too. So where was this commentary during free Kog week? Is it hugely surprising that people don't immediately figure out how strong things are? I'm betting that for a long time, people were still building him like old Kog with Bloodrazor, and hence not taking advantage of the fact that his ult now is basically like Corki's R except with no ammo system, twice the range, and you always fire Big Ones. That said, I think Kog nerfs are kind of silly, seeing as I don't think it's going to help anything. Every time in the past the top dog AD carry has been nerfed, and it hasn't helped to even out the power level at all. Prior to this Kog/Cait craze, Corki, Ashe, and Vayne were all strong, but they got nerfed one after another. mmm, I disagree. I think the game is a lot more interesting when every piece of the ranged DPS puzzle comes with the tradeoff of another. The problem I have with Kog is that he has like, by far the highest damage and range of any ranged DPS. One or the other is fine, but both together is just sooooo frustrating and makes his late game quite absurd when he's just 5-shotting farmed tanks from 750 range. Lol, didn't we have a similar argument about Caitlyn a while ago, except in reverse? You just said that even though her late game sucks, her early game is so strong that it doesn't matter. Kog is the opposite. His late game is strong if you let him get there. His early game is crap, just shit on him in lane. He has no sustain, no escapes, and no burst until he's built. He completely relies on his support to keep him alive. Just gank him or go fuckin kill him a bunch of times. Outside of flash, his "escape" is a big line that you don't have to walk on and can jump over with Tumble/Rocket Jump/Net/Shift. Every time he's not with a teammate, he should die.
mmm, I still think Cait's early game strength heavily outweighs her lategame drop off. like, I like Vayne, Ezreal, Ashe, Teemo and MF out of the ranged carry pool a lot right now. I think they all have really interesting tradeoffs built into their kits. Kog and Cait both feel too heavily weighted towards late game and early game respectively. Interestingly enough, it's the exact same combination of strengths (damage and range) just at different phases of the game. I dunno if I'm just bad at playing vs. those advantages and thus dislike them more than the other advantages provided by other characters, but for one reason or another, I think that they both lead to very linear, right click -> win strats that are no good for the game.
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On October 19 2011 04:56 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 03:59 Juicyfruit wrote:
If you want early level dominance, flat CDR blues would be better than flat AP blues. AP doesn't increase your mana costs. Better CDs do and are thus a bad choice for early related rune setups.
It kinda does and it kinda doesn't. An extra 9AP vs 5% CDR doesn't break the lane much either way, but basically if your cooldowns are up a little faster, your damage over time becomes slightly more condensed, which means it has more chance of being significant enough in the face of potions, levelups and all that jazz.
Since his goal as Kassadin is to bash someone hard enough early game with just Q alone, getting that 1 extra Q before they hit a level up is likely going to play a bigger factor than 5-6 extra damage per Q after taking resistances into consideration.
Plus it just seems like you're more likely to get a kill if your Q comes up half a second sooner when you're chasing someone slightly past their tower, vs having it do 5 more damage.
Personally I wouldn't use either, l0l.
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On October 19 2011 05:07 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 04:55 AwayFromLife wrote:On October 19 2011 04:33 Mogwai wrote:On October 19 2011 04:14 Requizen wrote:On October 19 2011 04:07 Mogwai wrote:
that AD ratio on his ult is sillytarded too. So where was this commentary during free Kog week? Free weeks don't matter to people who just own all the champs. Kog's resurgence is relatively recent and now that everyone's playing him, I feel fine bitching about his bullshit. On October 19 2011 04:19 TheYango wrote:On October 19 2011 04:14 Requizen wrote:On October 19 2011 04:07 Mogwai wrote:
that AD ratio on his ult is sillytarded too. So where was this commentary during free Kog week? Is it hugely surprising that people don't immediately figure out how strong things are? I'm betting that for a long time, people were still building him like old Kog with Bloodrazor, and hence not taking advantage of the fact that his ult now is basically like Corki's R except with no ammo system, twice the range, and you always fire Big Ones. That said, I think Kog nerfs are kind of silly, seeing as I don't think it's going to help anything. Every time in the past the top dog AD carry has been nerfed, and it hasn't helped to even out the power level at all. Prior to this Kog/Cait craze, Corki, Ashe, and Vayne were all strong, but they got nerfed one after another. mmm, I disagree. I think the game is a lot more interesting when every piece of the ranged DPS puzzle comes with the tradeoff of another. The problem I have with Kog is that he has like, by far the highest damage and range of any ranged DPS. One or the other is fine, but both together is just sooooo frustrating and makes his late game quite absurd when he's just 5-shotting farmed tanks from 750 range. Lol, didn't we have a similar argument about Caitlyn a while ago, except in reverse? You just said that even though her late game sucks, her early game is so strong that it doesn't matter. Kog is the opposite. His late game is strong if you let him get there. His early game is crap, just shit on him in lane. He has no sustain, no escapes, and no burst until he's built. He completely relies on his support to keep him alive. Just gank him or go fuckin kill him a bunch of times. Outside of flash, his "escape" is a big line that you don't have to walk on and can jump over with Tumble/Rocket Jump/Net/Shift. Every time he's not with a teammate, he should die. mmm, I still think Cait's early game strength heavily outweighs her lategame drop off. like, I like Vayne, Ezreal, Ashe, Teemo and MF out of the ranged carry pool a lot right now. I think they all have really interesting tradeoffs built into their kits. Kog and Cait both feel too heavily weighted towards late game and early game respectively. Interestingly enough, it's the exact same combination of strengths (damage and range) just at different phases of the game. I dunno if I'm just bad at playing vs. those advantages and thus dislike them more than the other advantages provided by other characters, but for one reason or another, I think that they both lead to very linear, right click -> win strats that are no good for the game.
Well, dunno if I'd list Teemo in there, he's more hybrid/utility or Bruiser than straight Carry in most cases.
On topic, I think Cait and Kog are just too boring. They're the 4gate cheese of LoL: Easy enough for normal players to pull off and be good; deadly unstoppable in the hands of a pro. And exactly the same boring trite each time. Every other ranged AD champ has some sort of hook: Ez has skillshots, Vayne has the stun to line up and procs, Ashe has utility. Trist is boring too, and really lame early on anyway.
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On October 18 2011 17:13 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 00:44 tnkted wrote:LOL that was effing histerical. I don't usually get into fanfiction but LOL THAT WAS THE BEST FUCKING PIECE OF LOL I EVER READ. brb playing renek. Edit: Fuck, that was from 30 pages ago. WHATEVER. ITS AWESOME.
Really good, I went there and read it without any expectations so I don't get disappointed like the last ones I read, and damn it was a lot better than I thought it would be.
Really nice one, whoever wrote it.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On October 19 2011 04:48 IntoTheWow wrote:I wonder if Riot does like Blizzard and takes into account the times each champ gets banned, if they win games or not, at what ELOs, etc... Would shut up so many people and would lead to interesting discussions! (I lie, people in SC2 whine a lot, LoLers would whine even more )
Riot records data from every game letting them know information on which side (Blue/Purple) had what champions, the bans, normal or ranked, and the Elo of the match. Probably also data on skins, KDA, cs, gold earned, etc too. This let them gauge things like how players react to various things such as patches instead of only using things like forum responses. For example, people complained Wukong is underwhelming and no one plays him but he's still around average-ly played. It does also influence certain things such as skin releases and champion design.
In fact Riot actually has more data than they can process right now. So I'm just going to take a moment to advertise a position in Business Intelligence. For those of you with a quantitative background but never quite felt like you could do Design, you might be interested.
Basically, there are two aspects of this. One is statistical analysis on the masses of data Riot collects every single day from games played, the profiles of different players, marketing statistics, etc. You'd also be involved in things such as adjusting the matchmaking algorithm and other important iterative process.
Also of notes, if you're an expert on machine learning and AI technology, there's a potential opening available for that.
In both cases, Masters of PhD degrees are a plus.
For those concerned about salary, it will be competitive and comparable to what you would earn at another job requiring the same standards.
Okay enough from me.
/stealth
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
ironically ashe is the counter to both kog and cait in lane. only a matter of time before she rises again zz. Only laner with enough range to not get harassed heavily by kog/cait when looking to last hit, and then provides a ton more utility in teamfights Ashe even ends up raping kog in most lanes unless you have soraka/ashe or something. Taric/ashe for example is really strong. Both cover the others weaknesses and have a strong double stun in lane at 6. Prob one of my fav lanes.
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On October 19 2011 05:27 Brees wrote:
ironically ashe is the counter to both kog and cait in lane. only a matter of time before she rises again zz. Only laner with enough range to not get harassed heavily by kog/cait when looking to last hit, and then provides a ton more utility in teamfights Ashe even ends up raping kog in most lanes unless you have soraka/ashe or something. Taric/ashe for example is really strong. Both cover the others weaknesses and have a strong double stun in lane at 6. Prob one of my fav lanes.
Meh, I laugh at most Ashe players as Cait, dunno if they're just bad. Stand in creep wave, nullify Volley. They try to do the same, Piltover Peacemaker has no problem hitting. Ashe has better chase with slows, but traps/jump nullify that right quick.
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she doesn't exert enough pressure on Kog IMO. she's probably passable vs. Cait, but she's not really a counter IMO, though I'm an admittedly awful bot laner.
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On October 19 2011 05:32 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 05:27 Brees wrote:
ironically ashe is the counter to both kog and cait in lane. only a matter of time before she rises again zz. Only laner with enough range to not get harassed heavily by kog/cait when looking to last hit, and then provides a ton more utility in teamfights Ashe even ends up raping kog in most lanes unless you have soraka/ashe or something. Taric/ashe for example is really strong. Both cover the others weaknesses and have a strong double stun in lane at 6. Prob one of my fav lanes. Meh, I laugh at most Ashe players as Cait, dunno if they're just bad. Stand in creep wave, nullify Volley. They try to do the same, Piltover Peacemaker has no problem hitting. Ashe has better chase with slows, but traps/jump nullify that right quick.
You don't need to outfarm Cait when you play Ashe. If you're even in farm, which I think Brees is suggesting is possible, you automatically win because Volley + slows + arrow is a much bigger teamfight presence than Peacemaker + traps + Cait ult and they scale similarly off of items.
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On October 19 2011 05:35 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 05:32 Requizen wrote:On October 19 2011 05:27 Brees wrote:
ironically ashe is the counter to both kog and cait in lane. only a matter of time before she rises again zz. Only laner with enough range to not get harassed heavily by kog/cait when looking to last hit, and then provides a ton more utility in teamfights Ashe even ends up raping kog in most lanes unless you have soraka/ashe or something. Taric/ashe for example is really strong. Both cover the others weaknesses and have a strong double stun in lane at 6. Prob one of my fav lanes. Meh, I laugh at most Ashe players as Cait, dunno if they're just bad. Stand in creep wave, nullify Volley. They try to do the same, Piltover Peacemaker has no problem hitting. Ashe has better chase with slows, but traps/jump nullify that right quick. You don't need to outfarm Cait when you play Ashe. If you're even in farm, which I think Brees is suggesting is possible, you automatically win because Volley + slows + arrow is a much bigger teamfight presence than Peacemaker + traps + Cait ult and they scale similarly off of items.
Ah, in that case, yes. That is exactly the reason I play aggressively vs Ashe in lane, actually.
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Not sure about ashe vs kog but given equal skill level I think ashe vs cait is still heavily in favor of cait. If taric stuns, you can't really trade vs cait + sona/ali. After 6 ashe's arrow is excellent for ganks but cait still has an escape. It's also very unlikely ashe can keep up in cs vs cait no matter the support matchup.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On October 19 2011 05:32 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 05:27 Brees wrote:
ironically ashe is the counter to both kog and cait in lane. only a matter of time before she rises again zz. Only laner with enough range to not get harassed heavily by kog/cait when looking to last hit, and then provides a ton more utility in teamfights Ashe even ends up raping kog in most lanes unless you have soraka/ashe or something. Taric/ashe for example is really strong. Both cover the others weaknesses and have a strong double stun in lane at 6. Prob one of my fav lanes. Meh, I laugh at most Ashe players as Cait, dunno if they're just bad. Stand in creep wave, nullify Volley. They try to do the same, Piltover Peacemaker has no problem hitting. Ashe has better chase with slows, but traps/jump nullify that right quick.
answered your own question, you are hitting pilover they arent hitting volley. thats a skill level problem.
as for bly you are going about the matchup the wrong way...you are trying to play aggressive vs cait in lane
the whole point of taric is to just sit in the brush and nullify any aggressive attempt cait tries to pull. this allows ashe to maintain even farm which means you have won the lane due to ashe's much stronger after-lane.
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Is there any ad carry that Caitlyn isn't worse than out of lane on equal farm? Pure damage wise she should be ahead of ashe because of the passive, but then it'd depend upon how you rate their utility (which I feel anybody would rate ashe higher).
I mentioned this quite a few pages back, but Caitlyn really sucked at IEMNY (compared to her 100% winrate in China at least). If Caitlyn is still on the top of the totem pole (just under Kog'Maw though obviously), why did she do so poorly?
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People are getting used to play against Cait, not so much against Kog for now.
I think she's still super strong, specialy since winning lanes is a huge part in winning games.
Btw, the luxury buff to Kog and Ezreal attack animation and stuff is actually HUGE in them coming back in the scene.
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On October 19 2011 05:47 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 05:32 Requizen wrote:On October 19 2011 05:27 Brees wrote:
ironically ashe is the counter to both kog and cait in lane. only a matter of time before she rises again zz. Only laner with enough range to not get harassed heavily by kog/cait when looking to last hit, and then provides a ton more utility in teamfights Ashe even ends up raping kog in most lanes unless you have soraka/ashe or something. Taric/ashe for example is really strong. Both cover the others weaknesses and have a strong double stun in lane at 6. Prob one of my fav lanes. Meh, I laugh at most Ashe players as Cait, dunno if they're just bad. Stand in creep wave, nullify Volley. They try to do the same, Piltover Peacemaker has no problem hitting. Ashe has better chase with slows, but traps/jump nullify that right quick. answered your own question, you are hitting pilover they arent hitting volley. thats a skill level problem. as for bly you are going about the matchup the wrong way...you are trying to play aggressive vs cait in lane the whole point of taric is to just sit in the brush and nullify any aggressive attempt cait tries to pull. this allows ashe to maintain even farm which means you have won the lane due to ashe's much stronger after-lane.
vs Ali/Sona Taric can't really camp brush. If your support can't zone for you and you can't trade, you'll be behind in cs no matter what happens unless the cait sucks. But you're right that just keeping up in farm is enough since Ashe is better after laning.
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EPT
