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She has some things that make up for her late game damage. Also, I think her passive is better damage wise than Ashe's, but that's just imoimo.
Her strength is zoning and area control. If given the opportunity to set traps and position herself before the fight, she's tremendously useful. If it's a spontaneous teamfight, she's bad. She's great at backdooring turrets; clear the wave with Q and the trap the area to prevent counterattacks. She can also initiate pretty well with Q or even R against an out of position Carry.
But Cait doesn't have the straight damage of Kog, Ez, or Vayne. They have their own weaknesses to make up for it. Cait plays somewhere in the middle: not as much utility as Ashe, not as much damage as Kog, not as much mobility as... I guess Ez with his Flash. She's in between, which makes her flexible and she's really the only ranged AD that fits all team comps.
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On October 19 2011 05:50 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Is there any ad carry that Caitlyn isn't worse than out of lane on equal farm? Pure damage wise she should be ahead of ashe because of the passive, but then it'd depend upon how you rate their utility (which I feel anybody would rate ashe higher).
I mentioned this quite a few pages back, but Caitlyn really sucked at IEMNY (compared to her 100% winrate in China at least). If Caitlyn is still on the top of the totem pole (just under Kog'Maw though obviously), why did she do so poorly?
Twitch. :D
On October 19 2011 06:00 Requizen wrote:
She has some things that make up for her late game damage. Also, I think her passive is better damage wise than Ashe's, but that's just imoimo.
Her strength is zoning and area control. If given the opportunity to set traps and position herself before the fight, she's tremendously useful. If it's a spontaneous teamfight, she's bad. She's great at backdooring turrets; clear the wave with Q and the trap the area to prevent counterattacks. She can also initiate pretty well with Q or even R against an out of position Carry.
But Cait doesn't have the straight damage of Kog, Ez, or Vayne. They have their own weaknesses to make up for it. Cait plays somewhere in the middle: not as much utility as Ashe, not as much damage as Kog, not as much mobility as... I guess Ez with his Flash. She's in between, which makes her flexible and she's really the only ranged AD that fits all team comps.
Isn't Trist just as flexible, and better lategame? Cait's really only niche is a strong early-game which allows her to possibly deny cs/set up kills in lane/zone the other team's AD.
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I think they need to go back and speed up ashe's projectile. I dunno if its just me, but it seems slower than every other ranged ad.
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It feels even slower when you activate Q.
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On October 19 2011 06:15 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 05:50 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Is there any ad carry that Caitlyn isn't worse than out of lane on equal farm? Pure damage wise she should be ahead of ashe because of the passive, but then it'd depend upon how you rate their utility (which I feel anybody would rate ashe higher).
I mentioned this quite a few pages back, but Caitlyn really sucked at IEMNY (compared to her 100% winrate in China at least). If Caitlyn is still on the top of the totem pole (just under Kog'Maw though obviously), why did she do so poorly? Twitch. :D Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 06:00 Requizen wrote:
She has some things that make up for her late game damage. Also, I think her passive is better damage wise than Ashe's, but that's just imoimo.
Her strength is zoning and area control. If given the opportunity to set traps and position herself before the fight, she's tremendously useful. If it's a spontaneous teamfight, she's bad. She's great at backdooring turrets; clear the wave with Q and the trap the area to prevent counterattacks. She can also initiate pretty well with Q or even R against an out of position Carry.
But Cait doesn't have the straight damage of Kog, Ez, or Vayne. They have their own weaknesses to make up for it. Cait plays somewhere in the middle: not as much utility as Ashe, not as much damage as Kog, not as much mobility as... I guess Ez with his Flash. She's in between, which makes her flexible and she's really the only ranged AD that fits all team comps. Isn't Trist just as flexible, and better lategame? Cait's really only niche is a strong early-game which allows her to possibly deny cs/set up kills in lane/zone the other team's AD.
Trist can't zone nearly as hard. Her only utility is her ult (sorta), everything else is straight damage or mobility. Cait brings some utility with traps. Her Ult is a big burst that finishes/initiates on squishies and she has a reliable AoE (Q). Trist is actually very inflexible: she does good single target damage and that's about it. Her AoE comes from her jump (not gonna use that in a teamfight) or Explosive Shot (requires a kill, not huge damage). She doesn't really have zone control like Cait does, or the single shot burst of Cait's ult.
Similar, but different. I'd say Trist is better late game because she can rock a single target from 100%-dead faster, and has a bigger escape tool, but Cait brings a few more things to the table, objectively.
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I would argue that Trist's E is utility. It's really good against life steals/healers.
And you do use W in team fights, knowing when to W into team fights is probably the hardest part of playing Tristana.
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On October 19 2011 05:08 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 04:56 mr_tolkien wrote:On October 19 2011 03:59 Juicyfruit wrote:
If you want early level dominance, flat CDR blues would be better than flat AP blues. AP doesn't increase your mana costs. Better CDs do and are thus a bad choice for early related rune setups. It kinda does and it kinda doesn't. An extra 9AP vs 5% CDR doesn't break the lane much either way, but basically if your cooldowns are up a little faster, your damage over time becomes slightly more condensed, which means it has more chance of being significant enough in the face of potions, levelups and all that jazz. Since his goal as Kassadin is to bash someone hard enough early game with just Q alone, getting that 1 extra Q before they hit a level up is likely going to play a bigger factor than 5-6 extra damage per Q after taking resistances into consideration. Plus it just seems like you're more likely to get a kill if your Q comes up half a second sooner when you're chasing someone slightly past their tower, vs having it do 5 more damage. Personally I wouldn't use either, l0l.
no, flat cdr doesnt help that much because of the simple reason that you cannot throw every Q on the second its ready. mb you have to dodge sth, mb the guy runs from it etc. Also the dps increase is higher with just 10 more ap you get about 8% increase in damage on your Q and with flat cdr it would be almost 6% dps if you would be able to throw every Q the second its ready, which you often cannot, so you waste all that cdr. ofc the cdr would be a cool thing later on but that's not the point as explained.
Try it out its pretty neat what you can do at lvl1-3 with a cheesy runeset. Even doing it on singed sometimes (if my opponent cannot kite me well).
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On October 19 2011 03:11 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 03:08 daemir wrote:
MR runes, null magic opening on cass, shrug at the null sphere and autoattack back, probably end up winning that trade. Not to mention if you get in range to Q as kass, you are in range to eat Q from cass. It's gonna cast before she gets silenced. That's a laughablely weak Cass for the first 15 min of the game then. No AP Cass is not going to hurt a Kass with Q.
vs Kass open boots/3 and rush Chalice.
Yes, chalice.
enjoy.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On October 19 2011 06:46 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 03:11 NeoIllusions wrote:On October 19 2011 03:08 daemir wrote:
MR runes, null magic opening on cass, shrug at the null sphere and autoattack back, probably end up winning that trade. Not to mention if you get in range to Q as kass, you are in range to eat Q from cass. It's gonna cast before she gets silenced. That's a laughablely weak Cass for the first 15 min of the game then. No AP Cass is not going to hurt a Kass with Q. vs Kass open boots/3 and rush Chalice. Yes, chalice. enjoy.
enjoy what, getting zoned? the only counter to kass is being a really fast wave clearer or having huge sustain.
cho'gath is a huge counter to kass mid, swain also does quite well
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On October 19 2011 06:15 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 05:50 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Is there any ad carry that Caitlyn isn't worse than out of lane on equal farm? Pure damage wise she should be ahead of ashe because of the passive, but then it'd depend upon how you rate their utility (which I feel anybody would rate ashe higher).
I mentioned this quite a few pages back, but Caitlyn really sucked at IEMNY (compared to her 100% winrate in China at least). If Caitlyn is still on the top of the totem pole (just under Kog'Maw though obviously), why did she do so poorly? Twitch. :D
Are you arguing that twitch is weaker than Caitlyn with equal farm? Twitch might actually be the strongest scaling AD in the game(I say might because I'm writing this really quickly and want to have a possible out, but I am fairly certain it's true). His problem is a separate entity entirely, but if Twitch manages to get farmed(which is borderline impossible in a game with 'good' players) he's beyond fucking scary, Kog doesn't have shit on a fed rat(and by extension, neither does Cait).
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On October 19 2011 06:50 Brees wrote:
cho'gath is a huge counter to kass mid, swain also does quite well
Doesn't Swain lack range to respond to Kassadin's harass? Also, he pushes quite slowly and lacks health sustain before his ult.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On October 19 2011 06:58 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 06:50 Brees wrote:
cho'gath is a huge counter to kass mid, swain also does quite well Doesn't Swain lack range to respond to Kassadin's harass? Also, he pushes quite slowly and lacks health sustain before his ult.
swain's weakness is 1-5 in most cases and kass's 1-5 is also pretty bad so it lets swain get his 6 easy. then you both get blue and swain wins easily.
this also goes further then laning, kass has a hard time jumping on swain compared to most AP as he is pretty beefy and does massive damage at close range...
kennen wins until 6, he'll probably call for a gank 1-5 then be fine. dunno if its the definitive counter.
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On October 19 2011 06:50 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 06:46 r.Evo wrote:On October 19 2011 03:11 NeoIllusions wrote:On October 19 2011 03:08 daemir wrote:
MR runes, null magic opening on cass, shrug at the null sphere and autoattack back, probably end up winning that trade. Not to mention if you get in range to Q as kass, you are in range to eat Q from cass. It's gonna cast before she gets silenced. That's a laughablely weak Cass for the first 15 min of the game then. No AP Cass is not going to hurt a Kass with Q. vs Kass open boots/3 and rush Chalice. Yes, chalice. enjoy. enjoy what, getting zoned? the only counter to kass is being a really fast wave clearer or having huge sustain. cho'gath is a huge counter to kass mid, swain also does quite well
So I was pondering last night how to counter kass mid as an ap carry, and I realized that kennen could be a decent counter from the top of my head. I managed to trade damage by using passive/w, and worked pretty well. Granted this is a ~1350 matchup, does it hold up at higher elo?
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On October 19 2011 06:59 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 06:58 Alaric wrote:On October 19 2011 06:50 Brees wrote:
cho'gath is a huge counter to kass mid, swain also does quite well Doesn't Swain lack range to respond to Kassadin's harass? Also, he pushes quite slowly and lacks health sustain before his ult. swain's weakness is 1-5 in most cases and kass's 1-5 is also pretty bad so it lets swain get his 6 easy. then you both get blue and swain wins easily. this also goes further then laning, kass has a hard time jumping on swain compared to most AP as he is pretty beefy and does massive damage at close range...
Swain does actually quite well vs kass pre6 aswell, you can throw your shit on kass after he uses Q or he'll miss cs, and if he cses with his Q on cd you can root him and throw your shit on him. Ofc you won't do any damage if he runs full mres but don't think there are many players who run full mres on kass.
Also sion seems to do well vs kass.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 19 2011 06:59 spacemonkey4eve wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 06:50 Brees wrote:On October 19 2011 06:46 r.Evo wrote:On October 19 2011 03:11 NeoIllusions wrote:On October 19 2011 03:08 daemir wrote:
MR runes, null magic opening on cass, shrug at the null sphere and autoattack back, probably end up winning that trade. Not to mention if you get in range to Q as kass, you are in range to eat Q from cass. It's gonna cast before she gets silenced. That's a laughablely weak Cass for the first 15 min of the game then. No AP Cass is not going to hurt a Kass with Q. vs Kass open boots/3 and rush Chalice. Yes, chalice. enjoy. enjoy what, getting zoned? the only counter to kass is being a really fast wave clearer or having huge sustain. cho'gath is a huge counter to kass mid, swain also does quite well So I was pondering last night how to counter kass mid as an ap carry, and I realized that kennen could be a decent counter from the top of my head. I managed to trade damage by using passive/e, and worked pretty well. Granted this is a ~1350 matchup, does it hold up at higher elo?
IIRC, the discussion a few months back concluded that Kassadin shits on Kennen (and this was pre-nerf Kennen). Kennen can't Q you through creeps while you can Q him. If he tries to proc on you with a W-charged auto, you Q him to block followup spells. If he tries to full-on engage on you with E, you crush him with your passive + W.
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On October 19 2011 06:59 spacemonkey4eve wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 06:50 Brees wrote:On October 19 2011 06:46 r.Evo wrote:On October 19 2011 03:11 NeoIllusions wrote:On October 19 2011 03:08 daemir wrote:
MR runes, null magic opening on cass, shrug at the null sphere and autoattack back, probably end up winning that trade. Not to mention if you get in range to Q as kass, you are in range to eat Q from cass. It's gonna cast before she gets silenced. That's a laughablely weak Cass for the first 15 min of the game then. No AP Cass is not going to hurt a Kass with Q. vs Kass open boots/3 and rush Chalice. Yes, chalice. enjoy. enjoy what, getting zoned? the only counter to kass is being a really fast wave clearer or having huge sustain. cho'gath is a huge counter to kass mid, swain also does quite well So I was pondering last night how to counter kass mid as an ap carry, and I realized that kennen could be a decent counter from the top of my head. I managed to trade damage by using passive/w, and worked pretty well. Granted this is a ~1350 matchup, does it hold up at higher elo?
Morg?
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On October 19 2011 07:04 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 06:59 spacemonkey4eve wrote:On October 19 2011 06:50 Brees wrote:On October 19 2011 06:46 r.Evo wrote:On October 19 2011 03:11 NeoIllusions wrote:On October 19 2011 03:08 daemir wrote:
MR runes, null magic opening on cass, shrug at the null sphere and autoattack back, probably end up winning that trade. Not to mention if you get in range to Q as kass, you are in range to eat Q from cass. It's gonna cast before she gets silenced. That's a laughablely weak Cass for the first 15 min of the game then. No AP Cass is not going to hurt a Kass with Q. vs Kass open boots/3 and rush Chalice. Yes, chalice. enjoy. enjoy what, getting zoned? the only counter to kass is being a really fast wave clearer or having huge sustain. cho'gath is a huge counter to kass mid, swain also does quite well So I was pondering last night how to counter kass mid as an ap carry, and I realized that kennen could be a decent counter from the top of my head. I managed to trade damage by using passive/e, and worked pretty well. Granted this is a ~1350 matchup, does it hold up at higher elo? IIRC, the discussion a few months back concluded that Kassadin shits on Kennen (and this was pre-nerf Kennen). Kennen can't Q you through creeps while you can Q him. If he tries to proc on you with a W-charged auto, you Q him to block followup spells. If he tries to full-on engage on you with E, you crush him with your passive + W.
I don't even bother trying to hit him with q unless he's open. As for the silence, what I tend to do before 6 is proc his w with the auto AND move towards him to be in range for the active W (which is larger than his aoe slow ability). I noticed that I came out ahead in each exchange, and I zoned the shit out of him til 6 to prevent him from getting enough sustain items. I usually get hextech/wota my first trip back so unless I get ganked by jungler, I can trade blows with him and come out ahead. As I said, I don't know if this will work at higher ELO
Morg?
This is ranked...
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On October 19 2011 07:08 spacemonkey4eve wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:04 TheYango wrote:On October 19 2011 06:59 spacemonkey4eve wrote:On October 19 2011 06:50 Brees wrote:On October 19 2011 06:46 r.Evo wrote:On October 19 2011 03:11 NeoIllusions wrote:On October 19 2011 03:08 daemir wrote:
MR runes, null magic opening on cass, shrug at the null sphere and autoattack back, probably end up winning that trade. Not to mention if you get in range to Q as kass, you are in range to eat Q from cass. It's gonna cast before she gets silenced. That's a laughablely weak Cass for the first 15 min of the game then. No AP Cass is not going to hurt a Kass with Q. vs Kass open boots/3 and rush Chalice. Yes, chalice. enjoy. enjoy what, getting zoned? the only counter to kass is being a really fast wave clearer or having huge sustain. cho'gath is a huge counter to kass mid, swain also does quite well So I was pondering last night how to counter kass mid as an ap carry, and I realized that kennen could be a decent counter from the top of my head. I managed to trade damage by using passive/e, and worked pretty well. Granted this is a ~1350 matchup, does it hold up at higher elo? IIRC, the discussion a few months back concluded that Kassadin shits on Kennen (and this was pre-nerf Kennen). Kennen can't Q you through creeps while you can Q him. If he tries to proc on you with a W-charged auto, you Q him to block followup spells. If he tries to full-on engage on you with E, you crush him with your passive + W. I don't even bother trying to hit him with q unless he's open. As for the silence, what I tend to do before 6 is proc his w with the auto AND move towards him to be in range for the active W (which is larger than his aoe slow ability). I noticed that I came out ahead in each exchange, and I zoned the shit out of him til 6 to prevent him from getting enough sustain items. I usually get hextech/wota my first trip back so unless I get ganked by jungler, I can trade blows with him and come out ahead. As I said, I don't know if this will work at higher ELO This is ranked...
Cho?
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I don't understand your last remark, morg actually lanes very well vs kass if not shits on him and she isn't permaban anymore.
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On October 19 2011 07:12 JackDino wrote:
I don't understand your last remark, morg actually lanes very well vs kass if not shits on him and she isn't permaban anymore.
in NA she is almost every game
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EPT
