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On September 20 2011 07:01 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:44 mr_tolkien wrote:
What do you answer to a guy telling you that Madred's Bloodrazor is the worst possible object on any AD carry, especially Kog Maw, and being very very sure about that ? Madred is a very poor item for AD champs. There are very few champs that can make use of it because you: 1) Need to have magic pen to make the 4% damage worthwhile. It's magic damage. A lot of people seem to think for some reason it's true damage or whatever. It's plain simple magic damage. 4% mitigated down by whatever magic resistance a player has. 2) The champ needs magic pen and atackspeed to get the most out of it. This is a pretty rare combination. Some champions that can get away with it for example are Teemo, Warwick and Kog'maw. But even on them the item seems to be very expensive whilst providing some very strange stats. For example you are paying gold for the AD on the madred, but when you want to work with the madred you need magic pen. It provides 2 things of wich only half you can truly use. If you just want the 4% then you are overpaying, if you use the AD then there are better items. Imo bloodrazor is one of the worst items in the game. Perhaps this is compounded by the fact that i can't play atackspeed champions very well but i feel that even if i could play them well, the bloodrazor would be a bad item. I recall someone doing the math on it and proving that it's a rather poor item. Ill try and see if i can find it. But all in all, bloodrazor is imo a rather poor item that you should rarely build and certainly never on an AD build.
And on Kog ? This was the center of the discussion, and at IEM, every game where there was a Kog Maw and they won, he had rushed Madred's Bloodrazor as first item (one time with TSM, one with CLG, one with Fnatic). The 2 lost (Millenium) were when the Kog rushed IE.
Knowing that the AD carry is one of the main source of damage output in teamfights, it seems to me that Madred's on Kog is a very good item, or at least can be standard.
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Madred's is definitely not a cost-effective item on its own; it's the combination with Malady that makes it very effective.
Kog Teemo and WW all make great use of the combination of both items because of their abilities as well, but there are very few other champions that the case could be made for.
Best just to spend your 4k on AD items for AD range champs.
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After first few Maokai jungle tries, feels like he could be fun, but you definitely have to study it a bit beforehand. Can't really rush wriggles it seems, very mana dependant, and low damage output at the start.
Also, slow and easy to counterjungle. I'll have to try harder. I'm also leaving aside non-champ-related problems like teammates stealing your jungle then complaining about your non-efficiency when you're 3 levels behind everybody. x)
Edit: wow. There was apparently a jungling Malzahar on xPeke stream? Must have been a troll.
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Did they lose because they built IE or because they got outplayed though? Madreds costs 3800 gold, and the passive isn't even good in the mid game when people have 1500 health. Buy a recurve as your first item all you want, but upgrading it into a bloodrazer seems like a waste of money in every respect.
I like opening Phantom Dancer personally because kogmaw lacks an escape so the movespeed is amazing and it provides attack speed. The crit also has perfect synergy with my eventual Infinity Edge.
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Two_DoWn's op kog guide:
press w.
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On September 20 2011 08:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Did they lose because they built IE or because they got outplayed though? Madreds costs 3800 gold, and the passive isn't even good in the mid game when people have 1500 health. Buy a recurve as your first item all you want, but upgrading it into a bloodrazer seems like a waste of money in every respect.
I like opening Phantom Dancer personally because kogmaw lacks an escape so the movespeed is amazing and it provides attack speed. The crit also has perfect synergy with my eventual Infinity Edge.
It's hard to say a team lost because of a single item choice, but the AS on bloodrazor's helps Kog's built in bloodrazor.
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On September 20 2011 08:20 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:01 zalz wrote:On September 20 2011 06:44 mr_tolkien wrote:
What do you answer to a guy telling you that Madred's Bloodrazor is the worst possible object on any AD carry, especially Kog Maw, and being very very sure about that ? Madred is a very poor item for AD champs. There are very few champs that can make use of it because you: 1) Need to have magic pen to make the 4% damage worthwhile. It's magic damage. A lot of people seem to think for some reason it's true damage or whatever. It's plain simple magic damage. 4% mitigated down by whatever magic resistance a player has. 2) The champ needs magic pen and atackspeed to get the most out of it. This is a pretty rare combination. Some champions that can get away with it for example are Teemo, Warwick and Kog'maw. But even on them the item seems to be very expensive whilst providing some very strange stats. For example you are paying gold for the AD on the madred, but when you want to work with the madred you need magic pen. It provides 2 things of wich only half you can truly use. If you just want the 4% then you are overpaying, if you use the AD then there are better items. Imo bloodrazor is one of the worst items in the game. Perhaps this is compounded by the fact that i can't play atackspeed champions very well but i feel that even if i could play them well, the bloodrazor would be a bad item. I recall someone doing the math on it and proving that it's a rather poor item. Ill try and see if i can find it. But all in all, bloodrazor is imo a rather poor item that you should rarely build and certainly never on an AD build. And on Kog ? This was the center of the discussion, and at IEM, every game where there was a Kog Maw and they won, he had rushed Madred's Bloodrazor as first item (one time with TSM, one with CLG, one with Fnatic). The 2 lost (Millenium) were when the Kog rushed IE. Knowing that the AD carry is one of the main source of damage output in teamfights, it seems to me that Madred's on Kog is a very good item, or at least can be standard.
Kog's W is just a better version of Blood Razor in terms of damage. By building AD on him you're doing magic and physical damage. If you go with standard Blood Razor build you're really only doing magic damage which makes you easier to build against. You also don't take towers as effectively. Madred's is still good on Kog but I think there are reasons to build IE. I also don't think the teams that lost had lost because of AD Kog at IEM. That's like saying AP Janna won every game she was played in and is therefore better than support Janna.
The fact that most pro players will agree that building Blood Razor or IE as first big item on Kog is acceptable kind of goes with what I'm trying to articulate. I'm pretty sure that doing a standard AD carry build on Kog will result in more damage late game than doing the BR build. Especially since you're the AD carry and by going with BR your opponents only really have to build MR.
I think both builds work and it's ultimately situational.
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5hit jungling shaco (edit: badly) in game with dyrus/doublelift streaming
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On September 20 2011 09:27 UniversalSnip wrote:
5hit jungling shaco (edit: badly) in game with dyrus/doublelift streaming
Dan Dinh as Teemo in that game getting some hilarious mushroom kills.
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Summoners,
On September 20, 2011, we will be performing scheduled database maintenance starting at 01:00AM Pacific time. The maintenance should last approximately 7 hours long. During this downtime, we will continue to upgrade our databases in preparation for League of Legends: Dominion.
Also during this downtime, we’ll be fixing the Elo bug and resetting Season One rank wins/losses. Following the maintenance, rank games will be re-enabled and normal draft will be disabled due to load concerns.
Thank you for your understanding and patience. Enjoy a night’s rest from the Fields of Justice and see you online following the maintenance!
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QQ normal draft disabled.
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United States17233 Posts
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Normal draft was a good idea but it just wouldn't work. Unless you 5 man'd normal draft then it would take FOREVER to start a game with all the queue dodges. Also, it split normal games into 2 different queues which makes queue times even longer, especially for high Elo players.
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normal draft blew, it was too troll
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Me so sad, I love Draft and still lvl 18. 
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shaco can take both buffs at level 1 by 2:15
problem is that bot lane has fed so hard every game that i can't carry despite putting my team ahead by 5 kills and a dragon in under ten minutes x.x
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Reason to go a BR build for Kog: When you lack the support or cc to defend you and want to go a build that will work better with a more tank oriented attack speed build. Even then I'd say Wit's End before BR then work into the mallet/veil/whatever you plan on building. Not a real "set" order pretty situational.
Reason to go standard IE route for kog: You have support and your team is heavily reliant on your dps.
Reason to go BR on any ranged carry: 5th/6th slot item after you have completed IE PD Last Whisper since buying more AD will not net you as much damage as adding a bloodrazer would when targeting armor targets. Dealing both magic and phys damage is a good thing. Rarely do you see builds reach this far and is really only applicable when the other team lacks the cc to take you out of a fight. Buying items to counter cc like veil qss are more often chosen.
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On September 20 2011 09:43 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:27 UniversalSnip wrote:
5hit jungling shaco (edit: badly) in game with dyrus/doublelift streaming Dan Dinh as Teemo in that game getting some hilarious mushroom kills.
"I called him shitcombo for the longest time without trying to be offensive."
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United States17233 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:52 HazMat wrote:
Normal draft was a good idea but it just wouldn't work. Unless you 5 man'd normal draft then it would take FOREVER to start a game with all the queue dodges. Also, it split normal games into 2 different queues which makes queue times even longer, especially for high Elo players.
normal queues are going to be high for high elo premades regardless, and regular normals will always been very short queues
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Building BR on Sivir is a great idea. It looks great next to your IE, BT and Triforce 30 mins into the game.
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On September 20 2011 10:05 mrgerry wrote:
Reason to go a BR build for Kog: When you lack the support or cc to defend you and want to go a build that will work better with a more tank oriented attack speed build. Even then I'd say Wit's End before BR then work into the mallet/veil/whatever you plan on building. Not a real "set" order pretty situational.
Reason to go standard IE route for kog: You have support and your team is heavily reliant on your dps.
Reason to go BR on any ranged carry: 5th/6th slot item after you have completed IE PD Last Whisper since buying more AD will not net you as much damage as adding a bloodrazer would when targeting armor targets. Dealing both magic and phys damage is a good thing. Rarely do you see builds reach this far and is really only applicable when the other team lacks the cc to take you out of a fight. Buying items to counter cc like veil qss are more often chosen.
How would a BR be better than a BT when you have IE, PD, and Last Whisper? The only way that'd make sense is if the entire enemy team stacked warmogs and armor and built 0 MR (aka tons of health and no mr with lots of armor). The BT scales off your crit and arpen while the BR only scales off the enemy health and gets negated by any MR they've built. Both scale off the aspd so I left it out.
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EPT
