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On September 14 2011 01:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 01:39 Southlight wrote:
Squishies often stay low but good squishies usually stay away from most of your burst anyways. Otherwise you're generally looking at most people having AT LEAST 100 MR pretty easily off of one Negatron. Using Annie Q as an example, you only need ~15 AP for Sorcs to beat the damage increase from Blasting Wand's 40 AP vs. a 100 MR target, or ~115 AP vs a 150 MR target (numbers that you easily beat while building toward Deathcap). They don't become THAT cost-ineffective vs. tankier targets till past 150 MR--where the breakeven AP levels start to get unrealistically high. Having the really strong 20% damage boost vs. squishier targets feels worth it to me when you're not sacrificing that much damage vs. tankier targets at all.
the missing piece of this equation is how flat MPen gets devalued by Archaic Mastery and Void Staff.
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Also getting 15 minutes out of them is debatable because if you truly want a pure AP build you'd just run 2/3 DRing -> Cap -> Void, which with blue buff on AP carries gets farmed relatively quickly.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 14 2011 01:52 Southlight wrote:
Except it costs 750 gold, so you delay your NLR/deathcap by a significant amount. Would you rather have the sorc boot or the NLR?
When have you ever needed to make that comparison? Of couse if you have 1600 gold on hand you'll always buy the NLR, but if you back with 1k gold in hand, you're not going to just back to lane with nothing and intentionally put yourself at a 1k gold item disadvantage to your lane opponent--and if you're choosing between Blasting Wand and Sorcs, it's not actually that bad of a comparison for Sorcs.
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I would put myself at the "1k gold disadvantage" because if I'm farming for an NLR I am farming for an NLR.
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I will get sorcs on nearly every ap carry that I lane against a squishy. While I cant claim to have done the math, it feels like the damage increase from sorcs is larger than any item you can get save NLR. But the other part of sorcs is that you get the damage boost AND the speed boost, and for characters like orianna and annie that can mean the difference between kills and not.
Oh, and never run mp5 anymore, on anyone. Ive been running armor yellows and cant tell the difference on casters.
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On September 14 2011 01:56 Two_DoWn wrote:
Oh, and never run mp5 anymore, on anyone. Ive been running armor yellows and cant tell the difference on casters.
I've been doing this for.... 6 months? basically since I went on Jarman tear.
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I still run yellow mp5 because I'm too lazy to change a runepage I rarely use anymore >_>
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United States47024 Posts
On September 14 2011 01:55 Southlight wrote:
I would put myself at the "1k gold disadvantage" because if I'm farming for an NLR I am farming for an NLR.
Shouldn't any competent enemy laner be able to zone the shit out of you off banking that kind of money, seeing as having 1k gold banked is more of a gold disparity than dying twice?
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On September 14 2011 01:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 01:39 Southlight wrote:
Squishies often stay low but good squishies usually stay away from most of your burst anyways. Otherwise you're generally looking at most people having AT LEAST 100 MR pretty easily off of one Negatron. Using Annie Q as an example, you only need ~15 AP for Sorcs to beat the damage increase from Blasting Wand's 40 AP vs. a 100 MR target, or ~115 AP vs a 150 MR target (numbers that you easily beat while building toward Deathcap). They don't become THAT cost-ineffective vs. tankier targets till past 150 MR--where the breakeven AP levels start to get unrealistically high. Having the really strong 20% damage boost vs. squishier targets feels worth it to me when you're not sacrificing that much damage vs. tankier targets at all. Sorcs obviously become really bad at the point where you want/are getting Void Staff, but seeing as you're getting a good 15 minutes' use out of them, it doesn't feel that bad to me.
I agree with the 15 minutes. If you're playing a good mobile dominant AP character like you're supposed to then the sorc boots pay off in the ability to make kills and also to travel across the map. Which then snowballs into later payoff for you as you gain a larger CS/Kill advantage either by them not being able to play the game or you able to play it to your hearts content.
That said, the counter to this would be the fact that you might be camping mid for long periods of time which results in you farming up a good 3000+ g at 15~ mins so you can make your purchase decision from there, which seems to be mercs as a default choice. Under which idea is the merc treads supposed to fit under, a more tanky/fighty character or one that's more easily able to get away from ganks? Because so far I really haven't felt the imperative need that where I thought "wow if that stun had lasted .3 sec v. .5 I would have lived.
Also I haven't seen discussion about the natural magic pen of hero's moves ie, Annie recently had a lot of magic pen changes just to her spells to make her damage more viable in games, how does that work with rune/gear based APen? Just flat additive?
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On September 14 2011 02:10 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 01:55 Southlight wrote:
I would put myself at the "1k gold disadvantage" because if I'm farming for an NLR I am farming for an NLR. Shouldn't any competent enemy laner be able to zone the shit out of you off banking that kind of money, seeing as having 1k gold banked is more of a gold disparity than dying twice?
No because by your logic saving up for BFSword on bottom lane AD in a relatively equal lane would equate to suicide. The reality is that most players have varying levels of bank, and if someone looks at a guy who backed with money and didn't buy anything and decides to buy a Blast/Sorc/2 more DRings and thinks they're automatically going to nuke someone off lane then the guy getting zoned is also probably playing wrong.
Assuming both players played relatively evenly you're going to look at 2-3 dring + boot on both sides. If one guy decides to keep 1k banked and the other guy spends, you're not looking at a big enough disparity to change anything.
... it's why AP carries in particular tend not to give two cents how fed their opponent is, as long as they're still getting their farm and they're not getting one-shot.
Edit:
The real disparity comes if someone gets NLR faster than the other (ie. one gets BFSword before the other) but that's still not an insurmountable issue. It sucks, sure, but you don't automatically loses the lane/game.
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On September 14 2011 02:13 Thurokiir wrote:
Also I haven't seen discussion about the natural magic pen of hero's moves ie, Annie recently had a lot of magic pen changes just to her spells to make her damage more viable in games, how does that work with rune/gear based APen? Just flat additive?
what the fuck are you talking about?
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On September 14 2011 02:17 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 02:13 Thurokiir wrote:
Also I haven't seen discussion about the natural magic pen of hero's moves ie, Annie recently had a lot of magic pen changes just to her spells to make her damage more viable in games, how does that work with rune/gear based APen? Just flat additive? what the fuck are you talking about?
You didn't know? Apparently every champ has like 10-30 innate Mpen on every single spell.
He's probs confusing base damage with mpen or smth since annie's base dmg got buffed many patches ago.
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On September 14 2011 01:25 Southlight wrote:Yeeeah. I dunno, I'd rather get that quick NLR->Deathcap than invest freaking 750 into a Sorc Boots. I'll usually only upgrade to Tier 2 Boots if I desperately need some sort of defense, otherwise for AP heroes in particular I don't find a pressing need to upgrade. Much more important to hit core items faster. Edit: Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 01:25 Requizen wrote:
Really? Doesn't make much sense, but I'm sure you probably know better. Care to explain the reasoning? 20 flat mpen is useless when they have like 150+ MR. Void Staff will chunk down most of that, along with the 15% mastery, so the 20 ends up being like 10. 750 gold for 10 mpen is really cost inefficient. I only get sorc boots on heroes like Annie and Aniv if I'm doing the cheesy mpen + sorc + guise build and just fucking people up in the first 20 minutes.
Many burst casters get a lot out of fast Sorc Boots. Having a movespeed advantage and 30 MPen is pretty damn strong.
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On September 14 2011 02:19 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 02:17 Mogwai wrote:On September 14 2011 02:13 Thurokiir wrote:
Also I haven't seen discussion about the natural magic pen of hero's moves ie, Annie recently had a lot of magic pen changes just to her spells to make her damage more viable in games, how does that work with rune/gear based APen? Just flat additive? what the fuck are you talking about? You didn't know? Apparently every champ has like 10-30 innate Mpen on every single spell. He's probs confusing base damage with mpen or smth since annie's base dmg got buffed many patches ago.
what the fuck are you talking about?
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On September 13 2011 22:33 -Kato- wrote:
Wow could you get to the point of actually healing an an enemy?
In order for Galio to heal enemies you'd need -230 MR for level 1 Q and -240 MR for level 1 E. In order to take extra damage instead of heal you'd need -170 MR for level 1 W.
These are attainable values.
Soraka: -120 MR
Heimer: -50 MR
Karthus: -35 MR
Amumu: -35 MR
Morgana: -40 MR
Abyssal: -20 MR
Malady: -24 MR
Galio's Base MR: +30
Total: -294 MR
At that point Q should be healing for 23, E for 13.5, and W will cause Galio to take 14.6 extra damage.
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8748 Posts
As long as people are talking a little about boots, I've thought that for AP mid, boots of mobility or swiftness would be better than sorc boots. For example I think they'd be great with LeBlanc lvl 6-11 or so, for getting full combos off in lane and also for getting to other lanes faster than normal. Even if the 20 MR means she isn't getting kills, anyone she fulls combos or lands a snare on almost always has to go back, and that should get towers/dragons more consistently than hoping for surprise kills.
And the boots would be better defensively against skill shot champs (morg, brand) and ganks. Any time they miss a skill shot, you are almost guaranteed to hit them back while their shit is on CD and you have faster move speed. And it'd be harder for them to push the lane without getting punished for it because you charge at them when they want to go cast their W.
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I would never get swifties, ever. I just hate them as a boot. The possibilities you give up for a TINY bit of extra movespeed doesnt seem worth it. Mobility boots I would consider only if you plan on ganking a LOT and there are no stuns on the other team and they are all very tanky.
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Mobilities rape because they're funny as shit.
I guess I'm trying to say I like the idea.
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I only really see Mobility as roamer/jungler/ganker boots. If you're in lane for long periods of time, you almost need those other advantages. However, if you're constantly running around, getting from A to B to set up kills or save someone is important.
Swiftness are meh. The boost isn't noticeable enough in most situations, and most champs have enough escape tools. There's never really been a time where I though that +1 move would have saved me.
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EPT
