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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2011 06:16 Craton wrote:
Supposedly (according to Jatt) phoenix jungling is still super strong.
Phoenix got reverted to exactly the way it was before the nerf several months back. Meanwhile, the lack of Locket is mitigated by slashing his mana costs by 20 across the board (20 mana less on each stance is exactly the same as 20 mana returned on every cast).
As a jungler, Phoenix Udyr is perfectly fine. Any weaknesses it might have are those of Udyr's kit as a whole mid-late game.
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Ireland23340 Posts
Pheonix udyr isn't viable in competitive play IMO. No burst damage at all which wrecks your ability to teamfight mid/late game even if you're an absolute beast in small scale fights.
I saw a game with bigfatjiji urgot getting like 6 kills on ezrael but Jatts udyr with wriggles+randuins+fon just literally 1v5'd his way to victory it was ridiculous. That's solo queue though, in ranked I don't think it works so well.
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Why would you need burst damage as a jungle tank? Jungle phoenix Udyr's purpose is to disrupt the enemy team, not dish out a ton of damage.
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i think pheonix is really strong because you don't need to build wriggles with it, freeing up 1600 gold gives you so many superior builds
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Ireland23340 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:02 arnath wrote:
Why would you need burst damage as a jungle tank? Jungle phoenix Udyr's purpose is to disrupt the enemy team, not dish out a ton of damage.
Every other viable jungle tank has burst damage. amumu, nunu, jarvan. Also; "distrupting the enemy team" involves stunning them all once, something amumu can do instantly. Add this on to the fact udyr wont be able to stun the carries anyway without putting himself in serious danger of dying while team kites him since you have no hard initiate ability, he doesn't really fit the criteria of tank since he doesn't do that much cc and he doesn't intitiate fights effectively. Your role as udyr is to do damage to some extent. Tanks become less a less relevant as the game goes on because if you keep building tank you get ignored and outscaled in terms of damage anyway.
Udyr is terrible versus burst damage because of the way he works in that he is only tanky when he survives for a long time and his lack of burst damage means you want to stay alive the whole fight, so it suits a style of play that stays somewhat in the back defending carries and taking easy shots and only going in when you can't be bursted down.
I don't understand why pheonix is suddenly tank full tank and tiger is like tanky dps when they are literally both damage abilities and its turtle that gives him surviability and bear that gives him utility. The only difference between tiger and pheonix is that pheonix is arguably better sustained damage and tiger has burst damage and scales better.
You don't need to build wriggles on tiger udyr either, but its such a good item you have no reason to skip it. Wriggles is a very cost effective item.
Jatt builds wriggles on pheonix udyr afaik.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:17 UniversalSnip wrote:
i think pheonix is really strong because you don't need to build wriggles with it, freeing up 1600 gold gives you so many superior builds
You should still buy Wriggle's on Phoenix Udyr.
On August 12 2011 08:38 Slayer91 wrote:
You don't need to build wriggles on tiger udyr either, but its such a good item you have no reason to skip it. Wriggles is a very cost effective item.
Jatt builds wriggles on pheonix udyr afaik.
So does TheOddOne.
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Ireland23340 Posts
It's possible 1-2-3 points in pheonix is viable because of how good it is early game but it hurts you later when your tiger is underleveled but it may be viable because of how much time you save clearing small camps.
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If you're a true boss you could go for lvl 1-3 Turtle stance and max both tiger and Phoenix for max dmg spam
On August 12 2011 08:38 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 08:02 arnath wrote:
Why would you need burst damage as a jungle tank? Jungle phoenix Udyr's purpose is to disrupt the enemy team, not dish out a ton of damage. Every other viable jungle tank has burst damage. amumu, nunu, jarvan. Also; "distrupting the enemy team" involves stunning them all once, something amumu can do instantly. Add this on to the fact udyr wont be able to stun the carries anyway without putting himself in serious danger of dying while team kites him since you have no hard initiate ability, he doesn't really fit the criteria of tank since he doesn't do that much cc and he doesn't intitiate fights effectively. Your role as udyr is to do damage to some extent. Tanks become less a less relevant as the game goes on because if you keep building tank you get ignored and outscaled in terms of damage anyway. Udyr is terrible versus burst damage because of the way he works in that he is only tanky when he survives for a long time and his lack of burst damage means you want to stay alive the whole fight, so it suits a style of play that stays somewhat in the back defending carries and taking easy shots and only going in when you can't be bursted down. I don't understand why pheonix is suddenly tank full tank and tiger is like tanky dps when they are literally both damage abilities and its turtle that gives him surviability and bear that gives him utility. The only difference between tiger and pheonix is that pheonix is arguably better sustained damage and tiger has burst damage and scales better. You don't need to build wriggles on tiger udyr either, but its such a good item you have no reason to skip it. Wriggles is a very cost effective item. Jatt builds wriggles on pheonix udyr afaik. Most of Amus dmg apart from ulti(which doesn't do much without AP) is actually pure DoT. Phoenix Udyr's a DoT tank as well, and he has his stuns so often that he can keep stunning people the entire battle. He's really strong in sustained battles but he doesn't have nearly as much frontloaded utility as champions with good ultis or with nice AoE disables like Jarvan.
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someone tell me how you lane against taric/panth bot.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:44 Slayer91 wrote:
It's possible 1-2-3 points in pheonix is viable because of how good it is early game but it hurts you later when your tiger is underleveled but it may be viable because of how much time you save clearing small camps.
This is the main draw of Phoenix imo. Neither Udyr is really that good late-game, but Phoenix with the most recent round of buffs affords you more flexibility in the jungle, even more than the pre-nerf Phoenix allowed you because the mana cost buffs make you way less blue dependent than you used to be.
On August 12 2011 08:46 Shikyo wrote:
Most of Amus dmg apart from ulti(which doesn't do much without AP) is actually pure DoT. Phoenix Udyr's a DoT tank as well, and he has his stuns so often that he can keep stunning people the entire battle. He's really strong in sustained battles but he doesn't have nearly as much frontloaded utility as champions with good ultis or with nice AoE disables like Jarvan.
Amumu's W, though, scales by itself simply by virtue of being a % max HP damage skill. Phoenix stance doesn't scale that way on its own. Jarvan similarly has % current HP damage on his passive, and provides % armor shred on Q, all of which scale wonderfully without itemization. Nunu doesn't have that kind of scaling, but he provides one of the best AS steroids in the game to 2 champs on your team, and throws out a ton of slows--in a sense he scales off your team's other damage dealers' scaling.
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Jatt doesn't consistently build wriggles, he seems to lean more toward wit's end as the main dps item. Wriggles gets built but not consistently.
Haven't really tried phoenix for a while, but the old rwrer then q=w>e probably still works, can even go the super aggressive version of r>q=w leaving e at 3.
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On August 12 2011 08:47 Kaneh wrote:
someone tell me how you lane against taric/panth bot.
A few important things:
#1 wave control, you must be absolutely precise with the wave control and can't let your turret push the wave back, it's by far easiest to do with Soraka and that's why you should pick Soraka against that combination
Ehh... That's it. If you control the minion waves flawlessly, they can't do shit and pantheon can't even farm.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Just throwing this out there as I don't play Udyr. But would 5 in Turtle+Bear+Phoenix and 3 in Bear work? Movespeed has really harsh decreasing efficiencies of gain. The extra MS you gain at level 5 compared to 3 after you factor in, say, Boots+Zeal+Utility Tree is virtually zero. The stun time doesn't increase either afaik.
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I would skip level 4 and 5 bear as I don't see myself ever staying in bear stance for the whole 4 seconds anyways, and a speed boost from 21 to 27% isn't better than an extra 100 burst damage.
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On August 12 2011 08:49 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 08:44 Slayer91 wrote:
It's possible 1-2-3 points in pheonix is viable because of how good it is early game but it hurts you later when your tiger is underleveled but it may be viable because of how much time you save clearing small camps. This is the main draw of Phoenix imo. Neither Udyr is really that good late-game, but Phoenix with the most recent round of buffs affords you more flexibility in the jungle, even more than the pre-nerf Phoenix allowed you because the mana cost buffs make you way less blue dependent than you used to be. Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 08:46 Shikyo wrote:
Most of Amus dmg apart from ulti(which doesn't do much without AP) is actually pure DoT. Phoenix Udyr's a DoT tank as well, and he has his stuns so often that he can keep stunning people the entire battle. He's really strong in sustained battles but he doesn't have nearly as much frontloaded utility as champions with good ultis or with nice AoE disables like Jarvan. Amumu's W, though, scales by itself simply by virtue of being a % max HP damage skill. Phoenix stance doesn't scale that way on its own. Jarvan similarly has % current HP damage on his passive, and provides % armor shred on Q, all of which scale wonderfully without itemization. Nunu doesn't have that kind of scaling, but he provides one of the best AS steroids in the game to 2 champs on your team, and throws out a ton of slows--in a sense he scales off your team's other damage dealers' scaling.
Well, that's slightly misleading. Without any AP, Udyr's phoenix stance deals 66 MDPS and Amumu's deals 24+2.7. Assuming a 2000 hp target, Amu only deals 12 dmg more. Amu's better against tanks of course, but that's never been Udyr's role, and those repeated stuns add up. I'm not saying he's better than Amumu but it might not be all that bad, especially as he can probably build a bit less tanky because of his spammable shield.
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On August 12 2011 09:00 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 08:49 TheYango wrote:On August 12 2011 08:44 Slayer91 wrote:
It's possible 1-2-3 points in pheonix is viable because of how good it is early game but it hurts you later when your tiger is underleveled but it may be viable because of how much time you save clearing small camps. This is the main draw of Phoenix imo. Neither Udyr is really that good late-game, but Phoenix with the most recent round of buffs affords you more flexibility in the jungle, even more than the pre-nerf Phoenix allowed you because the mana cost buffs make you way less blue dependent than you used to be. On August 12 2011 08:46 Shikyo wrote:
Most of Amus dmg apart from ulti(which doesn't do much without AP) is actually pure DoT. Phoenix Udyr's a DoT tank as well, and he has his stuns so often that he can keep stunning people the entire battle. He's really strong in sustained battles but he doesn't have nearly as much frontloaded utility as champions with good ultis or with nice AoE disables like Jarvan. Amumu's W, though, scales by itself simply by virtue of being a % max HP damage skill. Phoenix stance doesn't scale that way on its own. Jarvan similarly has % current HP damage on his passive, and provides % armor shred on Q, all of which scale wonderfully without itemization. Nunu doesn't have that kind of scaling, but he provides one of the best AS steroids in the game to 2 champs on your team, and throws out a ton of slows--in a sense he scales off your team's other damage dealers' scaling. Well, that's slightly misleading. Without any AP, Udyr's phoenix stance deals 66 MDPS and Amumu's deals 24+2.7. Assuming a 2000 hp target, Amu only deals 12 dmg more. Amu's better against tanks of course, but that's never been Udyr's role, and those repeated stuns add up. I'm not saying he's better than Amumu but it might not be all that bad, especially as he can probably build a bit less tanky because of his spammable shield.
The difference is you're not going to be staying in phoenix very often during teamfights as opposed to Amumu's constant crying.
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~two weeks, 75 rating, and a lot more effort than I really want to put into this game anymore.
Do I really wanna try to go for gold rating? :/
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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:55 MoonBear wrote:
Just throwing this out there as I don't play Udyr. But would 5 in Turtle+Bear+Phoenix and 3 in Bear work? Movespeed has really harsh decreasing efficiencies of gain. The extra MS you gain at level 5 compared to 3 after you factor in, say, Boots+Zeal+Utility Tree is virtually zero. The stun time doesn't increase either afaik.
AFAIK, the main issues don't arise endgame, but midgame, when you're maxing your first 2 stances. The first few levels of Phoenix delay Tiger or Turtle max, which is going to be most noticeable midgame.
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So basically: phoenix - easier time clearing small camps, pushes open lanes very fast, more AoE damage in fights.
Tiger - more DPS to towers, more DPS vs buffs, much stronger single-target damage.
What you go for should depend entirely on what you think you'd need to win the game.
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On August 12 2011 08:55 MoonBear wrote:
Just throwing this out there as I don't play Udyr. But would 5 in Turtle+Bear+Phoenix and 3 in Bear work? Movespeed has really harsh decreasing efficiencies of gain. The extra MS you gain at level 5 compared to 3 after you factor in, say, Boots+Zeal+Utility Tree is virtually zero. The stun time doesn't increase either afaik.
It is what some people had been doing for a while to maximize dps output, probably more viable now with the change in mana. It used to be a bit harder to leave e at 3 because the mana cost adds up, but that won't be a concern now.
On August 12 2011 09:06 Juicyfruit wrote:
So basically: phoenix - easier time clearing small camps, pushes open lanes very fast, more AoE damage in fights.
Tiger - more DPS to towers, more DPS vs buffs, much stronger single-target damage.
What you go for should depend entirely on what you think you'd need to win the game.
It is also a runes issue, Tiger and Phoenix use pretty different runes, the cookie cutter jungle runes aren't that efficient for Udyr.
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EPT
