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On August 02 2011 02:04 Ryuu314 wrote:
Dodge is more cost efficient and does more overall dmg reduction against physicalautoattacks. The downside is that it's more or less rng so it's not reliable at all unless youre playing a dodge beast like jax, udyr
Fixed, it's a pretty significant difference - dodge is a million times more effective against champions which rely on autoattacks strongly than they are against champions with undodgable low-CD abilities like Nasus or GP.
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say you have 30 Armor without factoring in seals. that's 23% damage reduction.
13 armor from seals makes this 30% damage reduction.
9 dodge seals is 6.75% dodge. 6.75% dodge means that 6.75% of the time you have 100% reduction and 93.25% of the time you have 23% reduction. Fully math this out and you get a total of 28% net damage reduction.
armor outperforms dodge in the long term in this case.
if you want to generalize it, you can find the break-even armor value of the two with this equation:
100/(100 + X + 13) = 93.25/(100 + X)
100(100 + X) = 93.25(100 + X + 13)
10000 + 100X = 10537.25 + 93.25X
6.75X = 537.25
X = ~80
so until you have about 80 armor from other sources, armor will generally outperform dodge seals. on top of all that, you should also factor in the fact that armor mitigates physical abilities like volley, spear shot, parley, etc, whereas dodge only works vs. auto-attacks and certain things are undodgeable like tower shots and attacks like Siphoning Strike and Ruthless Predator and you'll see that taking away the wtfbbqhax factor, dodge is generally going to be outperformed by armor. Now, that being said, the wtfbbqhax factor and nimbleness procs are worthwhile, but it's foolish to say they're more efficient when you haven't done the math.
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Armor definitely more reliable in more situations than dodge but I really like nimbleness/wtfbbqdodgehax though. Here's a post I made in the rune thread for those considering dodge:
On July 20 2011 21:33 Flakes wrote:
I run dodge yellows on nearly everyone (I generally run armor yellows on junglers), but for those who rune on a per-champion basis:
Champions with innate dodge (can therefore stack dodge as a reliable source of damage mitigation):
-Sivir - while moving
-Udyr - after switching stances
-Nidalee - while in cougar form
Champions who benefit from avoiding attacks:
-Miss Fortune - loses speed passive after being struck
-Teemo - loses speed passive after being struck
-Pantheon - loses shield passive after being struck (better used for tower hits)
-Malphite - passive shield regeneration time resets after being struck
-Garen - loses health regeneration passive after being struck
-Stealth champions - being struck delays stealth fade time
-Champions with mobility boots - being struck puts you into combat, lowering your speed
-Champions with Nimbleness mastery - the 2% from evasion is not enough to reliably proc
Champions who want to be hit (should not take dodge):
-Rammus - returns damage when hit during defensive ball curl
-Amumu - tantrum cooldown shortened when hit
-Galio - bulwark heal and idol of durand damage based on number of attacks suffered
-Champions with randuin's or thornmail - passives do not trigger on dodges
The Champ
-Jax
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
id take the flat armor anyday since its consistent and after playing with it a while you know your limitations. With dodge its just a crapshoot every game...if your a professional gambler then go for it but im pretty sure ive never dodged an attack in my life
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I remember you used to play nidalee with us Brees, so I'm like 99.99% sure that you're lying about never dodging an attack. Dodge is cheesy, but there's definitely value to dodging and triggering nimbleness or having the ability to randomly screw over a towerdive.
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On August 02 2011 02:25 Mogwai wrote:
dodge vs armor
This is precisely why I always say that you should not get dodge seals as some of your first runes - they definitely are niche runes.
But now I'm just thinking about ranged AD + support mirror lanes. That's a pretty huge niche currently (though I don't like that lane). Even more specific: ranged AD + healer mirrors. With dodge + nimbleness (+ some crit but you get 2% anyways), you have a chance to luckily turn things heavily in your favor.
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Skills>luck any day.
The dodge you get from both the mastery and runes are really minimal. Just like the chance of landing a crit on an enemy. Bot lane is about skill, not luck. Please don't say it like that.
Here's the thing about 9 defensive vs 9 utility. 9 utility gives you a longer red buff, which matters A LOT beyond the first few minutes of the game because you have a longer red buff to give you tons of true dmg per hit, and the ability to kite. 9 defensive at max gives you like 8% dodge I think, and the 10% ms. Helps a bit, but imo not worth it. Getting guranteed 13 armor reduces armor pen, makes people who took all dmg or partial armor pen to deal less dmg to you.
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The thing is tho, esp for bot n top lane, a lot of the dps done are via autoattacks. The ability to completely avoid attacks is huge. Not to mention u can reduce minion dps with dodge too.
Armor is definitely more useful in most cases but dodge is still worth it in some lanes imo
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On August 02 2011 02:54 spinesheath wrote:This is precisely why I always say that you should not get dodge seals as some of your first runes - they definitely are niche runes. But now I'm just thinking about ranged AD + support mirror lanes. That's a pretty huge niche currently (though I don't like that lane). Even more specific: ranged AD + healer mirrors. With dodge + nimbleness (+ some crit but you get 2% anyways), you have a chance to luckily turn things heavily in your favor.
yea, sorry but this is actually one of the worst places to run dodge IMHO. Dodge is on it's best on tanky characters who will eat lots of incidental hits anyway so that they can trigger nimbleness to stick to carries better.
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On August 02 2011 03:07 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 02:54 spinesheath wrote:On August 02 2011 02:25 Mogwai wrote:
dodge vs armor This is precisely why I always say that you should not get dodge seals as some of your first runes - they definitely are niche runes. But now I'm just thinking about ranged AD + support mirror lanes. That's a pretty huge niche currently (though I don't like that lane). Even more specific: ranged AD + healer mirrors. With dodge + nimbleness (+ some crit but you get 2% anyways), you have a chance to luckily turn things heavily in your favor. yea, sorry but this is actually one of the worst places to run dodge IMHO. Dodge is on it's best on tanky characters who will eat lots of incidental hits anyway so that they can trigger nimbleness to stick to carries better.
I think in some very specific matchups, dodge can be really good - but in general, I agree with you. I don't think people should seriously consider dodge seals for bottom lane unless the enemy jungler AND AD carry are affected by them strongly.
Dodge boots, though? Run that shit. 850g for Boots2, 25 armor and 12% dodge is amazing if you're running against a physical-heavy team.
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yea, ninja tabi are stupid efficient.
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On August 02 2011 02:32 Flakes wrote:Armor definitely more reliable in more situations than dodge but I really like nimbleness/wtfbbqdodgehax though. Here's a post I made in the rune thread for those considering dodge: Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 21:33 Flakes wrote:
I run dodge yellows on nearly everyone (I generally run armor yellows on junglers), but for those who rune on a per-champion basis:
Champions with innate dodge (can therefore stack dodge as a reliable source of damage mitigation):
-Sivir - while moving
-Udyr - after switching stances
-Nidalee - while in cougar form
Champions who benefit from avoiding attacks:
-Miss Fortune - loses speed passive after being struck
-Teemo - loses speed passive after being struck
-Pantheon - loses shield passive after being struck (better used for tower hits)
-Malphite - passive shield regeneration time resets after being struck
-Garen - loses health regeneration passive after being struck
-Stealth champions - being struck delays stealth fade time
-Champions with mobility boots - being struck puts you into combat, lowering your speed
-Champions with Nimbleness mastery - the 2% from evasion is not enough to reliably proc
Champions who want to be hit (should not take dodge):
-Rammus - returns damage when hit during defensive ball curl
-Amumu - tantrum cooldown shortened when hit
-Galio - bulwark heal and idol of durand damage based on number of attacks suffered
-Champions with randuin's or thornmail - passives do not trigger on dodges
The Champ
-Jax
I would claim that dodge is very, very good on rammus because you get such stupid amounts of armour because of ball curl that dodge becomes much better. The damage return on DBC is mostly used for jungling anyways.
Also, I don't see why everyone compares dodge to armour seals. Dodge seals are so insanely good lategame when you can't stack more than like 150-200 armour anyway because of carries with LW raping you regardless, while dodge is totally unaffected. Dodge+Randuins are 2 of the only sponges against farmed ranged carries. If you are not afraid of early game (hi udyr) dodge seals are definitely good.
Even if armour is better early, on 99% of bruisers you will be getting armour at some point and it makes dodge very late game. Also if you expect to get tabi giving armour AND dodge making dodge even better.
On August 01 2011 10:51 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:oh damn shitcombo hit 1900 EXACTLY /puke if you think you should be higher and you're not 
On the contrary, I'm 1932 and you were 1700 when I was pre-30 theorycrafting on TL about attack speed taric builds. *trollface*.
Then again I had to start playing a couple of OP champs Irelia and now Lee sin to stay up here since everyone started banning my jungle udyr.  ((
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On August 02 2011 02:58 0123456789 wrote:
Skills>luck any day.
The dodge you get from both the mastery and runes are really minimal. Just like the chance of landing a crit on an enemy. Bot lane is about skill, not luck. Please don't say it like that.
Here's the thing about 9 defensive vs 9 utility. 9 utility gives you a longer red buff, which matters A LOT beyond the first few minutes of the game because you have a longer red buff to give you tons of true dmg per hit, and the ability to kite. 9 defensive at max gives you like 8% dodge I think, and the 10% ms. Helps a bit, but imo not worth it. Getting guranteed 13 armor reduces armor pen, makes people who took all dmg or partial armor pen to deal less dmg to you.
9 defense also gives you 6 armor 2 mres (in the proposed bot lane setup).
15% longer buff duration only matters if you do something with it during the last ~30 seconds you have that buff. That's also KINDA luck based. You usually don't take red buff, wait 3 minutes and then go like: Hey I am using my extended buff duration now, let's pressure some objective! You take it and use it right away. And since you force engagements that way, and engagements tend to have unclear results, you can't really predict anymore what is going to happen in 3 minutes.
I typically ran 21/9/0 with SoS lately. This is definitely the most reliable way to use those 9 mastery points, providing you with clearly predictable advantages.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On August 02 2011 02:49 Mogwai wrote:
I remember you used to play nidalee with us Brees, so I'm like 99.99% sure that you're lying about never dodging an attack. Dodge is cheesy, but there's definitely value to dodging and triggering nimbleness or having the ability to randomly screw over a towerdive.
who needs cougar form when heal and spear all day every day with gay push strat huehuehuehue
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On August 02 2011 03:36 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 02:49 Mogwai wrote:
I remember you used to play nidalee with us Brees, so I'm like 99.99% sure that you're lying about never dodging an attack. Dodge is cheesy, but there's definitely value to dodging and triggering nimbleness or having the ability to randomly screw over a towerdive. who needs cougar form when heal and spear all day every day with gay push strat huehuehuehue
jajajaja
I'm bringing that strat back btw. Karma and Sona so strong in it, I feel like it's impossible to lose with Karma, Nid, WW, Taric, Sona.
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Taric/Sona actually sounds like a lane that can legit kill people, I am intrigued.
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well, most of the time I run it we need to concede the soraka pick to the opposing team to let ourselves get the supports we want so they can't really kill vs. soraka, but they can heal each other awful well and get the last hits they need to get soul shroud and aegis for the 15 minute rapepush.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
yea it still works I forced a team to do it in ranked once and even with 3 people not understanding it at all we still won.
team was something like ap janna mid(me), soraka/cait, nid top, and ww jungle.
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Question. how do you beat an ali/blitz lane as ashe/soraka. Tons of cc and avoid grab is really hard cause they just run up to you in the creep wave and you cant stay to battle them because you die during the cc chain and you cant run because then your out in the open and praying for a missed grab.
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On August 02 2011 03:07 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 02:54 spinesheath wrote:On August 02 2011 02:25 Mogwai wrote:
dodge vs armor This is precisely why I always say that you should not get dodge seals as some of your first runes - they definitely are niche runes. But now I'm just thinking about ranged AD + support mirror lanes. That's a pretty huge niche currently (though I don't like that lane). Even more specific: ranged AD + healer mirrors. With dodge + nimbleness (+ some crit but you get 2% anyways), you have a chance to luckily turn things heavily in your favor. yea, sorry but this is actually one of the worst places to run dodge IMHO. Dodge is on it's best on tanky characters who will eat lots of incidental hits anyway so that they can trigger nimbleness to stick to carries better.
There's the merit of running dodge on squishies in that if you're a squishy ashe who gets 3-shot by Tryndamere, 13 armor isn't going to help but a lucky dodge might save you.
Also, nimbleness is great. But in just pure maths and over time, armor should be better
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EPT
