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I changed the episode description to show that we're not talking about true Bravery. =)
hahaha. No, I actually understand the frustration of watching people not directly involved with your favorite sub-community taking an idea and running with it/bastardizing it/making it their own without paying proper homage or even knowing its origin. But that's like all memes in general, sort of. And that's sort of the sign of a healthy gaming community at large, though, isn't it? Imitation is the highest form of flattery, and so on and so forth. However, in this age of free-flowing thoughts and ideas, it's still very important to give credit where credit is DUE, and it's definitely due to TL for starting the whole thing, so I will rectify that next week. But you guys should be proud for coming up with the seed of a whole new movement and all the variants that have sprouted up thereafter, too.
@AmishNinja: A difference between you and me is that you (and day9) appear to have prescriptivist leanings, whereas my leanings tend to be in a more descriptivist direction. (I'm a fan of the Language Log, which has a lot (a loooot) to say about linguistic peeving hahaha).
Thanks for letting me know about the gripe against metagame, though, because clearly I am not informed and hadn't heard of the gripe yet. Sadly, I perceive that it may be difficult to convince everybody to drop the term when they actually mean "what happens when players understand mechanics and begin to counter strategies on a more abstract level", because... I agree with the linguists that say a word means what a lot of people use it to mean; that say a word's meaning has the capacity to change over time. Of course this doesn't mean that if I say "I want the word "pineapple" to mean "stomachache" now" that suddenly that word will actually mean "pain in my stomach," but if it turns into some kind of inside joke among my friends and we all start using the word that way, one can make the argument that the word has become useful in conveying the message. I think in general it's because I'm not married to the letters of the word itself, but rather the meaning that saying the word conveys--what it represents for a large portion of the community using it--what they see in their minds when they hear it used (albeit incorrectly by original standards).
DISCLAIMER: I don't actually have a degree in linguistics, so I can't claim competency in the subject, but I hear a lot of about linguistics from my dear friends who are getting their PhDs in it. So I reserve the right to have represented any of this slightly incorrectly. =( ANYWAY......
tl:dr: I AM SORRY YOU GUYS D:
Edit: from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming
Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.
In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions.
(emphasis mine)
There is a special set of moves in chess which allows a player to win in four moves. Competitor A has been watching Competitor B play chess, and the past five games in a row Competitor B has attempted to use this four-move win. When Competitor A sits down to play against Competitor B, Competitor A will be metagaming if he/she plays in a way that will easily thwart the four-move checkmate before Competitor B makes it obvious that this is what he/she is doing.
So if that is metagaming, how about this example (WARNING I SUCK AT LOL but my other team members and certainly our illustrious guests do not suck at LoL, so don't judge the podcast too harshly based on me):
- My playgroup understands that everybody always goes 1 top, 1 mid, 2 bot, and 1 jungler. Before we even queue for a game, someone in my group decides that they're going to pick a counter-jungler to kill the jungler of the other team that we are assuming they will have, to stop it from getting buffs and experience. We are using information from outside the current actual game to influence our ingame decisions.
Also, I assume that people talking about popular strategies and how to counter them before the game even starts (or at least be prepared to face them / counter them before the game starts, like fearing a 6pool on Steppes of War) is part of "the game universe outside of the game itself" right?
To make it so that I better understand (I'm asking honestly, not just trolling), can you give me an example of something that's NOT "metagame" but everybody calls "metagaming" ? Or perhaps I should just STFU and go watch Day9 talking about it. Maybe that would be the best for everyone, most of all myself. lol
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O_O
No need to get upset...
I, for one, don't mind that much (as long as you will mention it at a later date)
Anyways, it's a really great show, and I really love listening to it!
I think this is the BEST LoL-related podcast on the web, by far.
Good job, and keep up the good work :D
By the way, can you get people like bigfatjiji and HSGG etc. on CLG to talk about their tournament experiences? I would also really love it if you can start a sort of "learn to play better tips" section too :D
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Haha, thank you Abenson. I'm glad you're around. I'm not actually upset, but I am very excitable in general. I think this is really funny to talk about, but on 2nd reading, it's hard to see that I'm just having fun in plain old text. I will revise my post so that it is not too manic. I also haven't been sleeping X_X My forum personality needs some careful grooming, lol.
And thank you for the suggestions. <3 TL.
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Lol I'm gonna listen to a few episodes, seems pretty cool so far.
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On January 20 2011 11:57 judytuna wrote:@AmishNinja: A difference between you and me is that you (and day9) appear to have prescriptivist leanings, whereas my leanings tend to be in a more descriptivist direction. (I'm a fan of the Language Log, which has a lot (a loooot) to say about linguistic peeving hahaha).
Thanks for the response.
I wondered if the descriptivist point of view would come up over this. It seems to be a popular topic these days. Anyway, while I'm usually the kind of guy who is annoyed by grammatical errors, I definitely understand the idea that a word's meaning can change over time. My problem with these cases, and maybe on some level I'm being a little contradictory, is that it's based on a mistake that gets propagated very quickly (internet, heyoooo) and causes confusion for those who use that kind of terminology in its original form.
I mean, sure, I *get* what the podcasters mean when they say certain things even if the words are "misused", but I am sometimes wary of the slippery slope involved with being descriptivist; How much of it is legitimate acceptance of the alteration of the meaning of words and how much is willful ignorance? I guess my thought overall is: if it's a gradual change in language over time, it seems more natural as opposed to an abrupt change. There are plenty of cases of gradual language changes occurring in English over past centuries and even decades.
Sorry for excessive use of big words. I promise I didn't break out the thesaurus.
TL;DR: WORDS BAD, HULK SMASH or something
On January 20 2011 11:57 judytuna wrote:
So if that is metagaming, how about this example (WARNING I SUCK AT LOL but my other team members and certainly our illustrious guests do not suck at LoL, so don't judge the podcast too harshly based on me):
- My playgroup understands that everybody always goes 1 top, 1 mid, 2 bot, and 1 jungler. Before we even queue for a game, someone in my group decides that they're going to pick a counter-jungler to kill the jungler of the other team that we are assuming they will have, to stop it from getting buffs and experience. We are using information from outside the current actual game to influence our ingame decisions.
Yeah, that's a good example of a metagame decision in response to the most common LoL strategy. Another good one would be more personal, like "I know TreeEskimo always does X with Y character, so I'm gonna do Z in anticipation of this". Pretty straightforward.
On January 20 2011 11:57 judytuna wrote:
Also, I assume that people talking about popular strategies and how to counter them before the game even starts (or at least be prepared to face them / counter them before the game starts, like fearing a 6pool on Steppes of War) is part of "the game universe outside of the game itself" right?
Yeah, somewhat although it's still part of the game; 6 pooling is just another move in the repertoire of an sc gamer so it's good to know of the possibility. Since you don't know the habit of a random ladder player, it's hard to apply 'metagame' to this situation. But since it's steppes I suppose you could say, "well since 80% of all zergs 6 pool on steppes of war I'm gonna be ready for it without even having scouted to confirm" and that would be metagaming. Looks like that's what you were going for.
On January 20 2011 11:57 judytuna wrote:
To make it so that I better understand (I'm asking honestly, not just trolling), can you give me an example of something that's NOT "metagame" but everybody calls "metagaming" ? Or perhaps I should just STFU and go watch Day9 talking about it. Maybe that would be the best for everyone, most of all myself. lol
ALL PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH ME ARE TROLLING. GRRRR.
nah it's cool  uhhhh let's see, an example... I might misquote someone here or take words out of context so if I do that then I apologize for being a big jerk, but I think in the podcast somebody said something to the effect of, "how do you think blitzcrank is in the current metagame? do you think he stacks up?" and started to talk about his merits early game, mid game, late game, etc - that's not metagame. that's all within the scope of the game itself.
honestly that's the big one I see/hear the most, are questions/statements about "how viable champion X is in the current metagame".
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Even though it has nothing to do with LoL, I'm glad to see a prescriptive Vs descriptive debate on the forums. Was one of my favourite topics in undergrad, and is great fun for discussing on the internet.
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Will the name of this podcast change if they lower surrender times?
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Hey everyone the Stream is about to start go here.
http://www.own3d.tv/live/2317
Listen to the stream live and watch Judy set up lol.
Also ask Roku questions during the show.
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So I heard Loco is going to be interviewed...
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@dnastyx yes, we're gonna have him on soon. I'll edit this post as soon as I can when I know the date.
@0123456789 .... we probably won't change the name of the podcast, but we will QQ a lot. lol
Talking to Roku has been super-fun. TYVM for posting Xemnes_BW <3 <3
Edited to add: you can see today's shenanigans on own3d.tv here. I fail pretty hard, we all troll jamal (especially roku), and roku receives multiple marriage proposals. It's pretty silly right now, but we're still getting used to the whole live streaming thing. Forgive us x_X hahah.
Edited again to add: the audio episode is up at http://25minstosurrender.podomatic.com/entry/2011-01-26T07_29_12-08_00
and on iTunes already, too. =D
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Just watched the episode on own3d, good job. Roku was a decent guest.
Can't wait to hear locodoco on the show, should be fun if he' actually willing to share his thoughts.. he seems like a pretty soft spoken/quiet guy.
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Senx, do you have any questions for him in particular? =)
Also... I finally went to our other friends' house to get the dandinh episode onto my computer today. That's the only episode that was recorded without me, so it was on someone else's computer that we didn't have access to for a while. We'll release it as soon as I clean up the audio (or try to, at least).
Thanks for commenting, and give us feedback =)
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When are you guys going to get some CLG members. I'm curious about how they started up.
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Can we get a TL episode? :D
Title: TeamLiquid - Founders of all things brave
Pretty please? :D
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Anything for you Abenson!!! When do you want me to set it up? LOL
We can have a big lovefest Skype conference call and have TL talk about what makes it the best LoL community. Then we can stream some inhouse games after the show =D
@ATeddyBear: we shall work on it. I'll keep this thread updated about guests!!
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talk to caller, guitarasaurus and redtooth about bravery
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talk to me and 5hit combo about being dead and rage
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How are the two of you going to talk, seeing as how your dead? Or is it one of those ghost things where you can intercept the real world by communicating over radio waves?
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we will communicate via puppetry
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EPT
