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So recently I have been going back to reviewing items that almost nobody gets. Items like wits end, tiamat, and all those other weird and strange items.
I actually tried to incorporate some of these items, namingly wits end, into builds for certain champions and came up with some interesting results. Getting wits end on AD eve, for example, actually works wonders when taking down champions like kogmaw because you attack insanely fast so when they get out of stun, they do not have the mana to fight back.
Also, wit's end seems to be not effective against mage type champions, which is what it looks like it is for at first, but it is extremely effective against mana hungry damage dealers, such as kogmaw, jax, or even pantheon if he does not get a manamune. It becomes increasingly less effective the more mana items someone gets because you simply cannot burn a significant amount. Also, the damage from the mana burn is actually quite high (42 damage a hit not including magic resistance) and the item is relatively cheap for such damage output. Put that together with the attack speed it gives and you do not really need other attack speed items to make it viable provided you have an attack speed boosting skill like eve or tristana.
What are your views/builds that you use, or would hypothetically use these items for?
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mathematically, black cleaver does as much damage over 5 hits as infinity edge does and it's like 6000 gold cheaper, but you rarely see people buy it. i think a big part of it is the fact that crits are a lot scarier than steadily increasing damage and raising your crit chance is relatively easy once you have an IE.
i've been hypothesizing that black cleaver + starks is a stronger 2-item combo than IE/LW right now because of the change in LW recipe, but i haven't played enough ranged carries to confirm it yet.
cleaver seems especially effective on twitch because of the AOE effect of his ult... you land like 4 hits with that thing and you've reduced the armor of the opposing team by over 200... that's got to be fucking HUGE in a teamfight. and now with baron getting debuffed by things that are not disables, i don't see why cleaver hasn't seen a rise in popularity (unless he's still not affected by armor debuff)
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The problem with wit's end is mana is such a cheap stat to get =(
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I think IE is pretty much just better than Black Cleaver. IE's passive is on average the same as a 30% DPS increase that makes other crit items more effective ... I don't think Cleaver gives as much of a damage increase except after a lot of attacks or against low-armor targets (or in the Twitch ult example perhaps, or if you're not autoattacking ... but then Bloodthirster is probably better than either), though I admit I've not run the math and I'm not going to do so right now because it's 4 am. Cleaver is admittedly much cheaper though and does play nice with Stark's or Sword of the Divine.
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I don't think Wit's End is terrible. Its biggest problem before was probably that the old Last Whisper was obviously the best aspd item in the game for most autoattack champs in most situations and +40% aspd is all you usually needed.
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I think tristrana is high mana depending champion and not expect a high mana pool. Who knows, maybe in teamfight she will run oom and won't jump to safety.
I would try a hexdrinker + wit's end + high AD item (IE/BC) against caster teams. If you add Banshee Veil and potions to it, you reach about 5-6k effective magic hp, with slight dps decrease.
Malady + Bloodrazors would work on teemo.
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Let's add to the list:
Bilgewater Cutlass: I don't think it's cost-effective as a standalone item, only get it when working towards a Gunblade. I rarely see it. The low range on the active makes it only viable for champions with a jump and no slow imo.
Executioner's Calling: The passive doesn't even stack, or does it? Niche item for normal games if you didn't pack enough Ignites against a high regen team imo. In general just bad?
Stinger: Such an awesome item. 10% CDR for 90 gold or something like that. It's a shame it only builds into Nashor's. Imo highly underused.
Warden's Mail: Another of these weak items you only get to build them into something. I can't think of any situation where I would want to get it before HoG.
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Tiamat is actually a very viable item in theory for champs that have trouble farming and with shots that deal on hit effects. Best 2 contenders would be gangplank and ezreal. It would also give these two champs the ability to push really fast as apposed to just average speed.
Would need testing, but would gangplank get multiple bonus gold from his shot killing multiple minions due to tiamat?
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Er, even if Wit's End didn't burn mana and was just a +42 damage, it'd be a ridiculously cost-efficient item. The mana burn is just a bonus.
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Tiamat is also used from time to time on MF.
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On January 01 2011 18:27 spinesheath wrote:
Warden's Mail: Another of these weak items you only get to build them into something. I can't think of any situation where I would want to get it before HoG.
Warden's has a very cheap and very big armor increase iirc, i never get it before HoG too, but it's not a weak item at all.
EDIT: i was wrong
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On January 01 2011 17:46 gtrsrs wrote:
mathematically, black cleaver does as much damage over 5 hits as infinity edge does and it's like 6000 gold cheaper, but you rarely see people buy it. i think a big part of it is the fact that crits are a lot scarier than steadily increasing damage and raising your crit chance is relatively easy once you have an IE.
i've been hypothesizing that black cleaver + starks is a stronger 2-item combo than IE/LW right now because of the change in LW recipe, but i haven't played enough ranged carries to confirm it yet.
cleaver seems especially effective on twitch because of the AOE effect of his ult... you land like 4 hits with that thing and you've reduced the armor of the opposing team by over 200... that's got to be fucking HUGE in a teamfight. and now with baron getting debuffed by things that are not disables, i don't see why cleaver hasn't seen a rise in popularity (unless he's still not affected by armor debuff)
I've seen a couple cleavers these holidays, I think it was on jungling shacos going wriggles/gb/cleaver.
GB/cleaver doesn't seem like too bad of a combo since cleaver has great sync with AS and since you won't applying full stacks on someone unless you are bursting them.
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The only issue I can see from wit's end is that the 42 damage does not scale with other items that add pure damage. The burn damage cannot have a critical hit, but it does do magic damage so it might theoretically do a little bit more than 42 raw damage if they have high armor.
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On January 01 2011 20:27 dignity wrote:
Tiamat is actually a very viable item in theory for champs that have trouble farming and with shots that deal on hit effects. Best 2 contenders would be gangplank and ezreal. It would also give these two champs the ability to push really fast as apposed to just average speed.
it's really not. the AOE of tiamat is pretty small and while it gives extremely cost-effective stats, it also gives a lot of "bad" stats such as HP regen and mana regen, which don't really apply in a teamfight. the thing that a lot of beginning players think is that it's worth the 2000 gold on a champ that doesn't farm well (poppy, alistar, those kind of champs) because you'll make up the difference quickly. there are two flaws with this: 1. you push the lane with tiamat. as shitcombo will tell you, don't push an open lane unless you mean to take a tower. pushing leaves you in the open for a gank. 2. last-hitting is a more effective way of farming anyways. you'll miss last hits with tiamat because of its spread-out damage which you can't toggle off when creeps are getting low. if you want an item that helps you melt creep waves and actually has a place in this game, get SUNFIRE cape. it's 500 gold more and gives you a fuckton of survivability on top of its nifty passive
moreover i just tested your double parrley bonus theory and it does not hold true either. in fact, if there are two creeps at low health next to each other and you parrley one but it dies before your projectile reaches it, BUT you kill the second creep with the tiamat splash, you will not receive ANY bonus parrley gold.
tiamat is joke item, don't build it on MF either please.
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you don't push a wave unless you know what you're doing and have a reason to*
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Tiamat works pretty well on Garen I hear.
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On January 02 2011 05:06 DarthThienAn wrote:
Tiamat works pretty well on Garen I hear.
Soo Tiamat is stronger on Melee champs, that's true, but... uh, is Tiamat Garen the new troll champ? Gotta love that Mana Regen too.
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On January 02 2011 02:50 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2011 20:27 dignity wrote:
Tiamat is actually a very viable item in theory for champs that have trouble farming and with shots that deal on hit effects. Best 2 contenders would be gangplank and ezreal. It would also give these two champs the ability to push really fast as apposed to just average speed. it's really not. the AOE of tiamat is pretty small and while it gives extremely cost-effective stats, it also gives a lot of "bad" stats such as HP regen and mana regen, which don't really apply in a teamfight. the thing that a lot of beginning players think is that it's worth the 2000 gold on a champ that doesn't farm well (poppy, alistar, those kind of champs) because you'll make up the difference quickly. there are two flaws with this: 1. you push the lane with tiamat. as shitcombo will tell you, don't push an open lane unless you mean to take a tower. pushing leaves you in the open for a gank. 2. last-hitting is a more effective way of farming anyways. you'll miss last hits with tiamat because of its spread-out damage which you can't toggle off when creeps are getting low. if you want an item that helps you melt creep waves and actually has a place in this game, get SUNFIRE cape. it's 500 gold more and gives you a fuckton of survivability on top of its nifty passive moreover i just tested your double parrley bonus theory and it does not hold true either. in fact, if there are two creeps at low health next to each other and you parrley one but it dies before your projectile reaches it, BUT you kill the second creep with the tiamat splash, you will not receive ANY bonus parrley gold. tiamat is joke item, don't build it on MF either please.
Five Tiamat Ezreal begs to differ. Nothing beats the skill of winding your shot past a high-health enemy to double kill off the lower health one.
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Wit's End can win games. Super-tanky characters with low mana pools who are useless when oom (Alistar, Nunu, Rammus for example) can be easier to drain out of their mana pools (particularly if more than one person on your team gets a Wit's End, such as Xin Zhao + 1 ranged carry) than harassed / killed, depending on the damage output of your team. It's certainly a very rare situation, but a win's a win.
The 40% attack speed + 30 MRes on the item are also moderately desirable stats for its cost (2150g) ever since the Last Whisper change, but ideally you're only getting it when the mana drain hurts the enemy team significantly.
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I think tiamat is a good item for champs that can backdoor or simply push lanes without the fear of not being able to get away. Yi, shaco, and eve are the ones that come to mind. It might not be worth the gold for the stats but the extra speed you get pushing the lane definitely makes the opposing team have to respond quickly. I can't speak for high ELO games but at low ELO and pub stomping this always seems to have a great impact on a game.
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Yi explodes a creep wave quickly enough just from Alpha Strike and auto-attack, you don't need a TIamat.
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EPT
