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So recently I have been going back to reviewing items that almost nobody gets. Items like wits end, tiamat, and all those other weird and strange items.
I actually tried to incorporate some of these items, namingly wits end, into builds for certain champions and came up with some interesting results. Getting wits end on AD eve, for example, actually works wonders when taking down champions like kogmaw because you attack insanely fast so when they get out of stun, they do not have the mana to fight back.
Also, wit's end seems to be not effective against mage type champions, which is what it looks like it is for at first, but it is extremely effective against mana hungry damage dealers, such as kogmaw, jax, or even pantheon if he does not get a manamune. It becomes increasingly less effective the more mana items someone gets because you simply cannot burn a significant amount. Also, the damage from the mana burn is actually quite high (42 damage a hit not including magic resistance) and the item is relatively cheap for such damage output. Put that together with the attack speed it gives and you do not really need other attack speed items to make it viable provided you have an attack speed boosting skill like eve or tristana.
What are your views/builds that you use, or would hypothetically use these items for?
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mathematically, black cleaver does as much damage over 5 hits as infinity edge does and it's like 6000 gold cheaper, but you rarely see people buy it. i think a big part of it is the fact that crits are a lot scarier than steadily increasing damage and raising your crit chance is relatively easy once you have an IE.
i've been hypothesizing that black cleaver + starks is a stronger 2-item combo than IE/LW right now because of the change in LW recipe, but i haven't played enough ranged carries to confirm it yet.
cleaver seems especially effective on twitch because of the AOE effect of his ult... you land like 4 hits with that thing and you've reduced the armor of the opposing team by over 200... that's got to be fucking HUGE in a teamfight. and now with baron getting debuffed by things that are not disables, i don't see why cleaver hasn't seen a rise in popularity (unless he's still not affected by armor debuff)
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The problem with wit's end is mana is such a cheap stat to get =(
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I think IE is pretty much just better than Black Cleaver. IE's passive is on average the same as a 30% DPS increase that makes other crit items more effective ... I don't think Cleaver gives as much of a damage increase except after a lot of attacks or against low-armor targets (or in the Twitch ult example perhaps, or if you're not autoattacking ... but then Bloodthirster is probably better than either), though I admit I've not run the math and I'm not going to do so right now because it's 4 am. Cleaver is admittedly much cheaper though and does play nice with Stark's or Sword of the Divine.
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I don't think Wit's End is terrible. Its biggest problem before was probably that the old Last Whisper was obviously the best aspd item in the game for most autoattack champs in most situations and +40% aspd is all you usually needed.
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I think tristrana is high mana depending champion and not expect a high mana pool. Who knows, maybe in teamfight she will run oom and won't jump to safety.
I would try a hexdrinker + wit's end + high AD item (IE/BC) against caster teams. If you add Banshee Veil and potions to it, you reach about 5-6k effective magic hp, with slight dps decrease.
Malady + Bloodrazors would work on teemo.
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Let's add to the list:
Bilgewater Cutlass: I don't think it's cost-effective as a standalone item, only get it when working towards a Gunblade. I rarely see it. The low range on the active makes it only viable for champions with a jump and no slow imo.
Executioner's Calling: The passive doesn't even stack, or does it? Niche item for normal games if you didn't pack enough Ignites against a high regen team imo. In general just bad?
Stinger: Such an awesome item. 10% CDR for 90 gold or something like that. It's a shame it only builds into Nashor's. Imo highly underused.
Warden's Mail: Another of these weak items you only get to build them into something. I can't think of any situation where I would want to get it before HoG.
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Tiamat is actually a very viable item in theory for champs that have trouble farming and with shots that deal on hit effects. Best 2 contenders would be gangplank and ezreal. It would also give these two champs the ability to push really fast as apposed to just average speed.
Would need testing, but would gangplank get multiple bonus gold from his shot killing multiple minions due to tiamat?
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Er, even if Wit's End didn't burn mana and was just a +42 damage, it'd be a ridiculously cost-efficient item. The mana burn is just a bonus.
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Tiamat is also used from time to time on MF.
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On January 01 2011 18:27 spinesheath wrote:
Warden's Mail: Another of these weak items you only get to build them into something. I can't think of any situation where I would want to get it before HoG.
Warden's has a very cheap and very big armor increase iirc, i never get it before HoG too, but it's not a weak item at all.
EDIT: i was wrong
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On January 01 2011 17:46 gtrsrs wrote:
mathematically, black cleaver does as much damage over 5 hits as infinity edge does and it's like 6000 gold cheaper, but you rarely see people buy it. i think a big part of it is the fact that crits are a lot scarier than steadily increasing damage and raising your crit chance is relatively easy once you have an IE.
i've been hypothesizing that black cleaver + starks is a stronger 2-item combo than IE/LW right now because of the change in LW recipe, but i haven't played enough ranged carries to confirm it yet.
cleaver seems especially effective on twitch because of the AOE effect of his ult... you land like 4 hits with that thing and you've reduced the armor of the opposing team by over 200... that's got to be fucking HUGE in a teamfight. and now with baron getting debuffed by things that are not disables, i don't see why cleaver hasn't seen a rise in popularity (unless he's still not affected by armor debuff)
I've seen a couple cleavers these holidays, I think it was on jungling shacos going wriggles/gb/cleaver.
GB/cleaver doesn't seem like too bad of a combo since cleaver has great sync with AS and since you won't applying full stacks on someone unless you are bursting them.
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The only issue I can see from wit's end is that the 42 damage does not scale with other items that add pure damage. The burn damage cannot have a critical hit, but it does do magic damage so it might theoretically do a little bit more than 42 raw damage if they have high armor.
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On January 01 2011 20:27 dignity wrote:
Tiamat is actually a very viable item in theory for champs that have trouble farming and with shots that deal on hit effects. Best 2 contenders would be gangplank and ezreal. It would also give these two champs the ability to push really fast as apposed to just average speed.
it's really not. the AOE of tiamat is pretty small and while it gives extremely cost-effective stats, it also gives a lot of "bad" stats such as HP regen and mana regen, which don't really apply in a teamfight. the thing that a lot of beginning players think is that it's worth the 2000 gold on a champ that doesn't farm well (poppy, alistar, those kind of champs) because you'll make up the difference quickly. there are two flaws with this: 1. you push the lane with tiamat. as shitcombo will tell you, don't push an open lane unless you mean to take a tower. pushing leaves you in the open for a gank. 2. last-hitting is a more effective way of farming anyways. you'll miss last hits with tiamat because of its spread-out damage which you can't toggle off when creeps are getting low. if you want an item that helps you melt creep waves and actually has a place in this game, get SUNFIRE cape. it's 500 gold more and gives you a fuckton of survivability on top of its nifty passive
moreover i just tested your double parrley bonus theory and it does not hold true either. in fact, if there are two creeps at low health next to each other and you parrley one but it dies before your projectile reaches it, BUT you kill the second creep with the tiamat splash, you will not receive ANY bonus parrley gold.
tiamat is joke item, don't build it on MF either please.
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you don't push a wave unless you know what you're doing and have a reason to*
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Tiamat works pretty well on Garen I hear.
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On January 02 2011 05:06 DarthThienAn wrote:
Tiamat works pretty well on Garen I hear.
Soo Tiamat is stronger on Melee champs, that's true, but... uh, is Tiamat Garen the new troll champ? Gotta love that Mana Regen too.
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On January 02 2011 02:50 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2011 20:27 dignity wrote:
Tiamat is actually a very viable item in theory for champs that have trouble farming and with shots that deal on hit effects. Best 2 contenders would be gangplank and ezreal. It would also give these two champs the ability to push really fast as apposed to just average speed. it's really not. the AOE of tiamat is pretty small and while it gives extremely cost-effective stats, it also gives a lot of "bad" stats such as HP regen and mana regen, which don't really apply in a teamfight. the thing that a lot of beginning players think is that it's worth the 2000 gold on a champ that doesn't farm well (poppy, alistar, those kind of champs) because you'll make up the difference quickly. there are two flaws with this: 1. you push the lane with tiamat. as shitcombo will tell you, don't push an open lane unless you mean to take a tower. pushing leaves you in the open for a gank. 2. last-hitting is a more effective way of farming anyways. you'll miss last hits with tiamat because of its spread-out damage which you can't toggle off when creeps are getting low. if you want an item that helps you melt creep waves and actually has a place in this game, get SUNFIRE cape. it's 500 gold more and gives you a fuckton of survivability on top of its nifty passive moreover i just tested your double parrley bonus theory and it does not hold true either. in fact, if there are two creeps at low health next to each other and you parrley one but it dies before your projectile reaches it, BUT you kill the second creep with the tiamat splash, you will not receive ANY bonus parrley gold. tiamat is joke item, don't build it on MF either please.
Five Tiamat Ezreal begs to differ. Nothing beats the skill of winding your shot past a high-health enemy to double kill off the lower health one.
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Wit's End can win games. Super-tanky characters with low mana pools who are useless when oom (Alistar, Nunu, Rammus for example) can be easier to drain out of their mana pools (particularly if more than one person on your team gets a Wit's End, such as Xin Zhao + 1 ranged carry) than harassed / killed, depending on the damage output of your team. It's certainly a very rare situation, but a win's a win.
The 40% attack speed + 30 MRes on the item are also moderately desirable stats for its cost (2150g) ever since the Last Whisper change, but ideally you're only getting it when the mana drain hurts the enemy team significantly.
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I think tiamat is a good item for champs that can backdoor or simply push lanes without the fear of not being able to get away. Yi, shaco, and eve are the ones that come to mind. It might not be worth the gold for the stats but the extra speed you get pushing the lane definitely makes the opposing team have to respond quickly. I can't speak for high ELO games but at low ELO and pub stomping this always seems to have a great impact on a game.
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Yi explodes a creep wave quickly enough just from Alpha Strike and auto-attack, you don't need a TIamat.
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fuck you guys tiamat is going to be the new fotm
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On January 02 2011 05:09 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2011 05:06 DarthThienAn wrote:
Tiamat works pretty well on Garen I hear. Soo Tiamat is stronger on Melee champs, that's true, but... uh, is Tiamat Garen the new troll champ? Gotta love that Mana Regen too.
Ask Caller about it 8)
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On January 03 2011 23:21 Zato-1 wrote:
Wit's End can win games. Super-tanky characters with low mana pools who are useless when oom (Alistar, Nunu, Rammus for example) can be easier to drain out of their mana pools (particularly if more than one person on your team gets a Wit's End, such as Xin Zhao + 1 ranged carry) than harassed / killed, depending on the damage output of your team. It's certainly a very rare situation, but a win's a win.
The 40% attack speed + 30 MRes on the item are also moderately desirable stats for its cost (2150g) ever since the Last Whisper change, but ideally you're only getting it when the mana drain hurts the enemy team significantly.
Yep. Wit's End is very effective vs. low mana pool tanks and it's also very effective vs. steriotypical blue buff hogs (Kassadin and Anivia come to mind). Typically, if I think Wit's End can potentially ruin 3 characters on their team I will get it on Warwick, but it's still a very small niche.
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On January 04 2011 01:02 Jaksiel wrote:
Yi explodes a creep wave quickly enough just from Alpha Strike and auto-attack, you don't need a TIamat.
Bad example? How about the other two?
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On January 03 2011 23:21 Zato-1 wrote:
Wit's End can win games. Super-tanky characters with low mana pools who are useless when oom (Alistar, Nunu, Rammus for example) can be easier to drain out of their mana pools (particularly if more than one person on your team gets a Wit's End, such as Xin Zhao + 1 ranged carry) than harassed / killed, depending on the damage output of your team. It's certainly a very rare situation, but a win's a win.
The 40% attack speed + 30 MRes on the item are also moderately desirable stats for its cost (2150g) ever since the Last Whisper change, but ideally you're only getting it when the mana drain hurts the enemy team significantly.
And then they build towards a frozen heart.
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The reasons why no one should ever seriously buy a Tiamat:
1) the splash range sucks
2) the splash range absolutely friggin' sucks
3) the splash range is terrible
4) A large portion of its cost is devoted to regen - it only appears cost effective because mana regen is terribly overpriced
5) the splash range is so bad
5b) i mean really if your enemies consistently bunch up that close to each other just pick Ryze or Annie or in fact any AoE burst caster congrats you're 500x more effective
6) You're paying 400 extra gold for a weaker bf sword that doesn't build into anything and a little regen
The only thing I like about it is you can open regen bead and faerie charm. To trick your opponents into thinking you're building one.
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On January 04 2011 03:37 Tooplark wrote:
The reasons why no one should ever seriously buy a Tiamat:
1) the splash range sucks
2) the splash range absolutely friggin' sucks
3) the splash range is terrible
4) A large portion of its cost is devoted to regen - it only appears cost effective because mana regen is terribly overpriced
5) the splash range is so bad
5b) i mean really if your enemies consistently bunch up that close to each other just pick Ryze or Annie or in fact any AoE burst caster congrats you're 500x more effective
6) You're paying 400 extra gold for a weaker bf sword that doesn't build into anything and a little regen
The only thing I like about it is you can open regen bead and faerie charm. To trick your opponents into thinking you're building one.
combine 2 tiamats get ubermat
+85 damage
double splash radius
etc
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no, wit's end is not good. (exception being WW cause of his ult)
the mana burn sounds good, but in reality, any auto-attack champ will never actually burn enough mana to matter before the other thing dies, leaving you with just the +42 dmg, but only on some champs. In most cases, there are better damage items.
WW works with it because his ult is naturally good for proc based damage (~200 to his ult), because it doesn't depend on AS to work, and because they're guaranteed hits. That means that he can effectively use it early game when mana pools and regen are small enough to matter. Another thing being that the MR is actually useful on him.
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As we have been discussing, Wit's end is only really effective against low mana pool champions that are mana hungry, but do not generally get mana items. Most of these champions compensate by getting the blue buff a lot.
Also, wits end is more effective than on paper because generally champions such as ashe or AD kogmaw or even nunus. harass before team fights, and so when the fights actually start they generally have about half their mana pool. Hitting them a few times will completely eliminate their pool.
Also I would have to disagree that wit's end works on anivia or kassadin. They have huge mana pools with the items they tend to get so you will never burn a significant amount. Also, if they build towards a frozen heart, keep in mind that your wit's end is about 1k gold cheaper than their frozen heart. You have 1k gold extra on your next item provided you are both on an even farm. Even if they get the frozen heart, wit's end deals magic damage, so the armor they gain will not reduce the 42 damage in any way.
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On January 04 2011 06:50 Kaneh wrote:
the mana burn sounds good, but in reality, any auto-attack champ will never actually burn enough mana to matter before the other thing dies, leaving you with just the +42 dmg, but only on some champs. In most cases, there are better damage items.
what? are you saying that trist is gonna kill a rammus in W-mode before she drains a significant amount of mana? of course not. what about an amumu that's running around waiting for the fight to start that she can snipe 4 hits on. do you think he's going to feel that -160 mana when he's trying to chase someone down after the fight? yeah. don't be dumb
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On January 04 2011 03:37 Tooplark wrote:
4) A large portion of its cost is devoted to regen - it only appears cost effective because mana regen is terribly overpriced
To be fair, I think mana regen is actually priced fine, it's just that runes and meditation are completely broken
Anivia and kassadin are the only champs I can think of that actually have to manage their mana much past the fifteen minute mark, that's just stupid
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problem with tiamat is that it offers nothing but extra farm power, which for most good players is not really an issue, its a design flaw in the role of the item itself
also its too expensive for what little it gives, not to mention it has poor buildup (4 fucking slots to build into 1 shitty midtier item? no thx)
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why do poppys stack philo stones i never understood
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I am personally a fan of Hexdrinker, especially on squishy DPS like shaco. The only time I have ever bought stinger alone was when I played DPS Zilean (lols), but it really is a great item for the cost and it would be great if it built into something DPS characters could use as well. I also tend to purchase will of the ancients every now and then, especially on cho gath. The aura it gives is really a pretty big boost in team fights and I'm surprised more people don't buy it.
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On January 04 2011 09:28 HeavOnEarth wrote:
why do poppys stack philo stones i never understood
poppys suck at farming and like to roam around, so a fairly cheap item that gives gold/5 and hp/mp regen kinda makes sense
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Hexdrinker completely shuts down vlad and karthas's ultimates. It renders their ultimates completely ineffective. More so karthas than any other champion.
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Completely shuts down is an exaggeration. The shield is pretty niche if it's going to be useful or not, and in almost all the games I've encountered it's the latter. Building up a banshees is almost always a better option in my opinion, and while more expensive it's so much more useful that it's worth the price tag.
The only time I would consider getting it is if I haven't farmed up my IE yet and they have burst casters gunning for me and killing me...and that doesn't happen very often.
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On January 04 2011 07:17 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 06:50 Kaneh wrote:
the mana burn sounds good, but in reality, any auto-attack champ will never actually burn enough mana to matter before the other thing dies, leaving you with just the +42 dmg, but only on some champs. In most cases, there are better damage items.
what? are you saying that trist is gonna kill a rammus in W-mode before she drains a significant amount of mana? of course not. what about an amumu that's running around waiting for the fight to start that she can snipe 4 hits on. do you think he's going to feel that -160 mana when he's trying to chase someone down after the fight? yeah. don't be dumb
so you're gonna focus down that rammus with W on right? let's focus tanks to make an item good! -_- don't be dumb
he's def gonna feel that mana when he chases you after you lose that fight. It comes back to wtf is the point. It's an extremely back loaded effect - until they run out of mana, it's effect is exactly nil. Back loaded stuff just isn't viable. Stuff that makes you win the fight now wins. Initiating first wins. Getting that first person down before they can do anything wins. doing damage now and not later wins.
EDIT:: against anivia and kass - again, if you're a realy auto-attack champ, they will die long before the mana burn has any real effect. unless they're some kinda troll tank.
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On January 04 2011 11:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Completely shuts down is an exaggeration. The shield is pretty niche if it's going to be useful or not, and in almost all the games I've encountered it's the latter. Building up a banshees is almost always a better option in my opinion, and while more expensive it's so much more useful that it's worth the price tag.
The only time I would consider getting it is if I haven't farmed up my IE yet and they have burst casters gunning for me and killing me...and that doesn't happen very often.
you don't build hexdrinker on any hero you would build an ie on
item is good
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On January 04 2011 11:09 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 07:17 gtrsrs wrote:On January 04 2011 06:50 Kaneh wrote:
the mana burn sounds good, but in reality, any auto-attack champ will never actually burn enough mana to matter before the other thing dies, leaving you with just the +42 dmg, but only on some champs. In most cases, there are better damage items.
what? are you saying that trist is gonna kill a rammus in W-mode before she drains a significant amount of mana? of course not. what about an amumu that's running around waiting for the fight to start that she can snipe 4 hits on. do you think he's going to feel that -160 mana when he's trying to chase someone down after the fight? yeah. don't be dumb so you're gonna focus down that rammus with W on right? let's focus tanks to make an item good! -_- don't be dumb he's def gonna feel that mana when he chases you after you lose that fight. It comes back to wtf is the point. It's an extremely back loaded effect - until they run out of mana, it's effect is exactly nil. Back loaded stuff just isn't viable. Stuff that makes you win the fight now wins. Initiating first wins. Getting that first person down before they can do anything wins. doing damage now and not later wins. EDIT:: against anivia and kass - again, if you're a realy auto-attack champ, they will die long before the mana burn has any real effect. unless they're some kinda troll tank.
yes, you're going to focus the rammus because you're not trying to kill him, you're trying to burn his mana so he can't kill you.
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Clarity ultimate counter to wit's end
GG no re
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Clarity takes up a summoner skill. Also, they would have to preemptively get clarity in a hope that you would get wit's end. Hex drinker is an exaggeration but it really does make karthas's ultimate from across the map less effective if he wants to finish you off.
@Kaneh
Madred's bloodrazor.
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On January 04 2011 16:31 dignity wrote:
Clarity takes up a summoner skill. Also, they would have to preemptively get clarity in a hope that you would get wit's end.
whoosh whoosh whoosh
User was warned for this post
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if you wanna use onorthodox items go play kayle.
She can make use of nashor's tooth, hextech gunblade and any other ap/ad/as item with retardedly imba stats to back it up. Shame that people won't grand her mid, which she needs so badly.
that and the fact its to easy to go mr & mdef on a tank so both her types of damage will be reduced forcing you to ap/ar and maybe a hextech gunblade on the side. Also, her splash is equal to double the tiamat splash range.
(lategame you have a 2 sec gap (when using nashor) when you arn't ranged, which is quite nice)
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I like Hexdrinker on Eve. I'm only engaging for a short duration and usually eating a lot of magic burst, so Hexdrinker's shield is awesome. Eve also scales best with AD once she has her ult. Apart from Eve though I barely ever build it.
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On January 04 2011 11:17 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 11:09 Kaneh wrote:On January 04 2011 07:17 gtrsrs wrote:On January 04 2011 06:50 Kaneh wrote:
the mana burn sounds good, but in reality, any auto-attack champ will never actually burn enough mana to matter before the other thing dies, leaving you with just the +42 dmg, but only on some champs. In most cases, there are better damage items.
what? are you saying that trist is gonna kill a rammus in W-mode before she drains a significant amount of mana? of course not. what about an amumu that's running around waiting for the fight to start that she can snipe 4 hits on. do you think he's going to feel that -160 mana when he's trying to chase someone down after the fight? yeah. don't be dumb so you're gonna focus down that rammus with W on right? let's focus tanks to make an item good! -_- don't be dumb he's def gonna feel that mana when he chases you after you lose that fight. It comes back to wtf is the point. It's an extremely back loaded effect - until they run out of mana, it's effect is exactly nil. Back loaded stuff just isn't viable. Stuff that makes you win the fight now wins. Initiating first wins. Getting that first person down before they can do anything wins. doing damage now and not later wins. EDIT:: against anivia and kass - again, if you're a realy auto-attack champ, they will die long before the mana burn has any real effect. unless they're some kinda troll tank. yes, you're going to focus the rammus because you're not trying to kill him, you're trying to burn his mana so he can't kill you.
sweet let me know how that works out. haha I really can't beleive you are actually arguing that focusing rammus/tanks to burn thier mana in a fight is actually viable. hahahaha you gotta be trolling. FOCUS THAT RAMMUS WITH W ON TROLOLOLOLOL. maybe after he powerballs in, uses his ult, taunts and puts on w, he'll run out of mana in another 10 hits! only gonna need to focus him and not kill him for 4 more secs! it's like self-cc! why wouldn't I do that!
@ dignity
random words, no explanation
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Guitar, I like you but your "focus rammus using wits end" plan is solidly countered by buying a sapphire crystal in the odd chance that it works. Which it won't.
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Wit's end is fun and all but I find that people usually die before you can burn a significant amount of their mana because I was screwing around in normals and trying to burn people's mana to 0 and then screw around with them but they just died before I could get to that point.
It's too bad because fighting karthus and then burning all of his mana so he has to auto attack you is funny.
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On January 05 2011 09:12 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 11:17 gtrsrs wrote:On January 04 2011 11:09 Kaneh wrote:On January 04 2011 07:17 gtrsrs wrote:On January 04 2011 06:50 Kaneh wrote:
the mana burn sounds good, but in reality, any auto-attack champ will never actually burn enough mana to matter before the other thing dies, leaving you with just the +42 dmg, but only on some champs. In most cases, there are better damage items.
what? are you saying that trist is gonna kill a rammus in W-mode before she drains a significant amount of mana? of course not. what about an amumu that's running around waiting for the fight to start that she can snipe 4 hits on. do you think he's going to feel that -160 mana when he's trying to chase someone down after the fight? yeah. don't be dumb so you're gonna focus down that rammus with W on right? let's focus tanks to make an item good! -_- don't be dumb he's def gonna feel that mana when he chases you after you lose that fight. It comes back to wtf is the point. It's an extremely back loaded effect - until they run out of mana, it's effect is exactly nil. Back loaded stuff just isn't viable. Stuff that makes you win the fight now wins. Initiating first wins. Getting that first person down before they can do anything wins. doing damage now and not later wins. EDIT:: against anivia and kass - again, if you're a realy auto-attack champ, they will die long before the mana burn has any real effect. unless they're some kinda troll tank. yes, you're going to focus the rammus because you're not trying to kill him, you're trying to burn his mana so he can't kill you. sweet let me know how that works out. haha I really can't beleive you are actually arguing that focusing rammus/tanks to burn thier mana in a fight is actually viable. hahahaha you gotta be trolling. FOCUS THAT RAMMUS WITH W ON TROLOLOLOLOL. maybe after he powerballs in, uses his ult, taunts and puts on w, he'll run out of mana in another 10 hits! only gonna need to focus him and not kill him for 4 more secs! it's like self-cc! why wouldn't I do that! @ dignity random words, no explanation
ahahahaha... self-taunt onto rammus, something is just funny about that.
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i just got wits end first on xin and proceeded to focus their alistar in the pre-fight skirmishes so that when the fight came around he was unable to ult or punch our carry away
best strat
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I once had this game on TT where I was Cho, one of my allies disced, and I still owned the enemy team. Did solid damage while being unkillable. We still couldn't stop them from pushing our towers down though. I was bravely defending at the nexus tower, having a 2 minute standoff against Shen. I wanted to finish him off with Feast.
WTF WHERE IS MY MANA?
Turns out their whole team went for Wit's End.
Anyways, as a ranged carry I often get some free shots on a couple of tanky enemies. Often I just can't target anything else because I would have to run past that tank to reach someone else. Usually tanks don't die from these attacks, but the mana drain sure might hurt them a bit.
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Tank w/o mana can be ignored, unless hes got energy or no mana ._.
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On January 05 2011 09:12 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 11:17 gtrsrs wrote:On January 04 2011 11:09 Kaneh wrote:On January 04 2011 07:17 gtrsrs wrote:On January 04 2011 06:50 Kaneh wrote:
the mana burn sounds good, but in reality, any auto-attack champ will never actually burn enough mana to matter before the other thing dies, leaving you with just the +42 dmg, but only on some champs. In most cases, there are better damage items.
what? are you saying that trist is gonna kill a rammus in W-mode before she drains a significant amount of mana? of course not. what about an amumu that's running around waiting for the fight to start that she can snipe 4 hits on. do you think he's going to feel that -160 mana when he's trying to chase someone down after the fight? yeah. don't be dumb so you're gonna focus down that rammus with W on right? let's focus tanks to make an item good! -_- don't be dumb he's def gonna feel that mana when he chases you after you lose that fight. It comes back to wtf is the point. It's an extremely back loaded effect - until they run out of mana, it's effect is exactly nil. Back loaded stuff just isn't viable. Stuff that makes you win the fight now wins. Initiating first wins. Getting that first person down before they can do anything wins. doing damage now and not later wins. EDIT:: against anivia and kass - again, if you're a realy auto-attack champ, they will die long before the mana burn has any real effect. unless they're some kinda troll tank. yes, you're going to focus the rammus because you're not trying to kill him, you're trying to burn his mana so he can't kill you. sweet let me know how that works out. haha I really can't beleive you are actually arguing that focusing rammus/tanks to burn thier mana in a fight is actually viable. hahahaha you gotta be trolling. FOCUS THAT RAMMUS WITH W ON TROLOLOLOLOL. maybe after he powerballs in, uses his ult, taunts and puts on w, he'll run out of mana in another 10 hits! only gonna need to focus him and not kill him for 4 more secs! it's like self-cc! why wouldn't I do that! @ dignity random words, no explanation
Madreds bloodrazor is an item that makes attacking a tank good. The item is good because it lets you kill tanks. Your argument was that "let's focus tanks to make an item good! -_- don't be dumb" but that is exactly what madreds is used for.
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On January 05 2011 09:12 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 11:17 gtrsrs wrote:On January 04 2011 11:09 Kaneh wrote:On January 04 2011 07:17 gtrsrs wrote:On January 04 2011 06:50 Kaneh wrote:
the mana burn sounds good, but in reality, any auto-attack champ will never actually burn enough mana to matter before the other thing dies, leaving you with just the +42 dmg, but only on some champs. In most cases, there are better damage items.
what? are you saying that trist is gonna kill a rammus in W-mode before she drains a significant amount of mana? of course not. what about an amumu that's running around waiting for the fight to start that she can snipe 4 hits on. do you think he's going to feel that -160 mana when he's trying to chase someone down after the fight? yeah. don't be dumb so you're gonna focus down that rammus with W on right? let's focus tanks to make an item good! -_- don't be dumb he's def gonna feel that mana when he chases you after you lose that fight. It comes back to wtf is the point. It's an extremely back loaded effect - until they run out of mana, it's effect is exactly nil. Back loaded stuff just isn't viable. Stuff that makes you win the fight now wins. Initiating first wins. Getting that first person down before they can do anything wins. doing damage now and not later wins. EDIT:: against anivia and kass - again, if you're a realy auto-attack champ, they will die long before the mana burn has any real effect. unless they're some kinda troll tank. yes, you're going to focus the rammus because you're not trying to kill him, you're trying to burn his mana so he can't kill you. sweet let me know how that works out. haha I really can't beleive you are actually arguing that focusing rammus/tanks to burn thier mana in a fight is actually viable. hahahaha you gotta be trolling. FOCUS THAT RAMMUS WITH W ON TROLOLOLOLOL. maybe after he powerballs in, uses his ult, taunts and puts on w, he'll run out of mana in another 10 hits! only gonna need to focus him and not kill him for 4 more secs! it's like self-cc! why wouldn't I do that! @ dignity random words, no explanation
guitar worded it wrong, focus is not the right word, because focus implies that you are actively trying to specifically hit the tank, which is not the case. in teamfights where both teams have decent positioning, many times the only thing you can hit is the tank (i am making the assumption that only the ranged carry is grabbing wits), so its silly to not attack the tank 'on principle' when hes the only one thats within reasonable reach, wits simply gives you a sweet bonus in those situations by burning his mana and making him significantly less useful.
if you are always in a position to never attack tanks and only attack squishies, then you my friend, are a god of LoL or in a really shitty elo, because the better tank players know how to get up in your face and be a total asshole. I remember a discussion at some point why lw was such a great item on ad carries (pre change) since the passive doesnt significantly boost your damage against targets with low armor, but its great against tanks, and a lot of playing ranged carries is kiting tanks. I think wits may be a different approach at the same thing.
edit: how did that url get in there o.O
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madreds + malady + wits end = pretty fun times. throw sotd in for more awesome
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No madreds is good vs any character that stacks HP and even against squishy characters. With only 2k hp this means +80 damage with it's passive (not including damage mitigation).
Wits end on the other hand fills a very small niche that isn't entirely viable because the things it is designed to counter (low mana pool tanks or casters) generally should not be targeted or wouldn't feel it because of high mana pools. Additionally it is an AS speed item so by nature is a lategame item, while lategame is when mana management is not as big of a deal. It's not a bad item imo but it's not good enough to be a standard item but more of a situational item.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 06 2011 09:44 dignity wrote:
Madreds bloodrazor is an item that makes attacking a tank good. The item is good because it lets you kill tanks. Your argument was that "let's focus tanks to make an item good! -_- don't be dumb" but that is exactly what madreds is used for.
Why do people always say Madreds is an anti-tank item? Sure they have higher HP, but they also have higher MR. If they're playing well, the aforementioned stats should be balanced appropriately. It's only really rewards attacking tanks in the case that:
1) The opposing tanks are disproportionately invested into HP
2) Your team has no damage diversity and the opponents would otherwise get away with stacking HP/Armor and ignoring MR
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On January 06 2011 09:44 dignity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 09:12 Kaneh wrote:On January 04 2011 11:17 gtrsrs wrote:On January 04 2011 11:09 Kaneh wrote:On January 04 2011 07:17 gtrsrs wrote:On January 04 2011 06:50 Kaneh wrote:
the mana burn sounds good, but in reality, any auto-attack champ will never actually burn enough mana to matter before the other thing dies, leaving you with just the +42 dmg, but only on some champs. In most cases, there are better damage items.
what? are you saying that trist is gonna kill a rammus in W-mode before she drains a significant amount of mana? of course not. what about an amumu that's running around waiting for the fight to start that she can snipe 4 hits on. do you think he's going to feel that -160 mana when he's trying to chase someone down after the fight? yeah. don't be dumb so you're gonna focus down that rammus with W on right? let's focus tanks to make an item good! -_- don't be dumb he's def gonna feel that mana when he chases you after you lose that fight. It comes back to wtf is the point. It's an extremely back loaded effect - until they run out of mana, it's effect is exactly nil. Back loaded stuff just isn't viable. Stuff that makes you win the fight now wins. Initiating first wins. Getting that first person down before they can do anything wins. doing damage now and not later wins. EDIT:: against anivia and kass - again, if you're a realy auto-attack champ, they will die long before the mana burn has any real effect. unless they're some kinda troll tank. yes, you're going to focus the rammus because you're not trying to kill him, you're trying to burn his mana so he can't kill you. sweet let me know how that works out. haha I really can't beleive you are actually arguing that focusing rammus/tanks to burn thier mana in a fight is actually viable. hahahaha you gotta be trolling. FOCUS THAT RAMMUS WITH W ON TROLOLOLOLOL. maybe after he powerballs in, uses his ult, taunts and puts on w, he'll run out of mana in another 10 hits! only gonna need to focus him and not kill him for 4 more secs! it's like self-cc! why wouldn't I do that! @ dignity random words, no explanation Madreds bloodrazor is an item that makes attacking a tank good. The item is good because it lets you kill tanks. Your argument was that "let's focus tanks to make an item good! -_- don't be dumb" but that is exactly what madreds is used for.
okay, so then why build wit's instead of something that would kill them faster? why burn mana if you're trying to kill them? srsly.
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I use Wits end on WW. My build for WW is getting Madreds Bloodrazor and then survivability like GA, Banshees Veil, Frozen Mallet Merc Treads.
However Wits End can be great because first off it procs 42 damage a hit for WWs ult. and as WW has a great AS skilll it makes it proc more. Plus when WW Ults he get a lot of aggro. And the MR helps with reducing the damage you take with Mages.
So if the whole team has mana or even 4 out of five i try to get a Wits end. Thats just my two cents but im low elo so take it with a grain of salt. But what do you guys thing about it.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 16 2011 05:47 jaybrundage wrote:
I use Wits end on WW. My build for WW is getting Madreds Bloodrazor and then survivability like GA, Banshees Veil, Frozen Mallet Merc Treads.
However Wits End can be great because first off it procs 42 damage a hit for WWs ult. and as WW has a great AS skilll it makes it proc more. Plus when WW Ults he get a lot of aggro. And the MR helps with reducing the damage you take with Mages.
So if the whole team has mana or even 4 out of five i try to get a Wits end. Thats just my two cents but im low elo so take it with a grain of salt. But what do you guys thing about it.
The thing about WW is that the main place where you reliably proc your on-hit effects is through your ultimate--and most of the time, the enemies that Wit's End is good against (mana-dependent champs that don't build towards mana like Rammus as previously mentioned) are generally poor targets for your ultimate.
And unlike ranged champs, Warwick has no pre-fight poking, so he can't really burn off mana before the fight starts either.
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I think Wit's end is kinda nice on Sivir. She usually just attacks whatever she can target, and quite often that is a low mana tank. She'll still hurt everyone else. Of course it's kinda unfortunate that only the first hit procs the effect, but to be honest, most ASpd items are kinda bad on Sivir aside from plain Recurve and possibly Starks/SotD.
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wits end kinda nice on irelia after black cleaver for more AS/MR, especially if you wanna skip spirit visage. she gets like 1.5 AS with cleaver + Wits end and with mercs + wits end you've got 120+MR so i think it's p great on her.
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On January 16 2011 05:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 05:47 jaybrundage wrote:
I use Wits end on WW. My build for WW is getting Madreds Bloodrazor and then survivability like GA, Banshees Veil, Frozen Mallet Merc Treads.
However Wits End can be great because first off it procs 42 damage a hit for WWs ult. and as WW has a great AS skilll it makes it proc more. Plus when WW Ults he get a lot of aggro. And the MR helps with reducing the damage you take with Mages.
So if the whole team has mana or even 4 out of five i try to get a Wits end. Thats just my two cents but im low elo so take it with a grain of salt. But what do you guys thing about it. The thing about WW is that the main place where you reliably proc your on-hit effects is through your ultimate--and most of the time, the enemies that Wit's End is good against (mana-dependent champs that don't build towards mana like Rammus as previously mentioned) are generally poor targets for your ultimate. And unlike ranged champs, Warwick has no pre-fight poking, so he can't really burn off mana before the fight starts either.
i'm fine with wits on ww, its honestly the only dmg item outside of bloodrazor i would ever build on him. That said, its certainly luxury/situational, and ww's late game can actually end up ulting tanks if its to peel your carry. Not to mention, the whole 'omfg you wont get procs unless you ult' screams of bullshit to me, i dont have problems hitting people with autos at all...
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On January 16 2011 05:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 05:47 jaybrundage wrote:
I use Wits end on WW. My build for WW is getting Madreds Bloodrazor and then survivability like GA, Banshees Veil, Frozen Mallet Merc Treads.
However Wits End can be great because first off it procs 42 damage a hit for WWs ult. and as WW has a great AS skilll it makes it proc more. Plus when WW Ults he get a lot of aggro. And the MR helps with reducing the damage you take with Mages.
So if the whole team has mana or even 4 out of five i try to get a Wits end. Thats just my two cents but im low elo so take it with a grain of salt. But what do you guys thing about it. The thing about WW is that the main place where you reliably proc your on-hit effects is through your ultimate--and most of the time, the enemies that Wit's End is good against (mana-dependent champs that don't build towards mana like Rammus as previously mentioned) are generally poor targets for your ultimate. And unlike ranged champs, Warwick has no pre-fight poking, so he can't really burn off mana before the fight starts either.
Well thats the thing tho mana starvation is not my goal with WW when i get wits end on him. Its for 3 things for the attack speed so i can proc my madreds more when i auto attack, the bit of mr it gives and the Unique passive gives you 42 magic damage each hit.
You don't need to starve them of mana for that to be effective imo. Carries primarly don't build MR so it can be pretty good damage. To me at least is Wits end had the stats 40% attack speed, 30 MR and 42 Damage for the same price it would still be a an awesome steal. I don't build much damage on WW primarly i am a fan of the mosty defensive WW,
Consisting of Madreds, Frozen Mallet into GA, or Banshees every thing is game dependent obviously. But also i do try to get my auto attacks in there. Sometimes i get focused but im tanky enough that if the do focus me my team should be able to clean them up. Plus with my GA i can get my ult and then use Hungering Stike to get some more health and Run away / clean up.
But also for prefight poking I use Hungering Strike if i can one people with out much MR it takes a big chunk of health 20% to be exact 
People don't expect it but it has about the range of Vlads Q maybe a bit smalller.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 16 2011 09:43 barbsq wrote:
i'm fine with wits on ww, its honestly the only dmg item outside of bloodrazor i would ever build on him. That said, its certainly luxury/situational, and ww's late game can actually end up ulting tanks if its to peel your carry. Not to mention, the whole 'omfg you wont get procs unless you ult' screams of bullshit to me, i dont have problems hitting people with autos at all...
If I wanted another item just for damage, Malady does that better.
The mana proc is better in the hands of a ranged champ. It's not an issue of getting autoattacks--its an issue of getting them earlier in the fight (or before the fight), so the procs matter more.
On January 18 2011 09:44 jaybrundage wrote:
Well thats the thing tho mana starvation is not my goal with WW when i get wits end on him. Its for 3 things for the attack speed so i can proc my madreds more when i auto attack, the bit of mr it gives and the Unique passive gives you 42 magic damage each hit.
If you're not making use of the mana proc, Malady does the same things better--10% more aspd, and trades 22 of the proc damage for the MR reduction debuff (which scales into most of your damage--resulting in more total damage against most targets when you factor in Bloodrazor and Q). It eschews the MR, but is also several hundred gold cheaper because of it (which you can use to buy another MR item).
Wit's End is not competitive with other attack speed items based on the stats alone--you have to be making use of the mana burn for it to be worthwhile in comparison to the alternatives. And because the proc will not be useful against all teams, that makes it situational at best. And in the situations I'd want it, it would probably be best on a ranged AD champ over a melee one, because you can get rid of mana earlier in the fight (poking, plus there's less distance for you to close on your target), which is drastically more useful than doing so later. I'd only get it on WW or other melee champs in a solo queue situation where your ranged carry is too bull-headed or underfarmed to get one. And I'd be getting it because the team needs one, not because it's "good" on Warwick.
Note that I'm not suggesting getting Malady on Warwick. Personally I don't think he even needs a non-Bloodrazor damage item. And I think the other attack speed options are just as situational as Wit's End is (Malady needs magic damage, Stark's needs another AD champ to benefit from the aura, etc.). The point being, you need some discretion as to which one is most appropriate (and in the case of WW, that choice is usually none of them, with Stark's and Malady being somewhat more likely than Wit's End).
On January 18 2011 09:44 jaybrundage wrote:
You don't need to starve them of mana for that to be effective imo. Carries primarly don't build MR so it can be pretty good damage. To me at least is Wits end had the stats 40% attack speed, 30 MR and 42 Damage for the same price it would still be a an awesome steal. I don't build much damage on WW primarly i am a fan of the mosty defensive WW,
Most WWs don't build damage beyond Bloodrazor. Considering Wit's End is already building more damage than your average WW.
The stats on Wit's End aren't bad--the thing is it's often questionable if Warwick even NEEDS a second damage item other than Bloodrazor. Unless you're carrying super-hard and have gold flowing out your ass, I don't see why you'd get Wit's End over Randuin's, BVeil, or Guardian Angel (excluding the aforementioned situation where your team needs one but your ranged carry can't/won't get one). And you won't be able to buy anything beyond that unless you're somehow seeing 15k+ gold a game, which, again, shouldn't happen unless you're just carrying super-hard.
On January 18 2011 09:44 jaybrundage wrote:But also for prefight poking I use Hungering Strike if i can one people with out much MR it takes a big chunk of health 20% to be exact People don't expect it but it has about the range of Vlads Q maybe a bit smalller.
Hungering Strike range - 400
Transfusion range - 600
Yeah, sure, that's about the same. Not to mention that's still irrelevant to the discussion as you don't proc Wit's End off of Hungering Strike.
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ww's q as long range as vlad's q?
what is this i don't even
On January 18 2011 10:49 TheYango wrote:
The stats on Wit's End aren't bad--the thing is it's often questionable if Warwick even NEEDS a second damage item other than Bloodrazor. Unless you're carrying super-hard and have gold flowing out your ass, I don't see why you'd get Wit's End over Randuin's, BVeil, or Guardian Angel.
i dunno why but this made me laugh like hell lol
maybe it's the image of gold flowing out of one's ass...
i think bloodrazor + wit's end + malady would be brutal on ww
it sounds really fun lol
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is awesome32274 Posts
On January 04 2011 11:09 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 07:17 gtrsrs wrote:On January 04 2011 06:50 Kaneh wrote:
the mana burn sounds good, but in reality, any auto-attack champ will never actually burn enough mana to matter before the other thing dies, leaving you with just the +42 dmg, but only on some champs. In most cases, there are better damage items.
what? are you saying that trist is gonna kill a rammus in W-mode before she drains a significant amount of mana? of course not. what about an amumu that's running around waiting for the fight to start that she can snipe 4 hits on. do you think he's going to feel that -160 mana when he's trying to chase someone down after the fight? yeah. don't be dumb so you're gonna focus down that rammus with W on right? let's focus tanks to make an item good! -_- don't be dumb he's def gonna feel that mana when he chases you after you lose that fight. It comes back to wtf is the point. It's an extremely back loaded effect - until they run out of mana, it's effect is exactly nil. Back loaded stuff just isn't viable. Stuff that makes you win the fight now wins. Initiating first wins. Getting that first person down before they can do anything wins. doing damage now and not later wins. EDIT:: against anivia and kass - again, if you're a realy auto-attack champ, they will die long before the mana burn has any real effect. unless they're some kinda troll tank.
Swain
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EPT
