|
On January 17 2011 10:17 gtrsrs wrote:
like 5hit i don't want you to get me wrong. do i think i'm a top 100 player in this game? no. am i saying that you're bad, or that ezpz is bad, or that i'm better than numbers? no (although i must say that i was really tickled once when you said that i was at least as good as you tbh). i'm not saying that i'm better than spudboy, but i've played a lot with spudboy and he (might) agree that i can "hang with him." again i'm not trying to insult any of the better TL players. i remember when 5hit was like 1400 elo, really close to mine. and then he was like "it's time to kick it into high gear and get to my true elo" and like 3 weeks later he was 1800 and i was just baffled. i obviously don't have the ability to do that or i would. but can i at least play at the 1600 level? well, our tourney games so far say yes. and i can say with confidence that i'm the only TLer to play with the worst of the worst and the best of the best so i have a good idea of the skill levels of everyone all across the board and so yes, i will back up my position that elo hell exists.
i mean take a look at the 1200-1400 range (which i consider to be elo hell). your team captain may have only 4 games under his belt (3 of which he fed like crazy, one of which he played tank teemo cause he thinks it's the best build), but since riot uses the retarded skipping stone method with HUGE elo boosts when you start playing, he's like 1460 elo. meanwhile i worked my way up from the 700 elo level and have hundreds of games but since i've been fucked in recent games i'm only at 1300. this player thinks that numbers mean everything and so when i tell him not to go to lane with sapphire crystal when his teemo only has 420 HP, he tells me "stfu noob i'm team captain you are noob you took smite on WW." i look at our other lanes, annie with sapphire crystal, ezrael with vamp scepter, shen with ruby gem. WOW REAL STRONG EARLY GAME WE GOT HERE. of course annie and ezrael give double first blood before i even finish blue buff. this game is over. was any part of it my fault? absolutely not. these games happen a lot more than they should at this level
no bro, it's not elo hell or anything. It's joo. Last time I played with you, which was kinda long ago, you had the potential to be at least 1600 elo, but it was small things, small mistakes, holding you back. Those small things might let you pass, and hang with people in higher elo, but it's not going to get your elo any higher. Once you fix those small things, you will get to higher elo.
|
United States37500 Posts
I totally saw that post numbers! No ninja edit for you lolz
|
@gtrsrs: It seems to me like there's a difference in 'what it takes to get out of 1200-1400' and 'what it takes to hang with 1600 players. I'm not 1600, so I dunno what play is like up there - but I'd like to imagine that at that level you can afford to rely on your teammates a bit more than 1200-1400.
Maybe thats why you find yourself doing well in premades. By all accounts i've heard, solo q is a pretty different game from 5v5.
What I'm trying to say is... they measure different skills. Solo q measures your ability to drag your team kicking and screaming to victory, premades are more about your ability to play with an organised team.
|
On January 17 2011 10:12 Two_DoWn wrote:
When are we going to get a dps garen guide?
There has to be more to it than
1 Build phantom dancers
2 Run around
3 .....
4 profit
nope.
|
On January 17 2011 10:56 sRapers_ValkS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 10:12 Two_DoWn wrote:
When are we going to get a dps garen guide?
There has to be more to it than
1 Build phantom dancers
2 Run around
3 .....
4 profit nope.
I think you forgot the spinning part
|
i used to run boots of swiftness, ghostblade X4sunfire and just rofl face. now they removed sunfire stack and i dont know wat to do D:<
|
On January 17 2011 10:58 Abenson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 10:56 sRapers_ValkS wrote:On January 17 2011 10:12 Two_DoWn wrote:
When are we going to get a dps garen guide?
There has to be more to it than
1 Build phantom dancers
2 Run around
3 .....
4 profit nope. I think you forgot the spinning part
dps PD garen only needs to spin when someone tries to slow him down.
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:59 Asdkmoga wrote:
i used to run boots of swiftness, ghostblade X4sunfire and just rofl face. now they removed sunfire stack and i dont know wat to do D:<
Get FoN and Randuin?
Even when Sunfire stacked they were still reasonable buys.
|
On January 17 2011 10:25 0123456789 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 10:17 gtrsrs wrote:
like 5hit i don't want you to get me wrong. do i think i'm a top 100 player in this game? no. am i saying that you're bad, or that ezpz is bad, or that i'm better than numbers? no (although i must say that i was really tickled once when you said that i was at least as good as you tbh). i'm not saying that i'm better than spudboy, but i've played a lot with spudboy and he (might) agree that i can "hang with him." again i'm not trying to insult any of the better TL players. i remember when 5hit was like 1400 elo, really close to mine. and then he was like "it's time to kick it into high gear and get to my true elo" and like 3 weeks later he was 1800 and i was just baffled. i obviously don't have the ability to do that or i would. but can i at least play at the 1600 level? well, our tourney games so far say yes. and i can say with confidence that i'm the only TLer to play with the worst of the worst and the best of the best so i have a good idea of the skill levels of everyone all across the board and so yes, i will back up my position that elo hell exists.
i mean take a look at the 1200-1400 range (which i consider to be elo hell). your team captain may have only 4 games under his belt (3 of which he fed like crazy, one of which he played tank teemo cause he thinks it's the best build), but since riot uses the retarded skipping stone method with HUGE elo boosts when you start playing, he's like 1460 elo. meanwhile i worked my way up from the 700 elo level and have hundreds of games but since i've been fucked in recent games i'm only at 1300. this player thinks that numbers mean everything and so when i tell him not to go to lane with sapphire crystal when his teemo only has 420 HP, he tells me "stfu noob i'm team captain you are noob you took smite on WW." i look at our other lanes, annie with sapphire crystal, ezrael with vamp scepter, shen with ruby gem. WOW REAL STRONG EARLY GAME WE GOT HERE. of course annie and ezrael give double first blood before i even finish blue buff. this game is over. was any part of it my fault? absolutely not. these games happen a lot more than they should at this level no bro, it's not elo hell or anything. It's joo. Last time I played with you, which was kinda long ago, you had the potential to be at least 1600 elo, but it was small things, small mistakes, holding you back. Those small things might let you pass, and hang with people in higher elo, but it's not going to get your elo any higher. Once you fix those small things, you will get to higher elo.
to this and dgiese's post... that's my definition of elo hell: the only way to win is to win 1v5 because your teammates are fucking idiots. make small mistakes? lose 9 games in a row, no one is going to cover for you. shen, annie, galio, malphite... the champs i like to play, can't carry. i can play a support hero at the 1600 level and win because my lanemate won't come to lane with 400 HP and no health pots.
you guys are just reinforcing what i'm saying: that's elo hell. i don't want to have to learn MF just to get to a level where i can play shen, you know?
|
Just watched Dan Dinh play Heimer, which I hadn't seen post-Zhonya-split. I still think opening Archangel's makes sense on Heimer so you don't run of mana instantaneously, but deathcap is pretty badass on him and must be your second item at latest. I can also see going with CDR boots -- if you're going AP -> void staff, the CDR is a huge deal. Of course, Heimer buffs coming next patch...
|
United States37500 Posts
On January 17 2011 12:34 oberon wrote:
Just watched Dan Dinh play Heimer, which I hadn't seen post-Zhonya-split. I still think opening Archangel's makes sense on Heimer so you don't run of mana instantaneously, but deathcap is pretty badass on him and must be your second item at latest. I can also see going with CDR boots -- if you're going AP -> void staff, the CDR is a huge deal. Of course, Heimer buffs coming next patch...
Early Tear, late Staff.
saintvicious, who I think is the current top Heimer, runs Tear, Deathcap, Rylai's, Void Staff.
|
On January 17 2011 12:39 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 12:34 oberon wrote:
Just watched Dan Dinh play Heimer, which I hadn't seen post-Zhonya-split. I still think opening Archangel's makes sense on Heimer so you don't run of mana instantaneously, but deathcap is pretty badass on him and must be your second item at latest. I can also see going with CDR boots -- if you're going AP -> void staff, the CDR is a huge deal. Of course, Heimer buffs coming next patch... Early Tear, late Staff. saintvicious, who I think is the current top Heimer, runs Tear, Deathcap, Rylai's, Void Staff.
Yeah, late staff makes a ton of sense (it didn't used to with Zhonya's, because that was AP-inefficient until you had ~80AP, but Deathcap is just badass). I don't buy into Rylai's before Void, however. It gives a ton of utility (HP, minor slow, etc.), but Heimer should be running ghost/flash and staying back in teamfights -- I'd rather get my pen up earlier.
I guess I'd go Tear, boots, Deathcap, Archangel's, Void Staff. Still not sure on CDR boots -- Heimer may hit max CDR just from blue buff + his ult (ult is 20% -- what's golem give?). On the other hand, sorc boots are mediocre with void staff. Maybe boots of speed?
|
United States37500 Posts
On January 17 2011 12:46 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 12:39 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 17 2011 12:34 oberon wrote:
Just watched Dan Dinh play Heimer, which I hadn't seen post-Zhonya-split. I still think opening Archangel's makes sense on Heimer so you don't run of mana instantaneously, but deathcap is pretty badass on him and must be your second item at latest. I can also see going with CDR boots -- if you're going AP -> void staff, the CDR is a huge deal. Of course, Heimer buffs coming next patch... Early Tear, late Staff. saintvicious, who I think is the current top Heimer, runs Tear, Deathcap, Rylai's, Void Staff. Yeah, late staff makes a ton of sense (it didn't used to with Zhonya's, because that was AP-inefficient until you had ~80AP, but Deathcap is just badass). I don't buy into Rylai's before Void, however. It gives a ton of utility (HP, minor slow, etc.), but Heimer should be running ghost/flash and staying back in teamfights -- I'd rather get my pen up earlier. I guess I'd go Tear, boots, Deathcap, Archangel's, Void Staff. Still not sure on CDR boots -- Heimer may hit max CDR just from blue buff + his ult (ult is 20% -- what's golem give?). On the other hand, sorc boots are mediocre with void staff. Maybe boots of speed?
Already not going the "standard" RoA, you need to get a Rylai's at least or else you're extremely squishy. Standing in the back with Turrets up is nice and all but you still need to get in range to throw Rockets, which is Heimer actual source of damage.
saint goes Sorc Boots still, but he utilizes Turrets and Grenades more. I play with Rocket primarily, so I would go CDR Boots.
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 17 2011 12:46 oberon wrote:
Yeah, late staff makes a ton of sense (it didn't used to with Zhonya's, because that was AP-inefficient until you had ~80AP, but Deathcap is just badass). I don't buy into Rylai's before Void, however. It gives a ton of utility (HP, minor slow, etc.), but Heimer should be running ghost/flash and staying back in teamfights -- I'd rather get my pen up earlier.
2-3 DRings + AP Quints + AP/lvl glyphs + masteries gets you to 80 AP ~level 10, Zhonya's was cost-effective by time you got it, AND Heimer gets utility out of the active--both Dan and Asier did DRing stack->Zhonya rush IIRC, before the split.
On January 17 2011 12:53 NeoIllusions wrote:
saint goes Sorc Boots still, but he utilizes Turrets and Grenades more. I play with Rocket primarily, so I would go CDR Boots.
Dan goes Sorcs, and gets Guise after Deathcap, even with Rocket-heavy play, but he also still does DRing stack->Deathcap, so mana management is generally more limiting early on than CDR.
|
hmm, i still have to get heimer, gotta ruin my undefeated record with him
|
On January 17 2011 12:53 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 12:46 oberon wrote:On January 17 2011 12:39 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 17 2011 12:34 oberon wrote:
Just watched Dan Dinh play Heimer, which I hadn't seen post-Zhonya-split. I still think opening Archangel's makes sense on Heimer so you don't run of mana instantaneously, but deathcap is pretty badass on him and must be your second item at latest. I can also see going with CDR boots -- if you're going AP -> void staff, the CDR is a huge deal. Of course, Heimer buffs coming next patch... Early Tear, late Staff. saintvicious, who I think is the current top Heimer, runs Tear, Deathcap, Rylai's, Void Staff. Yeah, late staff makes a ton of sense (it didn't used to with Zhonya's, because that was AP-inefficient until you had ~80AP, but Deathcap is just badass). I don't buy into Rylai's before Void, however. It gives a ton of utility (HP, minor slow, etc.), but Heimer should be running ghost/flash and staying back in teamfights -- I'd rather get my pen up earlier. I guess I'd go Tear, boots, Deathcap, Archangel's, Void Staff. Still not sure on CDR boots -- Heimer may hit max CDR just from blue buff + his ult (ult is 20% -- what's golem give?). On the other hand, sorc boots are mediocre with void staff. Maybe boots of speed? Already not going the "standard" RoA, you need to get a Rylai's at least or else you're extremely squishy. Standing in the back with Turrets up is nice and all but you still need to get in range to throw Rockets, which is Heimer actual source of damage. saint goes Sorc Boots still, but he utilizes Turrets and Grenades more. I play with Rocket primarily, so I would go CDR Boots.
Do people tend to open D-Ring? I saw Dan open with 2, but since I always got Tear first I would always open meki. The HP is nice and all, but getting that Tear 300-some-odd cash earlier is pretty important, I think.
|
On January 17 2011 12:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 12:46 oberon wrote:
Yeah, late staff makes a ton of sense (it didn't used to with Zhonya's, because that was AP-inefficient until you had ~80AP, but Deathcap is just badass). I don't buy into Rylai's before Void, however. It gives a ton of utility (HP, minor slow, etc.), but Heimer should be running ghost/flash and staying back in teamfights -- I'd rather get my pen up earlier.
2-3 DRings + AP Quints + AP/lvl glyphs + masteries gets you to 80 AP ~level 10, Zhonya's was cost-effective by time you got it, AND Heimer gets utility out of the active--both Dan and Asier did DRing stack->Zhonya rush IIRC, before the split. Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 12:53 NeoIllusions wrote:
saint goes Sorc Boots still, but he utilizes Turrets and Grenades more. I play with Rocket primarily, so I would go CDR Boots. Dan goes Sorcs, and gets Guise after Deathcap, even with Rocket-heavy play, but he also still does DRing stack->Deathcap, so mana management is generally more limiting early on than CDR.
dan gets his tear very late, as yango said mana management is the limiting factor to heimer's early play not cdr, and thus this explains why dan and co go sorcs and don't level R until rockets are maxed.
i just watched him play a game post deathcap; he went dring->boots + dring -> sorcs -> deathcap -> guise -> tear and he ended the game before he could buy AA staff. dring stack is just so gud on heimer because he makes full use out of all its stats (AP mregen and HP) that i don't see why u would have to rush tear on heimer because you should be b'ing for your important items at relatively short intervals anyhoo (and that 2dorans is so much more accessible than fast tear).
|
just out of curiosity, why dont ppl do catalyst stuff with heimer?
i dont see any reason why roa would be particularly bad on heimer in any way. btw, this is the perspective of a person who has played heimer a grand total of 3 times.
|
On January 17 2011 13:20 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 12:53 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 17 2011 12:46 oberon wrote:On January 17 2011 12:39 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 17 2011 12:34 oberon wrote:
Just watched Dan Dinh play Heimer, which I hadn't seen post-Zhonya-split. I still think opening Archangel's makes sense on Heimer so you don't run of mana instantaneously, but deathcap is pretty badass on him and must be your second item at latest. I can also see going with CDR boots -- if you're going AP -> void staff, the CDR is a huge deal. Of course, Heimer buffs coming next patch... Early Tear, late Staff. saintvicious, who I think is the current top Heimer, runs Tear, Deathcap, Rylai's, Void Staff. Yeah, late staff makes a ton of sense (it didn't used to with Zhonya's, because that was AP-inefficient until you had ~80AP, but Deathcap is just badass). I don't buy into Rylai's before Void, however. It gives a ton of utility (HP, minor slow, etc.), but Heimer should be running ghost/flash and staying back in teamfights -- I'd rather get my pen up earlier. I guess I'd go Tear, boots, Deathcap, Archangel's, Void Staff. Still not sure on CDR boots -- Heimer may hit max CDR just from blue buff + his ult (ult is 20% -- what's golem give?). On the other hand, sorc boots are mediocre with void staff. Maybe boots of speed? Already not going the "standard" RoA, you need to get a Rylai's at least or else you're extremely squishy. Standing in the back with Turrets up is nice and all but you still need to get in range to throw Rockets, which is Heimer actual source of damage. saint goes Sorc Boots still, but he utilizes Turrets and Grenades more. I play with Rocket primarily, so I would go CDR Boots. Do people tend to open D-Ring? I saw Dan open with 2, but since I always got Tear first I would always open meki. The HP is nice and all, but getting that Tear 300-some-odd cash earlier is pretty important, I think.
that AP is cash
and health is #1 cheapstat on dorans items
what is tear?
Say you get meki + 2 pots. getting tear costs 600 ish more gold, is worth like getting 1 and a half dorans rings. or close to doran ring + boots. ignoring boots, u get 1 less mana regen and a larger mana pool. since u should be never full mana as heimer if u harass well with missile, this means you actually pay for a weaker mana regeneration rate and 20 less AP and 200 less HP. you are weaker in lane, there is no doubt about that.
the passive and the item it will eventually build to (AA staff) cost so much more that you could buy sorc boot upgrade and blasting rod for less than that price and probably get more dps at that stage of the game.
|
United States47024 Posts
The other thing is that Tear mana is just overkill during laning--2 Doran's is plenty to sustain you in a solo lane. Unless you're wasting Rocket to farm, or are bad at managing turrets and have to turret more often than you should, most of your mana consumption is just Rocketing once at the end of every creep wave, when you can guarantee a hit on a champion. Base regen + Doran's + mp5 seals + masteries covers that easily.
Also, Meki start just seems bad. Even if you were going to start that quickly toward your Tear, IMO Sapph Crystal + SoS is better (along with your passive, you'll have something like 20 hp5 at level 1).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
