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MotherFox
United States1529 Posts
On November 10 2015 03:51 Wuster wrote: In hindsight Leoric fit that idea very well too. Yeah, this was the central idea of the comp: every single character could re-enter fights immediately on spawning after death, and most of the characters were either hard to kill(tass/abathur) or hard to kill and keep out for long(leo/murk) | ||
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MotherFox
United States1529 Posts
http://gfycat.com/CooperativeSphericalAustralianshelduck | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 10 2015 03:51 Wuster wrote: You know, ultimately that game was something we haven't seen a lot of. Murky is very rare in competitive and Abathur backdoor strats were considered outdated. It feels pretty presumptuous to be saying of they made this mistake or that mistake with their talent selection. I think there's a very good chance they practiced those scenarios before Blizzcon and this is what they ended up on. Besides, Dunktrain wasn't on Tassadar that game (he was Brightwing), they put K1Pro on him. Please stop hearing only what you want to hear. On November 10 2015 03:28 SC2John wrote: Leeching Plasma/Khala's Embrace would have excellent for that composition, but they made it work a different way. Not sure if I liked the Psi-Infusion/Static Charge combo, but I can see why that would be considered valid with that particular composition. I agree with the talent selection, but I think there's a possibility there's a better alternative. MVP Black went full auto Zeratul with Shadow Assault in the finals of the OGN Super League...does a sample size of 1 prove it's legitimacy as an optimized strategy? And DunkTrain DID play Tassadar on Day 1 against Dignitas (Game 1 on Cursed Hollow). Please. | ||
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MotherFox
United States1529 Posts
On November 10 2015 04:56 SC2John wrote: I agree with the talent selection, but I think there's a possibility there's a better alternative. MVP Black went full auto Zeratul with Shadow Assault in the finals of the OGN Super League...does a sample size of 1 prove it's legitimacy as an optimized strategy? . To change topics completely.... I've been thinking about this since we spoke about it the other night. That game featured Tyreal, Illidan, Rehgar, Tassadar, and abathur on the opposing team. The #1 question when using void prism is "what do I want to accomplish with this thing?". In a big team fight you typically you want to void prism the dps of the enemy team so that your team can focus down one or two characters that are caught out of it. alternatively you can VP to set up a big wombo, or just use it as a very expensive escape/disengage mechanism. However, with that Tyreal/Illi/Rehgar/Tassadar setup, who is he going to VP? Rehgar and Tassadar? If he VPs illidan or tyreal, there is a really good chance he's going to VP his own team. Maybe in some situations where the VPs are likely to get scrappy or you just won't be able to land a good one shadow assault is the way to go? Or maybe I don't know anything about Zeratul. That's a definitely probability regardless of whether I'm right or not  But I have been thinking about this topic a lot since I have been playing Sylvanas a lot lately--- she has a similar thought process in terms of asking yourself, "How do I want to use my wailing arrow against this enemy comp?". Wailing arrow has a very wide spectrum of usefulness against different comps, and I suspect that VP might have some limited usefulness against very specific comps. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 10 2015 05:04 MotherFox wrote: To change topics completely.... I've been thinking about this since we spoke about it the other night. That game featured Tyreal, Illidan, Rehgar, Tassadar, and abathur on the opposing team. The #1 question when using void prism is "what do I want to accomplish with this thing?". In a big team fight you typically you want to void prism the dps of the enemy team so that your team can focus down one or two characters that are caught out of it. alternatively you can VP to set up a big wombo, or just use it as a very expensive escape/disengage mechanism. However, with that Tyreal/Illi/Rehgar/Tassadar setup, who is he going to VP? Rehgar and Tassadar? If he VPs illidan or tyreal, there is a really good chance he's going to VP his own team. Maybe in some situations where the VPs are likely to get scrappy or you just won't be able to land a good one shadow assault is the way to go? Or maybe I don't know anything about Zeratul. That's a definitely probability regardless of whether I'm right or not But I have been thinking about this topic a lot since I have been playing Sylvanas a lot lately--- she has a similar thought process in terms of asking yourself, "How do I want to use my wailing arrow against this enemy comp?". Wailing arrow has a very wide spectrum of usefulness against different comps, and I suspect that VP might have some limited usefulness against very specific comps.I don't think either heroic is particularly comp-dependent. 95% of the time, Wailing Arrow is an initiation tool. The remaining 5% you'll want to use it as an emergency interrupt. VP, on the other hand, is something that you generally don't want to use as an initiation tool unless you 1) are incredibly good at trapping 3-5 enemies at a time, and 2) your team is a wombo comp. The better move in almost all circumstances is to use it mid-fight to trap the enemy healer and whoever else you can get, giving your team 5 seconds to kill 1-2 enemies. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On one side I think they can make or break the game and I often try to get atleast Muradin or Uther in the team composition to get stuns in, hopefully both. In many games where we had double or even triple stuns the engagements can be very one sided. It can be very satisfying to get that second or third stun in onto an enemy hero and seal their fate. Then again, many games where I've played heroes such as Sylvanas, Valla, Zagara, Tyrael or even Artanis had limited stuns be still focused down heroes without much issue. I suppose there is something to be sad for plain old raw damage. Would a stun comp (say Muradin, Uther, Tyrande, Kael'Thas and Jaina for dmg) beat a similarly strong composition but with less stuns but maybe higher damage? | ||
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MotherFox
United States1529 Posts
On November 10 2015 05:16 xDaunt wrote: The remaining 5% you'll want to use it as an emergency interrupt. VP, on the other hand, is something that you generally don't want to use as an initiation tool unless you 1) are incredibly good at trapping 3-5 enemies at a time, and 2) your team is a wombo comp. The better move in almost all circumstances is to use it mid-fight to trap the enemy healer and whoever else you can get, giving your team 5 seconds to kill 1-2 enemies. I've been using VP as an initiation tool to trap 1-3 enemies so my team can finish off the other two quickly. That's why I was comparing the two abilities in the first place. Almost all my team fights are going like this: 1) Both teams dancing around trying to get into a position where the engage is easy. 2) I see a division in the enemy team where I can isolate the dps from the rest of the team 3) I VP the dps, the rest of the team dies quickly or gets so beat up that they can't peel for the dps during the fight after the VP. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On November 10 2015 04:56 SC2John wrote: Please stop hearing only what you want to hear. I agree with the talent selection, but I think there's a possibility there's a better alternative. MVP Black went full auto Zeratul with Shadow Assault in the finals of the OGN Super League...does a sample size of 1 prove it's legitimacy as an optimized strategy? And DunkTrain DID play Tassadar on Day 1 against Dignitas (Game 1 on Cursed Hollow). Please. I was just thinking a little more about how much we've been using a one-off game to base this argument on. Let me rephrase what I meant: We can't use that game as much proof of talent choices in general because it's the only time we've seen that comp and who knows if it would work again even with refinements. I'm not convinced it would to be honest, so it seems pointless to argue for or against Static Charge based on a one-off strat. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On November 10 2015 05:16 Thezzy wrote: How important do you guys think stuns are? On one side I think they can make or break the game and I often try to get atleast Muradin or Uther in the team composition to get stuns in, hopefully both. In many games where we had double or even triple stuns the engagements can be very one sided. It can be very satisfying to get that second or third stun in onto an enemy hero and seal their fate. Then again, many games where I've played heroes such as Sylvanas, Valla, Zagara, Tyrael or even Artanis had limited stuns be still focused down heroes without much issue. I suppose there is something to be sad for plain old raw damage. Would a stun comp (say Muradin, Uther, Tyrande, Kael'Thas and Jaina for dmg) beat a similarly strong composition but with less stuns but maybe higher damage? It depends on the comp you are against. If you are dealing with a comp that has a lot of channels - ETC, Lili, Nazeebo, Sonya - stuns are incredibly effective at nullifying hugely important parts of those heroes' kits. If you stun a Nazeebo every time he uses Ravenous Spirit, for example, you are effectively rendering his heroic ability, something that can do a huge amount of damage, null and void. That, and a common way of getting a lead in games these days involves rotating in a group to pick off heroes in lane and achieve a period of free xp soak and push in that lane. Stuns prevent heroes from escaping, they stick them in one place to allow for follow up abilities, and they can cancel counter damage. Generally speaking, stuns are considered the most important form of CC right now. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 10 2015 05:40 Wuster wrote: I was just thinking a little more about how much we've been using a one-off game to base this argument on. Let me rephrase what I meant: We can't use that game as much proof of talent choices in general because it's the only time we've seen that comp and who knows if it would work again even with refinements. I'm not convinced it would to be honest, so it seems pointless to argue for or against Static Charge based on a one-off strat. THATS EXACTLY MY POINT. I'm basing my argument off of the other ~6 games played without Static Charge. It's that simple. | ||
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DBS
515 Posts
On November 10 2015 05:40 Wuster wrote: I was just thinking a little more about how much we've been using a one-off game to base this argument on. Let me rephrase what I meant: We can't use that game as much proof of talent choices in general because it's the only time we've seen that comp and who knows if it would work again even with refinements. I'm not convinced it would to be honest, so it seems pointless to argue for or against Static Charge based on a one-off strat. To be fair. C9 has apparently had a lot of scrim success with it. I even remember an NA open where tempo storm banned out murky and the commentators assumed it was just BM but now I think that they were worried about it. I'm not saying it's a new meta, but I think it probably has more substantial merit than most people, myself included originally gave it credit for. | ||
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
A new PTR patch has been uploaded to the servers. It contains all Cho'Gall data, information on new bundles and possible new skins, and more! New Bundles, Skins and Year Long Stimpack Below is a list of new bundles, with potential release dates, and new skins. There are also strings on the client that reference a 360 day stimpack! New Skins Space Leoric Great-father Winter Stitches Winter Plum Sylvanas Corruptor Cho'Gall New Mount Felstalker 360-Day Stimpack - Release Date: 11.17.2015 Second Chance Bundle - 11.17.2015 Hero - Jaina Skin - Winter Veil Jaina Hero - Rehgar Skin - Great-father Winter Rehgar Mount - ReignDeer Mount - Nazeebra Mount - Lunar Tiger Mount - Magic Carpet Ultimate Powerhouse Bundle - 11.17.2015 Hero - Sonya Skin - Wrath Sonya Hero - Diablo Skin - Murkablo Hero - Stitches Skin - Psycho Stitches Hero - Arthas Skin - Frost Wyrm Arthas Hero - Johanna Skin - Centurion Johanna Powerhouse Bundle - 11.17.2015 Hero - Sonya Skin - Wrath Sonya Hero - Stitches Skin - Psycho Stitches Hero - Diablo Skin - Murkablo BlizzCon Championship Winners Bundle - 11.17.2015 Angelic Valla skin Super Sonya skin Vrykul Leoric skin Judgement Uther skin Pajamathur (Abathur) skin | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On November 10 2015 22:24 karazax wrote: Great-father Winter Stitches Where is beach Stitches?! It's summer in Australia. | ||
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MotherFox
United States1529 Posts
On November 11 2015 01:25 Hier wrote: Where is beach Stitches?! It's summer in Australia. The Nexus is located in California, so that explains the US-centric holidays celebrated there. | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1011 Posts
Also stun is an easy way to kill heroes if your team is coordinated. Chain stun should definitely be nerfed at some point to have diminishing values for each consecutive stun. They did it in Diablo 3 (several times) and fucked up a lot of builds with the decision, I don't see why they can't do it in HotS. I don't really mind the easy kills that comes with stun, but being stunned for 3-4 seconds when you have your immunity/escape ulti or bolt up and frantically spam them but are unable to do anything is simply not fun. It's kind of like playing vs Freeze Mage in Hearthstone and just staring at the screen for a while then clicking the end turn button. | ||
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
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MotherFox
United States1529 Posts
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
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MotherFox
United States1529 Posts
On November 11 2015 03:15 karazax wrote: Relentless is an option for six heroes out of 43, so wouldn't say that's really a lot of characters. Eight heroes at least-- lili and raynor have upgraded versions of it. 18% of the character base is a lot, I would say. Not to mention cleanse being on almost every solo support in the game. (plus all the unstoppable effects--- johanna doesn't have relentless, but would she even need it?) | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On November 11 2015 02:24 karazax wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if they do rebalance stuns at some point. Chain CC was nerfed in World of Warcraft pvp. That or they add a get out of stun default ability or talent option for everyone on a semi-long cool down for everyone like WoW pvp trinkets. Same, I'm really surprised it hasn't happened yet. But then again they nerfed Cleanse and removed a bunch of unstoppable effects (rip Diablo), so maybe they like chain stuns? | ||
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