We’ve just released a new patch for Heroes of the Storm, which brings a new Hero, art and user interface updates, balance changes, and much more to the game. Maintenance is ongoing, but don't worry; we'll let you know just as soon as the Nexus is back online.
You can check out the patch notes for today’s update below. Jump to Section
New Maximum Graphic Settings for 32-bit Operating Systems
Players who do not have sufficient addressable memory to effectively run Heroes of the Storm using High or Ultra graphic settings will have their settings redetected and reset to Medium or lower upon logging in to Heroes of the Storm after downloading today’s patch.
These players will no longer be able to select graphic settings above Medium
This will primarily affect players who use 32-bit operating systems.
Please read our recent support article to learn more about this change.
New visual effects have been added which will better alert players when they are targeted by an enemy structure.
Range indicators have received visual improvements across the board and should now be much easier to distinguish across all Battleground tilesets.
Various Try Mode Battleground assets have received additional optimization to help improve load times.
A number of Mercenaries have received additional animation and effect polish.
Heroes
A unique new Egg overlay has been added for Murky. This overlay will be displayed for Murky players when they receive a reduced death timer as a result of respawning from a living Egg.
Kharazim has received various animation updates.
Uther has received updated cloth physics.
Hero Abilities
The following Hero Abilities and Talents have received additional visual polish:
Jaina – Water Elemental (R)
Kael’thas – Living Bomb (W), Gravity Lapse (E)
Murky – Slime (Q) debuff
The Butcher – Ruthless Onslaught (E), Lamb to the Slaughter (R)
Tyrael and all Tyrael Skins – Archangel’s Wrath form (Trait)
Uther and all Uther Skins – Eternal Devotion form (Trait)
Rexxar – Misha’s model has received updates.
Skins
Centurion Johanna has received updated cloth physics
The following Hero Skins have received additional visual polish for certain Abilities and Talents, which more closely match that Skin’s theme:
Players now have a chance to receive a one-question survey following Hero League, Team League, and Quick Match games.
Survey questions will ask players to give a rating from one to five stars on a variety of game-related topics.
These surveys will help us to continue making improvements to Heroes of the Storm with future updates.
In-Game UI
Buffs & Debuffs
A new Healing Fountain icon has been added to the right of the Hero portrait to indicate whether Healing Fountains are available for use, or on cooldown.
Buffs granted via Talents have been reworked, and now appear underneath the player’s Health and resource bars, to the right of the Healing Fountain icon.
Buff icons for Talents such as Seasoned Marksman, Focused Attack, Regeneration Master, etc., will also indicate the number of stacks earned.
Loading Screens
Loading Screens will now display the players on each team along the left and right edges of the screen, and include the following information:
Player name, portrait, and portrait border
Loading progress
Selected Hero for that game
Objective descriptions on Battleground Loading Screens have received visual improvements, and can now be found near the bottom-center of the screen.
Looking for Party
The Looking for Party panel will no longer list players who are marked as Away.
Replays
A new Watch with Others button has been added to the Watch tab, which will allow multiple players to view Replays together.
Clicking Watch with Others will open a replay lobby. The replay host can then invite up to 11 other players to view that replay simultaneously.
Only the host will have access to replay controls, which will determine playback for all viewers.
If the host exits the replay, another player will become host and gain access to playback controls.
Shop
The Featured Item pane in the Shop will now only be displayed on the first page of items under each Shop category.
Additionally, the mouse wheel can now be used to scroll through item pages in the Shop while the cursor is hovering over the Featured Item pane.
A.I. controlled Heroes will now select their Talents from a group of preset Talent builds.
Developer Comments: A.I. players will now choose from predetermined Talent builds instead of randomly selecting Talents. This is especially important for players who disconnect as the A.I. will now no longer randomly choose Talents, but instead try to pick builds that are closer to what players would expect. In addition, A.I. controlled Heroes in Versus A.I. games will also have their own Talent builds to choose from.
Vehicles and Regeneration Globe Interaction
Regeneration Globes will no longer heal Dragon Knights and Garden Terrors.
Instead, Regeneration Globe effects will now be applied directly to the Hero inside the Dragon Knight or Garden Terror.
Players within a Dragon Knight or Garden Terror can now also accumulate stacks for Talents such as Seasoned Marksman, Gathering Power, Regeneration Master, etc.
Summoned Unit Attacks
Summoned unit Basic Attacks will now miss if that Summon is Blinded or the target is Evading.
Summoned unit Basic Attacks will no longer consume Block Talent stacks.
The Dragon Shire and Sky Temple Battlegrounds have received several A.I. improvements.
A.I. controlled Heroes can now travel long distances more effectively, and will travel to take part in objectives from anywhere on the Battleground.
A.I. controlled Heroes will now wait near an objective until enough allies have arrived that they can commit to a team fight at that objective.
Try Mode Updates
The allied Hall of Storms has been moved much closer to the Gate.
The size of the Try Mode Battleground has been increased to accommodate a new playable area below the lane.
Siege and Bruiser Mercenary Camps have been added.
A Target Dummy has been added.
When attacking the Target Dummy, a new panel will display on-screen that will track damage per second and total damage dealt to the Dummy.
The Try Mode in-game controls have been reworked and moved to the left-hand side of the screen. Additionally, several new Try Mode controls have been added, and others have been updated:
Toggle Ally – Enable or disable Malfurion in-lane
Toggle Cooldowns – Enable to remove Ability cooldowns
Set Level – Drag the slider to select the desired level, up to 30.
Reset Talents – Click to reselect all Talents
Try Mode will now remember which settings were selected during the previous game, and will apply them when entering a new Try Mode game.
Battlefield of Eternity
Immortal
Basic Attack damage increased from 360 (+22 per minute) to 360 (+25 per minute) after 11 minutes have passed, and 360 (+30 per level) after 16 minutes
Developer Comments: Matches on Battlefield could occasionally go quite long as the Immortals weren’t scaling high enough into the late game. With this slight damage increase they’ll be more of a threat as the game progresses.
Garden of Terror
Garden Terror
Overgrowth (W)
Now also disables the enemy Core
Health now increases the longer the game progresses
Developer Comments: We didn’t like the gameplay of Garden Terrors being used defensively to slow down an enemy Garden Terror push. Now that the Overgrowth can disable the Core, it will be much less effective to defend as a Garden Terror, encouraging teams to be more offensive with their Garden Terrors.
Infernal Shrines
Punisher
Starting and scaling Health decreased by 10%
Now leap to the nearest enemy Hero within range, rather than selecting one at random
Skeletal Defenders
The amount of Skeletal Defenders required to summon a Punisher has been increased from 30 to 40.
Skeletal Defenders will no longer take increased damage from abilities and talents that deal bonus damage to minions.
The range at which Skeletal Defenders will detect and attack players has been decreased by 25%
Developer Comments: Player feedback has been centered around how hard it is to comeback when falling behind on Infernal Shrines. We agree that the Punishers are overly punishing, so we’re nerfing their Health slightly. Teams that successfully bait the Punishers deep within their base will be able to put an end to this threat sooner.
Sky Temple
Events in which all three Temples activate simultaneously will no longer occur.
Developer Comments: While the three temple event could be fun, it didn’t leave the defending team with many options. It almost always meant whoever had the advantage at that point in time could secure the majority of the temples and win the match with little for the other team to do.
Bonus damage changed from 15% of the target’s current Health to 10% of the target’s maximum Health
Lamb to the Slaughter (R)
New art has been added that will better indicate which players are affected by Lamb to the Slaughter
Developer Comments: We’d like to avoid ‘current Health’ for the Savage Charge Talent, as what players get out of this can vary wildly. Using Savage Charge against a low Health target could net less than a Basic Attack, so the damage will be much more consistent with this change.
Zeratul
Basic Attack damage reduced from 47 (+13 per level) to 47 (+12 per level)
Blink (E)
Wormhole (Talent)
Blink reactivation time reduced from 3 to 2 seconds
Void Prison (R)
Casting range reduced by 50%
Developer Comments: Zeratul is a little bit too strong, especially at competitive and tournament level play. Wormhole remains extremely powerful, but decreasing this timer from 3 to 2 seconds will give increased counter play options to the enemy team, primarily if they can disable Zeratul during this shorter time window. Void Prison remains one of the most powerful Heroics in the game, but with the decreased range, Zeratul will now likely have to use Blink or aggressive positioning to get into place for the perfect Void Prison.
Locusts will no longer spawn as soon as the game begins, and will now wait until the first Minion wave spawns
Evolve Monstrosity (R)
Pressing R with a Monstrosity active will now automatically cast Symbiote on the Monstrosity and move your camera to its position
Developer Comments: Abathur’s initial Locust would previously sit idle until Minions spawned. This change will allow Abathur to get in position before the first Locust spawns at the start of a game.
Nazeebo
Corpse Spiders (Q)
Spiders attack damage decreased from 10 (+1 per level) to 9.5 (+0.95 per level) Leaping Spiders (Talent)
Spider attack damage bonus decreased from 25% to 15%
Ravenous Spirit (R)
Vision radius granted by the Spirit increased by approximately 66%
Developer Comments: Nazeebo was dealing a little more damage than we’d like, specifically when looking at his spiders. We’ve tuned his base spiders and their leaping talent down to bring him more in line.
Shield amount decreased from 200 (+40 per level) to 150 (+30 per level)
Shield amount is now increased by 50% when cast on other allied Heroes
Mana cost reduced from 50 to 40
Cooldown reduced from 8 to 5 seconds
Leeching Plasma (Talent)
Basic Attack damage returned as Health increased from 20% to 30%
Evasive Shielding (Talent)
Movement Speed bonus duration increased from 4 to 5 seconds
Archon (R)
Reduced Archon’s Basic Attack damage from 64 (+12 per level) to 51.2 (+9.6 per level).
Developer Comments: It’s important that Tassadar players can queue for Quick Match and not be worried that they are going to cause a negative experience for their team. A Tassadar player who chooses the Support Talents will be much more viable as a Support character. We still expect Tassadar to put out smaller numbers when compared to the highest healing Supports, but with the huge amount of utility Tassadar brings, we think this is an okay trade off. The second change here targets Archon providing a little too much power; we’ve reduced some numbers to tune him appropriately. Internally, we’ve seen more Force Wall play as a result, which has been exciting.
Tyrande
Searing Arrows (Talent)
Basic Attack damage bonus increased from 40% to 50%
Shadowstalk (R)
No longer reveals enemies.
Instead, allied Heroes are now healed over 8 seconds, and then receive a large burst of healing when Shadowstalk expires
Hunter’s Prey (Talent) has been renamed to Hunter’s Swiftness
Allied Heroes no longer gain a Basic Attack damage bonus, and instead receive a 40% Movement Speed bonus for 8 seconds
Developer Comments: We think that it’s important that Tyrande has the capability to be a viable solo healer, as she might be the only Support on your team in Quick Match. Shadowstalk is generally an under-picked Heroic, so we decided to focus it more toward healing so that it can become a “support” option. Tyrande still brings less healing than some of our other Supports due to the rest of her kit, but we hope that the Shadowstalk change will bring her closer to what players expect when fulfilling the primary Support role.
Shield amount changed from 20 (+12 per level) to 33 (+10 per level)
Brew will now regenerate in increments of 5 while channeling Fortifying Brew
Keg Toss (Talent) moved from Level 7 to Level 1
Bottomless Mug (Talent) moved from Level 1 to Level 16
This Talent’s functionality has changed
Now decreases the cooldown of Fortifying Brew from 5 to 3 seconds
Combat Stance (Talent)
Shield duration after Fortifying Brew channeling ends increased from 2 to 3 seconds
New Talent (Level 1): Grounding Brew
Now decreases all incoming Ability damage by 25% while channeling Fortifying Brew
Flying Kick (Q)
Flying Kick speed increased by approximately 20%
Brew Strike (Talent)
This Talent’s functionality has changed
Now reduces Flying Kick’s cooldown by 1 second for every Hero hit by Keg Smash
Keg Smash (W)
Slow duration increased from 2.5 to 3 seconds
Full Keg (Talent) moved from Level 1 to Level 7
This Talent’s functionality has changed
Now increases Keg Smash damage and area of effect by 50%
Breath of Fire (E)
Deep Breath (Talent)
Now also reduces Breath of Fire’s Brew cost from 30 to 20
Ring of Fire (Talent)
Damage increased from 10 (+2.5 per level) to 11 (+2.75 per level)
Storm, Earth, Fire (R)
Brew cost removed
Wandering Keg (R)
Brew cost removed
Cooldown decreased from 90 to 70 seconds
Developer Comments: While we see a fair amount of Talent diversity within Chen players, we found that some of these Talents were traps, so these changes will help. We also added a bit of power into Chen’s core playstyle to help him at competitive levels.
Diablo
Black Soulstone (Trait)
Maximum Health gained per Soul increased from 0.15% to 0.2%
Essence of the Slain (Talent)
Now also grants 10 Health for each enemy slain nearby
Shadow Charge (Q)
Range increased by approximately 15%
Stun duration after knocking an enemy into a wall increased from 0.75 to 1 second
Devastating Charge (Talent)
Now reduces movement impairing effects for 6 seconds, up from 3 seconds
Fire Stomp (W)
Damage increased from 30 (+9 per level) to 33 (+10 per level)
Mana cost decreased from 50 to 40
Overpower (E)
Domination (Talent)
Cooldown reduction for Shadow Charge increased from 8 to 10 seconds
Developer Comments: The buffs to Shadow Charge should help to reinforce Diablo as the premier gank Warrior. The rest of his kit gets a little bit of love to help his overall play.
E.T.C.
Health increased from 1040 (+240 per level) to 1050 (+250 per level)
Power Slide (Q)
Stun duration increased from 1 to 1.25 seconds
Face Melt (W)
Mana cost decreased from 60 to 50
Cooldown decreased from 12 to 10 seconds
Mic Check (Talent)
Cooldown reduction increased from 4 to 5 seconds
Guitar Solo (E)
Heal amount increased from 25 (+6 per level) to 27 (+6.5 per level)
Pwn Shop Guitar (Talent)
Mana cost reduction increased from 40% to 60%
Prog Rock (Talent)
Bonus healing granted per Regeneration Globe increased from 2 to 3 Health per second.
Developer Comments: We wanted to further emphasize E.T.C.’s ability to disrupt enemies with his Face Melt and Power Slide Abilities. With these buffs, we feel he’ll fall in line as a viable main Warrior.
Johanna
Condemn (W)
Knight Takes Pawn (Talent)
Damage bonus against Minions and Mercenaries decreased from 400% to 300%
Stun duration against Minions and Mercenaries decreased from 4 to 3 seconds
Blessed Shield (R)
Stun duration decreased from 2 to 1.5 seconds for the first target struck, and decreased from 1 to 0.75 seconds for additional targets.
Radiating Faith (Talent)
No longer increases Blessed Shield range.
Now increases the stun duration to 2 seconds for the first target struck, and 1 second for additional targets
Developer Comments: Johanna is powerful right now, and we think a large part of her strength is due to her ability to quickly clear large Minion waves. We also felt that the stun duration on her Blessed Shield could be frustrating to play against during the mid-game. Players who are looking to get that extra stun duration back can elect to build into it at level 20.
Leoric
Ossein Renewal (Talent)
Now dismounts Leoric upon activation
No longer causes Leoric to pause briefly when activated while moving
Skeletal Swing (Q)
Damage decreased from 100 (+10 per level) to 85 (+8.5 per level)
Developer Comments: Leoric is too powerful right now. We’re targeting his Skeletal Swing, as we believe it does everything a little too well. The damage output for this Ability has been decreased overall, and we’ve reduced its strength at clearing Minion waves significantly.
Muradin
Haymaker (R)
Haymaker has received improvements which should help it feel more responsive to cast
Rexxar
New Ability: Misha, Fixate! (1)
“Misha, Fixate!” will have two functions, depending on its target:
If “Misha, Fixate!” is used on an enemy, Misha will move to attack the target until the target dies, a new order is issued, Misha leashes, or Misha dies
If “Misha, Fixate!” is used on the ground, Misha will move to that area and hold position until a new order is issued, Misha leashes, or Misha dies
Using "Misha, Fixate!" will automatically place Rexxar's passive into the "Misha, Follow!" state Misha retains her current behavior when issuing commands using “Misha, Follow!” (D) and “Misha, Attack!” (D)
Misha (Trait)
Misha’s leash range has been significantly increased
Misha will now hide when Rexxar is hidden in a Bush
Spirit Swoop (Q)
Bird of Prey (Talent)
Bonus damage to non-Heroic targets has been reduced from 300% to 200%.
Developer Comments: We’ve received a lot of both positive and negative feedback about Misha’s controls and wanted to offer a little more to our players without completely overhauling her current control scheme. We will continue to monitor this and may make future adjustments to Rexxar and Misha if necessary to balance for this increased level of control.
Stitches
Health increased from 1060 (+230 per level) to 1060 (+260 per level)
Block (Talent) removed
Regeneration Master (Talent) removed
Imposing Presence (Talent) removed
Stoneskin (Talent) added at Level 16
New Talent (Level 1): Dampen Magic
Every 8 seconds, gain a charge that reduces damage taken from the next incoming enemy Ability by 50%. Stores up to 2 charges.
New Talent (Level 1): Hungry for More
Collecting Regeneration Globes permanently increases maximum Health by 30
Hook (Q)
Helping Hand (Talent)
Now also reduces Hook’s cooldown by 8 seconds when pulling an ally
Slam (W)
Mana cost reduced from 45 to 40
Devour (E)
Mana cost reduced from 65 to 55
Cooldown reduced from 24 to 20 seconds
Last Bite (Talent)
Now grants cooldown reduction for enemies that are killed within 3 seconds after being damaged by Devour
Indigestion (Talent)
Retchlings now apply the effects of Vile Gas to the targets they attack
Gorge (R)
Duration increased from 3.5 to 4 seconds
Stitches’ Movement Speed is no longer reduced while using Gorge
Targets under the effect of Stitches’ Gorge will now be instantly expelled if Stitches enters Stasis (Divine Palm, Devouring Maw, Cocoon, Medivac)
Hungry Hungry Stitches (Talent)
No longer increases Gorge duration
Now increases Gorge damage by 40%
Developer Comments: We wanted to buff Stitches and position him to be more powerful against Mages. His regeneration build has been nerfed, due to the removal of Regeneration Master, but instead he now has a high Health build which also increases Devour’s effectiveness. His core kit was improved at a basic level, which will help bring him back into competitive play. Finally, we wanted to clean up the rules associated with Gorge and the level 20 upgrade, so we cut the unnecessary components of those two Abilities.
Fixed an issue that could cause a number of Heroes to fly back to their death locations after respawning if they were killed while using certain Abilities.
Players using Macs with system configurations at or below Heroes of the Storm’s minimum specifications will no longer experience excessive loading times.
During Practice Mode games, Abilities with delayed AOE damage effects will no longer continue to fire after the match is paused by accessing the Talent pane.
Art
The visual effects for Grave Golem and Sky Temple Boss Slam Abilities now more closely matches their area of effect indicators.
Battlegrounds
Skeletal Defender Health will now properly scale over time on the Infernal Shrines Battleground.
Fixed an issue that allowed Punishers to attack structures while enraged on the Infernal Shrines Battleground.
Corrected an issue that could cause Punishers to prioritize attacking enemy Structures after initially targeting a Hero.
Fixed an issue that could allow skulls to spawn outside the playable area in the Haunted Mines.
Fixed an issue that could allow A.I. controlled Garden Terrors to briefly continue casting their Abilities after death.
Heroes and Talents
Fixed a longstanding issue with Tassadar’s Twilight Archon tooltip. The Shield amounts and Damage bonus will now state a 50% increase, instead of the previous 35%. There is no gameplay impact with this change.
Fixed an issue with Stitches’ arm appearing strangely during some animations.
The Focused Attack Talent now properly uses a 10 second cooldown between bonuses to Basic Attack damage.
The Battle Momentum Talent will now properly reduce Tyrael's Sanctification cooldown.
Abathur will now properly receive Takedown credit after dealing the killing blow to Leoric.
Abathur will no longer receive Takedown credit after casting Symbiote on an allied Leoric that is then killed by the enemy team.
Abathur's Hivemind Symbiote will no longer persist on Leoric after he enters Undying form.
A Sgt. Hammer clone created by Abathur’s Ultimate Evolution will no longer be granted the Napalm Strike Heroic Ability after entering Siege Mode.
Fixed an issue that could allow Arthas’ Summon Sindragosa to be placed on reduced cooldown despite being successfully cast.
Azmodan’s movement commands are now properly interrupted when casting All Shall Burn after learning the March of Sin Talent.
Chen will no longer earn three extra Brew after casting another Ability during Fortifying Brew.
Falstad’s Hinterland Blast will no longer be placed on reduced cooldown when it is successfully cast at the same moment that Falstad is stunned by The Butcher’s Ruthless Onslaught.
Illidan's Sweeping Strike will now properly deal damage when the Immolation Talent damages the target at the same moment.
The visual effects for Johanna's Shield Glare are no longer visible through the Fog of War.
Kerrigan will no longer receive multiplicative bonuses to Shield generation after learning the Aggressive Defense and Omegastorm Talents.
Kharazim’s Overtake Talent will now properly last for its full duration.
Camera Follow will no longer cease functioning if Leoric enters Undying form in mid-air.
Leoric’s Reanimation Talent will no longer allow him to regenerate Health after picking up a Regeneration Globe while controlling a Dragon Knight or Garden Terror.
The visual and sound effects for Murky’s Octo-Grab will no longer persist if the target is killed at the same moment that the Ability is cast.
Nazeebo's Gargantuan will no longer continue to follow an enemy Leoric that has entered Undying form.
Rehgar’s Feral Lunge will no longer be reset if he is knocked back while lunging.
Sonya’s Seismic Slam, Tyrande’s Light of Elune, and Zeratul’s Cleave will no longer place the Hero’s Basic Attack on cooldown.
Stitches will no longer become briefly unresponsive after casting Hook on a target that has just died.
Fixed an issue that could prevent Tassadar's Plasma Shield with the Khala’s Embrace Talent from providing bonus Shields to Structures.
The Butcher will no longer stop his Ruthless Onslaught charge if Abathur's Ultimate Evolution clone charges the target first.
The Lost Vikings are no longer teleported back to their Hall of Storms if they would have been killed by Zagara’s Devouring Maw while in Longboat Raid! form.
Tychus's Drakken Laser Drill will no longer target Heroes while they are hidden in bushes.
Tychus’s Overkill will no longer track enemies while he is trapped by Void Prison.
Uther will no longer be teleported back to the Hall of Storms if his Redemption Talent cooldown expires while he is in Eternal Devotion form.
Sound
The voiceover for Johanna's Falling Sword and Blessed Shield abilities can no longer be heard globally.
The sound effects for Murky’s March of the Murlocs will no longer continue to play if casting is interrupted.
Allied Heroes will no longer tell Leoric to use a Healing Fountain while he is in Undying form.
User Interface
Fixed an issue affecting chat spacing and readability.
Ability and Talent icons will no longer experience clipping with button frames.
Holo Decoy status bar frames are now more visually consistent with Nova’s.
The targeting icon for Drakken Laser Drill will no longer persist on Tychus’ Ability hotbar after the drill has been destroyed.
The targeting icon for Raynor's Raiders will no longer persist on Raynor’s Ability hotbar after the Banshees have been destroyed.
Leoric’s in-game portrait will no longer switch to his Wraith Walk portrait if an enemy Leoric is killed nearby.
Changing the screenshot file format no longer causes screenshots to exhibit rendering issues.
All in all, I like these changes. I'm not sure Johanna and Leoric have been looked at in the right way - Leoric's issue isn't just his waveclear, it's how he can fill pretty much any role a tank needs to. Johanna is just too hard to kill at higher levels.
The rest is okay. It seems the Stitches change hasn't made him ridiculously OP, and it's nice to have some more utility out of Diablo, Chen and ETC. The little nerfs to Zeratul are nice, though I'm personally sad about the spiders nerf to Nazeebo as he's one of my favourite heroes to play (not sure it will stop me going for the spider build though).
The usability changes are nice and welcomed as well as the graphical updates.
One thing I don't like is the buffing of immortals/terrors (and weavers in the last patch). I don't like the ability to win a game purely on the objective. I prefer team fights and the heroes winning the game, not an AI controlled angel/demon that wins it for you.
Can't wait to try Stitches in a real game, but something I totally missed on the PTR:
"Summoned unit Basic Attacks will now miss if that Summon is Blinded or the target is Evading."
I never noticed this interaction (or lack of) before, that's a pretty big hit to Zagara. I did notice that Hydra was melting me whenever I played Illidan and this must be why.
On October 07 2015 01:19 Wuster wrote: Can't wait to try Stitches in a real game, but something I totally missed on the PTR:
"Summoned unit Basic Attacks will now miss if that Summon is Blinded or the target is Evading."
I never noticed this interaction (or lack of) before, that's a pretty big hit to Zagara. I did notice that Hydra was melting me whenever I played Illidan and this must be why.
Well spotted, but i always took it as something natural, summoned units auto attack counts as ability damage and thus cannot be evaded. But now im curious, i always assumed spell shield (or other ability damage reduction) worked on those, anybody knows?
I tried Stitches in PTR and i think all those changes together made a difference, im quite sure he is considerably better.
With buffs to other warriors, i think a nerf to Johanna's wave clear and Q damage for Leoric should be enough. But im still a bit worried about Chen (i could be wrong but his buff was really small as far as i can tell) and Tyrael (i really like him and he got no cake).
Oh ya, Tyrael is 4k now, I will definitely be picking him up now too.
Only change he got was a bug fix for Battle Momentum not effecting Sanctification, interesting. People are starting to use him for supreme zoning with Sanc and Holy Ground, will this push that style further?
Quite good changes, I am just worried about Tyrande as she is already really strong hero when played correctly and together with another stunner, now she will probably become tier 1 first ban/pick material.
Buffs to Diablo probably are not enough and he is still bad. His trait definitely needs a rework.
Yeah his trait is bad. Maybe since he is the Soulstone king maybe when he respawns his trait lets him respawn on any ally. Similar to him constantly coming back via soulstones he impales people with.
"In addition, those who have pre-purchased a digital copy of Legacy of the Void will gain exclusive access to Artanis starting October 20 PDT, a full week before he is available for sale on October 27. "
"In addition, those who have pre-purchased a digital copy of Legacy of the Void will gain exclusive access to Artanis starting October 20 PDT, a full week before he is available for sale on October 27. "
Sweet. Hopefully he shows up on PTR next week. I can't wait to take him for a spin.
Stim Drone confirmed crazy OP. I highly suggest trying it out with heroes like Illidan and full auto Zeratul (with Shadow Assault) ^^. I was able to melt an entire team with Thrall, Chen, and Azmodan with Zeratul in less than 10 seconds.
I had a game tonight where my team yelled at me for wanting to do a support when someone else first picked tass. I relented and went KT instead, and we eventually won(though I suspect it's more because the other team was terrible)...still, tass's shields didn't feel like enough from a support. Our team was constantly having to b back to base after every single engage.
Love the new splash screen, except for it revealing the HL rank of players on both teams. I just get a knot in my stomach when I see the entire enemy team being 10-15 ranks higher than every member of my team. It would be better to just not know IMO
Loading screen is awesome! Tried Tyrande in a couple of qm's as main healer, the teams have been funky. Still the ultimate heal is slooow. It may be good, need to play with it more.
Im excited about the Stitches changes, but i already have 4 warriors. Maybe my Diablo will see abit more play, eventhough people doesn't seem to think he's gotten enough. Then again i remember people saying the same about the changes to Raynor...
On October 07 2015 15:00 MotherFox wrote: How do people feel about Tassadar now?
I had a game tonight where my team yelled at me for wanting to do a support when someone else first picked tass. I relented and went KT instead, and we eventually won(though I suspect it's more because the other team was terrible)...still, tass's shields didn't feel like enough from a support. Our team was constantly having to b back to base after every single engage.
He cannot heal. The shields are amazing but i suspect he still is better in double support.
Tassadar himself is better (on average) imo, but its more awkward to fit him into a composition since he lost some damage. Before you could play double support with tass and lose no damage output.
For solo healing shields only is problematic, its useless out of combat and cannot bring someone too low back into shape. In other words, shields help a lot too, but its not the same as healing.
On October 07 2015 15:00 MotherFox wrote: How do people feel about Tassadar now?
I had a game tonight where my team yelled at me for wanting to do a support when someone else first picked tass. I relented and went KT instead, and we eventually won(though I suspect it's more because the other team was terrible)...still, tass's shields didn't feel like enough from a support. Our team was constantly having to b back to base after every single engage.
Little anecdote:
So in Korea, Zeratul's main build started changing quite a bit 2-3 weeks ago where people were taking Stoneskin at level 16 to make sure he stayed alive during fights against the tankier people while still retaining his damage from earlier talents. However, the big downside to this was that it was only shields, and once Zeratul got low, he got low and had to back or wait for heals. So people started picking First Aid at level 7 again and getting Rending Cleave at 16 to make up for his lack of damage, and this idea also carried over to the EU Championship. So what does this mean?
Health >>>>> Shields.
For that reason, I don't think Tassadar will ever be able to solo support, and will always need to be paired with some kind of healer in order to get the full effect. Unfortunately, with his Archon damage axed, I'm not sure how useful he'll be in the future unless running him with a carry composition (which may happen now that Stim Drone is in the game). It's a shame, because I've always liked him, but he keeps getting less and less fun to play .
- Loading screen is awesome. - Stop playing Morales in HL when you have it since today! He was in all 3 games I played today, and he lost all 3 games (luckily I had him only once on my team). The guy was level 3 with Morales! This should not be allowed. - Stitches is OP. My friend used him and we crushed the other team. - Leoric is still OP. I went 18 / 1 with him and we crushed them on mines. - ETC just won't die, I went 8 / 0 into late game and then we were so ahead that my team started taking all the stupid risks ever and we lost. In the end I died twice but it's bad being the tank when your allies are always dead late game. - Diablo still sucks, we pawned him. - Tassadar felt strong but he was on the losing team so it's hard to judge.
Dude, german voicepack for real life sucks too, what did you expect ? ;-D
On a more serious note, we should all put english for language as it makes communication more smooth. If I let my game in french I'd talk people about how I want to heal with Luisaile (Brightwing) or push with Bourbie (Murky). Noone understands at all. ^^
On October 07 2015 15:00 MotherFox wrote: How do people feel about Tassadar now?
I had a game tonight where my team yelled at me for wanting to do a support when someone else first picked tass. I relented and went KT instead, and we eventually won(though I suspect it's more because the other team was terrible)...still, tass's shields didn't feel like enough from a support. Our team was constantly having to b back to base after every single engage.
He cannot heal. The shields are amazing but i suspect he still is better in double support.
Tassadar himself is better (on average) imo, but its more awkward to fit him into a composition since he lost some damage. Before you could play double support with tass and lose no damage output.
For solo healing shields only is problematic, its useless out of combat and cannot bring someone too low back into shape. In other words, shields help a lot too, but its not the same as healing.
Maybe Tassadar Tyrande is awesome now.
I played a pair of Tassadar games last night. Once with a Malfurion and I couldn't even top 20k healing on Garden. I have no idea what was going on. And of course Archon felt terrible. We had a Thrall on our team and I thought I'd be chasing him around to shield him, but he still got blown up plenty and I had no damage to help out.
Second game we had Sonya, Tyrande, Hammer, Valla and the new shield was just so OP on Sonya. She could dive and re-engage just about whenever she wanted. I beat the Tyrande (going Shadowstalk) out on healing too. That's basically what I thought the new Tassadar was going to be good for (pocket healer for hard engage heroes) and so far that's how it worked out in practice.
Shields overall are a buff I feel. Tassadar never relied on self-shielding to stay alive. I think the e build will be more prevalent now and at lvl 7 he still has 3 good choices. It's just everything else still sucks. His damage outside Archon is pitiful and with it's nothing special in Archon either. Oh and shielding buildings got nerfed which I believe was unintentional, but crappy nonetheless.
I was watching Khaldor's stream today and the people playing had a different take on the Butcher + Falstad combo. Now that Stitches is viable they were doing hook/gorge + mighty gust to completely secure the kill basically everywhere on the map.
On October 08 2015 01:19 Tenks wrote: I was watching Khaldor's stream today and the people playing had a different take on the Butcher + Falstad combo. Now that Stitches is viable they were doing hook/gorge + mighty gust to completely secure the kill basically everywhere on the map.
Why bother with the Gorge? Can't you just Gust while the target is flying on the Hook? I guess the timing is really tricky there.
On October 08 2015 01:19 Tenks wrote: I was watching Khaldor's stream today and the people playing had a different take on the Butcher + Falstad combo. Now that Stitches is viable they were doing hook/gorge + mighty gust to completely secure the kill basically everywhere on the map.
Why bother with the Gorge? Can't you just Gust while the target is flying on the Hook? I guess the timing is really tricky there.
If you land a fishing hook I'd imagine the team is too far away to gust. So the gorge locks the target in place for a bit letting the enemies approach and you just gust them away. Not to mention it would take a ton of coordination to gust while he's on the hook. Could be useful in comp play but I think the gorge + gust combo is viable even in hero league.
Not that this already worked since the cleanse nerf . People are way to driven by buffs and nerfs, so balance fuckups like this patch happen to frequently. And I don't mean stitches alone.
I still think VP will be the go-to but it isn't completely impossible to counter now. You can see the ripple coming and know he's trying to set up a VP instead of executing it outside of sight range. I like they way they went about Zera's nerf.
On October 08 2015 04:17 Ej_ wrote: wow I played 2 games on Zera today and the VP nerf is pretty big. You have to be at like melee range to land it properly.
which makes me sad because now there will be more people justifying their shadow assault pick
Who cares? Stim Droned Zeratul with Shadow Assault is unstoppable :O.
Have to say, I love new Infernal Shrines. From my experience it favors compositions that me and my team love to play(bruisers, diving, fighting...) a lot more than before. You have to fight the enemy team instead of just zoning them out or using few spells to kill the summons when they pop and then disengage. Johanna is still good because of Condemn, even if she isn't killing them she makes it easier for your team, but Leoric pretty much disappeared from the map.
Played it only once so far in a team league and we absolutely crushed them. They went for more balanced composition(Brightwing, ETC, Valla, Kael'Thas and Zeratul) while we had Uther, Johanna, Kerrigan, Tyrande and Butcher. It was a massacre.
One thing I really liked this patch is the ability to watch replays with others. That will change the whole game level in terms of team league. I know my team and I have been dying to try and watch replays together to learn from our mistakes and improve ourselves overall together as a team.
On October 08 2015 22:51 Tenks wrote: Sonya may need a nerf but she feels so much more natural and enjoyable to play now
How would you explain it ? All the old warriors got buffed, and Johanna / Leoric were slightly nerfed so they're still very strong. It's a real question, no offense or sarcasm or whatever you call it. I also felt her a bit strong but I don't understand why.
On October 08 2015 22:51 Tenks wrote: Sonya may need a nerf but she feels so much more natural and enjoyable to play now
How would you explain it ? All the old warriors got buffed, and Johanna / Leoric were slightly nerfed so they're still very strong. It's a real question, no offense or sarcasm or whatever you call it. I also felt her a bit strong but I don't understand why.
i think she is definitley not too strong. She can shine on maps with long, drawn out Teamfights or as a jungler cause she basically has selfsustain which is her strongest point. She is one of the best 1v1 heroes atm. Her weak point is, like all melee assassins, ofc the CC. But in Sonyas case, roots and slow are not as effective, stuns however means almost certain death.
Since the whole meta shifted too longer fights and more sustain, Sonya is one of the better heroes now
Any comments on Chen? Personally, I don't think the buff addressed the issues Chen has. Haven't played a lot though, so maybe I just didn't go for the real build for the current patch.
And I'm a little confused about the medic. In Hero League matches, where most teams just lack perfect communication and coordination, she seems insanely strong. But I'd assume in Team League matches she's just being burst down all day every day and dies almost immediately. And for the Heroic: Does the opponent see the target position of the Medivac? Because I haven't noticed it yet and I feel like, in a long drawn out games with an open core, it's really hard to counter the presence of a Medivac. I know that you get the warning, but that doesn't really help if you don't know if they're flying to an objective or directly towards your core. Yesterday I felt like it was a pure 50/50 chance to decide whether you want to give up the objective (-> and defend the core against an attack that might not be coming. Which might be game ending, depending on the map objective) or give up on the core (-> and risk to lose the game because by the time you see the Medivac flying, it's too late to port back). But maybe I was just stupid. That's just what happened to us yesterday :-P
Chen's mechanics are the issue. There isn't that much place for a hero who spends half the time standing still and drinking. Like an alcoholic father. At times he seems strong, but most of the time he just isn't wanted in the family.
You have to focus Morales first, moreso than any other healer imo. She's very squishy and can't heal herself in combat. Take Morales out of the equation and a teamfight is much easier. At later levels the sustain she gives to heroes is just crazy.
As for the heroic, I'm unsure how competitive medivac will be. A co-ordinated team should be able to anticipate and respond to it. It's fun though. Stim is too good to pass up if you have an appropriate hero imo. Otherwise she's just using her medivac to fly to heroes in need like Brightwing, only not shit.
The thing I realized very quickly with Morales is most heroes even teams cannot burst through Safeguard + Healing Beam. If they idiotically try them they're just going to lose.
Now you would think the obvious answer would be to focus Morales, but most people just start hitting random targets (like the tank... always the tank).
In one of the games I played, I just followed Sonya in as she obliterated their front line causing the team to run for cover. So even though we didn't do a great job focusing Morales first their team just ended up out of position for our assassins to pick off (plus random hits on Morales scare her *a lot*). That seemed to work ok. I'm sure over time people will get the memo that you have to go for Morales first though.
On October 09 2015 01:03 Wuster wrote: The thing I realized very quickly with Morales is most heroes even teams cannot burst through Safeguard + Healing Beam. If they idiotically try them they're just going to lose.
Now you would think the obvious answer would be to focus Morales, but most people just start hitting random targets (like the tank... always the tank).
In one of the games I played, I just followed Sonya in as she obliterated their front line causing the team to run for cover. So even though we didn't do a great job focusing Morales first their team just ended up out of position for our assassins to pick off (plus random hits on Morales scare her *a lot*). That seemed to work ok. I'm sure over time people will get the memo that you have to go for Morales first though.
Well, there is the other solution: do enough damage until the Medic runs out of mana. She doesn't have any mana talents like Conjurer's Pursuit and she runs low on mana really quickly during team fights, so if you can poke for long enough, she will run out of mana and be unable to stop all-ins pretty well. The biggest weakness I've come across with friends is just that in long, drawn out battles, Medic tends to fizzle out after a certain point, so just make the battles longer and you're good.
As for dealing with "protect the tank" compositions with Medic, I have no idea how to deal with that other than an epic flank to annihilate the Medic.
Any comments on Chen? Personally, I don't think the buff addressed the issues Chen has. Haven't played a lot though, so maybe I just didn't go for the real build for the current patch.
True, they just kind of juggled his talent tree. However imo the Regen build is the only one thats good on Chen. So the only real buff you're taking advantage of using that build is the increased shielding.
In one of the games I played, I just followed Sonya in as she obliterated their front line causing the team to run for cover.
I Love Sonya my best and highest leveled hero. Though yeah she may infact now be too powerful. Potentially scary line up that could occur Sonya, Morales, with Tassadar. Typically when i build Sonya i go for pretty much every talent that makes me have better survive ability.
Though with those two supporting her.. you could be greedy and take talents to skyrocket dmg. Endless Fury, Critical hits, Follow Through / Poison Spear, Wrath, Mystic Spear, Furious Blow, Nexus Blades. Plus Stim drone. insanity.
Illidan too could benefit from the new Tass and Morales.
On October 09 2015 01:03 Wuster wrote: The thing I realized very quickly with Morales is most heroes even teams cannot burst through Safeguard + Healing Beam. If they idiotically try them they're just going to lose.
Now you would think the obvious answer would be to focus Morales, but most people just start hitting random targets (like the tank... always the tank).
In one of the games I played, I just followed Sonya in as she obliterated their front line causing the team to run for cover. So even though we didn't do a great job focusing Morales first their team just ended up out of position for our assassins to pick off (plus random hits on Morales scare her *a lot*). That seemed to work ok. I'm sure over time people will get the memo that you have to go for Morales first though.
Well, there is the other solution: do enough damage until the Medic runs out of mana. She doesn't have any mana talents like Conjurer's Pursuit and she runs low on mana really quickly during team fights, so if you can poke for long enough, she will run out of mana and be unable to stop all-ins pretty well. The biggest weakness I've come across with friends is just that in long, drawn out battles, Medic tends to fizzle out after a certain point, so just make the battles longer and you're good.
As for dealing with "protect the tank" compositions with Medic, I have no idea how to deal with that other than an epic flank to annihilate the Medic.
This is true, the game I was talking about was also Infernal Shrines, the long period spent fighting over spiders (40 spiders is quite a noticeable difference btw, I like it) seemed to get to Morales and she ran out of steam quite often. Is there a switching cost for retargetting her Q? I know that it costs no mana when channeled on a full-hp target, which is one of those tricks for buffing people/activating Couples Therapy 'for free'.
@Cyanocyst I was in fact Tassadar that game too (we also had a Tyrande).
The thing I realized very quickly with Morales is most heroes even teams cannot burst through Safeguard + Healing Beam. If they idiotically try them they're just going to lose.
Now you would think the obvious answer would be to focus Morales, but most people just start hitting random targets (like the tank... always the tank).
In one of the games I played, I just followed Sonya in as she obliterated their front line causing the team to run for cover. So even though we didn't do a great job focusing Morales first their team just ended up out of position for our assassins to pick off (plus random hits on Morales scare her *a lot*). That seemed to work ok. I'm sure over time people will get the memo that you have to go for Morales first though.
Well, there is the other solution: do enough damage until the Medic runs out of mana. She doesn't have any mana talents like Conjurer's Pursuit and she runs low on mana really quickly during team fights, so if you can poke for long enough, she will run out of mana and be unable to stop all-ins pretty well. The biggest weakness I've come across with friends is just that in long, drawn out battles, Medic tends to fizzle out after a certain point, so just make the battles longer and you're good.
As for dealing with "protect the tank" compositions with Medic, I have no idea how to deal with that other than an epic flank to annihilate the Medic.
This is true, the game I was talking about was also Infernal Shrines, the long period spent fighting over spiders (40 spiders is quite a noticeable difference btw, I like it) seemed to get to Morales and she ran out of steam quite often. Is there a switching cost for retargetting her Q? I know that it costs no mana when channeled on a full-hp target, which is one of those tricks for buffing people/activating Couples Therapy 'for free'.
@Cyanocyst I was in fact Tassadar that game too (we also had a Tyrande).
Lol Tyrande too! Thought about mentioning her too. Though didn't know if that was too much invested in to pushing one player to carry. Did you take the new shadow Stalk for some ult healing?
Btw Next time run Rehgar with that comp, with bloodlust just for lols.
Any comments on Chen? Personally, I don't think the buff addressed the issues Chen has. Haven't played a lot though, so maybe I just didn't go for the real build for the current patch.
True, they just kind of juggled his talent tree. However imo the Regen build is the only one thats good on Chen. So the only real buff you're taking advantage of using that build is the increased shielding.
In one of the games I played, I just followed Sonya in as she obliterated their front line causing the team to run for cover.
I Love Sonya my best and highest leveled hero. Though yeah she may infact now be too powerful. Potentially scary line up that could occur Sonya, Morales, with Tassadar. Typically when i build Sonya i go for pretty much every talent that makes me have better survive ability.
Though with those two supporting her.. you could be greedy and take talents to skyrocket dmg. Endless Fury, Critical hits, Follow Through / Poison Spear, Wrath, Mystic Spear, Furious Blow, Nexus Blades. Plus Stim drone. insanity.
Illidan too could benefit from the new Tass and Morales.
I played a QM game last night where the opposing team seemingly didn't get the memo that Sonya can put out some of the highest damage if left alone. They like weren't ever hitting me. So I went all-in on damage and my god I was just wrecking the entire game. Like I'd hook onto the Monk and within 3 slams he was dead. It was amazing.
Any comments on Chen? Personally, I don't think the buff addressed the issues Chen has. Haven't played a lot though, so maybe I just didn't go for the real build for the current patch.
True, they just kind of juggled his talent tree. However imo the Regen build is the only one thats good on Chen. So the only real buff you're taking advantage of using that build is the increased shielding.
In one of the games I played, I just followed Sonya in as she obliterated their front line causing the team to run for cover.
I Love Sonya my best and highest leveled hero. Though yeah she may infact now be too powerful. Potentially scary line up that could occur Sonya, Morales, with Tassadar. Typically when i build Sonya i go for pretty much every talent that makes me have better survive ability.
Though with those two supporting her.. you could be greedy and take talents to skyrocket dmg. Endless Fury, Critical hits, Follow Through / Poison Spear, Wrath, Mystic Spear, Furious Blow, Nexus Blades. Plus Stim drone. insanity.
Illidan too could benefit from the new Tass and Morales.
But Sonya won't benefit that much from stim drone, her autos do a lot of damage when talented but there is a lot of ability damage and if you whirlwind with stim drone its a bit of a waste.
Anyway, i just played a game with Morales Sonya Tassadar and i she went ham. Too ham and died a lot, but not before wreacking havoc. Its a strong combo. Shame we had no auto attackers for the drone, medic just gave it to Sonya. However, the other team had Tassadar Morales Raynor, and that is sick.
We won the game, but with a heavy PvE style on Battlefield of eternity, i even took force wall to not fight. Rest of our team was Murky Gazlowe.
@Slydie: Nazeebo is still decent, more than that imo. The strongest got a really small nerf and are still in a better spot than Chen. Mura Arthas Anub and Tyrael got no nerfs and imo are still ahead of him. ETC Stitches and Diablo got nice (probably even better) buffs. That leaves Chen on top bottom. I guess he can be a niche pick if you are good with him. That is really just my opinion, based on insuficient experiece since the patch, but im quite sure he is not tier 1.
Any comments on Chen? Personally, I don't think the buff addressed the issues Chen has. Haven't played a lot though, so maybe I just didn't go for the real build for the current patch.
True, they just kind of juggled his talent tree. However imo the Regen build is the only one thats good on Chen. So the only real buff you're taking advantage of using that build is the increased shielding.
In one of the games I played, I just followed Sonya in as she obliterated their front line causing the team to run for cover.
I Love Sonya my best and highest leveled hero. Though yeah she may infact now be too powerful. Potentially scary line up that could occur Sonya, Morales, with Tassadar. Typically when i build Sonya i go for pretty much every talent that makes me have better survive ability.
Though with those two supporting her.. you could be greedy and take talents to skyrocket dmg. Endless Fury, Critical hits, Follow Through / Poison Spear, Wrath, Mystic Spear, Furious Blow, Nexus Blades. Plus Stim drone. insanity.
Illidan too could benefit from the new Tass and Morales.
But Sonya won't benefit that much from stim drone, her autos do a lot of damage when talented but there is a lot of ability damage and if you whirlwind with stim drone its a bit of a waste.
Anyway, i just played a game with Morales Sonya Tassadar and i she went ham. Too ham and died a lot, but not before wreacking havoc. Its a strong combo. Shame we had no auto attackers for the drone, medic just gave it to Sonya. However, the other team had Tassadar Morales Raynor, and that is sick.
We won the game, but with a heavy PvE style on Battlefield of eternity, i even took force wall to not fight. Rest of our team was Murky Gazlowe.
Man Sonya benefits crazy from increased auto attack. More autos means more rage which means more slams.
Ok so I think Medic with Medivac makes split pushing possibly viable now. Something like this:
Medic Abathur Sonya Arthas Jaina
Medic goes medivac. Abathur goes mines. Abathur makes sure you have vision to know where almost everyone is on the map. Your team just tries to avoid fighting for the longest time (but even with that team comp it isn't like they're completely inept at fights) and you just scoot your ass away with the medivac. Like on Cursed you foot it to the bottom lane to push it. With Abathur mines you notice they're rotating down. You load the party bus up and rocket up to top lane. Abathur has mines still to see if they chase upwards. You get whatever damage you can get done up there then just foot it away and basically repeat that process the entire game.
On October 09 2015 04:10 Wuster wrote: Not to mention she can have trouble sometimes catching people while WW-ing, so +25% movespeed is good.
She shouldn't :O. Her trait gives her move speed for 4 seconds, so if she even taps someone with Whirlwind, she will always stay in range and in fact overtake them slightly. In any case, you shouldn't be using it unless you're taking damage, as autos + slams will always do more damage ^^.
Sure, she gets more rage, and the speed helps a lot (Sonya is part of my try hard roster too). That Sonya was no good so maybe it gave me a mistaken impression.
I don't think you are out of your mind but it sounds like something for Cursed Hollow, if other team reacts decently in other maps, i believe it won't be too powerful. Many maps are either too small or have super strong objectives. Other concern is having a decent early game to hold on till the medivac plan is possible. Your team should be good enough.
On October 09 2015 04:31 Superbanana wrote: Sure, she gets more rage, and the speed helps a lot (Sonya is part of my try hard roster too). That Sonya was no good so i maybe it gave me a mistaken impression.
I don't think you are out of your mind but it sounds like something for Cursed Hollow, if other team reacts decently in other maps, i believe it won't be too powerful. Many maps are either too small or have super strong objectives. Other concern is having a decent early game to hold on till the medivac plan is possible. Your team should be good enough.
Yeah the early game is why I stuck in Sonya and Jaina. Although Abathur won't be getting Overload at 4 his hats still do work with Sonya. Jaina, IMO, is one of the best early game fighters in the game. Same with Arthas who is also in there for Syndragosa (spelling is butchered) and also a decent early game. So I don't feel like the team would be completely crippled by early game team fights over objectives.
On October 09 2015 04:10 Wuster wrote: Not to mention she can have trouble sometimes catching people while WW-ing, so +25% movespeed is good.
She shouldn't :O. Her trait gives her move speed for 4 seconds, so if she even taps someone with Whirlwind, she will always stay in range and in fact overtake them slightly. In any case, you shouldn't be using it unless you're taking damage, as autos + slams will always do more damage ^^.
Maybe I lag or this was part of the responsiveness issues they addressed. But whenever I start WW I generally stand there for half beat while they start running. Plus knockbacks and mobility skills exist =p. Come to think of it I could improve my Sonya play a lot by cancelling WW when I don't need it / am out of range so need to Ancient Spear re-engage.
I tend to not use WW all that much as Sonya unless the team clusters up a bunch or I really need some healing ASAP. I really only use it to clear waves. I generally get more value out of just auto attacks and slam but I also build for that playstyle.
Actually if you trust your Medic you can take Warpaint. Don't need the extra rage with the stim drone and you survive a bit longer.
And WW is just for removing your collision model. Slam has become way to good.
Unless you run into a level 16 hammer trap with stim drone. Then nothing saves your team. Got the Healer before they even reacted another dropped while they thought it was just me 2 when they tried to get out of range. But yeah they facechecked a bush being 1 talent behind ... Stim drone on Hammer is scary.
So have people been having any luck with morales on their team? I've been batting a long string of losses when I play her, and I notice that her heroleague stats are pretty abysmal, even though it's a bit early for those to be relevant.
On October 09 2015 06:12 MotherFox wrote: So have people been having any luck with morales on their team? I've been batting a long string of losses when I play her, and I notice that her heroleague stats are pretty abysmal, even though it's a bit early for those to be relevant.
She depends a lot on your and enemy heroes. She seems great, but it's not a healer for every situation.
So far played only team league, but won every game with her and against her. Whenever we saw enemy picking Morales we took heroes that can dive to her, so in that game we had Uther, Tyrande and Stitches, and after enemy has picked Morales we took Arthas and Kerrigan. We had a bit rougher early game but from the moment we started to focus down Morales and Kael'Thas we snowballed out of control. Enemy team had Morales, Kael'Thas, Johanna, Leoric and Butcher. They tried Stim Drone on Butcher combo, but poor Butchy got 2 Shrink Rays to the face whenever he came close.
On the other hand, whenever enemy didn't have some sort of diving composition, but more of balanced or sustain composition, we took her with really good sustain heroes and they couldn't win those fights. Even when they've managed to kill Morales 2-3 of them died to get to her and fights were won easily. Last game we had Tassadar, Morales, Butcher, Tyrael and Muradin against Rehgar, Kael'Thas, Falstad, Chen and Anub'Arak. Nobody was dying on our team, literally. I was mostly the focus target(Butcher) and when they try to kill me I get Tassadar's shield, Morales' shield, her healing, I start hitting stuff with Butcher's Brand on them and get healing here and there from Victuals talent while I deal a shitton of damage. Even when they try to get to her, they have to go through 3 of tanky heroes with a lot of sustain and through a lot of Tassadar's shield.
She can heal alone, but if enemy can get to her easily, you will probably need Tassadar or Tyrande to support with her.
Btw, MVP.Black and MVP.Sky played against YL today, and all of the games had healer + Tassadar/Tyrande(unless they are banned), it will probably become the new meta together with bruisers, as there is just too much sustain and just enough damage for enemy to be able to do anything with just one healer. Morales was picked quite a bit there too.
Morales heals more then the average tank can take hits. Making Ilidan/Sonya/Valla into a tank on steroids is usually a lot better then a tank itself. Your team needs a plan to deal with Morales at Hero select stage(silence, hard CC, mass AOE, dive comp, etc) because otherwise she can easily win games against uncoordinated heroes.
I am loving the buff to Tyrande's ultimate... really really good
The New Falstad Pirate skin will make Falstad so much better. Played a botgame to finish dailies, since I wanted to focus on playing Morales. And suddenly a Falstad landing Icon appeared next to me(make this a pirate symbol for that skin Blizzard). Then a giant bright red thing landed there and my first instict was to flee. Best skin for suicidal Falstad.
And not surprised that Koreans play Morales + a semi support. They seem to be all about surviving and winning by letting the other side make a mistake.
Stun counters Morales pretty well though. Thrall ult ftw. Diving her is pretty hard if she doesn't go super greedy on her heal talents. Don't think a team managed to dive me sofar without losing more heroes. I mean if you are low you just ult and get a second hp bar lol.
Morales is pretty much Lili. But instead of running faster, she is tanky as hell.
For the record, I think Stitches still sucks. He got a huge buff in stacking health, making him a lot better against bursty compositions, but with battles moving more towards long sustain fights and heroes like Raynor, Hammer, and even Falstad emerging, stacking health really doesn't help all that much. Also, he's practically useless in team fights still :/. I've only played him a few times in games, but he's definitely not a worthy tank, even after the nerfs to Johanna and Leoric.
I took him yesterday because they had already picked Hammer and KT. Despite Giant Killer, Hammer still gets owned hard by hook and the natural synergy with his E makes Giant Killer less of a liability IMO.
It was just one game, the next dps took Falstad to counter me but he wasn't very good (also tried to get cute with Mighty Gust to blow us off tributes) so I can't gauge how effective that was.
Everything he has just synergizes so well. Hungry For More, Amp Healing, reduced 'e' cooldown / mana are obvious. But then reduced 'e' also means Savor the Flavor stacks higher too.
It was just one game though, and hook is still a game breaking talent - KT chasing your team in the jungle after tribute fight? Hook him up to your gates!
Looking at the patch I didn't think it was enough for him, but others were hyped and I love Stitches so will keep trying him out.
Edit: Also redditors are in love with Dampen Magic, even arguing how good tanks eat Jaina / KT's burst all the time.
Stitches can still eat a whole team and have Sonya burst each one of them done before the next one is out. He just got better at what he does. Which is something many try to avoid. But since Blizzard made objectives more of a killer, failing a hook is really punishing. Punisher map is Stitches Forcewall playgorund though.
On October 10 2015 03:10 SC2John wrote: For the record, I think Stitches still sucks. He got a huge buff in stacking health, making him a lot better against bursty compositions, but with battles moving more towards long sustain fights and heroes like Raynor, Hammer, and even Falstad emerging, stacking health really doesn't help all that much. Also, he's practically useless in team fights still :/. I've only played him a few times in games, but he's definitely not a worthy tank, even after the nerfs to Johanna and Leoric.
Any other thoughts?
All my experience comes from team league so it might be a little different than yours(if you are talking about QM and/or HL) but yesterday we had a game where friend had 9000+ HP with Stitches around 27th minute IIRC. He doesn't suck at all in my opinion, and his hook is still as game breaking as ever, it is just that now if you miss a hook(or if they engage you) he isn't completely useless. Buff to Last Bite and cd reduction on his Devour talent also gives him enormous sustain if fights are happening near minion waves, or if there are some weak summoned units.
I don't know what do you think that they should be doing with him, his hook is one of the strongest abilities in the game and as such they really can't experiment much with him. Nerfing his tankiness while buffing his damage might cause serious problems.
On October 10 2015 03:10 SC2John wrote: For the record, I think Stitches still sucks. He got a huge buff in stacking health, making him a lot better against bursty compositions, but with battles moving more towards long sustain fights and heroes like Raynor, Hammer, and even Falstad emerging, stacking health really doesn't help all that much. Also, he's practically useless in team fights still :/. I've only played him a few times in games, but he's definitely not a worthy tank, even after the nerfs to Johanna and Leoric.
Any other thoughts?
All my experience comes from team league so it might be a little different than yours(if you are talking about QM and/or HL) but yesterday we had a game where friend had 9000+ HP with Stitches around 27th minute IIRC. He doesn't suck at all in my opinion, and his hook is still as game breaking as ever, it is just that now if you miss a hook(or if they engage you) he isn't completely useless. Buff to Last Bite and cd reduction on his Devour talent also gives him enormous sustain if fights are happening near minion waves, or if there are some weak summoned units.
I don't know what do you think that they should be doing with him, his hook is one of the strongest abilities in the game and as such they really can't experiment much with him. Nerfing his tankiness while buffing his damage might cause serious problems.
I guess my issue is that everything seems to ride on getting a good hook or not, and that feels a little gimmicky to me. It means that any composition with Stitches becomes a pick composition because he simply can't engage all that well compared to tanks that can dive the back line and dish out actually threatening damage. In any case, playing against him seems like an elaborate game of "make sure you don't get hooked"; if you can do that, he's really meh.
On playing nova a lot the last few nights, I've come to the decision that the monk's reveal on his Q is mostly for zeratul, not nova. Even then, it might only be good before wormhole.
It just seems mundane to hold my distance for a few secs.
On October 10 2015 03:10 SC2John wrote: For the record, I think Stitches still sucks. He got a huge buff in stacking health, making him a lot better against bursty compositions, but with battles moving more towards long sustain fights and heroes like Raynor, Hammer, and even Falstad emerging, stacking health really doesn't help all that much. Also, he's practically useless in team fights still :/. I've only played him a few times in games, but he's definitely not a worthy tank, even after the nerfs to Johanna and Leoric.
Any other thoughts?
All my experience comes from team league so it might be a little different than yours(if you are talking about QM and/or HL) but yesterday we had a game where friend had 9000+ HP with Stitches around 27th minute IIRC. He doesn't suck at all in my opinion, and his hook is still as game breaking as ever, it is just that now if you miss a hook(or if they engage you) he isn't completely useless. Buff to Last Bite and cd reduction on his Devour talent also gives him enormous sustain if fights are happening near minion waves, or if there are some weak summoned units.
I don't know what do you think that they should be doing with him, his hook is one of the strongest abilities in the game and as such they really can't experiment much with him. Nerfing his tankiness while buffing his damage might cause serious problems.
I guess my issue is that everything seems to ride on getting a good hook or not, and that feels a little gimmicky to me. It means that any composition with Stitches becomes a pick composition because he simply can't engage all that well compared to tanks that can dive the back line and dish out actually threatening damage. In any case, playing against him seems like an elaborate game of "make sure you don't get hooked"; if you can do that, he's really meh.
I think the same can be said for a lot of heroes though. Like, Kerrigan is pretty ineffective if you can't land her combo, but can be devastating if you can hit her combo. Same with Stitches - if you can land great hooks, he can be awesome. If not, he's mediocre in other aspects.
On October 10 2015 10:27 MotherFox wrote: On playing nova a lot the last few nights, I've come to the decision that the monk's reveal on his Q is mostly for zeratul, not nova. Even then, it might only be good before wormhole.
It just seems mundane to hold my distance for a few secs.
I'm convinced it's a bad talent now. I used to use it in order to counter stealth, but the reveal is just too small to actually be effective, and it doesn't make sense to use it to get vision in an area by wasting a 12 second cooldown. Protective Shield and Healing Ward are just much better options. I've played around with getting Clairvoyance at level 7 to deal with stealth, and it's much more effective than Foresight, but you do sacrifice a lot of healing by skipping out on Echo of Heaven.
On October 10 2015 03:10 SC2John wrote: For the record, I think Stitches still sucks. He got a huge buff in stacking health, making him a lot better against bursty compositions, but with battles moving more towards long sustain fights and heroes like Raynor, Hammer, and even Falstad emerging, stacking health really doesn't help all that much. Also, he's practically useless in team fights still :/. I've only played him a few times in games, but he's definitely not a worthy tank, even after the nerfs to Johanna and Leoric.
Any other thoughts?
All my experience comes from team league so it might be a little different than yours(if you are talking about QM and/or HL) but yesterday we had a game where friend had 9000+ HP with Stitches around 27th minute IIRC. He doesn't suck at all in my opinion, and his hook is still as game breaking as ever, it is just that now if you miss a hook(or if they engage you) he isn't completely useless. Buff to Last Bite and cd reduction on his Devour talent also gives him enormous sustain if fights are happening near minion waves, or if there are some weak summoned units.
I don't know what do you think that they should be doing with him, his hook is one of the strongest abilities in the game and as such they really can't experiment much with him. Nerfing his tankiness while buffing his damage might cause serious problems.
I guess my issue is that everything seems to ride on getting a good hook or not, and that feels a little gimmicky to me. It means that any composition with Stitches becomes a pick composition because he simply can't engage all that well compared to tanks that can dive the back line and dish out actually threatening damage. In any case, playing against him seems like an elaborate game of "make sure you don't get hooked"; if you can do that, he's really meh.
I think the same can be said for a lot of heroes though. Like, Kerrigan is pretty ineffective if you can't land her combo, but can be devastating if you can hit her combo. Same with Stitches - if you can land great hooks, he can be awesome. If not, he's mediocre in other aspects.
I guess the difference is that Kerrigan's combo is very easy to set up, and there are a lot of things you can do even if it doesn't hit. With the hook, it's all up to Stitches to track enemy movements perfectly and land the hook. There's nothing you can do to set it up so that it has a 100% chance of pulling the correct hero, and if it misses, there's a 16 second lull where the Stitches team cannot make any moves.
How the hell did it come to pass that we are now referring to heroes' abilities by their respective activating keys?! I never have any clue what anybody is talking about when they say Q ability or E ability. When did it become an issue to say "X hero's jump, Y hero's heal, and Z hero's slam" if we don't remember their names? You never hear a piano player say "I like that 4th black key from the left. The 8th white key from the right isn't bad either."
On October 10 2015 11:17 Hier wrote: How the hell did it come to pass that we are now referring to heroes' abilities by their respective activating keys?! I never have any clue what anybody is talking about when they say Q ability or E ability. When did it become an issue to say "X hero's jump, Y hero's heal, and Z hero's slam" if we don't remember their names? You never hear a piano player say "I like that 4th black key from the left. The 8th white key from the right isn't bad either."
I think the issue is that there are like a million talents in this game, so unless you actually play the hero often, it's hard to remember all the talent names easily ^^. Casters use this trick a lot to cover up their ignorance, and that's totally fine. It would be amazing if they remembered the name of every single ability and talent in the game and were able to spit it out rapid fire during fights.
On October 10 2015 11:17 Hier wrote: How the hell did it come to pass that we are now referring to heroes' abilities by their respective activating keys?! I never have any clue what anybody is talking about when they say Q ability or E ability. When did it become an issue to say "X hero's jump, Y hero's heal, and Z hero's slam" if we don't remember their names? You never hear a piano player say "I like that 4th black key from the left. The 8th white key from the right isn't bad either."
It came from LoL first, yeah it is quite annoying...
On October 10 2015 03:10 SC2John wrote: For the record, I think Stitches still sucks. He got a huge buff in stacking health, making him a lot better against bursty compositions, but with battles moving more towards long sustain fights and heroes like Raynor, Hammer, and even Falstad emerging, stacking health really doesn't help all that much. Also, he's practically useless in team fights still :/. I've only played him a few times in games, but he's definitely not a worthy tank, even after the nerfs to Johanna and Leoric.
Any other thoughts?
All my experience comes from team league so it might be a little different than yours(if you are talking about QM and/or HL) but yesterday we had a game where friend had 9000+ HP with Stitches around 27th minute IIRC. He doesn't suck at all in my opinion, and his hook is still as game breaking as ever, it is just that now if you miss a hook(or if they engage you) he isn't completely useless. Buff to Last Bite and cd reduction on his Devour talent also gives him enormous sustain if fights are happening near minion waves, or if there are some weak summoned units.
I don't know what do you think that they should be doing with him, his hook is one of the strongest abilities in the game and as such they really can't experiment much with him. Nerfing his tankiness while buffing his damage might cause serious problems.
I guess my issue is that everything seems to ride on getting a good hook or not, and that feels a little gimmicky to me. It means that any composition with Stitches becomes a pick composition because he simply can't engage all that well compared to tanks that can dive the back line and dish out actually threatening damage. In any case, playing against him seems like an elaborate game of "make sure you don't get hooked"; if you can do that, he's really meh.
I think the same can be said for a lot of heroes though. Like, Kerrigan is pretty ineffective if you can't land her combo, but can be devastating if you can hit her combo. Same with Stitches - if you can land great hooks, he can be awesome. If not, he's mediocre in other aspects.
I guess the difference is that Kerrigan's combo is very easy to set up, and there are a lot of things you can do even if it doesn't hit. With the hook, it's all up to Stitches to track enemy movements perfectly and land the hook. There's nothing you can do to set it up so that it has a 100% chance of pulling the correct hero, and if it misses, there's a 16 second lull where the Stitches team cannot make any moves.
That's the thing, it is easy to hit her combo against enemies that don't know how to dodge it. You don't really have to pull correct hero with Stitches, sure it will be better if you can pull Kael'Thas instead of Muradin, but you are forcing their engagement either way or they will play 4v5, and even if you don't manage to kill a hero you will be able to take some chunk of HP, which means that even if they are engaging he has to back off a little bit.
I really don't think that Stitches is useless without a hook right now after the buffs, sure he doesn't do as good as Leoric, Johanna and Muradin in fights when he doesn't have a hook, but he still can be a real pain to deal with. You pull one enemy hero, your team tries to focus him while enemy team is trying to engage you. At that point you are using Putrid Bile and you are rushing towards them, slamming them, slowing them, being fat unkillable wall right in their face, pain in the ass. Now even if your team didn't kill the hooked hero, enemy is usually out of position and are slowed, while all 5 of you are chasing them. Also even if they start the fight(so you can't hook), he can still rush in them with Putrid Bile and start hitting squishy heroes, he might not be dealing some serious damage but trust me it is quite noticeable, he can zone them out pretty well or at least force Warrior(s) and Support(s) to back off and heal them. Hook is also amazing tool for catching feeling enemies.
It needs a bit of time to get used to it, because Stitches playstyle is really different from any other Warrior and team needs to play around him.
Being able to full heal in 15 seconds with a creep wave (or when facing enemies that spam eatable summons) definitely has some potential for stitches. Haven't seen it in action enough yet to say if it's good. He still really needs to be paired with someone with a full stun or major slow, otherwise it's too easy for people to walk away when hooked.
On October 12 2015 13:06 MotherFox wrote: Lili has the highest winrate on hotslogs right now.
I like how some heroes go up and down drastically. I remember how Anubarak was at top1 for about a month and now he is in bottom top10. Sylvana was top1 someday and now she is in bottom top15. Jaina was top1 for about 2 months and now she is top15. Rainor is upper every week and now he is top 4 while Tychus is bottom top10 (someday they were at the same level). Tyrande, Hammer and Sonya in top13 is pretty impressive. ETC and Chen are not bottom top5 anymore, they are somewhere in the middle finally. Zeratul and Tyrael are in the bottom half, even behind Nova, feels very strange...
And Tassadar is still at the bottom thought i have a positive win rate with him and his Force Field. I think it's because most players still use Archon... Force Field imba, just like in SC2
Lili has been on top on hotslogs (filter master league) for weeks. Kael, Lili, TLV are almost always in the top 5 spots by winrate. Leoric and Nazeebo have dropped a bit since medic patch. It seems Raynor and Sonya are back in the top spots, and they'll stay here for long IMO. Nova was often around 52% win rate, that's a bit of a jump for her, but it doesn't surprise me much.
ps: yup, Tassadar means force field now, it can be so over powerful on mines or cursed hollow. He's one of my next goto heroes.
On October 12 2015 13:06 MotherFox wrote: Lili has the highest winrate on hotslogs right now.
I like how some heroes go up and down drastically. I remember how Anubarak was at top1 for about a month and now he is in bottom top10. Sylvana was top1 someday and now she is in bottom top15. Jaina was top1 for about 2 months and now she is top15. Rainor is upper every week and now he is top 4 while Tychus is bottom top10 (someday they were at the same level). Tyrande, Hammer and Sonya in top13 is pretty impressive. ETC and Chen are not bottom top5 anymore, they are somewhere in the middle finally. Zeratul and Tyrael are in the bottom half, even behind Nova, feels very strange...
And Tassadar is still at the bottom thought i have a positive win rate with him and his Force Field. I think it's because most players still use Archon... Force Field imba, just like in SC2
PS Sorry, my analytical nerd awoke
Many of these were directly do to balance changes though, right? Like Lili's ascent has roughly corresponded to a general buffing of auto attack characters and a general nerfing of spell-damage characters. [gathering power, jaina nerf, KT reworks, etc] The fall of anub and etc were due to nerfs as well, etc, etc.
err... Valla at botton tier and Gazlowe's winrate = 49,8%??? This can't be right!
Confirmed: current solo queue top player main's Valla as ranged dps.
Looks like this list ins't trustworthy when popularity is high (yes, newbies). Rainor and Lili as top tiers makes a lot more sense now. Difficulty to play those is close to 0.
I decided to give Stitches a second chance after chatting with some people about his current state in the game. The line of reasoning was that if Hungry for More and Devour buffs take care of all his survival problems, then there was no need to take talents that were typically used to make Stitches be tankier and or more disruptive. In that case, I decided to merge the Slam Build with Hungry for More.
Hungry for More Putrid Ground Toxic Gas Putrid Bile Mega Smash Pulverize Hardened Shield
The result is that Stitches can wave clear pretty reliably by level 7 and he ends up doing a lot more damage during team fights. This is obviously not a build that emphasizes hooks, but I've always been a believer in well-rounded strategies that don't rely solely on a single gimmick. I think that this build allows Stitches to be a solid solo tank as well as provide a lot of disruption and AoE damage to the enemy team. Is Stitches as good as Leoric or Johanna then? No, probably not, but this build works a lot better than the original ones that I was using and actually makes Stitches feel viable.
On October 14 2015 15:06 SC2John wrote: I decided to give Stitches a second chance after chatting with some people about his current state in the game. The line of reasoning was that if Hungry for More and Devour buffs take care of all his survival problems, then there was no need to take talents that were typically used to make Stitches be tankier and or more disruptive. In that case, I decided to merge the Slam Build with Hungry for More.
Hungry for More Putrid Ground Toxic Gas Putrid Bile Mega Smash Pulverize Hardened Shield
The result is that Stitches can wave clear pretty reliably by level 7 and he ends up doing a lot more damage during team fights. This is obviously not a build that emphasizes hooks, but I've always been a believer in well-rounded strategies that don't rely solely on a single gimmick. I think that this build allows Stitches to be a solid solo tank as well as provide a lot of disruption and AoE damage to the enemy team. Is Stitches as good as Leoric or Johanna then? No, probably not, but this build works a lot better than the original ones that I was using and actually makes Stitches feel viable.
Nice, I could give it a try. I gave up on anything regarding Slam build long time ago when I realized whenever I went for that build I was dying easier than Sonya, literally...
Right now, Hungry for more indeed gives you a lot more HP. Also, Yesterday I had a game with friends in QM where Nazeebo did ~90k damage, Falstad 70+k and I did 50+k with Stitches with classic tank build which isn't that bad at all. He doesn't have high single target damage like Leoric and Muradin can have, but I think that he is doing quite a lot of spread damage through Slam, Putrid Bile and Vile Gas.
Don't forget that Stitches baseline hp scaling went up.
It's interesting, pre-buff his HP starting and scaling was better than Johanna's, but his kit didn't allow him to mitigate damage at all and of course Iron Skin is much easier to apply than Devour (and Iron Skin used to have a shorter cooldown).
Well the answer seems to be, just give Stitches more hp, lots more. Will be interesting to see if putting more talents towards Slam is the way to go or if it's still about making yourself a giant meat wall.
Anyways, I have been unable to game for the past week, so I'm just posting to play vicarious =\.
On October 15 2015 01:12 Wuster wrote: Don't forget that Stitches baseline hp scaling went up.
It's interesting, pre-buff his HP starting and scaling was better than Johanna's, but his kit didn't allow him to mitigate damage at all and of course Iron Skin is much easier to apply than Devour (and Iron Skin used to have a shorter cooldown).
Well the answer seems to be, just give Stitches more hp, lots more. Will be interesting to see if putting more talents towards Slam is the way to go or if it's still about making yourself a giant meat wall.
Anyways, I have been unable to game for the past week, so I'm just posting to play vicarious =\.
Stitches is a bitch to kill late game. John, Valiver, and I were in a game last night where we won a 4v5 at level 24 (other team was 23 or 24) because the enemy team hooked and focused on Johns's Stitches. They dumped all of their damage on Stitches and still couldn't kill him, even though we didn't have a healer. We killed four of them outright and eventually killed the fifth right before polishing off the core. We took zero losses. It was impressive to see.
On October 15 2015 01:12 Wuster wrote: Don't forget that Stitches baseline hp scaling went up.
It's interesting, pre-buff his HP starting and scaling was better than Johanna's, but his kit didn't allow him to mitigate damage at all and of course Iron Skin is much easier to apply than Devour (and Iron Skin used to have a shorter cooldown).
Well the answer seems to be, just give Stitches more hp, lots more. Will be interesting to see if putting more talents towards Slam is the way to go or if it's still about making yourself a giant meat wall.
Anyways, I have been unable to game for the past week, so I'm just posting to play vicarious =\.
Stitches is a bitch to kill late game. John, Valiver, and I were in a game last night where we won a 4v5 at level 24 (other team was 23 or 24) because the enemy team hooked and focused on Johns's Stitches. They dumped all of their damage on Stitches and still couldn't kill him, even though we didn't have a healer. We killed four of them outright and eventually killed the fifth right before polishing off the core. We took zero losses. It was impressive to see.
Yeah, he can be insanely hard to kill with that base HP and the huge regeneration.
Incidentally, ETC is hella fun to play now he doesn't die immediately. Had a QM the other day. Me as ETC, Tyrande, Tassadar, Illidan and Valla vs ETC, Tassadar, Tyrande, Zagara, Rexxar on Infernal Shrines. First two shrines were close, then we dominated them. Maybe 40 kills to 9 by the end of it.
I went for talents into Guitar Solo, rather than Powerslide, to provide more team healing (since Tyrande ignored my request to talent into healing, and even took Starfall while theirs took Shadowstalk). With the globe talent at level 1, by level 20 I could heal myself for about 450 health with a single E - considering the cooldown, this gave me incredible sustain. Factor in stormshield, the basic attacks healing after E, and the fact E heals teammates, and I was pretty much unkillable.
Bug Fixes General •For players with Simplified or Traditional Chinese input languages installed, switching display modes will no longer cause the IME keyboard UI to disappear. •The issues mentioned in this post were addressed on the Scaling Test Map. Sgt. Hammer, The Lost Vikings, Rexxar, Diablo, Nova, Li Li, and Kael’thas are now available for testing and feedback. •End of game surveys will now have more descriptive text. •Fixed a translation issue with the name of the Cursed Hollow Scaling Test Map. Heroes and Talents •Fixed an issue that allowed Illidan to cast The Hunt with a reduced cooldown. •Leoric’s Reanimation talent will now gain stacks from Health Globes gathered by allied heroes. •Olaf’s Large and In Charge ability no longer allows him to charge unintended targets. •Fixed an issue that allowed Chen's Storm, Earth, Fire spirits to remain stealthed while attacking. •When playing The Lost Vikings, exiting Lt. Morales’ Medivac will no longer cause camera centering to become stuck. •Fixed a rare issue with Abathur’s Monstrosity losing its AI in high latency situations.
On October 15 2015 06:54 karazax wrote: •End of game surveys will now have more descriptive text.
Hopefully we'll get better questions than just "How was that game?"
Heroes and Talents •Fixed an issue that allowed Illidan to cast The Hunt with a reduced cooldown. •Olaf’s Large and In Charge ability no longer allows him to charge unintended targets.
Glad they fixed the Hunt bug fairly quickly, but is the Olaf bug there the one that allows him to kill the Gem turn-ins on Tomb of the Spider Queen?
Heroes and Talents •Fixed an issue that allowed Illidan to cast The Hunt with a reduced cooldown. •Olaf’s Large and In Charge ability no longer allows him to charge unintended targets.
Glad they fixed the Hunt bug fairly quickly, but is the Olaf bug there the one that allows him to kill the Gem turn-ins on Tomb of the Spider Queen?
Yup, I don't see what other bug Olaf had so it must be it.
On October 15 2015 06:54 karazax wrote: hotfix patch released today:
Bug Fixes General
•Leoric’s Reanimation talent will now gain stacks from Health Globes gathered by allied heroes.
That WASN'T the case already ? As in someone walks to MY lane, touches MY globe and I don't get the bonus ? Wow I'm stunned (2,5 secs).
Thanks for sharing.
It was the case, it was just bugged from the latest(Medic) patch. Which might be the reason why Leoric's win rate went down by ~6,7% while only his Skeletal Swing was nerfed a bit.
I'm giving a second chance to all the heroes I glossed over originally in this patch, so I just wanted to touch upon Tassadar ^^. Played him a few times as a second support and OMG HES AMAZING. The Psionic Storm damage isn't great, especially at early levels, but it ramps up fast enough for him to nearly one shot waves by level 10. The Shield is AMAZING, holy shit. And if you build him with Force Wall, you can do all kinds of annoying shit. His utility is through the roof now.
The only drawback to Tassadar at the moment is that he's still a really niche pick. There is no way in hell you can go full support with him, and he doesn't do enough damage to mesh well with every composition. I think it goes without saying that he's really good in "protect the X" compositions that center around big damage dealers like Illidan, The Butcher, or Hammer, but otherwise he's not a jack of all trades.
Anyways, just wanted to drop by my new opinions of him. I apologize for saying "RIP Tassadar". But still, RIP Archon, the damage is just silly bad now.
On October 15 2015 06:54 karazax wrote: hotfix patch released today:
Bug Fixes General
•Leoric’s Reanimation talent will now gain stacks from Health Globes gathered by allied heroes.
That WASN'T the case already ? As in someone walks to MY lane, touches MY globe and I don't get the bonus ? Wow I'm stunned (2,5 secs).
Thanks for sharing.
It was the case, it was just bugged from the latest(Medic) patch. Which might be the reason why Leoric's win rate went down by ~6,7% while only his Skeletal Swing was nerfed a bit.
Ok, thank you. It's good to know I only started to like Leoric recently and I think he's still quite viable.
About Tassadar, he's still a monster on mines. We won yesterday with a really bad Leoric and an awful Kael Thas (me ^^) and a very good Tassadar. And that wall... It's awesome. Inside the mines it canbe a game changer. He's on my top list of heroes to learn to play competitively (currently learning Raynor, then in order Tassadar, Sonya, Tyrael and Valla).
How deadly Sonya suddenly is now that people throw support on her XD. Played Sonya before, and never got supported, now you get every shield there is, even if its stupid.
Valla is a though beast to learn, probably good to dedicate tripple the time to her.
Just played a game with Raynor, Valla, Zagara, BW and Stitches vs Morales, Sonya, Anub, Gazlowe and Tychus.
Funny draft but level was alright and teams pretty balanced skill wise. I was Zagara and we won, but more important, it confirmed to me something i suspected.
The medic is not a super healer, and you don't have to focus her to win. People misunderstand that. Our teamfights went very simple and effective. We just stayed close, kiting back and getting those BW heals. They had a hard time, forced to dive in, medic and gazlowe struggling to do their jobs. Tychus was confortable but it was simply not enough. Double giant killer Zagara, blow up bruisers and then chase to get the slow ones. A-move to win.
I know, their draft went wrong, but point stands, if you cannot get the medic then fine, you can still kill stuff.
With the changes to Zeratul, I'm back to using Assassin's Blade builds with First Aid instead of Wormhole/Follow Through. I'm also taking Stone Skin frequently at 16 for the extra survivability. One of the nice things about this build is that it fits better with the reduced range on VP, which is pretty painful otherwise.
I've played a couple games on Arthas in HL recently and damn he's an absolute monster with regeneration master. Had so many fights where I would have 0 mana left and still almost full health bar.
From what they posted, all currently old replays still won't be viewable. Only everything from the fix onwards will be.
So if you have replay a month from now, then a year later you should still be able to watch that replay. However, any currently old replay that isn't viewable right now still won't be. It won't fix currently old replays, at least not from what I read in the thread.
So Artanis comes out tomorrow for LotV pre-orders. I can't wait. His kit looks really fun. I'm particularly impressed with his talents (especially the 13 and 16 ones). There are a lot of ways to build him depending upon the circumstances.
What I'm thinking at present is that his core talents will be Seasoned Marksman at 1 and Templar's Zeal at 4. Seasoned Marksman is too good to pass up given that so much of Artanis's damage is AA based. Templar's Zeal opens up the very interesting possibilities of Solarite Reaper and Psionic Synergy at 7. If your team needs damage, take Solarite Reaper to make your spammable Q (when below 50% health) more potent. Otherwise, take Psionic Synergy to give you extra shielding from your trait on demand. The one big question that I have is whether Follow Through hits just once when Artanis uses his W or whether it applies each of the W's attacks (up to 3 times if the 3x talent is taken at 13).
Suppression Pulse is going to be the heroic of choice most of the time and will be completely devastating against AA comps. I do think that Purifier Beam will have a place in comps that are stacked with CC and slows. In particular, I have dreams about comboing Purifier Beam with Sindragosa.
At 13, Triple Strike, Graviton Vortex, and Phase Bulwark all look good. Triple Strike will probably be the talent of choice most of the time, but Phase Bulwark will be stupid strong against mage comps (probably to the point of being unfair). Graviton Vortex looks intriguing and may be a sleeper in terms of overall potential. Imagine sucking multiple back line heroes into the front line and ruining their positioning. There will be a lot of possibilities here.
The level 16 talents are all good. I do wonder, however, how long the range is on Zealot Charge. If it's meaningful and provides a clean engage, it could help largely nullify Artanis's vulnerability to being kited.
All of the Storm talents are excellent, too. Force of Will looks almost too good to pass up, as does Orbital Bombardment.
Think Artanis can be a lot tankier than Sonya though. Some of those shield talents look almost unfair at keeping him alive. Can't wait for the Artanis OP threads.
On October 20 2015 07:03 Thezzy wrote: Think Artanis can be a lot tankier than Sonya though. Some of those shield talents look almost unfair at keeping him alive. Can't wait for the Artanis OP threads.
Yeah, Artanis is going to be brutally difficult to kill if played properly. If he gets to AA constantly, and without factoring in abilities, he'll have his shield up every 4 seconds. Factor in his W and his Q (if specced for Psionic Synergy), he basically can proc his shield every 2 seconds over a ~6-8 second period -- and that's not even counting the level 20 talent that boosts the CD reduction on the shield from AA's from 4 seconds to 6 seconds. That's a stupid amount of shielding generated. Sonya doesn't hold a handle to that kind of survivability. Frankly, I'm not sure anyone does.
Sonya can prolly kill Artanis in 3 seconds once his shield trait starts to kick in . But yeah ... another hero that can solo a boss because of insane self sustain, not sure I like that. Feels already silly with Rexxar.
But I do like the increased health for the Medic x3
I think Artanis will be pretty good. He seems like he is just a generically good off-tank. Fitting into compositions similar to Sonya probably doing less damage but better sustain. Between his block-on-W talent at 1 and his ult he can be an insane counter to an AD based lineup. With his spell shield on bulwark at 13 he should also do fairly well against AP lineups.
I also think if you take +merc damage on W at 1 he will be able to jungle nearly as effectively as Sonya as well
-edit-
Also I think there is room for supports to shine when Artanis is on your team. Recognizing when he does need to be healed and when your heals can be more effective elsewhere. I imagine Uther will be the best support with Artanis. Maybe Brightwing even to offer a super shield when he's under 50 and just try and heal away some of the damage he's taking.
We'll see when he's released but I do wonder how he'll work out in practice. Just simple math shows he'll have gaps in shield unless he specs into triple W and Force of Will at 20. We don't know his final stats, but data-mined he has less hp than Sonya (but more than poor Anub) and his trait covers roughly 20% of his hp (pending if scaling stays in sync of course).
That's not exactly the toughest cookie especially since his trait is not on-demand but a proc to damage taken (I assume the proc will retroactively save him from lethal damage, but just in case it doesn't then he'll be even more vulnerable to being burst down).
Still, I think he's an exciting hero if for no other reason than Sonya competition in the bruiser / warrior-melee hybrid spot.
Don't just disregard Prism as well. It functions similar to Vengeful Spirit's ult from DOTA and there were times you could make some big plays with that.
True, Prism - and the fact that his ults are more than stats on steroids - is a pretty big differentiator from Sonya.
I think that'll be the mark of a good Artanis, like Stiches and hook. One question about Prism, is it a displacement effect (seems logical) or will it have a stun component too? A tank able to interrupt and reposition channelers has the potential to be godly (even if it's only stationary channels).
On October 21 2015 03:19 Wuster wrote: True, Prism - and the fact that his ults are more than stats on steroids - is a pretty big differentiator from Sonya.
I think that'll be the mark of a good Artanis, like Stiches and hook. One question about Prism, is it a displacement effect (seems logical) or will it have a stun component too? A tank able to interrupt and reposition channelers has the potential to be godly (even if it's only stationary channels).
Per the thread of commentary in simple questions regarding stuns and channels, stationary channels would be affected by any displacement effect, I believe. (Not just stuns)
Whether it has a long enough range to hit ETC during mosh pit from outside of the stun area is a different question.
I don't think it has a stun component. If it cancels something like a Naz casting RS I'd *assume* yes but I honestly don't know. I'm not sure if there is a precedence for the mechanics of a swap.
On October 21 2015 03:19 Wuster wrote: True, Prism - and the fact that his ults are more than stats on steroids - is a pretty big differentiator from Sonya.
I think that'll be the mark of a good Artanis, like Stiches and hook. One question about Prism, is it a displacement effect (seems logical) or will it have a stun component too? A tank able to interrupt and reposition channelers has the potential to be godly (even if it's only stationary channels).
Whether it has a long enough range to hit ETC during mosh pit from outside of the stun area is a different question.
From the spotlight video when he swapped with the Butcher it appeared longer than a Mosh circle
The AoE on Suppression Pulse looks huge, I can't see how that's *not* the most picked heroic.
And yes, I know moving someone breaks stationary channels, I'm just not 100% sure if prism will count since it's a new mechanic (teleport versus knockbacks), but I do assume it will.
I've played a few games with Artanis and am not entirely sure what to make of him yet. He doesn't seem as tanky as I originally thought. It could just be that I wasn't playig him right at times. His wave clear with Q is excellent. Damage with W is very good. I think he may need Charge at 16. His E is awesome. There is a ton of potential for big plays with it. I definitely need some more games under my belt before render I judgment on him.
I know you can't do anything in the middle of a Q ability (the dash back and forth), but I was wondering in the back of my mind: Can you cast E/swap ability, then Q-dash away and force the swap to be farther away?
On October 21 2015 06:57 Tenks wrote: I went pretty much a full shield livin life at 50% build and he still felt pretty squishy
What I'm thinking is that you have to still be careful with your positioning. You can't dive into the enemy team and get focused on by five heroes at once. You can, however, reliably one hero with your trait and, situationally, more if you take Psionic Synergy for the extra shield proc. I think Artanis is much harder to play than he looks, thus it is going to take some time for people to figure him out. Still, I see a lot of potential and am starting to have fun with him.
I think Zealot Charge is a mandatory talent at 16. Artanis needs to keep attacking to be effective, and Zealot Charge goes a long way towards ensuring that happens. I also think that Suppression Pulse is ridiculously strong. The level 20 upgrade giving a second charge is absolutely bananas.
Purifier beam may not be the better ult, but it is pretty good and has fun moments. Was fighting at an enemy keep and the other team were all pretty low: cast the level 20 version of it and it tpk'd them. First I cast it on a weak target, which it powered up attacked and killed before they could move much. Then it did it again, etc, etc, etc.
Thanks to a tip from a friend on how to survive with Artanis, I'm having a LOT of fun with this build:
1 Reactive Parry (Seasoned Marksmen if I can get away with it) 4 Templar's Zeal 7 Psionic Synergy 10 Suppression Pulse (or Purifier if you need more damage, it is good too but has less utility) 13 Phase Bulwark 16 Shield Surge 20 Force of Will (or target purified, if you took purifier)
My friend advised to take the shield talents on 13/16. On looking at them, that solidified my plan for 4 and 7, since templar's zeal gives some extra damage, and allows for psionic synergy to then supercharge my 13 and 16. The net effect is that suppression pulse negates hero basic attacks, and phase bulwark ends up disabling much of the ability damage being thrown around. With force of will at 20, if you dashing strike two enemies and use your twin blades, that combination gets your entire shield cooldown taken care of. That means 50% AP reduction most of the time, and good access to block and/or blind.
Reactive parry seems like a very good version of block since you basically want to use twin blades all the time anyway. Every time I go seasoned marksman it feels like I take too much damage.
Anyway, I was really struggling in QM until I came up with this. Maybe it's my positioning, but going full defense really brings out the joy in artanis for me since I can focus on how to position enemies with my prism.
On October 21 2015 19:17 Garbels wrote: Artanis gets one extra week of being in almost every game. What are good heroes against him ?
Yeah I really don't like this pre-order idea. It's bad enough to have new heroes in every game for one week.
Played quite a few games against him now with ETC and Illidan. ETC can easily cancel his Q which is pretty funny. Works with both stun and knockback. His orbital damage ulti seems useless against most heroes (good vs Hammer). I've tried to get people to combo it with Mosh Pit but haven't been successful yet, but I guess the orbital would only damage one hero anyway. The 4 second silence is annoying when you're playing with Illidan but it's not super hard to avoid or let the effect wear off. What annoys me is that Dive is really buggy with Artanis' Q and E and it takes me all over the place. Sometimes his Q simply cancels my Dive and sometimes I don't know where the hell I am. He seems really fun though!
On October 21 2015 06:57 Tenks wrote: I went pretty much a full shield livin life at 50% build and he still felt pretty squishy
What I'm thinking is that you have to still be careful with your positioning. You can't dive into the enemy team and get focused on by five heroes at once. You can, however, reliably one hero with your trait and, situationally, more if you take Psionic Synergy for the extra shield proc. I think Artanis is much harder to play than he looks, thus it is going to take some time for people to figure him out. Still, I see a lot of potential and am starting to have fun with him.
Agreed but it puts him in a bit of an awkward spot. Like his job is to try and capture out flanking assassins and isolate them but not really be the person jumping into a team fight. Which is weird because he's still a warrior but he plays more like a melee assassin than a warrior. Which isn't exactly unprecedented. I'm just not 100% sure what his role will be in the meta.
roflmao. Mura vs Arthanis is funny in a lane. That Q can be blocked by stun is scary. Don't think he will see alot of play at pro level. But could be wrong is E is some insane ability
On October 21 2015 22:30 FeyFey wrote: Don't think he will see alot of play at pro level. But could be wrong is E is some insane ability
At first? Probably not. However, he obviously shits on AA heroes very hard with just Suppression Pulse, which gives him one obvious niche. But honestly, I think that it will simply take some time for people to learn him -- kinda like Kharazim. I very easily can see Artanis being used like Illidan in multiple support comps.
Artanis pretty much single handedly makes Butcher irrelevant in a team fight. I played as Butcher and did my normal "W at 80%'ish life" stuff but the Artanis can just blind you and the team can then pretty easily just kill you. Possibly he may be a valid 4-5th pick dependent upon what you see.
bah Artanis has so many cool talents ... but he is pretty much dead if he doesn't go for shields >.< (though I have to admit i played with people that went chicken the moment I got below 50% hp ... )
On October 21 2015 23:44 FeyFey wrote: bah Artanis has so many cool talents ... but he is pretty much dead if he doesn't go for shields >.< (though I have to admit i played with people that went chicken the moment I got below 50% hp ... )
I'm going to play around some more but I'm starting to feel the sheild talents maybe a trap. I think to stay alive as Artanis you need to keep attacking. So while I think 1-10 are relatively open I think for the sake of survivability you need to take 3x at 13 and charge at 16. That way you are effectively resetting your sheild around every 5 seconds with W's 4 second cooldown and charge guaranteeing them to land. Possibly at 4 attacks speed on E maybe smart too simply to keep cooling down your shield. He may be one of those heroes where truly the best defense is a good offense.
Maybe if you take spell shield at 13 you need to take his D talent at 20
I think suppression + the spell shield may be enough for tankiness, and everything else is a matter of taste. The thing is, his shields activate so frequently that his spell shield is kind of the best in the game--- isn't it?
yep attacking is really key to his survival. So you basically need to do everything that cools down the shield. Because otherwise a single stun will kill you. Of course this is out of a doesn't get the right support point of view. Currently I like the spam Q if below 50% health + and the Q resets shields cooldown if it hits heroes.
Also his E is rather complicated for unorganized teams, but rather good for organized teams. As a Enemy that is rooted doesn't get teleported. So in that case it basically turns into Sonyas abilites. I guess Johanna can block gettinged E'd as well ?
Had a game with a Tassadar that was really cool until level 10, where he took force wall and griefed me with it. Basically force walled me from attacking when I was "low".
When I tried the 3x attack I got killed really fast, but we had a pve player in that game so it was a 4v5 with me being the only melee.
On October 22 2015 00:14 MotherFox wrote: I think suppression + the spell shield may be enough for tankiness, and everything else is a matter of taste. The thing is, his shields activate so frequently that his spell shield is kind of the best in the game--- isn't it?
Yes, Phase Bulwark is OP against mage comps and should be taken against them. Otherwise, Triple Strike is the talent of choice.
And I 100% agree with Tenks. For Artanis, the best defense is a good offense, which is why Zealot Charge and Triple Strike are so important (as well as Psionic Synergy).
On October 22 2015 00:27 FeyFey wrote: yep attacking is really key to his survival. So you basically need to do everything that cools down the shield. Because otherwise a single stun will kill you. Of course this is out of a doesn't get the right support point of view. Currently I like the spam Q if below 50% health + and the Q resets shields cooldown if it hits heroes.
Also his E is rather complicated for unorganized teams, but rather good for organized teams. As a Enemy that is rooted doesn't get teleported. So in that case it basically turns into Sonyas abilites. I guess Johanna can block gettinged E'd as well ?
Had a game with a Tassadar that was really cool until level 10, where he took force wall and griefed me with it. Basically force walled me from attacking when I was "low".
When I tried the 3x attack I got killed really fast, but we had a pve player in that game so it was a 4v5 with me being the only melee.
A fun one is that if you are rooted YOU don't move. I've killed a few malfurions this way.
On October 22 2015 00:14 MotherFox wrote: I think suppression + the spell shield may be enough for tankiness, and everything else is a matter of taste. The thing is, his shields activate so frequently that his spell shield is kind of the best in the game--- isn't it?
Yes, Phase Bulwark is OP against mage comps and should be taken against them. Otherwise, Triple Strike is the talent of choice.
And I 100% agree with Tenks. For Artanis, the best defense is a good offense, which is why Zealot Charge and Triple Strike are so important (as well as Psionic Synergy).
This approach(triple strike) was my first attempt on Artanis, and I just couldn't keep him alive. It feels like there are two ways to keep your shields up all the time:
* dash upgrades on 4 and 7 for keeping dash off cooldown & letting it reduce your shield cooldown * blade upgrades on 13 and 16: upgrading to triple strike and getting zealot charge to stay engaged. The level 20 shield upgrade with triple strike makes triple strike essentially refresh your shield every time you use it (!)
The issue I hit with the auto attack version is being able to peel for the team: if I have to keep engaging to reactivate shields while retreating, then I'm much more likely to die. So every engage turned into an all-in kind of situation. Using the dash talents for shield refresh enabled me to take shield upgrades at 13 and 16, which made it more likely for me to survive while running away and not attacking.
Dashing also has a lot of utility for dodging skill shots I've found--- but this might have to do with the skill level of players I'm against, since I have kind of a feel for when they want to cast their spells. I'm very good at dodging muradin hammers and kerry combos. :D
edit: I see in the quick builds thread that you're taking the dashing skills in conjuction with the fast auto attacking. I'll test that out tonight to see if it stops my peel problems.
On October 21 2015 19:17 Garbels wrote: Artanis gets one extra week of being in almost every game. What are good heroes against him ?
Yeah I really don't like this pre-order idea. It's bad enough to have new heroes in every game for one week.
Played quite a few games against him now with ETC and Illidan. ETC can easily cancel his Q which is pretty funny. Works with both stun and knockback. His orbital damage ulti seems useless against most heroes (good vs Hammer). I've tried to get people to combo it with Mosh Pit but haven't been successful yet, but I guess the orbital would only damage one hero anyway. The 4 second silence is annoying when you're playing with Illidan but it's not super hard to avoid or let the effect wear off. What annoys me is that Dive is really buggy with Artanis' Q and E and it takes me all over the place. Sometimes his Q simply cancels my Dive and sometimes I don't know where the hell I am. He seems really fun though!
From what I've seen the beam is actually an AoE. Amusingly enough it can also splash onto buildings when chasing people. So using it on a core dive can be a nice damned if you do, damned if you don't moment.
On October 22 2015 00:27 FeyFey wrote: yep attacking is really key to his survival. So you basically need to do everything that cools down the shield. Because otherwise a single stun will kill you. Of course this is out of a doesn't get the right support point of view. Currently I like the spam Q if below 50% health + and the Q resets shields cooldown if it hits heroes.
Also his E is rather complicated for unorganized teams, but rather good for organized teams. As a Enemy that is rooted doesn't get teleported. So in that case it basically turns into Sonyas abilites. I guess Johanna can block gettinged E'd as well ?
Had a game with a Tassadar that was really cool until level 10, where he took force wall and griefed me with it. Basically force walled me from attacking when I was "low".
When I tried the 3x attack I got killed really fast, but we had a pve player in that game so it was a 4v5 with me being the only melee.
I didn't realize his Q also reduced his trait cooldown, then it seems possible to have 100% shield uptime even without taking Triple Strike right? I assume then the shield doesn't save you from lethal damage if off cooldown then?
I didn't realize his Q also reduced his trait cooldown, then it seems possible to have 100% shield uptime even without taking Triple Strike right? I assume then the shield doesn't save you from lethal damage if off cooldown then?
There is a talent at level 7 that makes the q reduce trait cooldown, and a talent at level 4 that reduces the q cooldown by 75% if you are under half health.
Ok, the level 20 talent on Purifier Beam is highly entertaining. I just wiped an enemy team with it. I cast it first on the enemy Artanis (it is very effective against him and other tanks/bruisers), then it just mopped up everyone else.
On October 22 2015 00:14 MotherFox wrote: I think suppression + the spell shield may be enough for tankiness, and everything else is a matter of taste. The thing is, his shields activate so frequently that his spell shield is kind of the best in the game--- isn't it?
Yes, Phase Bulwark is OP against mage comps and should be taken against them. Otherwise, Triple Strike is the talent of choice.
And I 100% agree with Tenks. For Artanis, the best defense is a good offense, which is why Zealot Charge and Triple Strike are so important (as well as Psionic Synergy).
So every engage turned into an all-in kind of situation.
I think that is just kind of the nature of Artanis, though. He has no escape and his survivability comes from being in battle.
Artanis seems a bit like Illidan at the moment, good sustain and damage if the fight goes long but pretty weak against burst. Also artanis needs the zealot charge upgrade at 16 to have any stickiness.
Talent thoughts so far:
level 1. Reactive Parry or Seasoned Marksman. Reactive parry seems like a weak version of Johanna's Reinforce at first but the fact Twin blades is such an easily spammable spell, even able to activate it without dismounting, makes it pretty decent. In fights if you spam twinblades it's basically a blockcharge every 4 seconds, so I consider it a bit better than normal block. Seasoned Marksman is good though on artanis, he has decent waveclear making it easy to stack for himself and he benefits fairly well of seasoned marksman, not as well as raynor but still quite well. Amateur opponent is too small of a damage boost and I don't like Artanis as merc hero, though he can do mercs without taking much damage if he is at 50% already, but I don't like the idea of getting there on purpose to merc. Talents that activate on miss and don't even give that much then are lousy.
level 4. All talents seem weak here. Lethal alacrity is alright if the opponents lack CC to punish you for Q but otherwise it's lackluster. Chrono surge is okay if you just want some extra damage and usually my choice. Templar's zeal and Psionic synergy at 7 have potential to give you a lot of shield but that is a pretty risky synergy to rely on, a stun or not being able to connect still kills you, but with good supports dropping to 50% on purpose seems the way to best utilize artanis (with tassa and uther as support for example). Shield battery is awful, if you have full duration with some talents later your shield will typically be up again anyway.
level 7. Psionic synergy is pretty good if you expect longer fights and want more shield procs. If the fights are more bursty that is hard to rely on though and I like Solarite Reaper. It turns your Q into almost a direct waveclear and is useful for fights giving almost as much extra damage as 2 follow through procs. Follow through thus gives slightly more single target damage but the waveclear from Reaper is much more useful outside fights. Warp sickness is ok but I think it doesn't do enough to solve Artanis' problem of connecting and you are better of getting zealot charge for that later.
level 10. Suppression pulse is awesome and usually the pick I think since most heroes can dodge purifier a little too easily but I can image an opposing team that is not vulnerable to blind at all (with double mage for example) where purifier is still what you want, especially if they have targets like Arthas where it's quite good against.
level 13. Triple strike is really good. It plain doubles the effectiveness of twin blades which is huge. Especially since it helps reset shield so quickly making it both a big damage boost and good for defense. Gravitron vortex and Burning rage are immediately out of the question because of this talent imo. Phase bulwark is the only other consideration which can admittedly be quite good against heavy spell damage compositions, I'm still not a huge fan of it though, it's often the spell damage that procs the shield in the first place so i think it activates after the fact too much. In general Artanis seemsmore a pick against AA heroes than against mages so I expect triple strike to be the pick typically when Artanis is the pick.
level 16. Titan killer or Zealot charge are awesome with the triple strike build. Zealot charge is usually needed I feel, because like Illidan you need to be connecting and without Charge you have few ways to garantee this. If the enemy team has a tank (or two) you can comfortably hit anytime though Titan killer is a great option because it just melts through those tanks. Psionic wound is bad compared to these two I feel because you need zealot charge to connect or when you don't titan killer does more extra damage probably than psionic wound (especially in pubs). Shield surge is also a cool consideration for the full shield build but zealot charge probably gives more surviveability often just making you so mobile.
level 20. upgrade to suppression pulse is really good, two pulses in a fight is really good. Heck drawing the fight long with it 3 is not even out of the question. Force of will seems bad, other builds already drop the cooldown of shield low enough. The upgrade for purifier is too much win more I think, if you get eradicate your first target so easily you're probably winning the fight anyway. Nexus blades is the option I think if you went purifier further helping the problem of sticking to a target. And the damage get's pretty big if you were building seasoned marksman.
Overall hero strength of artanis seems a bit low for pubs especially. He's quite vulnerable and the trait is hard to abuse without dedicated setup. He works best in long drawn out fight where your trait procs multiple times and your consistent damage output shines, that pretty much requires double support on your side though and/or low burst on theirs. Especially against tanky comps or those relying on AA he shines most because the suppressing beam rocks so much against those comps. If he sees play with the pro's I think it will be a counterpick to comps with something like monk + raynor. Probably paired with tassadar to keep him alive. I can imagine a good team breaking him by letting him drop to 50% in fights and then shielding him to keep him going while his shield and talents like Templar's zeal go crazy.
Oh, if anyone is wondering--- artansis' shields are around 20% of his max hp. that can make it a little easier when considering how tanky he is. His starting hp and hp per level seems to be just a touch under tyreal.
Of course, he has quite a few damage reduction effects floating around him--- so it's not exactly a clear-cut case of hp and shield numbers.
First three games with Artanis, he is quite resilient but is indeed vulnerable to stuns but otherwise he is fun although he does require a new approach to play given his trait. I do agree that he is a bit more of a team hero. Just came out of a horrid game where no one did anything together and solo he doesn't do so well. Having top damage by a wide margin on a team with Valla, Anub, Hammer and Murky wasn't helping even though I went for a shield build.
Not sure if he'll be popular in Hero League, guess we'll see.
On October 22 2015 05:20 MotherFox wrote: speaking of hero league--- I'm noticing E.T.C. having quite the resurgence. He's passed Johanna on hotslogs.
ETC is quite alright, well positioned amongst the currently popular heroes I think. His attack speed boost works well with heroes like raynor and kharazim and a quick reliable stun is pretty good against stuff like sonya. Plus the globe talent + groupies is quite strong. Johanna just isn't that strong anymore either, warriors in general are in a fairly balanced spot where the pick depends more on composition and map than a tier list i think. Sonya excepted who is just the strongest warrior if not hero right now.
its always the same, people start to use 3 melee comps. Then it owns and gets even more popular. At some point people remember that there was someone called ETC and what he does to compositions that gather that easily even at pro level. Surprising people ignored him so long, that even some got the idea to play 3 warrior comps lol.
Got a bit more Arthanis games, despite still not knowing how someone especially a Protoss can change so much. And turn from a Scout pilot to a Badass Zealot that never retreats.
Jaina 6 second slow actually is useful now. Could take the 16 shields talent and could not be killed as the opposing team lacked the stun. But you explode the moment you are out of position. So not a tank that can keep the enemy away. But he can grab an enemy and survive till the team did their job. Oh and if he gets grabbed it doesn't matter as the team can follow up before he is down. I think he could use a Talent where is E teleports him if it doesn't find a target. So he gets an oh shit button like Sonya.
Also QM is fuuun as hell if you do a 1v1 with an enemy Artanis. basically nothing happens, like Immortals fighting.
I dunno Artanis just plays so weird and I'm not sure if he's worth it. I was trying to be much more careful about when to use my Q since I would spec into having it reduce my shield cooldown. Spamming W when I can and using Q as more of an "oh shit I need shields" button helped me survive a bit but I'm not sure if it was enough to warrant him being there. It seems like everytime I play him I wonder why I'm just not a melee assassin since he has to function in a very similar fashion but doesn't seem to have the same damage, ability to gank or escapes.
I realize this is probably just my noobishness showing through, but I finally took emerald wind for the first time tonight on bw. Worked marvelously at protecting a jaina/tychus against enemy dive melee'rs on infernal shrines.
Dunno for me he plays like Diablo, tank with no escape. And he is probably the first tank that doesn't get destroyed by giant killer. He basically demands to get focused, because otherwise he will just annoy the crap out of you. And his swap ability can save an ally or bring an enemy into a really horrible position. And he comes with a global oh shit button, so he can split of from the team. He also only needs a healer if he gets focused. I find it nice to have a tank that does well against single target damage.
Also what wait we were Artanis, the lil Protoss weakling that even in the final scene at the xel naga tower looked like a total newb? ugh ...
Artanis's level 7 talent psionic synergy states that every hero hit by your blade dash reduces your shield overload cooldown by 4 seconds. In my mind this seemed pretty good: you blade dash into two enemies, you get 8 seconds reduction.
Well, I was just playing with Artanis in try mode and noticed that if you hit the same hero twice (once on the way out, again on the way back) you are counted as hitting two heroes. So each hero you hit twice actually gives 8 seconds reduction, which means two heroes would be 16 seconds reduction. If you hit four heroes just one way(got stunned or something), that's still 16 seconds of reduction--- pretty awesome.
Given this, I'm not sure that triple strike at 13 is needed in addition to this skill for cooldown reduction purposes. It also casts doubt in my mind on the need for the lvl 20 shield ability if you take psionic synergy.
Oh, also-- apparently there is an exploit with triple strike right now: (which is what I was testing in the first place)
Hasn't been discussed how good Artanis can be as a lane pusher:
- He has really good wave clear - Awesome sustain. - You can tank tower shots almost forever - Enough damage to take some camps along the way
- Can SOLO core!!
Just tried this in QM, going for a AA build with seasoned marksman, triple strike, charge Map was Dragon Shire, i bullied most heroes in my lane and pushed while holding on to top shrine. With global ult i could even help teammates mid/bottom shrine. At lvl 20 (took nexus blades) we had a dragon and the whole enemy team was hunting our dragon, not letting him get to core, so i just walked to the core and pretty much solo'd it ^^ With guaranteed hits on the core, shield cooldown/ shield proc was enough to absorb core damage
On October 22 2015 12:28 MotherFox wrote: I realize this is probably just my noobishness showing through, but I finally took emerald wind for the first time tonight on bw. Worked marvelously at protecting a jaina/tychus against enemy dive melee'rs on infernal shrines.
I played lots of games with BW and I never ever picked it I admit. She's my main support by far but the blink heal is just so powerful. That feeling when you keep everyone alive with 2 blinks, one E and one shield teleport... :-) If the enemi dive is quite powerful, with 2 or 3 attackers, I think EW is the go-to talent. If it's only 1 guy you can just squirrel his face.
FeyFey wrote:Also QM is fuuun as hell if you do a 1v1 with an enemy Artanis. basically nothing happens, like Immortals fighting.
I just did it yesterday. It was long and boring in the first levels. But the other guy slowly got the upper hand in the earliest levels because he took the parry and I took marksman. But I started to snowball around level 6 I think and our fights all turned in my favor (also, he was level 6 Artanis and it was my 1st game, but he wasn't a good player at all). And he really wanted to fight me so he came often and it never worked cause I went greedy DPS build. Here it is BTW: 1. Seasoned Marksman 4. Chrono surge (you grab an enemy hero and you get more attacks so more shields) 7. Follow through seems the go-to for greedy DPS. I like Warp Sickness more though. 10. Purifier's Beam doesn't require team coordination so it's better for solo queue. But both are very good. 13. Tripple Strike (a free hit and more shields) 16. All 3 are awesome talents. Just not Psionic Wound, it requires someone with Executioner. 20. Nexus Blades. You don't get more shield with it but it synergies with your AA.
I feel Artanis is a bit too powerful right now, or people just can't play vs him. I played 3 games (2 in HL 1 in QM) vs him and lost all 3. Played 1 game as Artanis in QM and we won by a very wide margin (they had him too). So, right now all team who won in a game where there was 1 Artanis just won. It's not OK. I play HL at rank 5, people just can't grab a new hero, play 2 QM and rule HL. It just feels wrong. The guy's not balanced yet. Maybe our Muradin going for Haymaker into dive 1v4 didn't help. But still.
Keep in mind Artanis is bugged in a way that's really easy for people to trigger - if you W when you're about to auto-attack someone then you'll hit a total of 1 + 4 times rather than the expected 1 + 2. The numbers are even bigger if you take Triple Strike. I think someone tallied over 2000 total damage at lvl 20, which is enough to one-shot squishy champions.
So people who don't even know about the bug are probably still triggering it a lot given what the activation conditions are. I haven't tried it yet, but did notice that he somehow has burst out of nowhere, I assumed it was just me not being familiar with his talents, but maybe not.
On October 22 2015 17:14 Wuster wrote: Keep in mind Artanis is bugged in a way that's really easy for people to trigger - if you W when you're about to auto-attack someone then you'll hit a total of 1 + 4 times rather than the expected 1 + 2. The numbers are even bigger if you take Triple Strike. I think someone tallied over 2000 total damage at lvl 20, which is enough to one-shot squishy champions.
So people who don't even know about the bug are probably still triggering it a lot given what the activation conditions are. I haven't tried it yet, but did notice that he somehow has burst out of nowhere, I assumed it was just me not being familiar with his talents, but maybe not.
From Reddit, the activation of W needs to be right after you auto-attack, but I am not sure if you need to have Zealot Charge talent or not(as they have said that it is bugged specifically with Zealot Charge) and you double your attacks, 6 attacks instead of 3(1 aa + 2 from twin blades) or 8 attacks instead of 4(1 aa + 3 from twin blades with triple strike).
It's not OK. I play HL at rank 5, people just can't grab a new hero, play 2 QM and rule HL. It just feels wrong. The guy's not balanced yet. Maybe our Muradin going for Haymaker into dive 1v4 didn't help. But still.
Don't know what the Muradin did, but Artanis couldn't really do anything when I was on Mura, just have to time your thunderclap when his shild is down ... but Haymaker says everything, though it could actually work against Artanis. I think Artanis is pretty weak, but has a lot of situations where he shines. He has a bit from Nova as he does better against uncoordinated teams. But his weakness is CC.
On October 22 2015 17:14 Wuster wrote: Keep in mind Artanis is bugged in a way that's really easy for people to trigger - if you W when you're about to auto-attack someone then you'll hit a total of 1 + 4 times rather than the expected 1 + 2. The numbers are even bigger if you take Triple Strike. I think someone tallied over 2000 total damage at lvl 20, which is enough to one-shot squishy champions.
So people who don't even know about the bug are probably still triggering it a lot given what the activation conditions are. I haven't tried it yet, but did notice that he somehow has burst out of nowhere, I assumed it was just me not being familiar with his talents, but maybe not.
From Reddit, the activation of W needs to be right after you auto-attack, but I am not sure if you need to have Zealot Charge talent or not(as they have said that it is bugged specifically with Zealot Charge) and you double your attacks, 6 attacks instead of 3(1 aa + 2 from twin blades) or 8 attacks instead of 4(1 aa + 3 from twin blades with triple strike).
After trying it in try mode, I realized how it was found so quickly: if you a-move someone and use your twin/triple strike directly after your auto attack lands, you can then move away for a few seconds and move in again for the burst of auto attacks. It's probably the way you are supposed to be approaching the character.
On October 22 2015 17:14 Wuster wrote: Keep in mind Artanis is bugged in a way that's really easy for people to trigger - if you W when you're about to auto-attack someone then you'll hit a total of 1 + 4 times rather than the expected 1 + 2. The numbers are even bigger if you take Triple Strike. I think someone tallied over 2000 total damage at lvl 20, which is enough to one-shot squishy champions.
So people who don't even know about the bug are probably still triggering it a lot given what the activation conditions are. I haven't tried it yet, but did notice that he somehow has burst out of nowhere, I assumed it was just me not being familiar with his talents, but maybe not.
From Reddit, the activation of W needs to be right after you auto-attack, but I am not sure if you need to have Zealot Charge talent or not(as they have said that it is bugged specifically with Zealot Charge) and you double your attacks, 6 attacks instead of 3(1 aa + 2 from twin blades) or 8 attacks instead of 4(1 aa + 3 from twin blades with triple strike).
The auto gets double too? Well that's just piling it on lol, I thought it was only the W's attacks that were doubled.
And since W can be used to instantly attack, that's what you want to aim for, hitting it right after your auto anyways.
On October 22 2015 05:20 MotherFox wrote: speaking of hero league--- I'm noticing E.T.C. having quite the resurgence. He's passed Johanna on hotslogs.
ETC is quite alright, well positioned amongst the currently popular heroes I think. His attack speed boost works well with heroes like raynor and kharazim and a quick reliable stun is pretty good against stuff like sonya. Plus the globe talent + groupies is quite strong. Johanna just isn't that strong anymore either, warriors in general are in a fairly balanced spot where the pick depends more on composition and map than a tier list i think. Sonya excepted who is just the strongest warrior if not hero right now.
Had a negative experience with ETC last night. I picked him fourth in the draft:
Tomb of the Spider Queen Us: Johanna Falstad Medic (me)
Other team: Raynor Illidan Sonya
At the time I was thinking...
* We already have a medic and falstad, so something that boost autoattacks is good [...BUT medic didn't take stim, last player didn't pick autoattacker] * They already have a heavy melee line, so something disruptive for divers was good * I've had some good success with ETC
Unfortunately, the other team picked butcher/brightwing and our last player took nazeebo. As a result I had to be super careful with mosh, and since nazeebo took gargantuan we had close to zero wombo to followup mosh pit with. [Falstad also took gathering power with an autoattack build, which goes to my normal strategy of "don't trust anyone else with assassins"...]
So does ETC have to be a last pick? It seems like there are a lot of things that can disrupt mosh, so it is a dangerous thing to draft him early.
I think ETC doesn't work well with Johanna (one collects guys, one spreads everything out, also neither particularly have the damage to be bruisers) and as you said you had no Wombo Potential with that comp.
Rockstar isn't going to buff auto-attackers so much that you warp your comp around it. Besides, Raynor/Illidan are both on the other team, so who's the 5th going to take? Maybe Valla (but her AA build isn't that popular). Hammer would be good, but she's a niche hero you can't count on seeing either.
The other way I'm seeing ETC played is Prog Rock - Groupies to make a sustain comp... but Medic isn't a sustain healer (at least I don't think, I don't have a ton of experience with her on my team).
Against an Illidan and Sonya I think I would have insta-grabbed Muradin. He can mess them up pretty well and although his damage isn't great either, his utility lines up much better with Johanna's and he's just as good as ETC at peeling.
On October 23 2015 03:51 MotherFox wrote: yeah, reverb muradin would have been better in hindsight.
but I guess my question stands: does ETC have to be much later in the draft to carefully avoid things that can cancel mosh?
Maybe, but whenever I play ETC I make sure to mosh pit the heroes that could interrupt me.
While I would recommed not picking etc agaisnt a stun heavy comp, he can still work. A lot of the times people rush the mosh pit like if that was the only thing etc could do, but he can do so much more. It is better to wait for the time someone uses their stun and then use mosh pit, or Like I say wait until a target you want dead and a target who can interrupt you are close togheter and then mosh pit. Most people, even pros, clump up sometime during the fight. Wait for that moment.
There will always be stuff that can cancel mosh. I think the important part is to catch all those enemies that can cancel you with the mosh - if you're not getting all of them stunned, it's not even worth using mosh. Might as well use it to burst down a lone enemy hero in that case, it doesn't always have to be used in every team fight because people are predicting you to. One thing I don't like is playing ETC vs Raynor though, good Raynors will just stay in the back and save their Q for when you actually go in with mosh, so it's practically impossible to get off a good mosh vs him since he doesn't stay with the rest of the team.
On October 23 2015 05:45 Garbels wrote: Would have probably busted out my lvl 2 artanis for that draft.
I thought of doing this, but I have an internal rule that I don't draft characters I own which are level 5 or less. Also, of course, the medic was calling for someone to pick up cc and would probably have chewed me out even more if I had picked a warrior without stuns
If you see a melee heavy composition, you should draft Muradin if at all possible. Leoric is also good against them. Medic sucks, which is unfortunate... Uther or Kharazim would have been better (obviously). Butcher is also a good pick against melee.
I don't think ETC was a mistake in your spot. He's a solid choice. Muradin would work as well. If you wanna go out of the mold, Li Li works with more blinds and pure numbers, but you'd need a strong Falstad.
While I'd expect your last pick to be Naz or Zagara, I think once you pick ETC, Zagara becomes the clear choice. If she lands a good maw, you can Mosh Pit it while, hopefully, your allies zone out Raynor. She's always strong on Tomb, and vision is very important vs dive teams.
Basically, your allies picked the wrong hero for their role every time, except Johanna first pick, always good on Tomb. Hope they play better than they draft.
I played Artanis about 10 games and lost about 6 of them and he seems to be a little weak.
He is weak because: - No abilities to retreat - No self healing
What i see to make him stronger: - Just buff health like they did with Morales (don't really like it) - Make the Q ability so you can cancel it. It will be cool if you want to retreat or catch an enemy (maybe too imba) - Make auto-shield activation start from 70-75% health not 50% because now you have no access to it until you half damaged and easy to be killed. - Maybe some longer range to Phase Prism because i miss the target so much.
On October 23 2015 17:34 Jenia6109 wrote: I played Artanis about 10 games and lost about 6 of them and he seems to be a little weak.
He is weak because: - No abilities to retreat - No self healing
What i see to make him stronger: - Just buff health like they did with Morales (don't really like it) - Make the Q ability so you can cancel it. It will be cool if you want to retreat or catch an enemy (maybe too imba) - Make auto-shield activation start from 70-75% health not 50% because now you have no access to it until you half damaged and easy to be killed. - Maybe some longer range to Phase Prism because i miss the target so much.
Take Psionic Synergy at level 7 and it will solve a lot of your survival problems. It counts for both dashes on the Q and all enemy heroes, so if you hit 4 heroes in total with it, he automatically procs his shield every time he Qs. If you get some talents like Triple Strike, it lowers the cooldown on his shields even faster so that it's almost always up. At that point, Force of Will at 20 is pretty much unnecessary. In my experience, Artanis is really easy to get down to 50% and impossible to actually kill if he's spec'd correctly.
EDIT: The biggest thing that everyone's noticing is that he starts out pretty slow, but by the time he gets to level 16 onwards, he's a monster. So that's also an issue for people who want to break people early and are dissatisfied with his early game.
EDIT: Actually, it only takes 2 people to proc his shield with Q using Psionic Synergy. (2 x both dashes = 4 x 4 = 16 second CDR + one auto attack).
I agree that Q needs to be a bit more interesting or at least have an unstoppable frame, but I think people are far from mastering it as it works already, so I'm hesitant to insist on changes to it yet. The animation on Phase Prism needs to be faster or higher ranged, I agree with you on that. Right now it's only useful in practically melee situations where switching places doesn't do much other than body block.
On October 22 2015 05:20 MotherFox wrote: speaking of hero league--- I'm noticing E.T.C. having quite the resurgence. He's passed Johanna on hotslogs.
ETC is quite alright, well positioned amongst the currently popular heroes I think. His attack speed boost works well with heroes like raynor and kharazim and a quick reliable stun is pretty good against stuff like sonya. Plus the globe talent + groupies is quite strong. Johanna just isn't that strong anymore either, warriors in general are in a fairly balanced spot where the pick depends more on composition and map than a tier list i think. Sonya excepted who is just the strongest warrior if not hero right now.
Had a negative experience with ETC last night. I picked him fourth in the draft:
Tomb of the Spider Queen Us: Johanna Falstad Medic (me)
Other team: Raynor Illidan Sonya
At the time I was thinking...
* We already have a medic and falstad, so something that boost autoattacks is good [...BUT medic didn't take stim, last player didn't pick autoattacker] * They already have a heavy melee line, so something disruptive for divers was good * I've had some good success with ETC
Unfortunately, the other team picked butcher/brightwing and our last player took nazeebo. As a result I had to be super careful with mosh, and since nazeebo took gargantuan we had close to zero wombo to followup mosh pit with. [Falstad also took gathering power with an autoattack build, which goes to my normal strategy of "don't trust anyone else with assassins"...]
So does ETC have to be a last pick? It seems like there are a lot of things that can disrupt mosh, so it is a dangerous thing to draft him early.
ETC because of medic is iffy. I get the line of thought that medic enables autoattackers so the next pick should probably be something that can carry drone but people draft too bad for that, because of that I do like to pick ETC very late or when the good synergies are already there. Also note stim drone and ETC attack bonus isn't even very good together, attack speed bonusses are additive (exception nexus frenzy only I believe) so drone + ETC trait is arguably even diminishing returns. And as others mention I prefer ETC as a more main tank character paired with a bruiser more, not so much a johanna.
On October 23 2015 17:34 Jenia6109 wrote: I played Artanis about 10 games and lost about 6 of them and he seems to be a little weak.
He is weak because: - No abilities to retreat - No self healing
What i see to make him stronger: - Just buff health like they did with Morales (don't really like it) - Make the Q ability so you can cancel it. It will be cool if you want to retreat or catch an enemy (maybe too imba) - Make auto-shield activation start from 70-75% health not 50% because now you have no access to it until you half damaged and easy to be killed. - Maybe some longer range to Phase Prism because i miss the target so much.
Take Psionic Synergy at level 7 and it will solve a lot of your survival problems. It counts for both dashes on the Q and all enemy heroes, so if you hit 4 heroes in total with it, he automatically procs his shield every time he Qs. If you get some talents like Triple Strike, it lowers the cooldown on his shields even faster so that it's almost always up. At that point, Force of Will at 20 is pretty much unnecessary. In my experience, Artanis is really easy to get down to 50% and impossible to actually kill if he's spec'd correctly.
EDIT: The biggest thing that everyone's noticing is that he starts out pretty slow, but by the time he gets to level 16 onwards, he's a monster. So that's also an issue for people who want to break people early and are dissatisfied with his early game.
EDIT: Actually, it only takes 2 people to proc his shield with Q using Psionic Synergy. (2 x both dashes = 4 x 4 = 16 second CDR + one auto attack).
I agree that Q needs to be a bit more interesting or at least have an unstoppable frame, but I think people are far from mastering it as it works already, so I'm hesitant to insist on changes to it yet. The animation on Phase Prism needs to be faster or higher ranged, I agree with you on that. Right now it's only useful in practically melee situations where switching places doesn't do much other than body block.
I think Psionic Synergy is the answer with Nexus Blades on 20th level.
Also i can predict that some talents will be switched or changed in some patch.
On October 23 2015 17:34 Jenia6109 wrote: I played Artanis about 10 games and lost about 6 of them and he seems to be a little weak.
He is weak because: - No abilities to retreat - No self healing
What i see to make him stronger: - Just buff health like they did with Morales (don't really like it) - Make the Q ability so you can cancel it. It will be cool if you want to retreat or catch an enemy (maybe too imba) - Make auto-shield activation start from 70-75% health not 50% because now you have no access to it until you half damaged and easy to be killed. - Maybe some longer range to Phase Prism because i miss the target so much.
Take Psionic Synergy at level 7 and it will solve a lot of your survival problems. It counts for both dashes on the Q and all enemy heroes, so if you hit 4 heroes in total with it, he automatically procs his shield every time he Qs. If you get some talents like Triple Strike, it lowers the cooldown on his shields even faster so that it's almost always up. At that point, Force of Will at 20 is pretty much unnecessary. In my experience, Artanis is really easy to get down to 50% and impossible to actually kill if he's spec'd correctly.
EDIT: The biggest thing that everyone's noticing is that he starts out pretty slow, but by the time he gets to level 16 onwards, he's a monster. So that's also an issue for people who want to break people early and are dissatisfied with his early game.
EDIT: Actually, it only takes 2 people to proc his shield with Q using Psionic Synergy. (2 x both dashes = 4 x 4 = 16 second CDR + one auto attack).
I agree that Q needs to be a bit more interesting or at least have an unstoppable frame, but I think people are far from mastering it as it works already, so I'm hesitant to insist on changes to it yet. The animation on Phase Prism needs to be faster or higher ranged, I agree with you on that. Right now it's only useful in practically melee situations where switching places doesn't do much other than body block.
I think Psionic Synergy is the answer with Nexus Blades on 20th level.
Also i can predict that some talents will be switched or changed in some patch.
Templar's Zeal, Psionic Synergy, and Zealot Charge are core talents for Artanis that you should always take on him. I'd put Triple Strike there, too, but the spell shield can be really good against mage comps. At 20, I think either heroic upgrade is better than Nexus Blades. Artanis does a ton of damage already.
Honestly, I think that the only thing really holding Artanis back is his weak early game. He's comparatively awful before level 7 and pretty bad before level 10. With his heroic and triple strike, he suddenly becomes very good. With Zealot Charge at 16, he turns into a monster.
EDIT: I'm not yet willing to write off the possibility that Artanis may be secretly OP. Yes, his early game is bad, but once he gets Zealot Charge, you can do (and get away with) some truly ridiculous shit. There are times where I've just been in awe of the impact that I've had on particular fights with Artanis. As I have said before, I think that Artanis has a very high learning curve, so it will take a while for the community at large to figure him out. I've played 30+ games with him so far, but I am still not entirely comfortable with him, and I don't feel like I have a good sense for his tolerances yet (it's improving though). Also, Phase Prism is a beast of an ability. If you do nothing else but land good Phase Prisms, you can contribute heavily to your team's early game and mitigate your own individual weakness. I think it could be OP if Blizzard buffed it.
He's good post-16 but I can't really think of another warrior that is within that framework. Generally it feels like you need your warriors to be able to contribute from the get-go and Artanis simply isn't like that. Sure you can get by dragging a Murky or Raynor or something to the lategame but it feels really awkward to try and drag along a warrior. He feels really clunky and almost unfun to play until you get charge.
A hero that's good only in the lategame, when most games have already been decided, is a bad hero, unless he was so imba as kaelthas that he could turn around the game by himself, but I don't think this is the case.
I don't know if I necessarily agree or disagree with that statement. I don't mind trying to limit the damage knowing eventually you'll get a hero that can wreck. It happens with Raynor. Once you get double Q and stun-on-Q and some Marksman stacks suddenly Raynor is beast where previously he was just a lane bully. I don't think all heroes need to be equally powerful from level 1 to level 20. Its just generally those heroes which scale better are usually assassins or specialists. I guess you could argue Muradin gets a fairly substantial power spike at 16 as well but he isn't completely incompetent before then.
On October 23 2015 10:33 MotherFox wrote: the johanna was in my party and frequents these boards-- I'm sure he'll be happy to hear the praise
Always good to find out I have some idea of what I'm doing
I remember being very torn about what to take at level 1 on that game. Knight Takes Pawn is really good on that map but Reinforce is strong vs their line up of AA. I think I took reinforce but thinking back I probably should have gone with Knight since we had such low wave clear. Was I right to take reinforce or is my second guess of knight the better option here?
I pretty much always take Knight Takes Pawn even after the nerfs. If it is really an AA comp just take Imposing at 16 when the real team fights start happening anyways.
I haven't played Nova in a while and good god the GP nerf really hit her hard. She still felt good from levels 1-16 or so but after that she just had no damage in the least. The only good thing that happened was I went 3Tap and someone tried to save his team mate but died after 2 shots and the final shot killed the initial target as well.
-edit-
I'm also going to try this build out for her tonight.
The idea here is to basically just snipe as fast as possible to process the most possible follow through charges. I'm wondering if you may be able to get more actual burst with follow through procs instead of front loading your AA into Anti Armor.
Personally, block-like effects aren't that good against Illidan anyways since he attacks so fast with so low damage. But of course Illidan should be trying to avoid you and block is good against Raynor (who does like targetting tanks). So it's a little bit of a gamble against that comp and how they end up playing (also possible that Raynor just focuses down ETC too).
Tenks' advice is good as it gives you time to see how things are unfolding.
Yeah I don't care for ETC vs AA comps because he doesn't get a block talent (edit I'm bad he does get block but I think you'd either always take his Q or E) and he can't really take Imposing at 16 without giving up a ton. Johanna however can take it pretty freely.
If your target is at full Health, they gain a Shield that absorbs 20 (+7.5 per level) damage, stacking up to 5 times.
People take this all the time and I see it as such a trash talent. The bioshield is negated if:
* You change targets of your healing beam * You are stunned * Your target moves out of your range (I'm looking at you illidan)
Close to 100% of the time you are applying bioshield, you are getting no healing functionality out of your Q in that exact moment. 95% of game time bioshield does not do anything for you. The only thing I can think of that it reliably does well is negate damage from minion waves and mercs/bosses--- two things I am not really concerned about when it comes to healing up my team. Frankly I would prefer any of the other talents at this level on my medic, which is why I always go advanced block or upgraded ballistics.
What are people seeing in this skill that I'm not? I haven't done thorough replay analysis, but I'd bet dollars to donuts this skill rarely makes a difference in team fights.
I think most people go advanced block but bioshield can be fun if you're in a pushing lane because you can shield a creep and it will eat a ton of ammo. Its also good if you know someone will be eating some front loaded damage. But the issue is if a team is diving on someone they're diving on medic.
On October 24 2015 02:45 Tenks wrote: I think most people go advanced block but bioshield can be fun if you're in a pushing lane because you can shield a creep and it will eat a ton of ammo. Its also good if you know someone will be eating some front loaded damage. But the issue is if a team is diving on someone they're diving on medic.
God, if the skill was "if the target of your healing is at full YOU get a shield for..." it would be so much better. That's what it should be, IMO.
Anyway, minirant trigger by both seeing this on lots of medics and seeing the quick build guide refer to it as a good alternate talent to advanced block Even though hotslogs reports the skill as popular, it is the lowest winrate of all the skills at this level. (Probably because it is very similar to not taking a skill at this level)
Yeah its one of those trap talents that sounds like it should be good but in practice isn't that good. The shield should persist for a few seconds after shifting off the target, IMO. If anything simply to address the issue of you get stunned and the shield dies.
On October 24 2015 02:53 Wuster wrote: It's also popular for another dumber reason: when you Q a full health target it costs no mana.
So people focus on the mana efficiency rather than the actual help-your-team-win-by-not-dying efficiency.
It turns out that simply not healing someone for a while, depending on their own regen rate also costs no mana. Topping someone to 100% hp out of combat is actually slightly mana inefficient.
Personally I like to buff my grenade talents on her. I like Trauma, Block, Clear, [Ult], Spell/Intensive, Second Opinion, Cad 2.0. I don't feel Couples buys you enough to survive that initial damage burst that you won't be able to heal up naturally with Caduceus anyways. With the double nades and clear you can buy yourself some space to retreat away and your trauma/block should be able to eat some of the front-loaded damage. At that point they should have spent most of their dive and got out of position enough with you retreating back to the back line to find someone getting hit and heal them to full via Intensive.
But I've only played her in QM so maybe the nade build is a noob trap as well
On October 24 2015 02:43 MotherFox wrote: What's up with bioshield on medic?
Level 4 talent:
If your target is at full Health, they gain a Shield that absorbs 20 (+7.5 per level) damage, stacking up to 5 times.
People take this all the time and I see it as such a trash talent. The bioshield is negated if:
* You change targets of your healing beam * You are stunned * Your target moves out of your range (I'm looking at you illidan)
Close to 100% of the time you are applying bioshield, you are getting no healing functionality out of your Q in that exact moment. 95% of game time bioshield does not do anything for you. The only thing I can think of that it reliably does well is negate damage from minion waves and mercs/bosses--- two things I am not really concerned about when it comes to healing up my team. Frankly I would prefer any of the other talents at this level on my medic, which is why I always go advanced block or upgraded ballistics.
What are people seeing in this skill that I'm not? I haven't done thorough replay analysis, but I'd bet dollars to donuts this skill rarely makes a difference in team fights.
Mixed with Couple's Therapy, it gives the Medic a shield too.
On October 24 2015 02:43 MotherFox wrote: What's up with bioshield on medic?
Level 4 talent:
If your target is at full Health, they gain a Shield that absorbs 20 (+7.5 per level) damage, stacking up to 5 times.
People take this all the time and I see it as such a trash talent. The bioshield is negated if:
* You change targets of your healing beam * You are stunned * Your target moves out of your range (I'm looking at you illidan)
Close to 100% of the time you are applying bioshield, you are getting no healing functionality out of your Q in that exact moment. 95% of game time bioshield does not do anything for you. The only thing I can think of that it reliably does well is negate damage from minion waves and mercs/bosses--- two things I am not really concerned about when it comes to healing up my team. Frankly I would prefer any of the other talents at this level on my medic, which is why I always go advanced block or upgraded ballistics.
What are people seeing in this skill that I'm not? I haven't done thorough replay analysis, but I'd bet dollars to donuts this skill rarely makes a difference in team fights.
Mixed with Couple's Therapy, it gives the Medic a shield too.
If you use q to switch targets does it negate the shield on the medic?
On October 24 2015 02:43 MotherFox wrote: What's up with bioshield on medic?
Level 4 talent:
If your target is at full Health, they gain a Shield that absorbs 20 (+7.5 per level) damage, stacking up to 5 times.
People take this all the time and I see it as such a trash talent. The bioshield is negated if:
* You change targets of your healing beam * You are stunned * Your target moves out of your range (I'm looking at you illidan)
Close to 100% of the time you are applying bioshield, you are getting no healing functionality out of your Q in that exact moment. 95% of game time bioshield does not do anything for you. The only thing I can think of that it reliably does well is negate damage from minion waves and mercs/bosses--- two things I am not really concerned about when it comes to healing up my team. Frankly I would prefer any of the other talents at this level on my medic, which is why I always go advanced block or upgraded ballistics.
What are people seeing in this skill that I'm not? I haven't done thorough replay analysis, but I'd bet dollars to donuts this skill rarely makes a difference in team fights.
Mixed with Couple's Therapy, it gives the Medic a shield too.
If you use q to switch targets does it negate the shield on the medic?
I'm pretty sure it stacks, so as long as you're 100% health and healing yourself, you should be gaining shield. I think.
I'm gonna go ahead and backpedal in the off chance that I'm wrong. I don't own medic and I haven't played her, but I've seen a lot of Medics with random shields, and that's the only explanation I can think of. I may have just been mistaken and there was a Tassadar on the teams or something though. Someone can test this to find out.
On October 24 2015 06:02 Tenks wrote: I feel I can confirm with relative certainty that going bioshield, irradiate, medivac to have medic solo split push is not a viable thing
I don't think I've heard of anyone trying this....?
I did worked out really well, but it was blackhearts bay haha. Oh and Bioshield also saves a bit of Mana. I prefer her superblock in most cases though. But thats because I usually don't take Couple Therapie.
On October 24 2015 06:02 Tenks wrote: I feel I can confirm with relative certainty that going bioshield, irradiate, medivac to have medic solo split push is not a viable thing
I don't think I've heard of anyone trying this....?
Fought twice tonight on mines where my team got tassadar and sylvanas. Really feels like something needs to change about this map, but I'm not sure what: both games were complete bloodbaths.
In other thoughts, my continuing quest to draft better.
Tonight in hero league I had a pretty good run: 3 wins, 1 loss. The loss was a complete disaster, though.
Sky temple
My team drafts:
Tyrande Anubarak Jaina Valla Me: Uther
Enemy team at that point:
Johanna Butcher Raynor Malfurion (last guy drafts tassadar in response to my uther)
I had preselected abathur from right off the bat, so I felt a little miffed at the first pick tyrande since I generally am not confident with her on my teams with abathur. By the time it came around to me, I was generally thinking:
* Tyrande isn't quite good enough to heal solo * cc will combo well with tyrande and anub backed up by valla/jaina.
Pretty much every team fight involved anubarak and jaina going fairly far forward, getting killed very easily, and then the rest of our lineup folding hard. The tyrande blamed me for the loss: she felt that she could heal solo and that a tank would have been much better. Jaina also blamed me for the loss, saying that I should have gone with an assassin since our comp simply didn't have enough damage.
I'm left not knowing if there was a correct choice for my draft, since I don't think the 4 characters I was presented with worked well together. What do you all think?
Definitely had enough damage but I'd probably go Muradin for more tankyness at the front and to slow down Raynor/Butcher. He also has the stun for the combo. I think Tyrande is good enough for healing Valla/Jaina since they have so little HP anyway and the tanks don't really need the healing.
The solo tank Anub is what really stands out as the problem on your team comp-wise. Someone should have said something. I'd probably have taken some kind of bruiser hero with built in sustain like Thrall or Artanis. Tyrael and Sonya could work, too. Dive in with Anub and erase a fool. Still a bad situation, though.
On October 25 2015 14:03 MotherFox wrote: Fought twice tonight on mines where my team got tassadar and sylvanas. Really feels like something needs to change about this map, but I'm not sure what: both games were complete bloodbaths.
Just needs Hammer/Zagara on the other side and no one enters the mines in order to get some benefit out of Sylv and Tassadar haha. But Sylv and Tassadar do that with evrey map where a boss pushes ai controlled, not just Mines.
As for the Uther draft, I think it was fine to conter butcher that way. I would say Anub got really lucky, Enemy team had nothing to deal with his beetles. So you had an army of tanks. And if he would Cocoon Tassadar, your team could blow everything up that had a hunters mark. But it sounds to me like Anub just wanted to dive, and 2 of your damage dealers thought, they would have to select a target to kill. So mostly bad coordination, probably Tyrande being meh with another healer pick. So she didn't played her best.
As for Tyrande, if she has 2 tanks (which you shouldn't do against Raynor/Butcher), she can go for Battle Momentum and Shadowstalk suddenly becomes a use 2 or more times per fight ability.
On October 25 2015 14:03 MotherFox wrote: Fought twice tonight on mines where my team got tassadar and sylvanas. Really feels like something needs to change about this map, but I'm not sure what: both games were complete bloodbaths.
Just needs Hammer/Zagara on the other side and no one enters the mines in order to get some benefit out of Sylv and Tassadar haha. But Sylv and Tassadar do that with evrey map where a boss pushes ai controlled, not just Mines.
I need you to unpack this comment for me a bit, since I'd like to understand what to do if the enemy team ever drafts sylv/tass.
* Are you saying with sylv your team shouldn't enter the mines? My teams always go get between a 40 and 60 golem, then go start pushing. [Though in one of my games there was a nazeebo who did not go into the mines, and actually managed to kill our defense fort]
* Is hammer so you can poke at sylv safely while the golem is pushing, or to counter push strongly?
As for the uther draft, after reading everyone's feedback I'm coming away with this:
* Tyrande can soloheal IF the team has good sustain heroes * Muradin was probably the correct choice for me on this draft, since he sustains to help the weak support and is extra tankiness to help anub, who is a weak solo tank. * This is the second time a drafting puzzle I've brought to these boards resulted in a "you probably should have picked muradin", so maybe I'm not thinking of muradin nearly enough. [which is odd, since he is one of my better tanks]
People play atrociously against Butcher, it takes several lost fights and tons of coaching to get them to wait for Butcher to dive. You have the team to win the poke war and wait for them to dive, yet people will just dive and get slaughtered anyway.
I think your Uther pick was fine. You get Shrink Ray for the Butcher, extra stun to counter him, and once he's down, Anub can chase down anyone.
But it's hard to get a team to fight correctly. Their team comp is easy to play, they just dive in mindlessly and hope for the best. Yours requires teamwork, and that requires a lot of typing and willful allies. But should you get to level 20, you should destroy them every fight. Bait the Butcher to dive, erase him, Shadowstalk and kill 1-2 more.
So maybe Diablo or Muradin would have been better picks, simply so your team understands what it's supposed to do. Because as it is, if Anub plays like lots of Anub play (diving in all the time) because that's how he's always "lead" his team, you can't win. Maybe with a 2nd Warrior you can convince him to let you engage.
But I think this is overthinking it. Nobody could get your superior team (on paper) to play properly, so you lost.
Yeah, in my mind that was how teamfights were going to go down. In reality once butcher charged, I was the only one with a stun left--- so instead of a 4x chain stun with jaina/valla backup, it was a single stun which sometimes helped people escape--- but not usually.
On October 24 2015 05:36 MotherFox wrote: ok--- I tested it in try mode. You don't get a shield with bioshield+couples therapy. No wonder I've never noticed that interaction before
Glad I didn't insist I was right then ^^.
I didn't realize that Caduceus Reactor gave a shield until someone said something about it.
On October 25 2015 14:03 MotherFox wrote: Fought twice tonight on mines where my team got tassadar and sylvanas. Really feels like something needs to change about this map, but I'm not sure what: both games were complete bloodbaths.
I got a 1v3 against golem with Tassadar and finished with a full health fort. IMBA Hehe.
On October 26 2015 01:06 MotherFox wrote: Yeah, in my mind that was how teamfights were going to go down. In reality once butcher charged, I was the only one with a stun left--- so instead of a 4x chain stun with jaina/valla backup, it was a single stun which sometimes helped people escape--- but not usually.
My personal favorite counter to Butcher is just getting Zeratul for VP. If he activates Furnace Blast, you just VP him as he's charging in and reset positioning after such a huge heroic has been wasted . If he gets smart and uses it once he actually hits the charge, you just VP the rest of the team and kill Butcher.
god, I can't land vps to save my life anymore. I basically can't play zeratul now that he's been nerfed. To make it worse, I always THINK I've asked the game to land a vp, but I guess I click out of range then issue another command and I just never get a vp at all
I, thinking about the game yesterday--- pick muradin instead of tassadar when my teammate locks in diablo as solo support. As soon as I pick muradin tyrande says GG, we can't win without heals.
We do win, for reasons outlined above--- we still had enough sustain with my self heals--- but geez I get raged at no matter what I draft it feels.
Compounding my frustration is I asked before diablo locked in if diablo was good as a solo tank, and the player who picked him said "probably not", then locked in anyway.
On October 26 2015 02:12 MotherFox wrote: To make it worse, I always THINK I've asked the game to land a vp, but I guess I click out of range then issue another command and I just never get a vp at all
Same here >_< I know the range has been reduced, but whenever I'm going to VP I make sure I'm closer to the target now and yet it never triggers cause I cancel it with another command right afterwards. I end up just using VP like once a game and it makes me look really nooby, need a lot more practice to get it right. I've even started using Alt + R to put it down since basically you have to put it on yourself now anyway, the range reduction is extreme.
On October 26 2015 03:06 MotherFox wrote: I just can't win. Today:
Tyrande Raynor Nazeebo Diablo (Me)
Enemy team KT jaina monk leoric.
Isn't this a great spot for ETC? Diablo + ETC is super scary, and their only way to deal with Mosh Pit is KT. You land a good one, and Raynor will just delete them all. Meanwhile, Monk dies in 2-3s max if either Diablo or ETC land a CC on him.
Plus, ETC has enough AoE heal to fill in for Tyrande.
ETC sounds good, though I have decided I am not confident enough with him to play him in HL yet. I think I need to dedicate a block of 10 or so QM games before I start playing him for real.
I've been doing fine with zera, oddly even when VP was awesome, I didn't actually cast it that often, so the its weakening hasn't hurt me as much. I'm liking shield focus as tass, does so well at supporting the team. His lowered mana costs from the patch buffs have really helped.
Force Wall is now my go-to heroic with Tass, and it's badass. If you have good followup, especially melee... it can absolutely wreck. Had a game with a Butcher and Sonya on our team, my Force Walls shutting out Kael'thas etc makes for such an easy kill. And a 3 man trap with furnace blast... oh my.
Thanks again for all the advice guys. Since I began posting drafting dilemmas here on the forums, I have gone up 6 ranks. I think your advice and thoughts have helped avert some of the tragic mistakes I was making.
On October 26 2015 07:24 MotherFox wrote: Thanks again for all the advice guys. Since I began posting drafting dilemmas here on the forums, I have gone up 6 ranks. I think your advice and thoughts have helped avert some of the tragic mistakes I was making.
It's nice reading other people's analysis for me too, so thanks for posting the scenarios. We can all learn by talking things through I guess (especially that Muradin is just that good ;-)).
I'm starting to wonder whether, as good as Suppression Pulse is, Purifier Beam is simply better in almost all circumstances. You can blow up damn near anyone with it as long as they can't blink/dash away. More often than not, I've been using it to assassinate tanks and bruisers in teamfights as opposed to trying to hit someone in the back line. The results have been very satisfying. And of course, Purifier Beam is batshit crazy with the level 20 upgrade.
On October 26 2015 14:05 xDaunt wrote: I'm starting to wonder whether, as good as Suppression Pulse is, Purifier Beam is simply better in almost all circumstances. You can blow up damn near anyone with it as long as they can't blink/dash away. More often than not, I've been using it to assassinate tanks and bruisers in teamfights as opposed to trying to hit someone in the back line. The results have been very satisfying. And of course, Purifier Beam is batshit crazy with the level 20 upgrade.
I guess it depends on the team. For an Illidan comp or one of those crazy all-in bruiser comps, Suppression Pulse might be better in order to disengage or turn a fight around. I dunno. Seems like both are amazing, honestly. There's no reason why they should have a global cast range, but I'm happy with it, I guess hehe.
On October 26 2015 14:05 xDaunt wrote: I'm starting to wonder whether, as good as Suppression Pulse is, Purifier Beam is simply better in almost all circumstances. You can blow up damn near anyone with it as long as they can't blink/dash away. More often than not, I've been using it to assassinate tanks and bruisers in teamfights as opposed to trying to hit someone in the back line. The results have been very satisfying. And of course, Purifier Beam is batshit crazy with the level 20 upgrade.
A fun quick match combo I had the other day was Nova + Artanis vs Abathur. I'd just have Nova give me sight and I'd lock on Abathur with my Beam and roast him. After the second time he didn't even leave the fountain.
Also on a similar note but I don't see Novas do it too often. You find Murky's egg. Just make a mental note of it or better yet camera hotkey it. You wait for Murky to die. You just Precision Strike the egg. I'm not 100% sure it kills the egg if Assault Egg was taken but it does if that talent was not selected. As long as you can find the egg anytime Murky suffers a 5s death you can make him suffer a real death. I'm not sure it is 100% worthwhile pre-20 when you can get a second PS charge but it is fun at least.
On October 27 2015 01:44 karazax wrote: Feels like we should be getting a preview of who the next hero is going to be by now.
Well Artanis technically is released tomorrow, so then Blizzard will probably reveal 2-3 heroes at blizzcon, with one coming out the 17th or 24th in November. I'm thinking Zul'jin or Cho'Gall is next.
On October 27 2015 01:44 karazax wrote: Feels like we should be getting a preview of who the next hero is going to be by now.
Well Artanis technically is released tomorrow, so then Blizzard will probably reveal 2-3 heroes at blizzcon, with one coming out the 17th or 24th in November. I'm thinking Zul'jin or Cho'Gall is next.
On October 27 2015 01:44 karazax wrote: Feels like we should be getting a preview of who the next hero is going to be by now.
Well Artanis technically is released tomorrow, so then Blizzard will probably reveal 2-3 heroes at blizzcon, with one coming out the 17th or 24th in November. I'm thinking Zul'jin or Cho'Gall is next.
My guess is at least one new SC2 hero and also an starcraft event, with SC2 themed maps to come.
On October 27 2015 01:44 karazax wrote: Feels like we should be getting a preview of who the next hero is going to be by now.
Well Artanis technically is released tomorrow, so then Blizzard will probably reveal 2-3 heroes at blizzcon, with one coming out the 17th or 24th in November. I'm thinking Zul'jin or Cho'Gall is next.
My guess is at least one new SC2 hero and also an starcraft event, with SC2 themed maps to come.
Unless they were playing coy, they've already stated there's not going to be an SC event to go along with LotV (despite how obvious that should be).
Of these, we already have Jaina, Kael'thas, Rexxar, Sylvanas, Thrall, Artanis, Butcher, Leoric and TLV. So it would stand to reason they weren't fucking around with the other ones either, and we'll get them soon enough. That said, there was no indication of Johanna, Kharazim or Morales, for instance, so there may be unexpected ones out of these too.
But yes, there is an Overmind in there. How exactly that would work only Blizzard knows. I would guess it would be similar to Abathur.
It just seems like such a no-brainer to convert the WC3-inspired ones like Maiev, Vashj, Guldan, Blademaster.
Magni might be a little hard considering Muradin and since there's a Magni skin that might actually have been his ultimate fate.
Anyways, it'll be really exciting to see what happens. At Gamescon they revealed 4 heroes (I can't remember how many were for the first time though). So it's not too much to hope for at least 4 hero reveals at Blizzcon right? Right?!
On October 27 2015 02:49 Wuster wrote: It just seems like such a no-brainer to convert the WC3-inspired ones like Maiev, Vashj, Guldan, Blademaster.
Magni might be a little hard considering Muradin and since there's a Magni skin that might actually have been his ultimate fate.
Anyways, it'll be really exciting to see what happens. At Gamescon they revealed 4 heroes (I can't remember how many were for the first time though). So it's not too much to hope for at least 4 hero reveals at Blizzcon right? Right?!
Maiev has already been turned into a skin.
Also, I don't expect a hero to be made using a name belonging exclusively to a non-current instalment of a Blizzard series (ie. SC1 and D2) for obvious reasons. A skin at the most.
On October 27 2015 02:49 Wuster wrote: It just seems like such a no-brainer to convert the WC3-inspired ones like Maiev, Vashj, Guldan, Blademaster.
Magni might be a little hard considering Muradin and since there's a Magni skin that might actually have been his ultimate fate.
Anyways, it'll be really exciting to see what happens. At Gamescon they revealed 4 heroes (I can't remember how many were for the first time though). So it's not too much to hope for at least 4 hero reveals at Blizzcon right? Right?!
Maiev has already been turned into a skin.
Also, I don't expect a hero to be made using a name belonging exclusively to a non-current instalment of a Blizzard series (ie. SC1 and D2) for obvious reasons. A skin at the most.
Forgot abut Tyrande's skin, but technically it's Warden Tyrande, so there's still hope for Maiev. After all Betrayer Malfurion and Shan-do Illidan shows how willing Blizz is to confuse the hell out of us (and the Warden skin is part of that set even).
You might be right about D2 heroes, with the Amazon skin for Nova. But who knows, Tassadar isn't exactly a SC2 character other than as a ghost/flashbacks. And SC2 brought back Duran from BW even though 'every knows' they're retconning BW out, so it's not like they're totally ignoring the existing of their back catalog.
I realize it would probably be a stupid mechanic, but I thought a samir duran skin with an ult which lets him become a copy of target enemy hero would be amusing.
On October 27 2015 03:08 Hier wrote: [Also, I don't expect a hero to be made using a name belonging exclusively to a non-current instalment of a Blizzard series (ie. SC1 and D2) for obvious reasons. A skin at the most.
Uther, Tassadar, Rehgar (WC3 Shaman), Brightwing (WC3 FD), Non-demon Illidan all say hi.
A bunch more are the WC3 (or in one case, D2) earlier versions of themselves.
On October 27 2015 03:06 Valiver wrote: Maiev is the hero I most want added, but with the tyrande skin, it probably won't happen
On October 27 2015 03:08 Hier wrote: Also, I don't expect a hero to be made using a name belonging exclusively to a non-current instalment of a Blizzard series (ie. SC1 and D2) for obvious reasons. A skin at the most.
Uther, Tassadar, Rehgar (WC3 Shaman), Brightwing (WC3 FD), Non-demon Illidan all say hi.
A bunch more are the WC3 (or in one case, D2) earlier versions of themselves.
Tassadar is in SC2. Rehgar didn't even appear until after WoW. All other Warcraft characters (or in one instance species) have significant presence in WoW and other ongoing Warcraft material.
On October 27 2015 05:48 MotherFox wrote: Not long ago azmodan was tier 1 on a few people's tier lists, but it seems he has had a fall from grace. was his rework that big of a nerf?
or did people just figure out how to stop dunk stacking?
I'm not sure Azmodan was ever considered Tier 1 outside of the pro scene. You have to have a very coordinated team to make Azmodan work.
On October 27 2015 03:17 Wuster wrote: 'every knows' they're retconning BW out
Whuh?
I wish they'd retcon Brood War out, but they're quite clearly keeping it in. Hell, with Infested Stukov in Heart of the Swarm, they're apparently even keeping Resurrection IV in canon, and I don't know than anybody actually wanted that.
I wouldn't despair of getting characters who've inspired skins though. Sometimes they just want to give a character a different look, like they've already given both Valla and Diablo Tyrael skins, despite Tyrael being in the game. As long as the hero itself plays different, there's probably still a chance.
I wouldn't think much of the chances for Terran Kerrigan/Samir Duran/Gabriel Tosh/any other Ghost though.
On October 27 2015 03:17 Wuster wrote: 'every knows' they're retconning BW out
Whuh?
I wish they'd retcon Brood War out, but they're quite clearly keeping it in. Hell, with Infested Stukov in Heart of the Swarm, they're apparently even keeping Resurrection IV in canon, and I don't know than anybody actually wanted that.
I wouldn't despair of getting characters who've inspired skins though. Sometimes they just want to give a character a different look, like they've already given both Valla and Diablo Tyrael skins, despite Tyrael being in the game. As long as the hero itself plays different, there's probably still a chance.
I wouldn't think much of the chances for Terran Kerrigan/Samir Duran/Gabriel Tosh/any other Ghost though.
I mean back when WoL came out there were a lot of threads about how Blizzard was intentionally retconning BW - Raynor forgiving Kerrigan, the fact that the UED doesn't have any influence on the current story, ect. That's why I put it in quotes, because the argument that BW was being retconned seemed selection bias at best since clearly a lot of BW made it into SC2 (like ignoring Hybrids and pretending Dr. Narud wasn't Duran).
Well they also say Kerrigan was sooo evil in BW and had nothing human left. While in the ending, she finds a good excuse to not kill everyone. Games usually just leave alot open to interpretation, thats why people get so different opinions on something. For me it was just natural how Kerrigan and Raynor progressed throughout Sc2, with what i knew from Sc1 about them.
I felt like Mengsk lost some edge though. But I guess he didn't want to give up his power.
And I agree give some love to Zuljin, he was around since Warcraft 2!
The only thing that really rubbed me the wrong way about the SC2 storyline (silliness aside) was the reimagination of the Overmind's motives for its actions in SC.
From what i remember, Raynor was pretty pissed with Kerrigan when she murdered Phoenix in the BW "True Colors" mission. But at the same time, he could never forgive himself for letting her behind in SC, so its understandable. Still too gay for my taste and i predict this saga will end with a cliche alliance of Terrans, Protoss and Zergs.
Artanis as a zealot in HOTS also surprised me, since he was always piloting his Scout. Till i realize there is no one else alive to take the Zealot role, kkk. I wish the next support hero will be Anduin Llane Wrynn =)
Found the Overmind/Tassadar thing a bit silly as well at first. But its pretty much the same thing as when the topic of "AIs breaking free of the restrictions humans gave them to keep them in line" arises. Just that its biological creations this time around.
And well Tassadar just pulls a StarWars. Post Death saving the galaxy Badassary
And right Valerian became the Terran boss now probably. So Terrans might really be there when the final showdown comes. But making an alliance to beat the worst bad guy up is nothing new in the Sc universe, its common practice lol.
I just want a male barbarian for skin. When i see ugly candy muradin skin my eyes burns...
Also D2 really needs love. Bishibosh-Rakanishu (Rakkanissshuuu), The Smith, The Summoner, Endugu(unfortunately just a skin for Nazeebo), Izual, Nihlathak...
And ofc Andariel, Mephisto and Baal (I hate Duriel. He was soo hard. Holy Freeze is so strong) At least they should give us the real bosses.
First I thought Andariel would be a good skin for Kerrigan, but then I remembered the criticism Nova's skater girl skin got for being overly sexualized, so I dismissed the notion.
On October 27 2015 12:45 Hier wrote: First I thought Andariel would be a good skin for Kerrigan, but then I remembered the criticism Nova's skater girl skin got for being overly sexualized, so I dismissed the notion.
Nova's skater girl costume is fairly realistic to roller derby culture, so I'm not sure that it's unfairly sexualized.
Kerrigan's succubus costume, on the other hand....
On October 27 2015 11:33 FeyFey wrote: And right Valerian became the Terran boss now probably. So Terrans might really be there when the final showdown comes. But making an alliance to beat the worst bad guy up is nothing new in the Sc universe, its common practice lol.
But that's what made the BW campaign so good; most of it wasn't banding together to fight against a greater evil. If you think about the Protoss campaign from Vanilla or the Terran campaign from BW, they were all centered around internal struggles and political conflict rather than wars between species or trying to beat some dark shadow looming beyond the horizon by banding together. Alliances were messy and last minute and were usually either the force of blackmail or ended in betrayal (or Omega, where they just straight up lose cause Kerrigan is a baws).
Yeah Blizzard don't really acknowledge their legacy stuff like SC1, D1/2, WC3 anymore and it's a shame. Of course they need to promote their latest games so it's understandable but there are so many cool heroes they could take from the older games. Or well, at least their designs. And I don't like how they just created a random medic character when there already are plenty of well known medics from the games. Like at least Sonya, Valla and the rest are the actual D3 characters and not some new random guys.
And the Necromancer has three quest/events in D3. Like I said the idea that Blizzard is ignoring their history is selective bias at best (and completely ignores all the callbacks in WoW). The thing is, they can't just rehash everything again and again so certain stuff is going to be left behind.
On October 27 2015 11:33 FeyFey wrote: And right Valerian became the Terran boss now probably. So Terrans might really be there when the final showdown comes. But making an alliance to beat the worst bad guy up is nothing new in the Sc universe, its common practice lol.
But that's what made the BW campaign so good; most of it wasn't banding together to fight against a greater evil. If you think about the Protoss campaign from Vanilla or the Terran campaign from BW, they were all centered around internal struggles and political conflict rather than wars between species or trying to beat some dark shadow looming beyond the horizon by banding together. Alliances were messy and last minute and were usually either the force of blackmail or ended in betrayal (or Omega, where they just straight up lose cause Kerrigan is a baws).
For me the whole of Sc1 was banding together with lesser evils to beat up the big evil, so can't relate to that. But in Sc1 you also had the you are helping a bad guy to beat up a bad guy theme. In Sc2 its a giant march to purge every evil. Lost hope Kerrigan, Duran and Mengsk. But thats because unlike in Sc1 in Sc2 you are one of 3(4) heroes. Not just some faceless Commander that does what his current boss tells him. And because they want to close out there Story.
So I really think they should change back to that perspective.
As for evil Blizzard neglecting their old games. I don't recall many other developers that offer their old games for free. On that note, just imagine they would bring Kyle Blackthorne into Heroes lol.
On October 28 2015 02:40 Hier wrote: None of it is selective bias... Freezard gets it.
Cain being in all 3 Diablo games, Medivh (who's from WC1!) and Alleria (someone people like to harp on as forgotten by Blizz too) being skins in Hearthstone, Uther being in every Warcraft property since WC2. SC2 continuing with the Hybrids and Duran as the ultimate threat from BW. Sure a lot of hushing up their legacy stuff.
There's been a lot of continuity between the different installments, but things also change by necessity. Sorry your favorite character didn't make the transition.
On October 28 2015 02:40 Hier wrote: None of it is selective bias... Freezard gets it.
Cain being in all 3 Diablo games, Medivh (who's from WC1!) and Alleria (someone people like to harp on as forgotten by Blizz too) being skins in Hearthstone, Uther being in every Warcraft property since WC2. SC2 continuing with the Hybrids and Duran as the ultimate threat from BW. Sure a lot of hushing up their legacy stuff.
There's been a lot of continuity between the different installments, but things also change by necessity. Sorry your favorite character didn't make the transition.
In my original post I said a name belonging exclusively to a non-current instalment. So far there are no counter examples. Come on man.
On October 28 2015 02:40 Hier wrote: None of it is selective bias... Freezard gets it.
Cain being in all 3 Diablo games, Medivh (who's from WC1!) and Alleria (someone people like to harp on as forgotten by Blizz too) being skins in Hearthstone, Uther being in every Warcraft property since WC2. SC2 continuing with the Hybrids and Duran as the ultimate threat from BW. Sure a lot of hushing up their legacy stuff.
There's been a lot of continuity between the different installments, but things also change by necessity. Sorry your favorite character didn't make the transition.
In my original post I said a name belonging exclusively to a non-current instalment. So far there are no counter examples. Come on man.
The Lost Vikings was offered as a counterexample by someone.
On October 28 2015 02:40 Hier wrote: None of it is selective bias... Freezard gets it.
Cain being in all 3 Diablo games, Medivh (who's from WC1!) and Alleria (someone people like to harp on as forgotten by Blizz too) being skins in Hearthstone, Uther being in every Warcraft property since WC2. SC2 continuing with the Hybrids and Duran as the ultimate threat from BW. Sure a lot of hushing up their legacy stuff.
There's been a lot of continuity between the different installments, but things also change by necessity. Sorry your favorite character didn't make the transition.
In my original post I said a name belonging exclusively to a non-current instalment. So far there are no counter examples. Come on man.
The Lost Vikings was offered as a counterexample by someone.
You don't really understand what I mean by "non-current instalment". There is no The Lost Vikings 2 featuring Bill, Rob, and Don instead of Olaf, Erik, and Baleog.
On October 28 2015 02:40 Hier wrote: None of it is selective bias... Freezard gets it.
Cain being in all 3 Diablo games, Medivh (who's from WC1!) and Alleria (someone people like to harp on as forgotten by Blizz too) being skins in Hearthstone, Uther being in every Warcraft property since WC2. SC2 continuing with the Hybrids and Duran as the ultimate threat from BW. Sure a lot of hushing up their legacy stuff.
There's been a lot of continuity between the different installments, but things also change by necessity. Sorry your favorite character didn't make the transition.
In my original post I said a name belonging exclusively to a non-current instalment. So far there are no counter examples. Come on man.
The Lost Vikings was offered as a counterexample by someone.
You don't really understand what I mean by "non-current instalment". There is no The Lost Vikings 2 featuring Bill, Rob, and Don instead of Olaf, Erik, and Baleog.
Also like I said, Diablo is the diablo from Diablo 2, not diablo 3. They were very different in appearance and fighting abilities, and were by definition different people since the soulstone is the common element.
Unless I'm still not understanding what you mean by non-current.
On October 28 2015 02:40 Hier wrote: None of it is selective bias... Freezard gets it.
Cain being in all 3 Diablo games, Medivh (who's from WC1!) and Alleria (someone people like to harp on as forgotten by Blizz too) being skins in Hearthstone, Uther being in every Warcraft property since WC2. SC2 continuing with the Hybrids and Duran as the ultimate threat from BW. Sure a lot of hushing up their legacy stuff.
There's been a lot of continuity between the different installments, but things also change by necessity. Sorry your favorite character didn't make the transition.
In my original post I said a name belonging exclusively to a non-current instalment. So far there are no counter examples. Come on man.
Freezard wasn't qualifying his statement that way, he made a blanket statement that Blizzard likes to ignore their legacy.
Uther's been dead throughout WoW, so it seems odd that you just want to disqualify him. Sure his spirit shows up in a quest from Vanilla (long since removed iirc) but he has no involvement in any stories since then (unlike Obi-Tassadar in SC2).
Also, Vikings being from the latest iteration of a 15-year old game... that's pretty selective man.
Edit: Besides I don't really buy the argument that they have to use a hero from non-current games to honor their legacy to begin with. Not when they've already been carrying certain characters forward and old ones pop back up again all the time (like Alleria in Hearthstone and Garona showing up Cataclysm, Chen in Mists of Pandaria).
Well I meant in the context of HotS. I'm not too familiar with the WC games, but when I look at the heroes from the Diablo/SC franchises they're almost always based on their last iteration. An exception is Diablo whose artistic design is based on D2 and Apocalypse is from D1 I guess. But the rest of his abilities and his trait are based on D3. The Butcher and Leoric are almost taken straight from D3 itself. And how come the five Diablo main characters in HotS are all from D3? Why didn't they make the D2 barb or the necromancer instead of the witch doctor? Why did they use Banshees for Raynor's ulti when his signature vehicle in SC1 was the Vulture? If they're going to give Lt. Morales a grenade, why not the blind grenades that medics had in BW?
Anyway like I said this is the case since they want to sell their latest games and they're also more proud of the work they've done on them compared to the prequels. I even read in an interview that nowadays they laugh when they look back at the units sounds from BW because they think they're horrible compared to SC2, which makes me sad cause I think the other way around.
On October 28 2015 02:40 Hier wrote: None of it is selective bias... Freezard gets it.
Cain being in all 3 Diablo games, Medivh (who's from WC1!) and Alleria (someone people like to harp on as forgotten by Blizz too) being skins in Hearthstone, Uther being in every Warcraft property since WC2. SC2 continuing with the Hybrids and Duran as the ultimate threat from BW. Sure a lot of hushing up their legacy stuff.
There's been a lot of continuity between the different installments, but things also change by necessity. Sorry your favorite character didn't make the transition.
In my original post I said a name belonging exclusively to a non-current instalment. So far there are no counter examples. Come on man.
Freezard wasn't qualifying his statement that way, he made a blanket statement that Blizzard likes to ignore their legacy.
Uther's been dead throughout WoW, so it seems odd that you just want to disqualify him. Sure his spirit shows up in a quest from Vanilla (long since removed iirc) but he has no involvement in any stories since then (unlike Obi-Tassadar in SC2).
Also, Vikings being from the latest iteration of a 15-year old game... that's pretty selective man.
Edit: Besides I don't really buy the argument that they have to use a hero from non-current games to honor their legacy to begin with. Not when they've already been carrying certain characters forward and old ones pop back up again all the time (like Alleria in Hearthstone and Garona showing up Cataclysm, Chen in Mists of Pandaria).
There is, literally, nothing selective about what I'm saying. My statement, in its original form, could not be more comprehensive and concise. Stop making an argument out of a fact. I am not advocating the creation of a hero using a character not appearing in the latest game within a series; I am responding to people that are hoping for it. It has not happened until now, and thus will probably not happen; this is supported by monetary reasoning. I never said Vikings get disqualified by the rule, time isn't a factor. Blizzard simply needed a hero with Meepo's mechanics. WoW is also not a technical sequel to Warcraft 3, it is more of an extension to it; World of Starcraft would not be a sequel to Starcraft 2. That's why I only mentioned Starcraft and Diablo 2. Diablo's art is also a non-factor. It's really that simple, don't make it overly complicated.
matchmaking in heroleague has been absolutely amazing this week, or is it just me? Once I got past the rank 30 pool of potatoes every match has been action packed and nail biting to the end.
On October 28 2015 10:28 MotherFox wrote: matchmaking in heroleague has been absolutely amazing this week, or is it just me? Once I got past the rank 30 pool of potatoes every match has been action packed and nail biting to the end.
I shouldn't have said anything. Tonight I got soooo many complainers. It's like even when we're winning, we're losing. Multiple teams that think abathur is bad specifically on cursed hollow, that double warrior comps are bad, etc, etc.
Yeah it's pretty common for people to not like double warrior. They want as much damage as possible. Many people think that if you get Jaina and Kael'thas, it's already gg.
I've learned that drafting however I want is much more successful than drafting "properly". For example, a game on Infernal Shrines. I reccomend that the first pick doesn't draft The Lost Vikings, which he agrees with, reluctantly, and picks Tyrande. The others had pre-picked Thrall and Kael'Thas.
We end up with Tyrande, Thrall, Nazeebo and Jaina. I'm last pick. They all want me to go tank. Ostensibly, I should go tank.
Instead, I type "fuck it, yolo" into the lobby chat and pick Tassadar. For the record, the team were all about 10 ranks below me. I get a huge load of hate "omg fuck u" "y would u do this" "wow welcome 2 lose" etc etc.
Needless to say, we dominate them, 40-8 in kills, and win the game easily. At the end, one of them, the Thrall I think, even said "gg, sorry". The Nazeebo wasn't so forthcoming with the "gg all except Tass".
Most amusing. Similarly, some Russian had prepicked Sylvanas a last pick. She's my main, and I picked her. He was like "wow fuck you Larkin". I proceed to top all stats and we win comfortably.
Okay, screw Suppression Pulse on Artanis. Take Purifier Beam every game with Artanis and go for the Level 20 upgrade. Just ask SC2John, Valiver, and MotherFox.
On October 28 2015 14:48 xDaunt wrote: Okay, screw Suppression Pulse on Artanis. Take Purifier Beam every game with Artanis and go for the Level 20 upgrade. Just ask SC2John, Valiver, and MotherFox.
On October 28 2015 13:39 Larkin wrote: Yeah it's pretty common for people to not like double warrior. They want as much damage as possible. Many people think that if you get Jaina and Kael'thas, it's already gg.
I've learned that drafting however I want is much more successful than drafting "properly". For example, a game on Infernal Shrines. I reccomend that the first pick doesn't draft The Lost Vikings, which he agrees with, reluctantly, and picks Tyrande. The others had pre-picked Thrall and Kael'Thas.
We end up with Tyrande, Thrall, Nazeebo and Jaina. I'm last pick. They all want me to go tank. Ostensibly, I should go tank.
Instead, I type "fuck it, yolo" into the lobby chat and pick Tassadar. For the record, the team were all about 10 ranks below me. I get a huge load of hate "omg fuck u" "y would u do this" "wow welcome 2 lose" etc etc.
Needless to say, we dominate them, 40-8 in kills, and win the game easily. At the end, one of them, the Thrall I think, even said "gg, sorry". The Nazeebo wasn't so forthcoming with the "gg all except Tass".
Most amusing. Similarly, some Russian had prepicked Sylvanas a last pick. She's my main, and I picked her. He was like "wow fuck you Larkin". I proceed to top all stats and we win comfortably.
*shrugs*
Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.
This scares me the most to play Hero League. Tass and Nova are so hated there while Artanis or Abathur are ok though they are at the bottom of rankings. People are so stereotyped.
Hope, Blizzard will buff Tassadar somehow so he'll get some respect.
On October 28 2015 05:44 MotherFox wrote: can't wait for the corsair heroes unit that can only put down blind fields and attack mutalisks and banshees! :D
Can't wait for Deckard Cain hero that will tell enemy heroes "Stay a while and listen" and they will stay for a while and listen.
On October 28 2015 05:44 MotherFox wrote: can't wait for the corsair heroes unit that can only put down blind fields and attack mutalisks and banshees! :D
Can't wait for Deckard Cain hero that will tell enemy heroes "Stay a while and listen" and they will stay for a while and listen.
I'm thinking the Smith, Griswold? with some supportive abilities (attack damage, shields) and his ult beeing "Wirts Leg" and "Anvil of Fury"
On October 28 2015 13:39 Larkin wrote: Yeah it's pretty common for people to not like double warrior. They want as much damage as possible. Many people think that if you get Jaina and Kael'thas, it's already gg.
I've learned that drafting however I want is much more successful than drafting "properly". For example, a game on Infernal Shrines. I reccomend that the first pick doesn't draft The Lost Vikings, which he agrees with, reluctantly, and picks Tyrande. The others had pre-picked Thrall and Kael'Thas.
We end up with Tyrande, Thrall, Nazeebo and Jaina. I'm last pick. They all want me to go tank. Ostensibly, I should go tank.
Instead, I type "fuck it, yolo" into the lobby chat and pick Tassadar. For the record, the team were all about 10 ranks below me. I get a huge load of hate "omg fuck u" "y would u do this" "wow welcome 2 lose" etc etc.
Needless to say, we dominate them, 40-8 in kills, and win the game easily. At the end, one of them, the Thrall I think, even said "gg, sorry". The Nazeebo wasn't so forthcoming with the "gg all except Tass".
Most amusing. Similarly, some Russian had prepicked Sylvanas a last pick. She's my main, and I picked her. He was like "wow fuck you Larkin". I proceed to top all stats and we win comfortably.
*shrugs*
Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.
This scares me the most to play Hero League. Tass and Nova are so hated there while Artanis or Abathur are ok though they are at the bottom of rankings. People are so stereotyped.
Hope, Blizzard will buff Tassadar somehow so he'll get some respect.
Tassadar's already been buffed and has been doing well in recent tournaments. The average hero league player who isn't at the top of the ranks is often clueless on what heroes are good picks. That and some of the heroes just shine in unorganized play and others are really hard to have success with in randomized teams with no voice chat. Like Li Li has a great win rate in hero league because the average team doesn't consistently shut down cups with an interrupt and she is very forgiving if you make mistakes with positioning. In a pro game cups would virtually never go full duration. Tempo Storm Dreadnought explains this in depth in this video explaining why Li Li has a high win rate, but is never the "best" pick in an organized play setting:
Good video. I hate how people look at win rates from 3rd party sites to justify how good a hero is. I know there was someone here who said Nova has a higher win rate than Valla which makes her better. No, she's not, and the hate for Nova in HL is justified. The new Tassadar on the other hand is freaking awesome and I don't know why he's hated, I guess people are too used to the old mediocre Tassadar to care.
If anyone would pick Artanis in my HL game on the other hand, I would just press the concede button. Possibly the worst hero in the game right now.
On October 29 2015 00:12 Freezard wrote: Good video. I hate how people look at win rates from 3rd party sites to justify how good a hero is. I know there was someone here who said Nova has a higher win rate than Valla which makes her better. No, she's not, and the hate for Nova in HL is justified. The new Tassadar on the other hand is freaking awesome and I don't know why he's hated, I guess people are too used to the old mediocre Tassadar to care.
If anyone would pick Artanis in my HL game on the other hand, I would just press the concede button. Possibly the worst hero in the game right now.
Hah, I should show you my replays. Artanis is a beast if played properly.
On October 29 2015 00:12 Freezard wrote: Good video. I hate how people look at win rates from 3rd party sites to justify how good a hero is. I know there was someone here who said Nova has a higher win rate than Valla which makes her better. No, she's not, and the hate for Nova in HL is justified. The new Tassadar on the other hand is freaking awesome and I don't know why he's hated, I guess people are too used to the old mediocre Tassadar to care.
If anyone would pick Artanis in my HL game on the other hand, I would just press the concede button. Possibly the worst hero in the game right now.
Lol that's not true! Well, maybe it is, but give Artanis a chance mate. I mean the Nova Hate has been developed over, like 6 months or so and 4000 bad Nova players. And now you have seen what? 2-3 bad Artanis and assume that he is as bad? Nono! Don't be that guy!
On October 29 2015 00:12 Freezard wrote: Good video. I hate how people look at win rates from 3rd party sites to justify how good a hero is. I know there was someone here who said Nova has a higher win rate than Valla which makes her better. No, she's not, and the hate for Nova in HL is justified. The new Tassadar on the other hand is freaking awesome and I don't know why he's hated, I guess people are too used to the old mediocre Tassadar to care.
If anyone would pick Artanis in my HL game on the other hand, I would just press the concede button. Possibly the worst hero in the game right now.
Lol that's not true! Well, maybe it is, but give Artanis a chance mate. I mean the Nova Hate has been developed over, like 6 months or so and 4000 bad Nova players. And now you have seen what? 2-3 bad Artanis and assume that he is as bad? Nono! Don't be that guy!
Yeah, most people still aren't playing him well or even talenting him correctly. And his early game is abysmal. But I shit you not, he is the god of the late game. He carries teams so fucking hard once he hits 20. No one else can compete with him.
Artanis is a hard Hero to play correctly, he also kinds of sucks in the early game but he is borderline OP in the lategame. I still think he needs a buff early, but after watching good players play him, and trying him myself I think he is not even half as bad as most players think.
On October 28 2015 10:28 MotherFox wrote: matchmaking in heroleague has been absolutely amazing this week, or is it just me? Once I got past the rank 30 pool of potatoes every match has been action packed and nail biting to the end.
I shouldn't have said anything. Tonight I got soooo many complainers. It's like even when we're winning, we're losing. Multiple teams that think abathur is bad specifically on cursed hollow, that double warrior comps are bad, etc, etc.
My limited experience so far is that at first people are very anal about the meta and tier lists, but after a while people just play what they want to play and trust their team to not pick a hero that flat out sucks either b/c they're forcing a 'tier-1' hero on someone, they just suck at that hero, or their just making a trash pick. I've heard as you get closer to r1 the analness comes back, but around r20 it's still pretty chill.
Last night's hero league was a really good example of that. We get first pick, Tyrael, our fifth preselects Monk, our fourth preselects Zeebo. When it comes back to us I lock in Valla and say 'Team Diablo' and our third dutifully locks Sonya. I stupidly died twice during laning phases and no one says anything. I'm split pushing too hard and go oom (newbie, newbie mistake) while our DK expires and get collapsed on for death 3 and no one calls me out on it either (in fact the nearest guy apologizes for not getting me out of there). Really chill team, we end up rolling the other side past lvl-10, it turns out our team synergized really well and was able to dive anything.
But I don't think their other team was nearly as fun as ours. Their first pick was a mediocre Zag who I felt only picked it b/c 'Zag is good on Dragon Shire'. They also had a Gazlowe who I swear decided halfway through the game 'Screw this I'm afk-pushing bot' because that's what he did when they fell behind a talent tier...
On October 28 2015 14:48 xDaunt wrote: Okay, screw Suppression Pulse on Artanis. Take Purifier Beam every game with Artanis and go for the Level 20 upgrade. Just ask SC2John, Valiver, and MotherFox.
They witnessed.
From the skill preview I didn't see how Supression Pulse wouldn't be the 99% pick, but in game.. it's really not that scary. Sure it's hard to avoid, but the damage is pitiful and I hardly care if I'm blinded for a few seconds while I reposition away from Artanis (he's gotten a lot less scary as people get used to avoiding the return swipe on blade dash... also he's not unstoppable during it which surprised me).
Purifier Beam on the other hand... people are bad at moving out of it (I played WoW, I should have known this already) and it does splash damage to everything, so you almost always get some value out of it.
BTW, when do you guys play (and do you guys hangout in the TL channel)? I would love to play some people who post here sometime.
I'm pretty sure my games with xDaunt on Artanis are like 15-2 or something like that, and half of those games we were losing horribly until the very end where we just completely crushed with level 20 Artanis beam.
I was on cursed hollow last night before resigning myself to QM games. Despite uther and raynor not showing up to the curse fights on time (or at all in one case), and jaina continually going in and losing half her health bar before the fight even started, she raged at me for half the game for taking abathur and how the map was impossible without a 5th body for teamfights. That's the kind of stuff I was not accustomed to in the rank 20s that I have hit now that I'm in the teens--- may just stop playing abathur in heroleague altogether, since even when we win it is annoying.
I think the issue here is that many folks on reddit are expanding what he's saying to "lili is not good after all and I can rage against her in heroleague", but her winrate in heroleague is relevant for whether she is the best or good pick in heroleague.
People seem to not be able to distinguish cooperative 5 man stacks from solo queue no-comms hero league. The game plays very differently between the two.
There is definitely a completely different meta between random hero league teams with no comms and pro games. The stats prove that. Li Li is a really easy hero to play well and for that reason and the lack of coordinated CC she is a good hero league pick. Illidan is a hard hero to play well, and even if you are a good illidan player, without the right comp and team support you are limited in effectiveness. With no comms Nova can get away with a lot more than she would if you could just tell your team mates every time you see her moving stealthed or otherwise around the map.
I think with abathur, it's a combination of people having bad experiences with bad abathur players, and people being completely clueless on how abathur plays. I can't remember the last time Abathur was free to play, so there is a huge chunk of the player base who has never played abathur before at all. I've literally had quick matches where team mates were so clueless that they wanted to report Abathur for afking... You are going to get the default blame from some body once the complaining starts any time your team is losing for "only having 4 players", regardless of your contributions. He isn't an easy hero to play well, but he can be the team MVP if you do.
I've also been thinking about what happened that game. For the first curse, both supports stayed top lane. Abathur+3 vs 4 is actually worse ratio wise than Abathur+4 vs 5, so that might have been a contributing factor.
On October 29 2015 00:12 Freezard wrote: Good video. I hate how people look at win rates from 3rd party sites to justify how good a hero is. I know there was someone here who said Nova has a higher win rate than Valla which makes her better. No, she's not, and the hate for Nova in HL is justified. The new Tassadar on the other hand is freaking awesome and I don't know why he's hated, I guess people are too used to the old mediocre Tassadar to care.
If anyone would pick Artanis in my HL game on the other hand, I would just press the concede button. Possibly the worst hero in the game right now.
Lol that's not true! Well, maybe it is, but give Artanis a chance mate. I mean the Nova Hate has been developed over, like 6 months or so and 4000 bad Nova players. And now you have seen what? 2-3 bad Artanis and assume that he is as bad? Nono! Don't be that guy!
Not really basing this on 2-3 bad Artanis, but my win rate vs Artanis was at 80% in my first 40 solo QM games against him. And yeah people ARE playing him badly, that's the thing. People use his Q as a suicide button, when I played ETC I got so many easy kills thanks to the Q. His E is very hard to use effectively in solo queue and then like every Artanis in the world tries to duel me when I'm Illidan which is just dumb. He seems stronger late game, haven't checked out his 20 talents yet, and in organized play he's probably a lot better but in solo queue I prefer not having him on my team.
Ideally if everyone doesn't come, then no one should. Especially with abathur on your side pre-ultimate evolution. Early game as abathur I try to mine all the paths heading from the mid lane both to top and bottom, then throw some more mines around the curse once it shows up to slow and reveal enemies.
It's fine to not go for the first curse, but people should let their team know they aren't coming so they don't go and die for no reason. Diving in and dying to delay them from capping the curse only to find out that no one is coming for the delay to matter is obviously pointless. For all objectives, many players have a bad habit of engaging before waiting for their team to arrive, so they are dead or almost dead by the time help gets there. Even if you are tactically doing the right thing by being at the objective and your team is foolishly not coming promptly, you still need to wait or you are just going to die in vain and still give up the objective with nothing to show for your effort.
On October 29 2015 02:27 karazax wrote: I think with abathur, it's a combination of people having bad experiences with bad abathur players, and people being completely clueless on how abathur plays. I can't remember the last time Abathur was free to play, so there is a huge chunk of the player base who has never played abathur before at all. I've literally had quick matches where team mates were so clueless that they wanted to report Abathur for afking... You are going to get the default blame from some body once the complaining starts any time your team is losing for "only having 4 players", regardless of your contributions. He isn't an easy hero to play well, but he can be the team MVP if you do.
I've only seen Abathur F2P once and it was a few months ago for sure. I think the problem is that he's just hard to play, most Abathurs don't body soak which I admit is something I didn't even think of doing when I played him during that free week, and I think you kind of have to to not fall behind too much since you're only 4vs5 in team fights for objectives. Then everyone seems to have their own build preference and sticks to it regardless of map/composition, at least that's the feeling I get, but mostly I see people going for the push build, a few goes for the mine build and I think the damage build is actually the least common in QM.
On October 29 2015 02:27 karazax wrote: I think with abathur, it's a combination of people having bad experiences with bad abathur players, and people being completely clueless on how abathur plays. I can't remember the last time Abathur was free to play, so there is a huge chunk of the player base who has never played abathur before at all. I've literally had quick matches where team mates were so clueless that they wanted to report Abathur for afking... You are going to get the default blame from some body once the complaining starts any time your team is losing for "only having 4 players", regardless of your contributions. He isn't an easy hero to play well, but he can be the team MVP if you do.
I've only seen Abathur F2P once and it was a few months ago for sure. I think the problem is that he's just hard to play, most Abathurs don't body soak which I admit is something I didn't even think of doing when I played him during that free week, and I think you kind of have to to not fall behind too much since you're only 4vs5 in team fights for objectives. Then everyone seems to have their own build preference and sticks to it regardless of map/composition, at least that's the feeling I get, but mostly I see people going for the push build, a few goes for the mine build and I think the damage build is actually the least common in QM.
Oh man, one hero league game on Garden, I was first pick thinking about my pick. 2nd preselects Illidan, 3rd preselects abby. I figure this is going to be good and lock Monk.
Turns out Abby doesn't body soak, does take Adrenal but is too busy with his Monstrosity to hat me or Illi during a fight and the Illidan plays chicken the entire time (I ended with more hero dmg than him). We had a really good Johanna tanking and a decent Valla and ended up winning. But the comp ended up not working out at all like I expected. It has to be said though, scared Illidan is better than yolo Illidan and we just played a poke game until we found people out of position. So you're right, you can't really assume what Abathur is going to do.
On October 29 2015 03:13 MotherFox wrote: oh hey I just noticed I finally made gold heroleague on hotslogs. It's been a long road from the 700 mmr I started at back in may.
In quick match I have had the best luck with the build in the C9 Fan guide with Abathur regardless of comp. I got a Johanna, Illidan, Li Li, Valla comp quick match the other day which looked perfect to focus on symbiote, but the players turned out to be terrible. It was Haunted mines, so not a great abathur map anyway. Illidan ended up like 4-10 kill/death ratio, team never went any where together, Johanna would solo engage 4-5 opponents in the mines, and li li went with a damage build. At least with a push build I could have had some map pressure. Probably still lose in that game, but sometimes I can carry quick matches with pushes, where symbiote focus relies on your team mates being good to do much of anything. Of course Illidan player blamed it on only having 4 players.
On October 29 2015 02:44 xDaunt wrote: Heh, Dreadnought should have shortened his Lili video to just the following 5-second script:
"Lili only works against retards." *drops the mic*
EDIT: The problem is that this game is full of retards to who fail to do the most rudimentary things such as stopping channeling ults.
So you've noticed that nazeebos doing ravenous spirit frequently don't notice they are being purifier beamed, eh?
It may depend on the team composition you get though. If you don't have a reliable stun available, Li Li and Nazeebo's ults can just wreck face. I've had a team in QM where I was playing Tyrael with a Rehgar, Jaina, Falstad and Valla so we simply had no reliable stuns on the right heroes, almost forcing me to save Judgment just to cancel out Li Li's ult.
As for Nazeebos not paying attention, I remember one game fondly where I was Sylvanas and the only stun we had was on Kael'Thas so not a lot of possibilities to shut down Ravenous other than my silence so I decided to save it a little longer in teamfights to cancel out Ravenous. Sure enough at one point he casts it, I silence it out and Nazeebo just stood there like a statue for like 4-5 seconds not doing anything.
On October 29 2015 02:44 xDaunt wrote: Heh, Dreadnought should have shortened his Lili video to just the following 5-second script:
"Lili only works against retards." *drops the mic*
EDIT: The problem is that this game is full of retards to who fail to do the most rudimentary things such as stopping channeling ults.
I don't know if I'd even put her in that category. I think she has more potential than even top tier teams give her. The issue is Malf is pretty much universally better and fills a pretty similar role. If you're taking Malf that means the other team has Uther which makes Lili a pretty poor choice due to Uther's reliable stun. But in HL if you're getting into the 4-5 pick range and the opponents are light on reliable CC (eg; they took Kara and Leo) Lili makes a fantastic pick here. It isn't that the opponents are "retards" exactly it is just they made a composition in which Lili can thrive as a support. I've been stuck in many games where our only reliable stuns come int he way of Raynor Q at 16 and Valla's ult. Ever since they made it so simple knockbacks won't stop her cups you pretty much have to have a reliable stun on your team if they haven't selected a support.
On October 29 2015 02:44 xDaunt wrote: Heh, Dreadnought should have shortened his Lili video to just the following 5-second script:
"Lili only works against retards." *drops the mic*
EDIT: The problem is that this game is full of retards to who fail to do the most rudimentary things such as stopping channeling ults.
So you've noticed that nazeebos doing ravenous spirit frequently don't notice they are being purifier beamed, eh?
It may depend on the team composition you get though. If you don't have a reliable stun available, Li Li and Nazeebo's ults can just wreck face. I've had a team in QM where I was playing Tyrael with a Rehgar, Jaina, Falstad and Valla so we simply had no reliable stuns on the right heroes, almost forcing me to save Judgment just to cancel out Li Li's ult.
As for Nazeebos not paying attention, I remember one game fondly where I was Sylvanas and the only stun we had was on Kael'Thas so not a lot of possibilities to shut down Ravenous other than my silence so I decided to save it a little longer in teamfights to cancel out Ravenous. Sure enough at one point he casts it, I silence it out and Nazeebo just stood there like a statue for like 4-5 seconds not doing anything.
I had a game where I was also Tyrael. We had no stuns on my team outside of Judgement and they had Lili and Naz. I would just save my R for when Lili would ult and until I got Holy Ground on Tyr we didn't even have a reliable knockback. It was ... rough. But it was a QM game so sometimes that shit happens in QM.
I do not think uther is a good choice to stun out lili's ult. She frequently does it on the back lines, and going that deep means a dead uther usually.
One thing she does do well that other supports do not is 1v1 in the early game. I've found that this is particularly useful on dragon shire, and she is often my go-to support on that map if it's late in the draft and the other team is cc light.
Also, of course, kung fu hustle is probably one of the most powerful lvl 20s in the game. Getting 250% cooldown reduction for 1 second whenever you takes damage means that you can use your ultimate about as often as kael'thas uses pheonix---as long as you appropriately take damage from minions and mercs in between team fights. This is frequently overlooked, turning the ult into a mana efficient refuel skill as long as a team fight won't break out in the next 30-40 seconds.
...
All that sad though, I would still be very hesitant to draft her in HL unless knew the enemy team had strong autoattack and few stuns. Even then, if it's strong melee auto attack uther is probably better. (and if it's illidan, brightwing is possibly better since she's very strong against him)
Lili is more straight forward to play than Uther. Honestly when I see Uther picked in HL I get nervous because there are a *lot* of bad Uther players out there. He's probably the most difficult to play support and when played right can make outstanding plays. When played poorly he heals for jack shit and just dies after he DS's himself. I usually prefer an unknown player on my team to draft Lili. At least there is less chance of being catastrophically bad.
On October 29 2015 04:38 Tenks wrote: Lili is more straight forward to play than Uther. Honestly when I see Uther picked in HL I get nervous because there are a *lot* of bad Uther players out there. He's probably the most difficult to play support and when played right can make outstanding plays. When played poorly he heals for jack shit and just dies after he DS's himself. I usually prefer an unknown player on my team to draft Lili. At least there is less chance of being catastrophically bad.
you forgot where he only dies after the rest of the team does, so his healing ghost is useless.
On October 29 2015 03:13 MotherFox wrote: oh hey I just noticed I finally made gold heroleague on hotslogs. It's been a long road from the 700 mmr I started at back in may.
Holy shit.
Yeah, I was pretty bad. I think my lowest was actually in the low 500's, but the hotslogs mmr milestones graph graciously doesn't show that.
The period between 8/15 and 10/15 is where I entered a slump and couldn't seem to improve at all. At that mmr/ranking, the only solution seems to be to always take assassins and aggressively carry the team by ganking overextended enemies. Silly me was trying to play a great support every game and just couldn't figure out how to reliable get victories.
Also note that I've had an 70% winrate over my last 50 games, but because I have so many games on the books my mmr is growing very slowly at this point. It's going to be a real grind to get to plat, assuming I am skilled enough to get there. If I continue at this winrate, I calculate it will take 50-60 more games.
My biggest issue is I don't have a main. I constantly play different heroes. Fuck the only hero that is actually level 10 for me is Tychus. Who I did "main" when I had my highest MMR of 3200. I now cruise around 2800 but I've kind of stopped playing the game very much also.
Yeah, consistency is key for my recent growth. I've been restricting myself to a small pool of heroes, complete with specific picks for specific maps and roles. I actually keep a pen and paper playbook next to my computer where I record drafting order too, so I can review whether I'm straying from my overall strategy.
I just try and get too cute. Instead of playing my best hero I try and select the best counter to the enemy team. So even if the hero is 5% better against the comp if I'm 40% worse at playing it then I've actually fucked my team over instead of helping. Like I'm a really good Muradin and Johanna. Good ETC. Decent Leo. Suck at all the other. But by god if I see an opportunity to take Tyrael you know my ass is taking him despite being objectively worse at him than my other warriors.
I also generally give up assassins since everyone, EVERYONE, in HL considers themselves an assassin main. So despite me thinking I'm objectively a better player than my team if I'm stuck on Malf I can't really make too many plays to help my team outside of appropriate Tranq timings and root follow-ups.
On October 29 2015 04:48 Tenks wrote: My biggest issue is I don't have a main. I constantly play different heroes. Fuck the only hero that is actually level 10 for me is Tychus. Who I did "main" when I had my highest MMR of 3200. I now cruise around 2800 but I've kind of stopped playing the game very much also.
I have the same problem. Minus Vikings and some of the newer heroes I've played every toon up to lvl 5.
My HL results were pretty middling until I decided I'm just going to stick with Muradin and Valla (and give up on pre-buff Tassadar).
If I have to support (and so far once you're out of the 40's people actually play support!) I think I'm passable on Monk (plus there's always Lili).
If I need to tank and can't pick Muradin, then I'll go over to ETC (4 for 4 so far, but it's been a while since I've had Muradin taken from me). If I can't take Valla I ask if the team's ok with me going double warrior =p.
I'll expand my hero pool eventually, but so far this has been working for me, although I still got a way to go before I reach 2800 (currently ~2200).
I really hate what they did with Rehgar. He used to be a really fun fairly high skill healer. Now all you can really do is stand in the back and spam Qs until you need to R someone.
On October 30 2015 01:55 Tenks wrote: I really hate what they did with Rehgar. He used to be a really fun fairly high skill healer. Now all you can really do is stand in the back and spam Qs until you need to R someone.
It's the case with too many supports. They are healbot first and utility second which makes them boring to play. Rehgar is just the epitome of that as his Q is by far his best spell and the 'best' talent build just forces you to play almost purely that. When the feral lunge and B4B build was good on him that was at least more fun to play.
They need to return him, remove the 'lets take all healing talents' build and give him some more fun play by making the other talents the best with maybe 1 or 2 healing talents just utility.
On October 30 2015 01:55 Tenks wrote: I really hate what they did with Rehgar. He used to be a really fun fairly high skill healer. Now all you can really do is stand in the back and spam Qs until you need to R someone.
Did he get any balance changes? I don't recall at all. He just always seemed lackluster other than healing and now that there are more healers with better utility, why bother with a no-damage low-utility healer (I know this is describing Monk too, but he has better healing imo).
Tychus can get up to like 7.12 attacks per second with just his own stuff (Didn't do math, trying to remember number from a long time ago), so if you use all that on him.....
Yeah, playing the same hero over and over is boring. I have only a few heroes i didn't really played past lvl 5 or so, and a bunch that are mostly for quick match.
About Rhegar, its pretty hard to justify him over Uther and sometimes Kharazim (honestly, i rather see a Rhegar in draft since most monks are bad, the few Rhegars out there are usually better imo). Its just the monk taking his place while Uther is a monster since forever. The other healers play in different niches and are not really a competition for him. Rhegar is not bad imo, he might make it into pro draft if people ban main healers.
The support role needs some of that magic from the last warrior patch. Rhegar shoudn't overlap that much with other superior healers, but i have no clue how to solve that. But one good example is malf, he is not necessarily better or worse than monk, he is different.
Stacking attack speed would just make the animation look weird, i guess.
On October 30 2015 01:55 Tenks wrote: I really hate what they did with Rehgar. He used to be a really fun fairly high skill healer. Now all you can really do is stand in the back and spam Qs until you need to R someone.
Did he get any balance changes? I don't recall at all. He just always seemed lackluster other than healing and now that there are more healers with better utility, why bother with a no-damage low-utility healer (I know this is describing Monk too, but he has better healing imo).
He got his talents shuffled and some new ones added I think when they gave him Cleanse. Most notable they gave him more/better Q talents. It used to be as Rehgar you'd want to be in the middle of the battle because you could do some pretty decent damage. But now since you generally don't go Feral Lunge and B4B got nerfed his damage spec kind of got neutered (pun intended.) So now the most optimal way to play is to just stand in the back lines and Q/W on cooldown.
On October 30 2015 02:36 Superbanana wrote: Yeah, playing the same hero over and over is boring. I have only a few heroes i didn't really played past lvl 5 or so, and a bunch that are mostly for quick match.
About Rhegar, its pretty hard to justify him over Uther and sometimes Kharazim (honestly, i rather see a Rhegar in draft since most monks are bad, the few Rhegars out there are usually better imo). Its just the monk taking his place while Uther is a monster since forever. The other healers play in different niches and are not really a competition for him. Rhegar is not bad imo, he might make it into pro draft if people ban main healers.
The support role needs some of that magic from the last warrior patch. Rhegar shoudn't overlap that much with other superior healers, but i have no clue how to solve that. But one good example is malf, he is not necessarily better or worse than monk, he is different.
Stacking attack speed would just make the animation look weird, i guess.
Man, Warriors are in such a good place now. I didn't expect Diablo to see play, but he is does. I likewise didn't think Sanctification would see as much play as it is, but Tyrael has two viable heroic! Just like Leoric, Anub'arak and Arthas! Plus, Sonya / ETC can situationally take their other heroic without getting funny looks.
Chen gets some play in Asia, so it's really just Stiches and Rexxar who appear to need some love (Artanis probably will see play).
Anyways, if Supports get the same treatment that would be awesome. So far Tyrande and Tassadar had successful reworks (I didn't think Tassadar's buff was enough to offset the Archon nerf, I was way off on that and how good Force Wall could be). The only fear though is if Uther needs to be nerfed to bring all supports inline, he just overshadows everyone else atm.
Edit: @Tenks, I forgot about that, and they gave him a special battle momentum that didn't effect Ancestral, which really weakens his niche as best-hps.
Don't forget her level 20 20% attack speed and range. Issue is you have to stand still with super squishy Tyrande. Would be interesting to test if you can keep someone stun chained haha.
And they changed Rhegar some time ago and restricted his talent choices a bit with it, because a kind of must have heal talent blocks the more interesting talents. And to get the best of it you need to take other heal talents and you have a one build hero. And those don't work in professional play that well. Unless they are Kael who doesn't care and murders anyway.
But he turned from a melee Healer that can mount midfight and finish of heroes to a stands in the backline and spams Q healer. Before Rhegar was damn fun to play.
Ah well. Still sad about the no game editor. Wanted to make a map where you have to conquer spots and build up forts then. But such a map could take hours lol. Now I kinda want a map where one player starts as the overmind and one as adjutant and hey have control over all the buildings. Guess I gotta do it in the Sc2 editor and then take over the Dota style market with my custom map.
On October 30 2015 02:45 Wuster wrote: Man, Warriors are in such a good place now. I didn't expect Diablo to see play, but he is does. I likewise didn't think Sanctification would see as much play as it is, but Tyrael has two viable heroic! Just like Leoric, Anub'arak and Arthas! Plus, Sonya / ETC can situationally take their other heroic without getting funny looks.
Chen gets some play in Asia, so it's really just Stiches and Rexxar who appear to need some love (Artanis probably will see play).
Diablo is nuts vs some compositions. Diablo & ETC are so much fun to play and do a lot of work if you know when to draft them.
I doubt we'll see Artanis or Stitches, as both are on the weak side and don't improve in premade, but I'd expect to see a few Rexxars.
On October 30 2015 02:50 FeyFey wrote: Ah well. Still sad about the no game editor. Wanted to make a map where you have to conquer spots and build up forts then. But such a map could take hours lol. Now I kinda want a map where one player starts as the overmind and one as adjutant and hey have control over all the buildings. Guess I gotta do it in the Sc2 editor and then take over the Dota style market with my custom map.
I desperately want a map that changes the normal minions fight, push fort -> keep -> core -> win. My original impression of Tomb was that turning in gems would buff your lane minions which would at least change the AI side of things.
On October 30 2015 02:45 Wuster wrote: Man, Warriors are in such a good place now. I didn't expect Diablo to see play, but he is does. I likewise didn't think Sanctification would see as much play as it is, but Tyrael has two viable heroic! Just like Leoric, Anub'arak and Arthas! Plus, Sonya / ETC can situationally take their other heroic without getting funny looks.
Chen gets some play in Asia, so it's really just Stiches and Rexxar who appear to need some love (Artanis probably will see play).
Diablo is nuts vs some compositions. Diablo & ETC are so much fun to play and do a lot of work if you know when to draft them.
I doubt we'll see Artanis or Stitches, as both are on the weak side and don't improve in premade, but I'd expect to see a few Rexxars.
I would love to see Rexxar, he has a ton of control so should have a niche but we just haven't seen it yet.
My thinking for Artanis is if nothing else he's a high-damage bruiser to compete with Sonya. Plus the wombo-potential with Purifier Beam is pretty good!
On October 30 2015 03:00 Valiver wrote: Artanis is banned from BlizzCon or else I think we'd see a decent amount of him.
I don't think he'd ever be picked in his current post-nerf form. He's never the best fit for any role on any map, imo. It doesn't help that his winrate goes down in diamond/master on HotsLogs, a very rare occurrence and a bad sign for competitive play.
I think Purifier Beam on 20 will be sneak nerfed, as in it will pick a target that is more likely to dodge it if it kills one. Purifier Beam sounds neat against Abathur. But he just ults to dodge the beam. And Abathur can spam his ult, while Purifier beam has quite a cooldown.
I still prefer the other one as its one of the more spammable once. Use it top open the fight and give a bit of vision and if the fight goes on you might end up using it another time. But both are good, glad he is banned at Blizzcon though. I think he might need a lil adjustment, to make him less situational so his 20er ults don't have to be that insane.
On October 30 2015 02:45 Wuster wrote: Anyways, if Supports get the same treatment that would be awesome. So far Tyrande and Tassadar had successful reworks (I didn't think Tassadar's buff was enough to offset the Archon nerf, I was way off on that and how good Force Wall could be). The only fear though is if Uther needs to be nerfed to bring all supports inline, he just overshadows everyone else atm.
Edit: @Tenks, I forgot about that, and they gave him a special battle momentum that didn't effect Ancestral, which really weakens his niche as best-hps.
I think a majority of Force Walls played in the tournament were a bit underwhelming, but if you look closely, there were a few that single-handedly won engagements for teams. The two big ones I remember were:
C9 vs Dig Game 1 on Cursed Hollow. Dignitas manages to get a lead and pushes into C9's top keep. C9 plays cool and flexes with the pressure, then Force Wall captures Tyrande playing a bit too far forward. She gets melted, and the rest of the team disintegrates because they need the Hunter's Mark to effectively burst down heroes.
C9 vs Dig Game 3 on Haunted Mines. Dig wins the second immortal and begins to push into C9's bot fort with a level lead (14 to 13, I believe). ETC slides forward with what looks like it could be a huge opportunity for Mosh Pit. The rest of the team moves forward to capitalize on it, but ETC gets polymorphed almost immediately and then a Force Wall comes down behind the team to trap Kael'Thas. The healing from Tranq isn't enough, and C9 dominates the fight to even up the score.
Still, as clutch as some of the Force Walls ended up being, I was more surprised at how strangely people were building him. If you watch my podcast on him, I believe that Leeching Plasma and Khala's Embrace are easily the best level 4+7 talents, especially since the extra buff on Tassadar's shield, but the pros took Mental Acuity and Static Charge all day, which confuses me greatly. Granted, a few of the games were played against Zeratul, but not all, so Mental Acuity seemed to be used solely for the purpose of having great map awareness. Static Charge, on the other hand, makes absolutely no sense at all without Archon since Force Wall Tassadar is meant to be entirely supportive. What confuses me even more is that everyone was taking Rewind at 20, which makes even less sense because Plasma Shield is up so often, you already have 3 escapes with E talents, and producing a "Second Strike" effect isn't absolutely incredible. I'm honestly really in the dark as to why pros are choosing these talents.
Mule: On a pro level where teams much more often focus buildings down at once instead of them being chipped away to destruction over time, it's not nearly as useful. Still usable as a more niche pick in maps / lineups where the building damage is less "bursty".
Deep Shift: +1.5 secs duration for dimensional shift. You don't want more length unless the enemy team is constantly diving on you and following you as you shift, as it disables you from doing what you need to do (supporting the team with spells). You usually want to pop this just to get the focus off you, even the 1.5 sec duration seems excessive at times, why would a pro-level team ever want their support to be "disabled" for an additional 1.5 secs for a total of 3 seconds with no support?
Khala's Embrace: While leaving 50% of the shields or pre-emptively casting them is a small boost, you don't want to be wasting mana on tassadar by casting your shield whenever you can just to leave 50% of it on someone. Even if you've picked mana talents. As tassadar you aim to mitigate the damage on whoever is being bursted down, and in a sense your goal is that whatever shields you cast either get used up, or they make the opponent refocus.
Static Charge: Checks and gives a charge on an opponent if they're not "marked", on every tick of the storm aoe (Which is fairly frequent). While it only applies to tassadar, it's a 75%+ damage increase for your basic attacks which is a significant boost. Especially with crowd control guaranteeing people to stay in storm while they're being hit = more charges going off.
I don't really understand why you think static charge is not viable without archon. It's still a significant damage boost as you want to be basic attacking enemies while supporting the team. The only advantage archon has over force wall regarding static charge is the increased attack range (only at L20), and the splash damage (if enemies are clumped up, you can consume multiple charges at once). While force wall's advantage is giving additional crowd control which also enables you to clump up enemies on your storm, re-applying the charge as it gets consumed by your basic attacks.
Do note that it's a fixed amount of damage the static charge gives, so the higher base damage of archon doesn't benefit from static charge. The 75%+ is just approximately the increase you'd get for a basic attack of that level. (Starts off closer to 80%, gets closer and closer to 75% as levels rise.)
I tend to agree, Tassadar without Static Charge is such a wet noodle, unless you're pairing him with malf / tyrande you're giving up a lot of team-wide damage.
Previously you could get by with just waiting for Archon to deal your damage (nicely timed to when it matters - the team fight), but now you don't have that option.
Also, as we've seen lately Mule just isn't that popular, probably because the obvious counter is destroy the building in one go. As rotations have gotten more refined teams just haven't been going in without knowing they can take it down.
On October 30 2015 07:08 Wuster wrote: I tend to agree, Tassadar without Static Charge is such a wet noodle, unless you're pairing him with malf / tyrande you're giving up a lot of team-wide damage.
Previously you could get by with just waiting for Archon to deal your damage (nicely timed to when it matters - the team fight), but now you don't have that option.
Also, as we've seen lately Mule just isn't that popular, probably because the obvious counter is destroy the building in one go. As rotations have gotten more refined teams just haven't been going in without knowing they can take it down.
There weren't any compositions that made sense for MULE yesterday anyway. Classically, we would see teams pick up MULE on a "secondary support" like Tassadar, Tyrande, or Abathur who could still focus on being damage heavy, but with now that Tass and Tyrande are primarily support-driven characters (at least in the games we saw yesterday), you're generally sacrificing a lot to get MULE. Not saying that your analysis is wrong, but I think there's also additional reasoning behind that.
On October 30 2015 06:57 Cephiro wrote: I don't really understand why you think static charge is not viable without archon. It's still a significant damage boost as you want to be basic attacking enemies while supporting the team. The only advantage archon has over force wall regarding static charge is the increased attack range (only at L20), and the splash damage (if enemies are clumped up, you can consume multiple charges at once). While force wall's advantage is giving additional crowd control which also enables you to clump up enemies on your storm, re-applying the charge as it gets consumed by your basic attacks.
Do note that it's a fixed amount of damage the static charge gives, so the higher base damage of archon doesn't benefit from static charge. The 75%+ is just approximately the increase you'd get for a basic attack of that level. (Starts off closer to 80%, gets closer and closer to 75% as levels rise.)
So a few days ago I found a stats page for every hero, and Tassadar literally has the worst basic attack in the entire game aside from Abathur, Murky, and Stitches after level 20. So when I look at getting Static Charge to empower his basic attacks, it doesn't seem like a 20% increase really does much other than makes them not suck completely. Secondly, I'm convinced that Khala's Embrace is the best talent in the tier because of the extra shielding that you can put on a player. If you shield a player who already has the half shield from Khala's Embrace, you grant a total of 150% shield on that person (at level 20, this is a 1125 HP shield).
Watching the games from yesterday, all of the Tassadar supports were hoarding mana and sitting at 3/4-full mana almost the entire game, and shields are very cheap mana wise. I'm convinced that saving Plasma Shield for only when allies are being damaged is a mistake, and Tassadar players should be spamming Q every chance they get in the late game to mitigate probable incoming damage, dissuade dives, and build up Khala's Embrace shields on your teammates during down time.
I do see your point, I do agree it's a fairly good talent. However even with the new reduced cooldown, you'd still want to keep the shield cooldown available unless you're sure you won't be needing it in the next 5 seconds. You probably won't have much of a chance to shield all your team for a fight, but let's say you manage to stack it for at least 2 high-priority targets consistently.
We need to compare this extra shielding compared to what you'd have otherwise. If I'm not mistaken, shielded allies get a bonus +50% to the shielding amount, which would end up being (750*1.5)/2 = 562,5 extra damage points worth of shield.
Personally, I feel that a lot of the situations in high level games are decided by a single person being focused and caught out, the other team backing off if they can as 5v4 at that level of play is hard to overcome. So the comparison comes down to mitigating ~560 damage extra, or dealing (I'd say getting off 2 charged autos sounds reasonable?) ~230 damage extra. While purely numbers-wise shield definitely wins out, I'd argue that there is more damage available than there is healing in general.
When able to focus one person, is the 560 extra mitigation to change the outcome how often? I do think it's more significant in lower level games, but I feel like with the coordination of pro teams, it doesn't make enough of a difference to change the outcome of the situation. While I also agree that ~230 extra damage is also unlikely to be the burst required to make a difference, I think we need to look at some other key factors with the talents. That is, the level they are received on.
Level 7 is still fairly early in the game. Laning at this point is still extremely crucial. At level 7, while actively laning, I don't think you have chances of stacking up the shield very much. (Not to mention it's likely to be chipped away by minions as well as the enemy to a fair extent.)
Compare that to static charge however, you enable tassadar to laneclear more effectively (saving you from using a 2nd storm earlygame) and faster (enabling you to leave the lane to rotate for another nearby lane before the enemy hero is free, unless they want to give up the xp from that wave as an advantage for your team). Not to mention it also makes harassing your enemy in the lane much more potent.
If I had to guess, I think the pro teams value the early-game potential of static charge more than the late-game mitigation of the khala's embrace. After all, gaining a lead early on does put the team at a fairly sizeable advantage, whereas even if the strategy is tailored for late-game, it's always a challenge to survive until that point where it can start shining.
Playing tassadar with the "old style" build is more effective than before and even without the changes he was still played. There is nothing to be confused about.
I do like leeching plasma and khala embrace, but just wanna say that oracle is still as good and static charge does the same damage as before. Archon only really affects the charge indirectly with the tankiness and range from twilight archon. Consuming the charge does the same extra dps without archon.
Tassadar with force wall is not meant to be entirely supportive, if you get static charge you can still do damage. Granted its not much but as a jack of all trades hero its part of his job imo.
The main problem with khala embrace is that you need conjurer's pursuit stacks otherwise you eat all of your mana, so its a late game build. Static charge and oracle give a faster reward.
Okay, so I did some math because I'm fucking obsessed and this is driving me crazy.
At level 7, Static Charge is an increase of 30% to your basic attacks. His level 7 damage with Static Charge is equivalent to the basic attacks of Nazeebo or Kael'Thas at around 96 DPS. At level 20, it is an increase of 45%. His damage with Static Charge is somewhere in between low and high damage auto attackers with ~264 DPS (Most tanks fall below 230 and heroes like Valla, Raynor, Illidan, and Zeratul all range 280+ What this means is that it's actually not that valuable early game, but drastically improves his DPS in the late game. That said, the extra ~120 extra damage per shot helps some for bursting things down, but very little when you think about bursting 5000+ HP down (0.02% of total) in the late game, especially since Static Charge is consumed after attacking.
But what about wave clear? I tested this out too. Static Charge does not significantly improve your clear speed compared to two storms until you get to level 9, which is when you can one-shot archer minions. This is an improvement on Tassadar without Static Charge, who needs until level 13 to be able to do the same. At level 17, Storm one-shots a minion wave. This is an important timing window between 9 and 13 when games are rotation heavy, and good ganks can decide the game, so the increased ability to wave clear has its perks.
I'll try it out in games since there may be a secret lying somewhere in here, but it still doesn't numerically make sense to me to take it if you're not going Archon.
Also, some minor points about shields. We were talking in the Shadowstalk thread about how significant the 840 healing done with Shadowstalk is (which I disagree with for an ult). Applying that concept here, I can't see how a 562.5 point shield on everyone on your team late game can be bad in comparison. Again, the second part of that is that you can shield on top of Khala's Embrace for up to an insane 150% shield to counter burst (to put it in perspective, it shields about as much damage a full Strafe does). As I said, you apply Khala shields in downtime, not during periods where you need to hold onto the 5 second cooldown for an ally, so the cooldown isn't an issue. Mana also isn't an issue post-13 with Conjurer's Pursuit. It's just good.
Can I ask where you're pulling off the 30-45% figures from? As far as I know, static charge is an additional 28.5+4.5 damage on top of the basic attack which is 32+6. The growth stays at 75%, and the initial damage (which becomes less and less of a factor) is almost 90% extra. So if anything, it improves your damage more early in the game than late in the game? (%-wise, of course not fixed numberwise)
EDIT2: I guess comparing against a tick of the storm itself is fairly reasonable and would explain your numbers, but I do think it makes more sense to compare it as an increase over the basic attack, as the static charge itself doesn't do anything, it's basically "extra basic attack damage" for tassadar.
120 extra dmg per shot out of a 5000 is also 2.4%, not 0.02%... (Just getting confused as your values seem right but your percentages seem extremely off?)
I also still don't really understand why you value the archon/static charge combination so much. As mentioned before, at level 10 the only synergy between static charge and archon is the splash damage activating multiple charges at once (and to utilize that, you will need CC from your team to stack the enemies up, or to keep them in storm to refresh charges).
Wall on the other hand limits you to one target per auto attack, but it gives you additional CC to keep an enemy in storms with. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while it's often preferable to fully commit into a specific type of build, it's not always the case nor is there always a single best choice for a certain type of build.
As in, I personally see it's more like... Pick static charge -> Possibility of picking archon for a small extra synergy But it seems you view it as Pick static charge only if going archon for the small extra synergy
While I agree that 560 point shield is a nice bit, you're never, ever going to get that off on everyone on your team. You'd require 25 seconds just for setting that up, and also for every member in your team avoiding damage for that duration of time. (Less for those who get shielded last.)
In high level games, some situations come down to seconds if not fractions of seconds. You can't rely on being able to having that extra shield to stack up on that often. Realistically even if you have good knowledge / vision of the enemy movements, you aren't going to be able to prepare for a teamfight that long. And while you talk about using the downtime, you naturally take damage as you do lesser objectives and push before the inevitable teamfight. As I mentioned before, I can realistically see having maybe 2 high-priority targets constantly shielded before teamfights happen if they don't get caught out.
You also have to think that khala's embrace in a sense can be outplayed. If the enemy team considers the extra 560p of shield too much of a threat, they can delay the engagement / diving in to your team, and just chip the damage off. Arguably due to the nature of damage/healing in the game, they will be able to chip the shields off faster than you can replenish them. In lower level games on the other hand even if you won't get focused as hard and the damage is more spread out, people won't be as good about keeping that extra shield up and running. But static charge isn't something you can really avoid. You try to avoid storms as is, but if you get hit you also take the stack. Which may force extra healing/shielding to be used and cause it to be on cooldown earlier than otherwise.
I do think both talents are very viable and have their place, but I don't think there's a clear cut superiority for one or the other except for specific situations. (For example in a dive-heavy composition, pre-stacking your diver with extra shields is very useful). I think it comes down to how you want to play your tassadar both as yourself, and as for what the team needs.
For me personally, I find static charge more useful in general, as I prefer the extra damage + the window of faster waveclear earlygame over the extra shielding lategame (also earlygame, but to an lesser extent due to the different nature of laning vs teamfighting as mentioned before). Also affected by the way I play tassadar (optimization-heavy, trying to focus on dealing damage / CCing or zoning the enemy team as much as possible until support is really needed), not to mention baiting players at low hp or with lower hp teammates is fun and then turning it around with shields + forcewall.
Static charge is a lot of extra damage for a single talent, but his main damage is storm. On lvl 20: 1 second (1 tick) of storm does 240 1 auto attack does 146 (speed is one per second) 1 static charge does 114 Its quite good for one lvl 7 talent.
Is this data accurate? something changed? I took it from heroesnexus.
On October 30 2015 02:33 Valiver wrote: Tychus can get up to like 7.12 attacks per second with just his own stuff (Didn't do math, trying to remember number from a long time ago), so if you use all that on him.....
Tychus has max 6.80 aps alone (with Nexus Frenzy+warmed minigun)
Funny facts. Tychus deal 920 dps with AA. If you have 6.80 aps with Focused attack, Tychus attack TWICE with focused attack. Because Focused attack gives a 0.2 sec buff before your next attack. Having a Focused attack talent increases your dps to 1010.
I read somewhere if you have stim from morales + bloodlust from rehgar focused attack increases your dps by... %40!!! (for tychus only ofc
On October 30 2015 10:04 Cephiro wrote: Can I ask where you're pulling off the 30-45% figures from? As far as I know, static charge is an additional 28.5+4.5 damage on top of the basic attack which is 32+6. The growth stays at 75%, and the initial damage (which becomes less and less of a factor) is almost 90% extra. So if anything, it improves your damage more early in the game than late in the game? (%-wise, of course not fixed numberwise)
EDIT2: I guess comparing against a tick of the storm itself is fairly reasonable and would explain your numbers, but I do think it makes more sense to compare it as an increase over the basic attack, as the static charge itself doesn't do anything, it's basically "extra basic attack damage" for tassadar.
120 extra dmg per shot out of a 5000 is also 2.4%, not 0.02%... (Just getting confused as your values seem right but your percentages seem extremely off?)
I also still don't really understand why you value the archon/static charge combination so much. As mentioned before, at level 10 the only synergy between static charge and archon is the splash damage activating multiple charges at once (and to utilize that, you will need CC from your team to stack the enemies up, or to keep them in storm to refresh charges).
Wall on the other hand limits you to one target per auto attack, but it gives you additional CC to keep an enemy in storms with. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while it's often preferable to fully commit into a specific type of build, it's not always the case nor is there always a single best choice for a certain type of build.
As in, I personally see it's more like... Pick static charge -> Possibility of picking archon for a small extra synergy But it seems you view it as Pick static charge only if going archon for the small extra synergy
While I agree that 560 point shield is a nice bit, you're never, ever going to get that off on everyone on your team. You'd require 25 seconds just for setting that up, and also for every member in your team avoiding damage for that duration of time. (Less for those who get shielded last.)
In high level games, some situations come down to seconds if not fractions of seconds. You can't rely on being able to having that extra shield to stack up on that often. Realistically even if you have good knowledge / vision of the enemy movements, you aren't going to be able to prepare for a teamfight that long. And while you talk about using the downtime, you naturally take damage as you do lesser objectives and push before the inevitable teamfight. As I mentioned before, I can realistically see having maybe 2 high-priority targets constantly shielded before teamfights happen if they don't get caught out.
You also have to think that khala's embrace in a sense can be outplayed. If the enemy team considers the extra 560p of shield too much of a threat, they can delay the engagement / diving in to your team, and just chip the damage off. Arguably due to the nature of damage/healing in the game, they will be able to chip the shields off faster than you can replenish them. In lower level games on the other hand even if you won't get focused as hard and the damage is more spread out, people won't be as good about keeping that extra shield up and running. But static charge isn't something you can really avoid. You try to avoid storms as is, but if you get hit you also take the stack. Which may force extra healing/shielding to be used and cause it to be on cooldown earlier than otherwise.
I do think both talents are very viable and have their place, but I don't think there's a clear cut superiority for one or the other except for specific situations. (For example in a dive-heavy composition, pre-stacking your diver with extra shields is very useful). I think it comes down to how you want to play your tassadar both as yourself, and as for what the team needs.
For me personally, I find static charge more useful in general, as I prefer the extra damage + the window of faster waveclear earlygame over the extra shielding lategame (also earlygame, but to an lesser extent due to the different nature of laning vs teamfighting as mentioned before). Also affected by the way I play tassadar (optimization-heavy, trying to focus on dealing damage / CCing or zoning the enemy team as much as possible until support is really needed), not to mention baiting players at low hp or with lower hp teammates is fun and then turning it around with shields + forcewall.
It has been an enjoyable discussion, though!
My math is off. I think I'm still tired from yesterday.
In any case, I'm still not sure of the build, but I'm going to be playing a lot of Tass tonight to find out!
The thing with khala embrace is that it stacks with leeching plasma. The life leech last permanently if the shields are not taken down. Its not a huge deal but it does make a difference, specially if you think both talents are decent without this interaction.
It's been announced there will be a reveal of two new maps and four new characters.
Czk/Sk Heroes of the Storm said... "We would like to take this opportunity to invite the planned live broadcast, which will be held already next weekend, and under which, hopefully, will introduce two new maps, at least four new heroes, and many other improvements that you, the players, will be surely enjoy."
* Now that the map pool is being increased from 9 to 11, will we see a map rotation in ladder? * Will we finally get out of preseason? * Will the new maps be starcraft or overwatch themed? * Will any of the new characters be from overwatch?
Czk/Sk Heroes of the Storm said... "We would like to take this opportunity to invite the planned live broadcast, which will be held already next weekend, and under which, hopefully, will introduce two new maps, at least four new heroes, and many other improvements that you, the players, will be surely enjoy."
I'm hoping for some starcraft themed maps. The siege mercs could be a squad of marines and the bruiser could be a bunch of zealots with charge and the boss could be a giant ultralisk. There are lots of options for them really, but I really liked the themed merc camps from the diablo maps and hope to see more
I think they said not too long ago that they didn't have any starcraft maps coming up, but since there's 2 maps to be revealed they could show a new warcraft map that's nearly complete, and then a preview of a starcraft map like when they showed the diablo map at blizzcon last year.
On October 31 2015 04:45 KrytosSR wrote: I'm hoping for some starcraft themed maps. The siege mercs could be a squad of marines and the bruiser could be a bunch of zealots with charge and the boss could be a giant ultralisk. There are lots of options for them really, but I really liked the themed merc camps from the diablo maps and hope to see more
The problem with StarCraft maps is that there are three races and only two sides, so you can't as easily go Heaven/Hell and Alliance/Horde. Unless Legacy of the Void goes the direction I don't want it to, of course.
On October 31 2015 03:43 MotherFox wrote: It's been announced there will be a reveal of two new maps and four new characters.
Czk/Sk Heroes of the Storm said... "We would like to take this opportunity to invite the planned live broadcast, which will be held already next weekend, and under which, hopefully, will introduce two new maps, at least four new heroes, and many other improvements that you, the players, will be surely enjoy."
Incoming that girl with the orange glasses from Overwatch. She seems to be one of the representative faces of the game, so why not.
Also hoping the new maps won't be stuffed with forced auto-triggered PvE fights. Those are so fun.
Watching a bit of Overwatch and the girl you're talking about is Tracer and she has wormhole in the game. Just thought that was amusing. My hunch is the Overwatch characters won't make it in until Overwatch is closer to launch, so they don't end up with drastically different versions in the two games, but then again Blizzard games don't really change much during Beta (at least flavor wise).
On October 30 2015 10:04 Cephiro wrote: Can I ask where you're pulling off the 30-45% figures from? As far as I know, static charge is an additional 28.5+4.5 damage on top of the basic attack which is 32+6. The growth stays at 75%, and the initial damage (which becomes less and less of a factor) is almost 90% extra. So if anything, it improves your damage more early in the game than late in the game? (%-wise, of course not fixed numberwise)
EDIT2: I guess comparing against a tick of the storm itself is fairly reasonable and would explain your numbers, but I do think it makes more sense to compare it as an increase over the basic attack, as the static charge itself doesn't do anything, it's basically "extra basic attack damage" for tassadar.
120 extra dmg per shot out of a 5000 is also 2.4%, not 0.02%... (Just getting confused as your values seem right but your percentages seem extremely off?)
I also still don't really understand why you value the archon/static charge combination so much. As mentioned before, at level 10 the only synergy between static charge and archon is the splash damage activating multiple charges at once (and to utilize that, you will need CC from your team to stack the enemies up, or to keep them in storm to refresh charges).
Wall on the other hand limits you to one target per auto attack, but it gives you additional CC to keep an enemy in storms with. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while it's often preferable to fully commit into a specific type of build, it's not always the case nor is there always a single best choice for a certain type of build.
As in, I personally see it's more like... Pick static charge -> Possibility of picking archon for a small extra synergy But it seems you view it as Pick static charge only if going archon for the small extra synergy
While I agree that 560 point shield is a nice bit, you're never, ever going to get that off on everyone on your team. You'd require 25 seconds just for setting that up, and also for every member in your team avoiding damage for that duration of time. (Less for those who get shielded last.)
In high level games, some situations come down to seconds if not fractions of seconds. You can't rely on being able to having that extra shield to stack up on that often. Realistically even if you have good knowledge / vision of the enemy movements, you aren't going to be able to prepare for a teamfight that long. And while you talk about using the downtime, you naturally take damage as you do lesser objectives and push before the inevitable teamfight. As I mentioned before, I can realistically see having maybe 2 high-priority targets constantly shielded before teamfights happen if they don't get caught out.
You also have to think that khala's embrace in a sense can be outplayed. If the enemy team considers the extra 560p of shield too much of a threat, they can delay the engagement / diving in to your team, and just chip the damage off. Arguably due to the nature of damage/healing in the game, they will be able to chip the shields off faster than you can replenish them. In lower level games on the other hand even if you won't get focused as hard and the damage is more spread out, people won't be as good about keeping that extra shield up and running. But static charge isn't something you can really avoid. You try to avoid storms as is, but if you get hit you also take the stack. Which may force extra healing/shielding to be used and cause it to be on cooldown earlier than otherwise.
I do think both talents are very viable and have their place, but I don't think there's a clear cut superiority for one or the other except for specific situations. (For example in a dive-heavy composition, pre-stacking your diver with extra shields is very useful). I think it comes down to how you want to play your tassadar both as yourself, and as for what the team needs.
For me personally, I find static charge more useful in general, as I prefer the extra damage + the window of faster waveclear earlygame over the extra shielding lategame (also earlygame, but to an lesser extent due to the different nature of laning vs teamfighting as mentioned before). Also affected by the way I play tassadar (optimization-heavy, trying to focus on dealing damage / CCing or zoning the enemy team as much as possible until support is really needed), not to mention baiting players at low hp or with lower hp teammates is fun and then turning it around with shields + forcewall.
It has been an enjoyable discussion, though!
My math is off. I think I'm still tired from yesterday.
In any case, I'm still not sure of the build, but I'm going to be playing a lot of Tass tonight to find out!
So I've done some more playtesting to see how this Mental Acuity/Static Charge thing holds up, and here is the conclusions I've come to:
Mental Acuity is a good pick because it's always up when you need it, and free maphack is awesome. It's probably more effective and reliable than Healing Ward and Leeching Plasma in coordinated play, so I can understand why pros are choosing that. (I still think that Leeching Plasma is baller tho).
The damage increase on Static Charge is not that notable. In terms of general effectiveness, it didn't really help me do anything other than win long, drawn out 1v1s...which is not really Tassadar's role lol. But going back to your original post, I think the other possibility is just that it is a better choice than most of the others. I still maintain that Khala's Embrace is godlike if used correctly, but I can see how Static Charge is a decent go-to, even if you don't go Archon.
Archon kinda blows now, even with Static Charge. Only way I see it being really effective is in combo with a Johanna or Grav-o-Bomb for the splash; the single target damage just doesn't add a lot to fights compared to the utility of Force Wall. (Note: this is a pretty blanket statement, and ofc there are situations where it works better, but overall, I feel like it's pretty meh).
was in a game where the other team drafted muradin/johanna as first picks. Well, there goes my two normal tanks. I decide to dust off leoric, as I haven't played him in a while. I really forgot how much fun he is, especially when paired against hp pools like johanna and muradin. The jaina on my team took the circle of frost ullt and was good at landing it, so I got some really fantastic march of the black kings off too. (four enemy heroes, hit two-three times each.)
On October 31 2015 04:45 KrytosSR wrote: I'm hoping for some starcraft themed maps. The siege mercs could be a squad of marines and the bruiser could be a bunch of zealots with charge and the boss could be a giant ultralisk. There are lots of options for them really, but I really liked the themed merc camps from the diablo maps and hope to see more
The problem with StarCraft maps is that there are three races and only two sides, so you can't as easily go Heaven/Hell and Alliance/Horde. Unless Legacy of the Void goes the direction I don't want it to, of course.
On October 31 2015 04:45 KrytosSR wrote: I'm hoping for some starcraft themed maps. The siege mercs could be a squad of marines and the bruiser could be a bunch of zealots with charge and the boss could be a giant ultralisk. There are lots of options for them really, but I really liked the themed merc camps from the diablo maps and hope to see more
The problem with StarCraft maps is that there are three races and only two sides, so you can't as easily go Heaven/Hell and Alliance/Horde. Unless Legacy of the Void goes the direction I don't want it to, of course.
Well, a StarCraft map doesn't have to have all 3 races on a single map.
Hell, they could have 3 different maps... one Zerg, one Terran, and one Protoss. Or 3 for the non-mirror match-ups: TvZ, ZvP, PvT. etc. etc. Or maybe they could have one race in each lane...
On November 02 2015 02:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I want to love Artanis so much, but the fact that he never gets an escape metaphorically kills me (and literally kills him) x.x
What's the best way to accommodate this?
You have to learn how to pick your battles really carefully. I'm no expert on him, but I'm starting to get used to some of the ideas behind how to control him. Here are a few minor things I've learned:
Templar's Zeal, Psionic Synergy, and Zealot Charge are all non-negotiable, really. The first two are vital in keeping your shields charged when you're low health, and Zealot Charge is absolutely necessary in order to be a threat (plus it gives you kind of a quasi-escape in some scenarios). You can potentially do something like Phase Bulwark -> Force of Will, but I find that having the Triple Strike recharges your shields quickly enough while also dealing extra damage. And the upgrades on both the ultimates are just really, really good.
Never use Q for damage unless you know you're going to pick someone off. Q should be used tactically to dodge AoE spells or reset your shields (in conjunction with Psionic Synergy). There are a lot of interesting things you can do with Blade Dash, such as dodging out of an AoE spell like Gazlowe's wombo bomb or a deadly Jaina Blizzard as well as breaking the leash on Leoric's Drain Hope. In some cases, you can use it to dash to safety for a moment and allow your allies to secure a kill. There are a lot of uses, and I think it's going to take a while before everyone knows exactly how to use this properly.
Auto -> Triple Strike -> Auto will reset your shields in the late game. This means that if you have a W available to you, you will survive a bit longer. Psionic Synergy drops the cooldown of Shield Overload by 4 seconds per hero hit (per swipe), so if you hit 2-3 heroes with both swipes, Shield Overload is reset. This means that in the late game, if you have a Q available to you, you will survive a bit longer. Ergo, if you alternate between using W and Q in fights correctly, you'll survive miraculously long because Shield Overload will constantly reset.
On October 31 2015 04:45 KrytosSR wrote: I'm hoping for some starcraft themed maps. The siege mercs could be a squad of marines and the bruiser could be a bunch of zealots with charge and the boss could be a giant ultralisk. There are lots of options for them really, but I really liked the themed merc camps from the diablo maps and hope to see more
The problem with StarCraft maps is that there are three races and only two sides, so you can't as easily go Heaven/Hell and Alliance/Horde. Unless Legacy of the Void goes the direction I don't want it to, of course.
Testbug anyone?
I know there was an Aeon of Strife-type map in WarCraft 3 with three sides, but that would only lead to rage if two teams pushed on one at the same time.
On October 31 2015 04:45 KrytosSR wrote: I'm hoping for some starcraft themed maps. The siege mercs could be a squad of marines and the bruiser could be a bunch of zealots with charge and the boss could be a giant ultralisk. There are lots of options for them really, but I really liked the themed merc camps from the diablo maps and hope to see more
The problem with StarCraft maps is that there are three races and only two sides, so you can't as easily go Heaven/Hell and Alliance/Horde. Unless Legacy of the Void goes the direction I don't want it to, of course.
Well, a StarCraft map doesn't have to have all 3 races on a single map.
Hell, they could have 3 different maps... one Zerg, one Terran, and one Protoss. Or 3 for the non-mirror match-ups: TvZ, ZvP, PvT. etc. etc. Or maybe they could have one race in each lane...
Well, the thing with making different maps for each race is that it would require quite a bit of work for their terrainers, thus far they seem to like making two maps with the same overall tileset. I hadn't considered the possibility of having a different race for each lane though, that might be cool.
Had some fun with Artanis prism abilities. They are quite useful if your team knows whats going to happen. Otherwise you will murder your team as much as your enemy.
Artanis is such a monster in a late game, it's like Nova or Zeratul on drugs. You just kill hero after hero and then go for forts. It'so like Sonya but more mobile. You feel like Black Mamba from Kill Bill or like Neo. But first 16 levels you just die ;D
Unless you face a Muradin who will just stun out your Q, slow you and dodge your W, while a Tank killer is hitting you xD. But Muradin is build to defeat anything that relies on autoattacks xD. Unless its overbuffed Raynor.
On November 02 2015 10:23 Jenia6109 wrote: Artanis is such a monster in a late game, it's like Nova or Zeratul on drugs. You just kill hero after hero and then go for forts. It'so like Sonya but more mobile. You feel like Black Mamba from Kill Bill or like Neo. But first 16 levels you just die ;D
Reminds me of Kael'thas when he was first released
Yeah, Zealot Charge pretty much makes up the entire hero. Might as well not have anything else in the tier.
Been having fun with panda recently, although he balances between being a non-factor against a team with stunners, and borderline OP against a team with no stunners.
I'm convinced an abnormally large percentage of Artanis's losses are due to bad team compositions. I see so many teams that force him into a solo tank position.
On November 02 2015 15:02 xDaunt wrote: I'm convinced an abnormally large percentage of Artanis's losses are due to bad team compositions. I see so many teams that force him into a solo tank position.
I think it's because he's a half hero. You always want to be half killed to make your shields work. So people go damage themselves to get that 50% healths. Why not make shields be able to activate in 100% health? It's like if Illidan could vampiric attack only if below 50% health or Kerrigan get shields only below 50% health. Just make it 100% and you can nerf him somehow, maybe attack damage or Lazer (ultimate) damage.
On November 02 2015 15:02 xDaunt wrote: I'm convinced an abnormally large percentage of Artanis's losses are due to bad team compositions. I see so many teams that force him into a solo tank position.
I think it's because he's a half hero. You always want to be half killed to make your shields work. So people go damage themselves to get that 50% healths. Why not make shields be able to activate in 100% health? It's like if Illidan could vampiric attack only if below 50% health or Kerrigan get shields only below 50% health. Just make it 100% and you can nerf him somehow, maybe attack damage or Lazer (ultimate) damage.
^This, basically. I've described Artanis as basically a 2000-3000 health hero with shields before, like a "tankier Illidan". He's always at half health or below because the top half of his healthbar just doesn't count for anything significant :/.
On November 02 2015 15:02 xDaunt wrote: I'm convinced an abnormally large percentage of Artanis's losses are due to bad team compositions. I see so many teams that force him into a solo tank position.
Man I finally had an Artanis and Medic on my side in HL and both of them just seem to demand a certain comp so badly. We ended up getting trashed (I played like crap not really knowing how to fit into that team - I picked Valla before Medic was locked in, we ended up with no AA heroes so I tried AA build which is bad. In Hindsight I should have just picked Raynor, the other team was all burst and you guess how much Artanis, Medic and AA Valla like facing that).
Playing Artanis in Hl is much like Nova, Abathur, *insert other hated hero*
Ppl don't understand that you are not a tank Ppl don't understand that you have to play careful the first 10 levels Ppl don't understand that the lazer can be a great! zoning tool, even if you just want to get rid of a tank for a few seconds to kill the backline. Ppl don't understand how much fun Artanis can be ^-^
I've been drafting Zagara a lot lately, but not Nazeebo despite owning him and being good with him. So, I'm trying to think of reasons why to play one over the other. They are somewhat similar characters:
* Both are very immobile * Both have summons * Both do a lot of damage in the aggregate, but not at a specific hero * Both can push very hard. Maybe zagara can push slightly more?
The differences I could think of were something along the lines of:
* Zagara is more powerful in the early game, Nazeebo is more powerful in late game * Zagara's maw sets up wombos, nazeebo's ravenous is a finisher to wombos * Zagara gives vision and map control, but if she can't keep tumors down nazeebo might be better * Nazeebo is better at ganking, since zombie wall is a trap * Zagara has more self sustain, so maps where constant presence is important she might be better on.
On November 04 2015 02:02 MotherFox wrote: I've been drafting Zagara a lot lately, but not Nazeebo despite owning him and being good with him. So, I'm trying to think of reasons why to play one over the other. They are somewhat similar characters:
* Both are very immobile * Both have summons * Both do a lot of damage in the aggregate, but not at a specific hero * Both can push very hard. Maybe zagara can push slightly more?
The differences I could think of were something along the lines of:
* Zagara is more powerful in the early game, Nazeebo is more powerful in late game * Zagara's maw sets up wombos, nazeebo's ravenous is a finisher to wombos * Zagara gives vision and map control, but if she can't keep tumors down nazeebo might be better * Nazeebo is better at ganking, since zombie wall is a trap * Zagara has more self sustain, so maps where constant presence is important she might be better on.
What do you guys think?
Zagara is just flat out better.
More damage, more early power, more control in team fights via Maw, even more utility via creep tumors. Just a better hero right now, imo.
I don't like Nazeebo, sure he probably does more hero damage than Zagara at the end of the game on the score screen, but all the damage he does is spread out and often tanks soak up spider damage which is pretty much equal to zero damage when laning. Zagara is a way better solo laner, and can push faster than Nazeebo since turrets will run out of ammo despite 1vs1 laning, while Nazeebo's spiders don't actually soak up any damage. Zagara has really good direct damage which is especially useful vs golems, garden terrors, immortals etc but also in team fights she can deal a lot of damage and zone out heroes with her hydralisks. With the Rapid Incubation talent she can stay in lanes forever and she also have the option to go for a creep build which is invaluable on a couple of maps. Also I don't agree that Nazeebo is more powerful in the late game, Zagara's Devouring Maw is imo better than anything Nazeebo has and makes her dangerous throughout the whole game.
Though looking a little more deeply at hotslogs stats, it seems nazeebos' high winrate is strongly propped up by lower leagues. At the bronze level he is #1, but he declines with each league level up, to the point where at platinum he is overtaken by zagara.
I wonder how much of that is the forgiving and unforgiving nature of his ults: forgiving because they are hard to "miss" meanwhile missed maws which are worthless, but they are unforgiving because if experienced enemies see you ravenous and have prepared, they can punish you for it.
I think Zagara is harder to play than Nazeebo, you don't get that big hp pool to buffer you late game, you have to watch your mana more since you don't have passive regen like Nazeebo's trait.
Then like you said Maw is very binary compared to Nazeebo's ults (especially when Gargantuan was the pick).
Also, I think once you get used to it, it's a lot easier to avoid Nazeebo's damage (his toads especially), which really hurts his effectiveness against players who don't just stand there (don't high level Zagara's avoid Banelings too? easy to miss and roots you in place = dangerous choice).
On October 31 2015 04:45 KrytosSR wrote: I'm hoping for some starcraft themed maps. The siege mercs could be a squad of marines and the bruiser could be a bunch of zealots with charge and the boss could be a giant ultralisk. There are lots of options for them really, but I really liked the themed merc camps from the diablo maps and hope to see more
The problem with StarCraft maps is that there are three races and only two sides, so you can't as easily go Heaven/Hell and Alliance/Horde. Unless Legacy of the Void goes the direction I don't want it to, of course.
It could be lanes with different themes--or like line tower wars. ZvP PvT TvZ
or if your team is one sc race heavy, you get the assets of that race on your side otherwise random race. Sc2 races build on every terrain without shaping the terrain itself.
On November 04 2015 03:09 Wuster wrote: I think Zagara is harder to play than Nazeebo, you don't get that big hp pool to buffer you late game, you have to watch your mana more since you don't have passive regen like Nazeebo's trait.
Then like you said Maw is very binary compared to Nazeebo's ults (especially when Gargantuan was the pick).
Also, I think once you get used to it, it's a lot easier to avoid Nazeebo's damage (his toads especially), which really hurts his effectiveness against players who don't just stand there (don't high level Zagara's avoid Banelings too? easy to miss and roots you in place = dangerous choice).
Yeah Banelings are not used most of the time because of the reasons you mentioned and that they actually barely result in any more damage than you would get by just auto-attacking. They're just very situational. The toads are kind of similar (except late game you have enough mana to just spam them), I guess that's why people have started picking up Toads of Hugeness to make them easier to hit.
Zagara is pretty hard to play because of her creep tumors as well, I've seen a ton of Zagaras who barely puts down any tumors at all. I guess for people who haven't played SC2 much it might be hard to remember to constantly keep laying down tumors, or maybe people don't just want to bother since they don't think the vision means a lot and they want to focus on their combat abilities.
Zagara is overall better than Nazeebo, but it is also important to note that Zagara is one of the best laners in the game, has great early power and scales poorly later in the game, while Nazeebo has big power spikes at level 13(Thing of the Deep, Toads of Hugeness) and 16(Leaping Spiders).
Later in the game Zagara's Hydralisks/Mutalisks deal a lot less damage and can be easily killed in few hits or with a spell, on the other hand Nazeebo's leaping Spiders can solo squishy heroes easily and Toads of Hugeness can deal enormous damage on the last hop. Had a game where I took like 3/4 of Kael'Thas' HP with 3 Toads hitting him at the last hop. With that talent Nazeebo turns from a sustain-poke kind of a hero to a big AoE-burst kind.
On November 04 2015 03:50 Ramiz1989 wrote: Zagara is overall better than Nazeebo, but it is also important to note that Zagara is one of the best laners in the game, has great early power and scales poorly later in the game[...]
How I feel as well, Zagara's biggest power spike is at level 4. She can set up big experience leads by bullying literally everyone(?) out of her lane, but in lategame she just kinda fumbles around, trying not to lag too much behind her team and landing a good maw. Still, her early game makes her more than good IMHO.
On November 04 2015 03:50 Ramiz1989 wrote: Zagara is overall better than Nazeebo, but it is also important to note that Zagara is one of the best laners in the game, has great early power and scales poorly later in the game[...]
How I feel as well, Zagara's biggest power spike is at level 4. She can set up big experience leads by bullying literally everyone(?) out of her lane, but in lategame she just kinda fumbles around, trying not to lag too much behind her team and landing a good maw. Still, her early game makes her more than good IMHO.
I also feel vision is more important early game as well and Zags can give vision over a large area. Towards the latter part of the game you mostly know where everyone is and a roaming Kerrigan isn't really a thing anymore.
On another topic, I love Elune's Grace on Malf so much lol. Many keks are had when all the enemy Jainas and Vallas think they are safe running away and fucking healer kills them with Moonfire.
On November 04 2015 04:18 Ej_ wrote: On another topic, I love Elune's Grace on Malf so much lol. Many keks are had when all the enemy Jainas and Vallas think they are safe running away and fucking healer kills them with Moonfire.
I do love malf, though it seems I am rarely in a position to draft him when I get forced into support. I agree 100% with elune's grace, I almost never forsake it.
has anyone else noticed that if you are looking at the fog of war sometimes you can see spell effects and/or sounds from that area? I've noticed it with falstad's hammer throw(sounds) and murky's slime ability(visual) in the last week or so.
Every now and then in patch notes you can see bug fixes related to seeing stuff through fog. I guess they keep fixing the most obvious ones because there's no easy way to fix them all.
On November 04 2015 04:18 Ej_ wrote: On another topic, I love Elune's Grace on Malf so much lol. Many keks are had when all the enemy Jainas and Vallas think they are safe running away and fucking healer kills them with Moonfire.
I do love malf, though it seems I am rarely in a position to draft him when I get forced into support. I agree 100% with elune's grace, I almost never forsake it.
As good as Elune's Grace is, I usually prefer the little Treant guy from Vengeful Roots. Underrated, and highest winrate on HotsLogs by far (and has been for months). At level 20, he deals ~1400 dmg over 10s. He's really good for tanking mercs, pushing lanes, giving vision, 1v1 and damaging structures.
Too bad Malf seems so weak since his Tranquility nerf. I don't see a reason to pick him over Li Li, Monk or Uther.
Malf is still really good but mostly for roots. Lili can outperform most supports in raw healing numbers but any good team will shut her down and she doesn't have the same CC.
That said, I 1v1d a Butcher as Lili. So she is still pretty badass.
I 1v1ed a zeratul tonight as malf on dragon shire in QM around a shrine. He eventually won but only because nova came to help.
The rest of the game he played scared of me, trying to snipe me during team fights and vping me at seemingly weird times. I always love it when I notice a change in how people are playing because of me.
On November 04 2015 09:02 Pwere wrote: As good as Elune's Grace is, I usually prefer the little Treant guy from Vengeful Roots. Underrated, and highest winrate on HotsLogs by far (and has been for months). At level 20, he deals ~1400 dmg over 10s. He's really good for tanking mercs, pushing lanes, giving vision, 1v1 and damaging structures.
Too bad Malf seems so weak since his Tranquility nerf. I don't see a reason to pick him over Li Li, Monk or Uther.
Never even considered the Treant talent... ^^ Thought it was just a choice of Elunes Grace and Rampant Growth
I feel Lili is more rewarding than Malf cause you can do stuff that matters yourself If I land the perfect root with malf and my team is to stupid to capitalize on it.... grrraaaar
I've been having a lot of problems against split pushing azmodan comps with one other specialist on them. How do you guys effectively combat this strategy when you have a team of cats willing to teamfight an objective while azmodan is obviously just pushing down yet another fort or keep?
On November 04 2015 09:02 Pwere wrote: Underrated, and highest winrate on HotsLogs by far (and has been for months).
Better to look by league rather than in total - you'll see at master league, it isn't picked that much. Its higher win rate coming from bronze league doesn't mean all that much.
On November 04 2015 09:02 Pwere wrote: Underrated, and highest winrate on HotsLogs by far (and has been for months).
Better to look by league rather than in total - you'll see at master league, it isn't picked that much. Its higher win rate coming from bronze league doesn't mean all that much.
It's higher winrate is across all leagues except master, and that exception is only because it's taken so little in master league that there are no statistics on it.
On November 05 2015 02:35 MotherFox wrote: I've been having a lot of problems against split pushing azmodan comps with one other specialist on them. How do you guys effectively combat this strategy when you have a team of cats willing to teamfight an objective while azmodan is obviously just pushing down yet another fort or keep?
I would say Azmodan is a pretty bad dueler, so it's not hard to send someone after him and push him out of lane. It really depends on the map though, but if Azmodan is missing there shouldn't be a reason you can't 4v4 the objective.
Anyways, pre-March of Sin Azmodan can't really do anything in a duel, even high globe stacks don't help in a duel. They're good for a team fight when you can finish off people or bring them low for your team to clear, but on it's one on one it's pretty easy to avoid and the long cooldown prevents him from really following up on that damage.
I think the issue isn't so much dueling him as the long distances required to cover him. If I'm Jaina and leave my team to 4v4 the curse to take out azmodan, even though I secure the hill he still got half the fort in the time it took me to get to him.
If I spend most of my time trying to push out lanes so we have more warning, well...that doesn't go great either. Maybe we're getting comp-losses because of tyrande/kerrigan/uther comps with no waveclear, but it just always leaves me feeling so helpless.
Well it's a complicated scenario, so this might be a simplistic question. But what happened to the guy opposing Azmodan in lane? Just have them stick on Azmodan during objectives.
It's usually not critical to beeline for an objective asap, especially not if they have someone skipping it. But if Azmodan does show up while someone waits in lane looking for him, you can usually stall out the objective long enough to regroup.
Been doing a lot of solo pushing as Azmodan this week with a full All Shall Burn build and what I've had most trouble with is Sylvanas. She can easily counter my pushes alone, same with Kaelthas on level 13. Otherwise I'd suggest sending down two guys to kill Azmodan cause one is not really fast enough. The thing is that when I push I just sacrifice myself for a fort, just lasering it down while someone tries to kill me, which takes a while if you took the healing talent. So that's why I suggest sending two guys or at least one that can interrupt the laser (eg not Zeratul/Illidan).
On November 04 2015 09:02 Pwere wrote: Underrated, and highest winrate on HotsLogs by far (and has been for months).
Better to look by league rather than in total - you'll see at master league, it isn't picked that much. Its higher win rate coming from bronze league doesn't mean all that much.
It's higher winrate is across all leagues except master, and that exception is only because it's taken so little in master league that there are no statistics on it.
Exactly. Rampant Growth is the number one pick, but that doesn't mean it's good. If you want that talent as Malf, you should have picked another healer. Which leads me to believe that Malf is mainly picked by people stuck with him because they don't buy supports. Then they pick all healing talents because that's what healers do, right?
As for Vengeful Roots, its winrate has consistently been higher across most leagues for months. Since it isn't one of those situational pick (i.e. Shrink Ray), it usually indicates a talent being slept on, and the talent is likely not the best in competitive play, where Elune's Grace really shines.
Also, I'd think even on this site most players are below 3k mmr, and this talent would likely be the best for them.
Master league data for talent picks isn't reliable, and what's popular certainly isn't always the best pick.
On November 04 2015 09:02 Pwere wrote: Underrated, and highest winrate on HotsLogs by far (and has been for months).
Better to look by league rather than in total - you'll see at master league, it isn't picked that much. Its higher win rate coming from bronze league doesn't mean all that much.
It's higher winrate is across all leagues except master, and that exception is only because it's taken so little in master league that there are no statistics on it.
Exactly. Rampant Growth is the number one pick, but that doesn't mean it's good. If you want that talent as Malf, you should have picked another healer. Which leads me to believe that Malf is mainly picked by people stuck with him because they don't buy supports. Then they pick all healing talents because that's what healers do, right?
As for Vengeful Roots, its winrate has consistently been higher across most leagues for months. Since it isn't one of those situational pick (i.e. Shrink Ray), it usually indicates a talent being slept on, and the talent is likely not the best in competitive play, where Elune's Grace really shines.
Also, I'd think even on this site most players are below 3k mmr, and this talent would likely be the best for them.
Master league data for talent picks isn't reliable, and what's popular certainly isn't always the best pick.
Unless you have given up on advancing I think you should play like people are actually as good as the ones you really wanna play against. Like not going the hunt just because whatever noobs you just happen to play against are still solo pushing lanes 20 mins into the game. And if you play malf expect to be punished for being slightly out of position and then evaluate your talent choices.
Well he has a point that if he went by Hotslog Master's then he should be taking Rampant Growth and not Elune's Grace. That said, I'm not sure Vengeful Roots is really that great, the treant is just so easily ignored. But it is tempting to have a little guy there even if you miss the root.
We also don't know the enemy comps when those talents were chosen. Maybe when the other team is very low on damage and can't punish malf easily, it IS better to have treants.
Just think by yourself about your pick on tier 4 malf.
For other talent tiers/heroes just looking at statistics is fine, but here each talent provides something different and all 3 are good. But i really like Elune grace and imo rampant growth is meh (its probably because malf is a circunstatial pick for me, if i need burst heal i just play something else). While Vengeful roots tickles a bit and is annoying, i don't think its enough, but if i need wave clear i consider it.
That's the thing with the Treant. When you first use it, it doesn't look like much, but months of data show it's really good at all levels, meaning it can't be that situational. The only way anyone uses that skill is if he checks HotsLogs, tests it, and picks it in games he doesn't need Elune's Grace. But since Malf is on the weaker side, very few ppl really main him, and they usually copy competitive builds. Some comps simply don't threaten Malf, so you'd rather have the little guy, which clearly does a lot.
Lots of skills were shown to be better on HotsLogs before they became popular. Tyrande's Shadowstalk had an absurd winrate in its first week, yet it was rarely picked. But now it's picked over 80% at diamond/Master. Stitches' Bile has been 5-10% above Gouge since his rework, yet it's not flashy so people keep taking Gouge. Knight Takes Pawn was quickly dismissed when Johanna came out, yet it had the best winrate by far from day 1, but it took weeks before it got popular.
FWIW Garbels, I am Master/Rank 1, so you can assume I put a bit of thought behind my picks. Also, I must admit I spend way too long looking at HotsLogs. I have a pretty good grasp of what's significant and what isn't on that site!
I dunno, I'm level 9 with Malf and I think I would always rather have more healing output or greater range. Pretty much all of Malf's strength for me is in his CC and picking targets with moonfire. Both of those become a lot easier with Elune's Grace.
Lvl 9 Malf here too, he definitely does a lot of that, but in some of situations, your team is the one getting dived on, and then I'd rather have more pushing power and the annoying little guy. The damage is pretty significant for objectives like Mines, Garden or Spiders.
I don't play Malf that much anymore, but it's definitely viable and a fun talent when you get to pick it.
Edit: FWIW, Treant deals 140dps for 10s at level 20. That's a bit more than his continuous AA for the entire duration.
On November 05 2015 12:44 Larkin wrote: I dunno, I'm level 9 with Malf and I think I would always rather have more healing output or greater range. Pretty much all of Malf's strength for me is in his CC and picking targets with moonfire. Both of those become a lot easier with Elune's Grace.
Depends on the team. The treant talent is solid because it gives Malf some autonomy, but in terms of coordinated teamwork, the healing/range upgrades just outweigh the bits of damage that come from the treant, especially if the enemy team has lots of AoE damage. Like all talent choices, it's a tradeoff between certain strengths for others ^^.
That said, I think if you soloQ QM, treant is probably a good way to go, especially with the prevalence of leavers/AFKers that seem to be common recently. It can be used in coordinated teams if your team lacks a bit of wave clear, but otherwise, I don't think the damage stacks up quite as high as people think.
I'm just happy there are talents that offer a legitimate choice, with benefits and drawbacks. On the other hand, did you guys know Zagara has a second ultimate ability? It turns out it isn't an urban legend.
On November 05 2015 13:16 Hier wrote: I'm just happy there are talents that offer a legitimate choice, with benefits and drawbacks. On the other hand, did you guys know Zagara has a second ultimate ability? It turns out it isn't an urban legend.
On November 05 2015 13:16 Hier wrote: On the other hand, did you guys know Zagara has a second ultimate ability? It turns out it isn't an urban legend.
I have honestly never seen anyone pick Vengeful Roots since I started playing many months ago, and I've never picked it myself. I'm going to try it next time but I really like Elune's Grace and it kinda also adds damage since it lets you use Moonfire more often. The thing is that Entangling Roots costs so much mana compared to its damage output that I rarely use it, and Moonfire is already more than enough against minions/mercs with the Moonburn talent. I'm curious how much damage the Treant does and how much HP it has compared to Stitches' Retchling from his level 13 talent. But if you're going for Vengeful Roots you might as well pick Hardened Focus at 16 for more trees.
On November 05 2015 12:44 Larkin wrote: I dunno, I'm level 9 with Malf and I think I would always rather have more healing output or greater range. Pretty much all of Malf's strength for me is in his CC and picking targets with moonfire. Both of those become a lot easier with Elune's Grace.
Depends on the team. The treant talent is solid because it gives Malf some autonomy, but in terms of coordinated teamwork, the healing/range upgrades just outweigh the bits of damage that come from the treant, especially if the enemy team has lots of AoE damage. Like all talent choices, it's a tradeoff between certain strengths for others ^^.
That said, I think if you soloQ QM, treant is probably a good way to go, especially with the prevalence of leavers/AFKers that seem to be common recently. It can be used in coordinated teams if your team lacks a bit of wave clear, but otherwise, I don't think the damage stacks up quite as high as people think.
Sure, it gives a bit more autonomy/wave clear (though Malf's waveclear is pretty strong anyway with Moonburn) but I would say that as a healer you don't exactly want to be autonomous, you should be with your team. I've found much more success with Malf when I'm not sitting in lane because no one else is.
That said, it's sick for a full damage Malf build with Twilight Dream.
I also would point out that while it does damage, most people will just, yknow, move away from it, so it won't even do all that much. It's great if you land the root. But they're kinda hard to land consistently... unless you get Elune's Grace... :D
On November 05 2015 14:37 Freezard wrote: I have honestly never seen anyone pick Vengeful Roots since I started playing many months ago, and I've never picked it myself. I'm going to try it next time but I really like Elune's Grace and it kinda also adds damage since it lets you use Moonfire more often. The thing is that Entangling Roots costs so much mana compared to its damage output that I rarely use it, and Moonfire is already more than enough against minions/mercs with the Moonburn talent. I'm curious how much damage the Treant does and how much HP it has compared to Stitches' Retchling from his level 13 talent. But if you're going for Vengeful Roots you might as well pick Hardened Focus at 16 for more trees.
Pretty much this I never use Roots for damage, mana cost is just to high. Moonfire with Moonburn on minions and mercs has to be enough Also, beeing solo in a lane with malf is 99% wrong cause you are probably needed somewhere else For the heals For the Mana (Innervate), otherwise your trait is useless which is a huge waste of potential
Only reason for beeing alone in a line is when the rest is dead i guess
Hardened Focus is my goto lvl 16 talent. only if the team is lacking severly on CC will i pick sth else... is that wrong? what do the numbers say?
@Larkin and Pwere: being level 9 doesn't mean anything, really. I'm level 8 with him and I try to avoid playing him at all costs as I suck with him. I mean, your discussion is very interesting and I'm not trolling. But level 9 doesn't show much expertise. It's less than 30 HL games or so, so it's not much (my profile show 16 wins and I think it's not even 16 HL wins). Again, both your arguments are great and you make me want to try him again TBH.
As a level 8 the only piece of advice I'd dare to give is don't go solo. Never ever. Harris1st just pointed the reasons. A support with nothing to support is useless (Tassadar would be the only exception IMO). And Innervate is an awesome trait, don't let it go to waste, it should always be on CD. If the restored mana showed in the score screen I'm sure Malf would be much more popular.
On November 05 2015 13:16 Hier wrote: On the other hand, did you guys know Zagara has a second ultimate ability? It turns out it isn't an urban legend.
Zagara can use Maw twice?
Upgrade it on 20 and just 4 heroes fo the enemy have to die so you can use it another time !
Also if you can't land any Maw, go for the urban legend. And take Battle Momentum.
May sound weird but Malf and Azmo together is HUUUUUGE! Malf with tenacious roots at 16 and Azmo Basketball build destroyed our team big time. I guess they duo queued, cause their coordination was a step above everyone elses. Everytime someone got rooted, the Big Ball of Boom™ was incoming. In the replay i saw that they were indeed laning together from the start, stacking up
On November 05 2015 13:16 Hier wrote: I'm just happy there are talents that offer a legitimate choice, with benefits and drawbacks. On the other hand, did you guys know Zagara has a second ultimate ability? It turns out it isn't an urban legend.
Heresy! Out with you!
Oh come now, Nydus isn't *that* bad, it's just that Maw is that good. Nydus in combination with an Abathur copy can do some work against Keeps although you do rely on the enemy team not defending in time and not forcing a teamfight whilst you and Abathur are busy.
The main issue with Nydus is that loading in takes too long, you can only have 4 Nydus worms active (why not more?!) and you can't plant another one whilst in a Nydus. Trying to get out of one can be a bit dodgy as well sometimes with the minimap.
It also doesn't really do anything by itself other than transport Zagara. Maybe if it spawned Broodlings in smaller numbers by default it would be a useful pushing tool. Or that at level 20, allies can use it as well.
On November 05 2015 11:50 Pwere wrote: That's the thing with the Treant. When you first use it, it doesn't look like much, but months of data show it's really good at all levels, meaning it can't be that situational. The only way anyone uses that skill is if he checks HotsLogs, tests it, and picks it in games he doesn't need Elune's Grace. But since Malf is on the weaker side, very few ppl really main him, and they usually copy competitive builds. Some comps simply don't threaten Malf, so you'd rather have the little guy, which clearly does a lot.
Lots of skills were shown to be better on HotsLogs before they became popular. Tyrande's Shadowstalk had an absurd winrate in its first week, yet it was rarely picked. But now it's picked over 80% at diamond/Master. Stitches' Bile has been 5-10% above Gouge since his rework, yet it's not flashy so people keep taking Gouge. Knight Takes Pawn was quickly dismissed when Johanna came out, yet it had the best winrate by far from day 1, but it took weeks before it got popular.
FWIW Garbels, I am Master/Rank 1, so you can assume I put a bit of thought behind my picks. Also, I must admit I spend way too long looking at HotsLogs. I have a pretty good grasp of what's significant and what isn't on that site!
I realize now that my comment can be read as me thinking you are bad. But what I was commenting on was your suggestion for <3k mmr people. In my example I was not addressing you specificilly I was addressing everyone. What I wanted to say is that I think it is bad practice (for anyone who wants to play better) to pick talents or play a certain way that exploits a weakness of someone who is not as good as you are trying to become.
On November 05 2015 19:18 Harris1st wrote: Hardened Focus is my goto lvl 16 talent. only if the team is lacking severly on CC will i pick sth else... is that wrong? what do the numbers say?
I'm a fan of Tenacious Roots. The longer root time (1.5 + .5 = 2.0s) just guarantees that anyone caught it in is gonna get fucked up, and the extra radius makes it more difficult to avoid during team fights. I think Hardened Focus is really good if your team is has a solid front line and you're not afraid of getting jumped on during team fights...but otherwise, it's only half a talent (less, really) since it just doesn't work when you drop below 80%. You don't want to be using heals on yourself other than Tranq, so if you're taking any damage at all, you're going to have to be wary of dropping below 80% health and becoming less effective. Whatever the case, Tenacious Roots is better imo since it's useful in all situations.
Hindering Moonfire can be a fun talent to take, though it's probably subpar to Tenacious Roots (Root > slow).
I used to always pick Hardened Focus but nowadays I take Hindering Moonfire since you can keep someone slowed for 2 out of 3 seconds constantly. Of course if your team has a lot of stun/cc then it's not worth taking, but sometimes you only have one guy that has some kind of slow on your team and then it's great, it really punishes heroes that go in for pokes and heroes like Nova (again Elune's Grace makes the slow very easy to hit). If I'm going full healing I'd pick Hardened Focus though.
You make some valid points John. Next time I'm definitely thinking harder/ more game dependant about which lvl 16 talent i take.
Specially the point where you get dived at/ focused: Rembering a game where i played uther and got pretty much ignored because of the trait and DS, so i took hardened focus at 16 and DS lvl 20 ^^
On another note: Divine Shield is the hard counter to Artanis Lazer, pretty much cancels out the full duration. very annoying when your best bet was to wipe the enemy team with the 20 upgrade
On November 05 2015 13:16 Hier wrote: I'm just happy there are talents that offer a legitimate choice, with benefits and drawbacks. On the other hand, did you guys know Zagara has a second ultimate ability? It turns out it isn't an urban legend.
User was warned for spreading lies
You mean the bugged maw that has four charges but never successfully grabs anything and doesn't clear away after you cast it?
On November 06 2015 00:56 Harris1st wrote: On another note: Divine Shield is the hard counter to Artanis Lazer, pretty much cancels out the full duration. very annoying when your best bet was to wipe the enemy team with the 20 upgrade
Yes, you need to wait out DS before you cast the laser in many circumstances. But here's the thing with Artanis -- particularly in the late game: he presents enough of a threat to the enemy team that he can create favorably uneven matchups for the rest of his team elsewhere. One of the hardest parts about playing Artanis is choosing whom to attack. In some cases, the best move is to maul the enemy frontline with your team. In others, the better move is to dive the backline and tie up 2-3 enemy heroes while your allies destroy the frontline.
On November 05 2015 20:18 Leolio wrote: @Larkin and Pwere: being level 9 doesn't mean anything, really.
Heh, yeah I know that, it was just a fun coincidence. But I must admit, I only have one lvl 10 hero (Li Li), so my level 9s are those I considered I played a lot.
On November 05 2015 11:50 Pwere wrote: That's the thing with the Treant. When you first use it, it doesn't look like much, but months of data show it's really good at all levels, meaning it can't be that situational. The only way anyone uses that skill is if he checks HotsLogs, tests it, and picks it in games he doesn't need Elune's Grace. But since Malf is on the weaker side, very few ppl really main him, and they usually copy competitive builds. Some comps simply don't threaten Malf, so you'd rather have the little guy, which clearly does a lot.
Lots of skills were shown to be better on HotsLogs before they became popular. Tyrande's Shadowstalk had an absurd winrate in its first week, yet it was rarely picked. But now it's picked over 80% at diamond/Master. Stitches' Bile has been 5-10% above Gouge since his rework, yet it's not flashy so people keep taking Gouge. Knight Takes Pawn was quickly dismissed when Johanna came out, yet it had the best winrate by far from day 1, but it took weeks before it got popular.
FWIW Garbels, I am Master/Rank 1, so you can assume I put a bit of thought behind my picks. Also, I must admit I spend way too long looking at HotsLogs. I have a pretty good grasp of what's significant and what isn't on that site!
I realize now that my comment can be read as me thinking you are bad. But what I was commenting on was your suggestion for <3k mmr people. In my example I was not addressing you specificilly I was addressing everyone. What I wanted to say is that I think it is bad practice (for anyone who wants to play better) to pick talents or play a certain way that exploits a weakness of someone who is not as good as you are trying to become.
I did misunderstand what you were saying, but I also disagree with this. I think it's fine to use talents that exploit those you play against, and to find out why they do not work at higher levels. Also, you will always have to play with lower level players, and knowing when to pull out the old pub stomper helps to carry a team. Thankfully it's much easier to know this now that you can see ranks during loading screens.
On November 05 2015 14:37 Freezard wrote: I have honestly never seen anyone pick Vengeful Roots since I started playing many months ago, and I've never picked it myself. I'm going to try it next time but I really like Elune's Grace and it kinda also adds damage since it lets you use Moonfire more often. The thing is that Entangling Roots costs so much mana compared to its damage output that I rarely use it, and Moonfire is already more than enough against minions/mercs with the Moonburn talent. I'm curious how much damage the Treant does and how much HP it has compared to Stitches' Retchling from his level 13 talent. But if you're going for Vengeful Roots you might as well pick Hardened Focus at 16 for more trees.
Oh hey Freezard I played with you the other day ^^ tomb of the spider queen with the Butcher who decided to go for a shit in the beginning I think... you were Azmodan, I was Tyrande? Maybe?
On November 05 2015 20:18 Leolio wrote: @Larkin and Pwere: being level 9 doesn't mean anything, really. I'm level 8 with him and I try to avoid playing him at all costs as I suck with him. I mean, your discussion is very interesting and I'm not trolling. But level 9 doesn't show much expertise. It's less than 30 HL games or so, so it's not much (my profile show 16 wins and I think it's not even 16 HL wins). Again, both your arguments are great and you make me want to try him again TBH.
Yeah I know, I'm just saying I have some basis for my personal opinions as he is one of my most played supports - I'm not purely theorycrafting (or theorystorming) here.
I enjoy playing him and think he has a lot of utility. Just think the utility is more in the form of healing, sniping, slowing and rooting than having a weird little tree thing that whacks people.
Quick question about Uther, my healing numbers never feel impressive, I'm led to believe his strength is in burst healing and his stun (god damned stuns) but maybe I'm doing something wrong playwise? He seems so damn mana hungry that I'm usually hesitant to top people off early unless I see a serious lack of people in lane or like double stealth or something.
Is Uther's healing just meant to be bursty rather than enormous or am I playing dumb
EDIT: Also how likely is he to get nerfed, 'cause I dont like playing melee support and I want an excuse to play Brightwing. >.>
His numbers will not stack up to other heroes, but he makes up for it in utility(stuns, cleanse) and divine shield. Also having a good target for shrink ray is semi-important, since that is another power spike if you are up against melee attacking dive characters.
As far as getting nerfed, I am unsure. If they nerf divine shield too much I don't think he'll be very viable, since the strength behind divine shield is it is the only true cleanse out there. IMO
Uther rarely tops the healing numbers whenever I play him and yes he is a burst healer. More of a OMG-save-that-hero-NOW healer than a Malfurion casting Regrowth on everyone and getting 120k healing at the end of a long game. Li Li and Malfurion will generally heal more in raw numbers.
Once you get Benediction at lvl 16 though, you should be getting a bit higher healing numbers since you can double heal in a fight unless you need the double stun.
I play Uther strongly towards his utility and active talents, getting Protective Shield at 4, Cleanse on 7, Shrink Ray on 13 and Benediction on 16. This allows you to virtually save any one hero from a really bad spot and recently I've gotten away with some crazy saves although Divine Shield is still amazing for that as well.
One thing I did notice with Uther is that he is a much less forgiving support than Malfurion or Li Li. With Uther you do have to be more mindful of who you heal first since it has such a long cooldown and heals a lot instantly. On top of that, there are few talents that directly boost his healing numbers, unlike Malfurion or Li Li. This means his healing has to be given to the right hero at the right time.
If mana is getting lower I'd stop topping people off and only focus on keeping heroes alive rather than at 100%. Generally I heal squishies first unless the tank is right in the thick of it, since 50% on a squishy is a lot less than 50% on a tank. I heal myself last unless I'm actually that low and the team can survive the cooldown.
His mana issues are strongest (and most painful) in the early game, when a heal for 90 mana equals to almost a fifth of your mana pool. His mana globe talent is a must at lvl 1 and once you get around level 13+ with some globes stacked you should generally have enough mana for every teamfight. I don't have any mana issues at lvl 20+. Don't be afraid to back out and hearth if mana runs very low and no immediate threat is out though.
On November 06 2015 03:22 Larkin wrote: Oh hey Freezard I played with you the other day ^^ tomb of the spider queen with the Butcher who decided to go for a shit in the beginning I think... you were Azmodan, I was Tyrande? Maybe?
Yeah I see that we played together through the match history, I don't remember the game though but I've played 30 games with Azmodan the past 3 days so it's all blurry :<
This kind of ties into the problems with martingale betting strategies and how humans generally erroneously think long strings of the same result are uncommon in win/loss scenarios when these streaks are actually an expected outcome.
The main thing is that a losing streak sucks more than how a winning streak feels good. I'd rather have smaller winning and losing streaks then the current system where I've had periods of losing 15+ out of 20 games in both QM and HL and then winning 15+ out of 20 games the next week. The winning streak feels nice but a long losing streak is more detrimental to gameplay than a long winning streak is beneficial to it.
On November 06 2015 03:22 Larkin wrote: Oh hey Freezard I played with you the other day ^^ tomb of the spider queen with the Butcher who decided to go for a shit in the beginning I think... you were Azmodan, I was Tyrande? Maybe?
Yeah I see that we played together through the match history, I don't remember the game though but I've played 30 games with Azmodan the past 3 days so it's all blurry :<
It was tomb of the spider queen, we had an Arthas and an Abathur with us, I died a couple times in the beginning due to laning against two alone then Butcher came back and we started getting back into it. was a bit back and forth but we were clearly better, though Butcher kept going too deep to be kept alive and their Monk was getting DPs off on Kael'thas. we all died in a fight near boss and it looked like we had thrown but we ended up defending and coming back anyway. was a pretty long game, think we were level 25 by the end, but a fun one regardless ^^
On November 06 2015 03:22 Larkin wrote: Oh hey Freezard I played with you the other day ^^ tomb of the spider queen with the Butcher who decided to go for a shit in the beginning I think... you were Azmodan, I was Tyrande? Maybe?
Yeah I see that we played together through the match history, I don't remember the game though but I've played 30 games with Azmodan the past 3 days so it's all blurry :<
It was tomb of the spider queen, we had an Arthas and an Abathur with us, I died a couple times in the beginning due to laning against two alone then Butcher came back and we started getting back into it. was a bit back and forth but we were clearly better, though Butcher kept going too deep to be kept alive and their Monk was getting DPs off on Kael'thas. we all died in a fight near boss and it looked like we had thrown but we ended up defending and coming back anyway. was a pretty long game, think we were level 25 by the end, but a fun one regardless ^^
Yeah I watched the replay and it was a nice game, was funny when Butcher said "kill one then boss" and we got recked :D He always charged in for Kaelthas too. I was a bit annoyed that I got hit by Gazlow's bombs all the time, but eventually I got max stacks and they never really had any chance late game.
On November 05 2015 11:50 Pwere wrote: That's the thing with the Treant. When you first use it, it doesn't look like much, but months of data show it's really good at all levels, meaning it can't be that situational. The only way anyone uses that skill is if he checks HotsLogs, tests it, and picks it in games he doesn't need Elune's Grace. But since Malf is on the weaker side, very few ppl really main him, and they usually copy competitive builds. Some comps simply don't threaten Malf, so you'd rather have the little guy, which clearly does a lot.
Lots of skills were shown to be better on HotsLogs before they became popular. Tyrande's Shadowstalk had an absurd winrate in its first week, yet it was rarely picked. But now it's picked over 80% at diamond/Master. Stitches' Bile has been 5-10% above Gouge since his rework, yet it's not flashy so people keep taking Gouge. Knight Takes Pawn was quickly dismissed when Johanna came out, yet it had the best winrate by far from day 1, but it took weeks before it got popular.
FWIW Garbels, I am Master/Rank 1, so you can assume I put a bit of thought behind my picks. Also, I must admit I spend way too long looking at HotsLogs. I have a pretty good grasp of what's significant and what isn't on that site!
I realize now that my comment can be read as me thinking you are bad. But what I was commenting on was your suggestion for <3k mmr people. In my example I was not addressing you specificilly I was addressing everyone. What I wanted to say is that I think it is bad practice (for anyone who wants to play better) to pick talents or play a certain way that exploits a weakness of someone who is not as good as you are trying to become.
I did misunderstand what you were saying, but I also disagree with this. I think it's fine to use talents that exploit those you play against, and to find out why they do not work at higher levels. Also, you will always have to play with lower level players, and knowing when to pull out the old pub stomper helps to carry a team. Thankfully it's much easier to know this now that you can see ranks during loading screens.
But what do you actually gain from that? When I was new someone gifted me Zeratul. I started playing him with assassins blade because I saw that in a guide. When I realized what I actually want is wormhole I considered the 40 or so games with assassins blade time I could have used better even though my winrate is higher with blade than wormhole. Now of course its good to figure stuff out but I think what I needed was someone to tell me about wormhole so I can practice the 'right' way from the start. Its like playing 6 pool to masters and then realizing you can't win a straight up game. I guess it does not matter for beating players below your level but I still would rather play the spec I want and not the one that helps me win 5 minutes faster.
Wormhole is a pretty specific example. Most talents don't require much practice at all to use.
What you gain is that you recognize when the "out of meta" talent is actually good. Bolt of the Storm might not win games at low levels (because players suck with it), but it's still the best pick to take against these players on a ton of heroes. So I wouldn't recommend a player blindly go Fury of the Storm on Zagara everytime, even though he'll likely win more often with it right now. What I'd recommend is for him to learn both, as Fury is really strong, even though most games Bolt is what you need.
Little Treant Guy seems like an exception to this, as playing with Elune's Grace is actually much easier, but it hurts your output. That's why I think it's a good talent to learn. At some point you might wish you had more range for better positioning, then the option is there. Then you can pick based on map/comps and you're now a much better player.
For the record, I would consider picking Assassin's Blade over Wormhole now after the nerfs ^^. xDaunt has had a lot of success with this as well.
Also, maybe I'm just not getting it, but I never have trouble with this "positioning" you guys talk about when you don't take Elune's Grace on Malfurion. In fact, I don't seem to have much trouble in keeping Malfurion alive at all compared to some of the other healers. It could just be the epic roots, I dunno hehe.
On November 07 2015 01:53 SC2John wrote: For the record, I would consider picking Assassin's Blade over Wormhole now after the nerfs ^^. xDaunt has had a lot of success with this as well.
Also, maybe I'm just not getting it, but I never have trouble with this "positioning" you guys talk about when you don't take Elune's Grace on Malfurion. In fact, I don't seem to have much trouble in keeping Malfurion alive at all compared to some of the other healers. It could just be the epic roots, I dunno hehe.
I had a game yesterday on Blackheart's Bay where I had Zeratul (rest of my team was Artanis, Rehgar, Zagara, Jaina) and faced Johanna, ETC, Illidan, Uther, and Valla. Pretty shitty matchup for me, right? Well, I switched up my build, going for a sustained damage build, taking Regen Master, Vampiric Strike, Follow Through, VP, Assassin's Blade, Stoneskin, and Nexus Blades. I figured that burst damage would do nothing for me and that I needed a more sustained presence in fights. This build did the trick. I healed myself through all sorts of bullshit and only died a couple times against what should have been a miserable composition to face. Some solid VPs worked wonders, too.
On November 07 2015 01:53 SC2John wrote: For the record, I would consider picking Assassin's Blade over Wormhole now after the nerfs ^^. xDaunt has had a lot of success with this as well.
Also, maybe I'm just not getting it, but I never have trouble with this "positioning" you guys talk about when you don't take Elune's Grace on Malfurion. In fact, I don't seem to have much trouble in keeping Malfurion alive at all compared to some of the other healers. It could just be the epic roots, I dunno hehe.
The priority is safety with Malf, so i stay as safe as possible. I think the positioning difficulty without elune grace is reaching good roots and regrowth in some heroes like a zeratul or Illidan. You also miss some nice moonfire opportunities but its no biggie, safety first.
On November 05 2015 11:50 Pwere wrote: That's the thing with the Treant. When you first use it, it doesn't look like much, but months of data show it's really good at all levels, meaning it can't be that situational. The only way anyone uses that skill is if he checks HotsLogs, tests it, and picks it in games he doesn't need Elune's Grace. But since Malf is on the weaker side, very few ppl really main him, and they usually copy competitive builds. Some comps simply don't threaten Malf, so you'd rather have the little guy, which clearly does a lot.
Lots of skills were shown to be better on HotsLogs before they became popular. Tyrande's Shadowstalk had an absurd winrate in its first week, yet it was rarely picked. But now it's picked over 80% at diamond/Master. Stitches' Bile has been 5-10% above Gouge since his rework, yet it's not flashy so people keep taking Gouge. Knight Takes Pawn was quickly dismissed when Johanna came out, yet it had the best winrate by far from day 1, but it took weeks before it got popular.
FWIW Garbels, I am Master/Rank 1, so you can assume I put a bit of thought behind my picks. Also, I must admit I spend way too long looking at HotsLogs. I have a pretty good grasp of what's significant and what isn't on that site!
I realize now that my comment can be read as me thinking you are bad. But what I was commenting on was your suggestion for <3k mmr people. In my example I was not addressing you specificilly I was addressing everyone. What I wanted to say is that I think it is bad practice (for anyone who wants to play better) to pick talents or play a certain way that exploits a weakness of someone who is not as good as you are trying to become.
I did misunderstand what you were saying, but I also disagree with this. I think it's fine to use talents that exploit those you play against, and to find out why they do not work at higher levels. Also, you will always have to play with lower level players, and knowing when to pull out the old pub stomper helps to carry a team. Thankfully it's much easier to know this now that you can see ranks during loading screens.
But what do you actually gain from that? When I was new someone gifted me Zeratul. I started playing him with assassins blade because I saw that in a guide. When I realized what I actually want is wormhole I considered the 40 or so games with assassins blade time I could have used better even though my winrate is higher with blade than wormhole. Now of course its good to figure stuff out but I think what I needed was someone to tell me about wormhole so I can practice the 'right' way from the start. Its like playing 6 pool to masters and then realizing you can't win a straight up game. I guess it does not matter for beating players below your level but I still would rather play the spec I want and not the one that helps me win 5 minutes faster.
But what happens when the meta changes? Like when Monk came out and people wrote off Divine Palm as easy to play around didn't bother practicing how to land it?
Of if you're Arthas and all you ever do is Army because it's great and everyone picks up but then you find yourself on Mines/Tomb as the third warrior. Would be nice to bust our Sindragosa I'd say.
It's generally not wasted time learning how different talents effect your playstyle, especially something as play-changing as Elune's Grace and Wormhole.
BTW, found this on reddit. Maybe it's accurate or not? per hero MMR would be insane and welcome but I wonder what that'll do to your ranking in HL? Can't wait to see how much (if any of this) is true.
On November 07 2015 02:56 Wuster wrote: BTW, found this on reddit. Maybe it's accurate or not? per hero MMR would be insane and welcome but I wonder what that'll do to your ranking in HL? Can't wait to see how much (if any of this) is true.
I'm all for the MMR change. People should be punished for playing horrifically and dying all of the time. Conversely, I shouldn't be punished when they do it.
They talked about in-game metrics for determining mmr before (around launch iirc). And they have a lot of data to work with, and model against to see how well that translates to faster/more accurate convergence (which will be important if you're going to segment MMR by hero now too!).
I don't know, more details will be needed but I assume if they're still talking about it months later they must have something at least half-way plausible.
It sounds like the larger issue is that either you are being matched with people with much lower MMRs in the first place(in which case punishing them or rewarding you won't help-- the matchmaking is the problem), or you are getting matched with people with similar MMRs whose strengths are different from yours. (in which case punishing them isn't really helping determine how good of players they are--- it just encourages a specific style of play)
I guess fixing matchmaking and punishing playstyles you don't like will fix the problem of you being matched with teammates you don't like, though. right?
On November 07 2015 02:56 Wuster wrote: BTW, found this on reddit. Maybe it's accurate or not? per hero MMR would be insane and welcome but I wonder what that'll do to your ranking in HL? Can't wait to see how much (if any of this) is true.
Make MMR determined by performance in game, not just wins and losses
Do they know what they are doing?
Uh I thought that was already the case? I'm pretty sure I've heard game MMR is based on individual performance... if not they should definitely change it or people who go afk or don't do their best are not punished and vice versa.
On October 31 2015 03:43 MotherFox wrote: It's been announced there will be a reveal of two new maps and four new characters.
Czk/Sk Heroes of the Storm said... "We would like to take this opportunity to invite the planned live broadcast, which will be held already next weekend, and under which, hopefully, will introduce two new maps, at least four new heroes, and many other improvements that you, the players, will be surely enjoy."
was thinking which overwatch character might actually work in Heroes, and Tracer was the first one that came to my mind. And haha 3 more Warcraft heroes who would have thought.
Ya Tracer being in Heroes was actually spoiled yesterday or maybe two days ago? I forget, when the physical game stores started advertising the Overwatch Origins.
In anycase, so far that Reddit thread is accurate. Still very curious about all the MMR changes previewed.
To be fair, Tracer was basically confirmed months ago. We just didn't when she'd come out. She's expected to be the 2k hero for Overwatch, as they'll likely have at least one hero per price tier.
Also, they mentioned that they were working on the mmr thing before. I guess they're taking a cue from real sports to figure out mmr of new players faster. Good move, imo. They have all the stats they want already, this shouldn't be too hard.
Is it clear how Cho'gall works for team and playercount? Regular its 5 players with 5 heroes per team. With 2 players controlling 1 Heroe, does it become 5 vs 4 heroes oder 5 vs 6 players?
On November 07 2015 16:56 greenelve wrote: Is it clear how Cho'gall works for team and playercount? Regular its 5 players with 5 heroes per team. With 2 players controlling 1 Heroe, does it become 5 vs 4 heroes oder 5 vs 6 players?
He counts for two players, so if a normal team takes Cho'gall they will have 4 bodies on the field. (but still 5 heads)
In hero league you have to draft him at the exact same time as someone else. That means you can't draft him whenever you would draft a hero alone (firstpick or lastpick)
On November 07 2015 20:37 Garbels wrote: Hard part will not be getting cho'gall but getting the 2k2 gold. As it happens with all pyramid schemes a lot of people will be left over.
I had a similar thought.
On a topic completely unrelated to me wanting to secure 2.2k gold for myself and thus be at the top of the pyramid scheme, I think this character is dumb and people shouldn't seek out getting him. IF I HAVE TO I can show anyone the character out once he releases. After I get my 2.2k gold I may change this opinion.
yay I did it, my first viking hero league game where i managed a 5 level lead ! Was infernal shrines though and they actually went for the second objective instead of defending my Vikings in all 3 lanes with all 5 merc camps pushing for us. My team was so awesome at stalling.
Its no pyramid scheme, you just have to win or play can't remember 4 games with him and get 2.2k gold. So its a newbie booster. Have a friend new 2 heroes ? play Gall and have him play Cho after 2 games he has a 2 player hero. After 4 games he gets 2,2k gold. Meanwhile you have alot of time to type and annoy him by explaining the game.
The only harder part will be to get him. But you might find new friends because of this. Its an awesome promotion and basically free gold.
On November 07 2015 16:56 greenelve wrote: Is it clear how Cho'gall works for team and playercount? Regular its 5 players with 5 heroes per team. With 2 players controlling 1 Heroe, does it become 5 vs 4 heroes oder 5 vs 6 players?
I'm guessing he counts for two heroes, basically an inverse Lost Vikings.
On November 07 2015 16:56 greenelve wrote: Is it clear how Cho'gall works for team and playercount? Regular its 5 players with 5 heroes per team. With 2 players controlling 1 Heroe, does it become 5 vs 4 heroes oder 5 vs 6 players?
I'm guessing he counts for two heroes, basically an inverse Lost Vikings.
It does become 4 bodies versus 5. They are overtuning his numbers and talents to make it so that he is strong enough to represent two heroes...the balance might end up just being impossible, but we'll see.
So is Lunara the first hero that is actually based on WC3 and not WoW? Apparently the dryad models in WC3 were too low detailed so they had to remake them for HotS, which makes me think dryads have not appeared in WoW.
On November 08 2015 04:17 Freezard wrote: So is Lunara the first hero that is actually based on WC3 and not WoW? Apparently the dryad models in WC3 were too low detailed so they had to remake them for HotS, which makes me think dryads have not appeared in WoW.
There were dryads in wow too. They were general NPCs though if I recall correctly.
You know what needs to happen? Blizzard needs more art icons for non-identical talents. Sitting watching WCS and thinking "Which talent did that guy pick? It can be either of the two available to the hero!"
These are the important types of questions that should have been asked at the panels.
On November 08 2015 04:17 Freezard wrote: So is Lunara the first hero that is actually based on WC3 and not WoW? Apparently the dryad models in WC3 were too low detailed so they had to remake them for HotS, which makes me think dryads have not appeared in WoW.
WC3 was the basis for most of the WC characters. Other than LiLi, every WC char is from WC3 or is a character from both WC3 and WoW but who uses a WC3 model/look.
So I'm on Sky Temple playing Zagara and the game has been back and forth. But, we have no keeps left and the last temple already put out core at 74%. Enemy team has 1 keep left so I'm fearing the next temple phase is a win for the enemy team. To top it off, we lost Tyrael and Nova trying to contest the temple so its 3v5.
We see the enemy team trying to take a boss, and given our situation we try to intervene as best as possible and a three way fight occurs between both teams and the boss in the middle. Eventually the boss falls and all three of us rush straight onto the capture point and get it to 90% before their Valla dives onto it. But, she does so alone with the enemy team keeping a slight distance and our combined damage is killing her quickly and she moves off the capture point and we get the boss and also still kill Valla.
We then push with the boss straight onto their core and win the game.
I can only imagine how their Valla must've felt since it was a 3v5 right up to the point where we captured the boss. If they had pushed back onto the point they might've killed us, gotten the boss and won instead.
About Sky Temple itself, can it really even have a long game? Once the keeps are gone on one side and more than 1 temple activates, what can the defender do? The enemy team can just focus on 1 temple with all five heroes and as soon as the defender rotates they can do the same.
On November 08 2015 11:56 Valiver wrote: Well Lt. Morales has different color icons for the multiple talents in the same tier and that works nicely imo.
true actually, I almost always go for the same ones so I kinda forgot. But Artanis had the same icons again I remember, because I picked the wrong talents a couple of times and got rolled because I had no self sustain anymore.
With that in mind Morales talent coloring really helps.
Lots of Blizzcon facts/rumors floating around: - Small Uther nerf (divine shield CD and trait duration are considered) - MMR changes are coming, will use in-game performance - MMR per hero might be on the way - 3-4 man groups might be allowed back in ranked if MMR changes work - Unranked draft mode plan B if that doesn't work - Already reworking some older characters (Tychus and Gazlowe mentioned) - Arena is coming but probably not 2015 - Chogall will be a standard hero in the shop after the promotion - Chogall comes out Nov. 17th - Takedowns will be split between Kills and Assists, XP Stat is removed - Death recap screen is looking great! - Possibility of more detailed post-game stats - Ranked bans are coming - Talent gating will be completely removed - Weekly rotation increased from 7 to 10 - Tons more, I'm only one man
Note: Should probably start a new thread to discuss this..?
On November 09 2015 00:50 Thezzy wrote: So I'm on Sky Temple playing Zagara and the game has been back and forth. But, we have no keeps left and the last temple already put out core at 74%. Enemy team has 1 keep left so I'm fearing the next temple phase is a win for the enemy team. To top it off, we lost Tyrael and Nova trying to contest the temple so its 3v5.
We see the enemy team trying to take a boss, and given our situation we try to intervene as best as possible and a three way fight occurs between both teams and the boss in the middle. Eventually the boss falls and all three of us rush straight onto the capture point and get it to 90% before their Valla dives onto it. But, she does so alone with the enemy team keeping a slight distance and our combined damage is killing her quickly and she moves off the capture point and we get the boss and also still kill Valla.
We then push with the boss straight onto their core and win the game.
I can only imagine how their Valla must've felt since it was a 3v5 right up to the point where we captured the boss. If they had pushed back onto the point they might've killed us, gotten the boss and won instead.
About Sky Temple itself, can it really even have a long game? Once the keeps are gone on one side and more than 1 temple activates, what can the defender do? The enemy team can just focus on 1 temple with all five heroes and as soon as the defender rotates they can do the same.
In QM with only assassins and Abathur Tassadar on both sides, it takes an eternity.
On November 08 2015 11:54 FeyFey wrote: uh think that goes against their talents design. So the custom UI guys will have to come up with a solution.
This made no sense whatsoever.
On November 08 2015 11:56 Valiver wrote: Well Lt. Morales has different color icons for the multiple talents in the same tier and that works nicely imo.
WHAT NOW, HOW MANY STATIC CHARGE BUILDS ON TASSADAR DID YOU SEE DURING BLIZZCON.
Sorry, I just wanted to glory in my triumph in insisting that Static Charge was just bad. In any case, Deep Shift makes Tassadar a lot "tankier" and allows him to poke out alone and get vision away for the team anytime he wants to.
* Teamwiping the enemy with Leoric's march of the black king is perhaps the coolest feeling in the world. (especially when each of the three swipes kills a different enemy)
* Jaina is really strong. I've been overlooking Icy Veins for far too long.
* I usually prefer KT to Jaina, because KT has a stun and I feel like I can duel with him better. Tonight someone took KT, so I drafted Jaina instead. I decided to go a standard build with ice block, which I usually don't do--- I frequently get storm front for extra safety. I was dueling KT, thinking I was going to lose because I usually win as KT when dueling enemy jainas. He gravity lapsed me, then used his flamestrike and living bomb. The moment I got out of the gravity lapse I hit iceblock just on impulse, and then both the flamestrike and living bomb completely wiffed as a result.
Holy f^$#ing s$#! How did this never occur to me before? Jaina can iceblock out of almost every single bit of damage that KT can churn out. As soon as the spells wiffed I un-iceblocked and killed him. The game proceeded that way with him never being able to work out how to actually get damage onto me.
* I used ring of frost exclusively tonight, which is a departure from my usual water elemental. I don't know if this thing was buffed or if enemy teams just stand in circles a lot now, but it's really easy to hit with and if you hit the other team just frequently gets wiped completely by the followup jaina combo+whatever your team does. This ult had me feeling like a tiny icy god.
* Muradin remains in the wowzer good category for me. There's something so clean feeling about dwarf tossing, stunning, and then thunderclapping someone to death.
* My zeratul play leaves much to be desired. I don't get top kill counts, and I don't get top hero damage--- but I am getting very good at landing void prisms. I almost wonder if this is related to my newfound ability to land rings of frost...
On November 09 2015 11:10 SC2John wrote: WHAT NOW, HOW MANY STATIC CHARGE BUILDS ON TASSADAR DID YOU SEE DURING BLIZZCON.
Sorry, I just wanted to glory in my triumph in insisting that Static Charge was just bad. In any case, Deep Shift makes Tassadar a lot "tankier" and allows him to poke out alone and get vision away for the team anytime he wants to.
? C9 almost always use Static Charge, and they have won the Blizzcon and are the team that use Tassadar the most so... :/
On November 09 2015 11:10 SC2John wrote: WHAT NOW, HOW MANY STATIC CHARGE BUILDS ON TASSADAR DID YOU SEE DURING BLIZZCON.
Sorry, I just wanted to glory in my triumph in insisting that Static Charge was just bad. In any case, Deep Shift makes Tassadar a lot "tankier" and allows him to poke out alone and get vision away for the team anytime he wants to.
? C9 almost always use Static Charge, and they have won the Blizzcon and are the team that use Tassadar the most so... :/
C9's Tassadar play blows. Well, it was better on Fan.
DK and Bheart play a much more convincing Tassadar.
On November 09 2015 11:10 SC2John wrote: WHAT NOW, HOW MANY STATIC CHARGE BUILDS ON TASSADAR DID YOU SEE DURING BLIZZCON.
Sorry, I just wanted to glory in my triumph in insisting that Static Charge was just bad. In any case, Deep Shift makes Tassadar a lot "tankier" and allows him to poke out alone and get vision away for the team anytime he wants to.
? C9 almost always use Static Charge, and they have won the Blizzcon and are the team that use Tassadar the most so... :/
C9's Tassadar play blows. Well, it was better on Fan.
DK and Bheart play a much more convincing Tassadar.
For me winning a Blizzcon while being the team who played Tassadar "the most" is quite convincing. Doesn't matter if Dk and Bheart play much "better" Tassadar when they haven't been able to do anything with it.
In the end that talent isn't such huge deal, if you need more damage I would go for Static Charge, if you need to survive more or are main support, Shield and Deep Shift are better talents.
On November 09 2015 11:10 SC2John wrote: WHAT NOW, HOW MANY STATIC CHARGE BUILDS ON TASSADAR DID YOU SEE DURING BLIZZCON.
Sorry, I just wanted to glory in my triumph in insisting that Static Charge was just bad. In any case, Deep Shift makes Tassadar a lot "tankier" and allows him to poke out alone and get vision away for the team anytime he wants to.
? C9 almost always use Static Charge, and they have won the Blizzcon and are the team that use Tassadar the most so... :/
C9's Tassadar play blows. Well, it was better on Fan.
DK and Bheart play a much more convincing Tassadar.
For me winning a Blizzcon while being the team who played Tassadar "the most" is quite convincing. Doesn't matter if Dk and Bheart play much "better" Tassadar when they haven't been able to do anything with it.
In the end that talent isn't such huge deal, if you need more damage I would go for Static Charge, if you need to survive more or are main support, Shield and Deep Shift are better talents.
It's not like C9 won off the back of excellent Tassadar play -_-. Saying "they won the tournament, so their Tassadar play must be good" is a complete overgeneralization.
In any case, my point was that on Day 2 and 3, we only saw one Tassadar build with Static Charge; mind you, that was the Murky game. There was a very obvious shift in the builds players were doing away from Static Charge to Deep Shift, and it's not like the compositions were any different. Quit trying to cover your eyes.
I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection.
* Jaina is really strong. I've been overlooking Icy Veins for far too long.
* I usually prefer KT to Jaina, because KT has a stun and I feel like I can duel with him better. Tonight someone took KT, so I drafted Jaina instead. I decided to go a standard build with ice block, which I usually don't do--- I frequently get storm front for extra safety. I was dueling KT, thinking I was going to lose because I usually win as KT when dueling enemy jainas. He gravity lapsed me, then used his flamestrike and living bomb. The moment I got out of the gravity lapse I hit iceblock just on impulse, and then both the flamestrike and living bomb completely wiffed as a result.
Holy f^$#ing s$#! How did this never occur to me before? Jaina can iceblock out of almost every single bit of damage that KT can churn out. As soon as the spells wiffed I un-iceblocked and killed him. The game proceeded that way with him never being able to work out how to actually get damage onto me.
1. Double bombs then lapse? Should bring Jaina down to at least 50% 2. Stay at max range with KT, so Cone is useless and bolts miss a lot 3. Repeat step 1 with a flamestrike after lapse 4. ... 5. Money
* Jaina is really strong. I've been overlooking Icy Veins for far too long.
* I usually prefer KT to Jaina, because KT has a stun and I feel like I can duel with him better. Tonight someone took KT, so I drafted Jaina instead. I decided to go a standard build with ice block, which I usually don't do--- I frequently get storm front for extra safety. I was dueling KT, thinking I was going to lose because I usually win as KT when dueling enemy jainas. He gravity lapsed me, then used his flamestrike and living bomb. The moment I got out of the gravity lapse I hit iceblock just on impulse, and then both the flamestrike and living bomb completely wiffed as a result.
Holy f^$#ing s$#! How did this never occur to me before? Jaina can iceblock out of almost every single bit of damage that KT can churn out. As soon as the spells wiffed I un-iceblocked and killed him. The game proceeded that way with him never being able to work out how to actually get damage onto me.
1. Double bombs then lapse? Should bring Jaina down to at least 50% 2. Stay at max range with KT, so Cone is useless and bolts miss a lot 3. Repeat step 1 with a flamestrike after lapse 4. ... 5. Money
Also <3 Muradin!
Your #1 and #2 are contradictory: KT has to get close to cast bombs, which is why I typically stun, then walk up instead of the other way around. Though with Jainas there is always that dance of "wait until they use their abilities and then kill the stupid ice princess because she's useless now".
Also can't imagine missing KT with bolts since he is so fat, but then again I missed a lot of hammer tosses with muradin yesterday in fairly convincing fashion...
On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote: I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection.
Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him.
On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote: I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection.
Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him.
I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero.
On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote: I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection.
Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him.
I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero.
I don't think it is quite as simple as that: tassadar does many unique things not related to his 7 talent choice at all. The decision to sacrifice a little bit of survivability for a little bit of damage is nuanced enough that maybe only a pro would make that choice, but it's not completely a nonstarter IMO.
For instance, exactly which other hero would have been better for extra damage in c9's comp? Well, they clearly needed a little extra damage--- but tass's shields were a vital part of the comp's goal.
On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote: I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection.
Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him.
I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero.
I don't think it is quite as simple as that: tassadar does many unique things not related to his 7 talent choice at all. The decision to sacrifice a little bit of survivability for a little bit of damage is nuanced enough that maybe only a pro would make that choice, but it's not completely a nonstarter IMO.
For instance, exactly which other hero would have been better for extra damage in c9's comp? Well, they clearly needed a little extra damage--- but tass's shields were a vital part of the comp's goal.
Tassadar was chosen for his mobility and the ability to allow disengagements. The shielding is a bonus. The extra damage from Static Charge is insignificant,
On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote: I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection.
Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him.
I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero.
I don't think it is quite as simple as that: tassadar does many unique things not related to his 7 talent choice at all. The decision to sacrifice a little bit of survivability for a little bit of damage is nuanced enough that maybe only a pro would make that choice, but it's not completely a nonstarter IMO.
For instance, exactly which other hero would have been better for extra damage in c9's comp? Well, they clearly needed a little extra damage--- but tass's shields were a vital part of the comp's goal.
Tassadar was chosen for his mobility and the ability to allow disengagements. The shielding is a bonus. The extra damage from Static Charge is insignificant,
But still clearly more desirable to c9 than any of the other options at level 7 in that situation.
On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote: I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection.
Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him.
I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero.
I don't think it is quite as simple as that: tassadar does many unique things not related to his 7 talent choice at all. The decision to sacrifice a little bit of survivability for a little bit of damage is nuanced enough that maybe only a pro would make that choice, but it's not completely a nonstarter IMO.
For instance, exactly which other hero would have been better for extra damage in c9's comp? Well, they clearly needed a little extra damage--- but tass's shields were a vital part of the comp's goal.
Tassadar was chosen for his mobility and the ability to allow disengagements. The shielding is a bonus. The extra damage from Static Charge is insignificant,
But still clearly more desirable to c9 than any of the other options at level 7 in that situation.
You're presuming that C9's reasoning for taking that talent was sound. Mathematically, it's a very bad talent. And it's even worse when considering that Force Wall was taken over Archon.
On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote: I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection.
Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him.
I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero.
I don't think it is quite as simple as that: tassadar does many unique things not related to his 7 talent choice at all. The decision to sacrifice a little bit of survivability for a little bit of damage is nuanced enough that maybe only a pro would make that choice, but it's not completely a nonstarter IMO.
For instance, exactly which other hero would have been better for extra damage in c9's comp? Well, they clearly needed a little extra damage--- but tass's shields were a vital part of the comp's goal.
Tassadar was chosen for his mobility and the ability to allow disengagements. The shielding is a bonus. The extra damage from Static Charge is insignificant,
But still clearly more desirable to c9 than any of the other options at level 7 in that situation.
You're presuming that C9's reasoning for taking that talent was sound. Mathematically, it's a very bad talent. And it's even worse when considering that Force Wall was taken over Archon.
Archon doesn't make much of a difference IMO. The only thing archon lets you do is trigger all the charges with one attack instead of 3 or so--- but if you only hit 3 members of the enemy team, it won't take much to trigger them anyway. Archon makes a huge difference when clearling minion waves--- but comon, we're talking about utility in team fights here with respect to archon.
Mathematically you are choosing nominal damage over:
* Mule, which is arguably not useful in the pro scene * Khala's embrace, which doesn't actually offer extra stats--- it just offers the opportunity to convert mana at a bad ratio to shields in between fights (but you are still burning mana for those shields. In this game tass took overload I think, so mana is more precious to this tassadar) * Deep shift-- only matters if you actually need the extra 1.5 seconds to get out. Otherwise it's an extra 1.5 seconds of not being able to do things and is actively bad.
Compared to these options I can see static charge being useful in certain situations.
On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote: I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection.
Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him.
I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero.
I don't think it is quite as simple as that: tassadar does many unique things not related to his 7 talent choice at all. The decision to sacrifice a little bit of survivability for a little bit of damage is nuanced enough that maybe only a pro would make that choice, but it's not completely a nonstarter IMO.
For instance, exactly which other hero would have been better for extra damage in c9's comp? Well, they clearly needed a little extra damage--- but tass's shields were a vital part of the comp's goal.
Tassadar was chosen for his mobility and the ability to allow disengagements. The shielding is a bonus. The extra damage from Static Charge is insignificant,
But still clearly more desirable to c9 than any of the other options at level 7 in that situation.
You're presuming that C9's reasoning for taking that talent was sound. Mathematically, it's a very bad talent. And it's even worse when considering that Force Wall was taken over Archon.
Archon doesn't make much of a difference IMO. The only thing archons let you do is trigger all the charges with one attack instead of 3--- but if you only hit 3 members of the enemy team, it won't take much to trigger them anyway.
Mathematically you are choosing nominal damage over:
* Mule, which is arguably not useful in the pro scene * Khala's embrace, which doesn't actually offer extra stats--- it just offers some weak shields you can build up in between fights (but you are still burning mana for those shields. In this game tass took overload I think, so mana is more precious to this tassadar) * Deep shift-- only matters if you actually need the extra 1.5 seconds to get out. Otherwise it's an extra 1.5 seconds of not being able to do things and is actively bad.
Compared to these options I can see static charge being useful in certain situations.
MULE most certainly is not useless. And while it is not at its best on a map like Cursed Hollow, it still would have had utility given C9's asymmetric attrition strategy.
For influencing the outcomes of teamfights, Khala's Embrace is just clearly better than Static Charge when Archon isn't taken. It's not even close.
In that game where the plan was keep Murky up, who died all the time anyways, Khala's Embrace wouldn't have done much.
I agree MULE would have fit their strat to stall out the game while Abathur does his business. However, given their weird comp, they probably felt like damage was at a premium so were taking Static Charge to eek out every last drop.
On November 10 2015 02:55 Wuster wrote: In that game where the plan was keep Murky up, who died all the time anyways, Khala's Embrace wouldn't have done much.
I agree MULE would have fit their strat to stall out the game while Abathur does his business. However, given their weird comp, they probably felt like damage was at a premium so were taking Static Charge to eek out every last drop.
I would have to watch the replay, but the only building left partially damaged by DK that I remember was one of C9's keeps, and that building was never destroyed anyway. Generally pros seem to attack once they are sure they can secure the destruction of the building.
On November 10 2015 02:55 Wuster wrote: In that game where the plan was keep Murky up, who died all the time anyways, Khala's Embrace wouldn't have done much.
I agree MULE would have fit their strat to stall out the game while Abathur does his business. However, given their weird comp, they probably felt like damage was at a premium so were taking Static Charge to eek out every last drop.
Leeching Plasma/Khala's Embrace would have excellent for that composition, but they made it work a different way. Not sure if I liked the Psi-Infusion/Static Charge combo, but I can see why that would be considered valid with that particular composition.
In more standard compositions, Tassadar is usually taken in lieu of a second warrior and synergizes well with melee assassins. When you take Deep Shift (or even the Leeching Plasma/Khala's Embrace combo), you gain a lot of autonomy once the level 13/16 talents roll in. After that point, Tassadar can stand way away from the rest of the team to get vision, prevent flanks, soak up damage, or distract opponents from objectives. He should be one of the first ones heading into objectives and one of the last people leaving fights (and peeling for allies). For these reasons, I kind of like to refer to him as a late game tank, even though most people don't want to admit it.
The way that Dunktrain and Kaeyoh in particular played him was way too safe and didn't make full use of his ability to roam around by himself or soak up tons of damage for free.
You know, ultimately that game was something we haven't seen a lot of. Murky is very rare in competitive and Abathur backdoor strats were considered outdated. It feels pretty presumptuous to be saying of they made this mistake or that mistake with their talent selection. I think there's a very good chance they practiced those scenarios before Blizzcon and this is what they ended up on.
Besides, Dunktrain wasn't on Tassadar that game (he was Brightwing), they put K1Pro on him.
Besides, talking more about that comp it didn't work flawlessly anyways. Leoric died a ton and Octograb secured very, very few kills. But the comp seemed good at punishing over-extensions with how fast Murky (and by extension Abathur and Brightwing) could jump in to finish off a closely fought team fight (like at bottom keep when they came back in to clean up DK). In hindsight Leoric fit that idea very well too.
On November 10 2015 03:51 Wuster wrote: In hindsight Leoric fit that idea very well too.
Yeah, this was the central idea of the comp: every single character could re-enter fights immediately on spawning after death, and most of the characters were either hard to kill(tass/abathur) or hard to kill and keep out for long(leo/murk)
On November 10 2015 03:51 Wuster wrote: You know, ultimately that game was something we haven't seen a lot of. Murky is very rare in competitive and Abathur backdoor strats were considered outdated. It feels pretty presumptuous to be saying of they made this mistake or that mistake with their talent selection. I think there's a very good chance they practiced those scenarios before Blizzcon and this is what they ended up on.
Besides, Dunktrain wasn't on Tassadar that game (he was Brightwing), they put K1Pro on him.
Please stop hearing only what you want to hear.
On November 10 2015 03:28 SC2John wrote: Leeching Plasma/Khala's Embrace would have excellent for that composition, but they made it work a different way. Not sure if I liked the Psi-Infusion/Static Charge combo, but I can see why that would be considered valid with that particular composition.
I agree with the talent selection, but I think there's a possibility there's a better alternative. MVP Black went full auto Zeratul with Shadow Assault in the finals of the OGN Super League...does a sample size of 1 prove it's legitimacy as an optimized strategy?
And DunkTrain DID play Tassadar on Day 1 against Dignitas (Game 1 on Cursed Hollow). Please.
On November 10 2015 04:56 SC2John wrote: I agree with the talent selection, but I think there's a possibility there's a better alternative. MVP Black went full auto Zeratul with Shadow Assault in the finals of the OGN Super League...does a sample size of 1 prove it's legitimacy as an optimized strategy? .
To change topics completely....
I've been thinking about this since we spoke about it the other night. That game featured Tyreal, Illidan, Rehgar, Tassadar, and abathur on the opposing team. The #1 question when using void prism is "what do I want to accomplish with this thing?". In a big team fight you typically you want to void prism the dps of the enemy team so that your team can focus down one or two characters that are caught out of it. alternatively you can VP to set up a big wombo, or just use it as a very expensive escape/disengage mechanism.
However, with that Tyreal/Illi/Rehgar/Tassadar setup, who is he going to VP? Rehgar and Tassadar? If he VPs illidan or tyreal, there is a really good chance he's going to VP his own team. Maybe in some situations where the VPs are likely to get scrappy or you just won't be able to land a good one shadow assault is the way to go?
Or maybe I don't know anything about Zeratul. That's a definitely probability regardless of whether I'm right or not But I have been thinking about this topic a lot since I have been playing Sylvanas a lot lately--- she has a similar thought process in terms of asking yourself, "How do I want to use my wailing arrow against this enemy comp?". Wailing arrow has a very wide spectrum of usefulness against different comps, and I suspect that VP might have some limited usefulness against very specific comps.
On November 10 2015 04:56 SC2John wrote: I agree with the talent selection, but I think there's a possibility there's a better alternative. MVP Black went full auto Zeratul with Shadow Assault in the finals of the OGN Super League...does a sample size of 1 prove it's legitimacy as an optimized strategy? .
To change topics completely....
I've been thinking about this since we spoke about it the other night. That game featured Tyreal, Illidan, Rehgar, Tassadar, and abathur on the opposing team. The #1 question when using void prism is "what do I want to accomplish with this thing?". In a big team fight you typically you want to void prism the dps of the enemy team so that your team can focus down one or two characters that are caught out of it. alternatively you can VP to set up a big wombo, or just use it as a very expensive escape/disengage mechanism.
However, with that Tyreal/Illi/Rehgar/Tassadar setup, who is he going to VP? Rehgar and Tassadar? If he VPs illidan or tyreal, there is a really good chance he's going to VP his own team. Maybe in some situations where the VPs are likely to get scrappy or you just won't be able to land a good one shadow assault is the way to go?
Or maybe I don't know anything about Zeratul. That's a definitely probability regardless of whether I'm right or not But I have been thinking about this topic a lot since I have been playing Sylvanas a lot lately--- she has a similar thought process in terms of asking yourself, "How do I want to use my wailing arrow against this enemy comp?". Wailing arrow has a very wide spectrum of usefulness against different comps, and I suspect that VP might have some limited usefulness against very specific comps.
I don't think either heroic is particularly comp-dependent. 95% of the time, Wailing Arrow is an initiation tool. The remaining 5% you'll want to use it as an emergency interrupt. VP, on the other hand, is something that you generally don't want to use as an initiation tool unless you 1) are incredibly good at trapping 3-5 enemies at a time, and 2) your team is a wombo comp. The better move in almost all circumstances is to use it mid-fight to trap the enemy healer and whoever else you can get, giving your team 5 seconds to kill 1-2 enemies.
How important do you guys think stuns are? On one side I think they can make or break the game and I often try to get atleast Muradin or Uther in the team composition to get stuns in, hopefully both. In many games where we had double or even triple stuns the engagements can be very one sided. It can be very satisfying to get that second or third stun in onto an enemy hero and seal their fate.
Then again, many games where I've played heroes such as Sylvanas, Valla, Zagara, Tyrael or even Artanis had limited stuns be still focused down heroes without much issue. I suppose there is something to be sad for plain old raw damage.
Would a stun comp (say Muradin, Uther, Tyrande, Kael'Thas and Jaina for dmg) beat a similarly strong composition but with less stuns but maybe higher damage?
On November 10 2015 05:16 xDaunt wrote: The remaining 5% you'll want to use it as an emergency interrupt. VP, on the other hand, is something that you generally don't want to use as an initiation tool unless you 1) are incredibly good at trapping 3-5 enemies at a time, and 2) your team is a wombo comp. The better move in almost all circumstances is to use it mid-fight to trap the enemy healer and whoever else you can get, giving your team 5 seconds to kill 1-2 enemies.
I've been using VP as an initiation tool to trap 1-3 enemies so my team can finish off the other two quickly. That's why I was comparing the two abilities in the first place. Almost all my team fights are going like this:
1) Both teams dancing around trying to get into a position where the engage is easy. 2) I see a division in the enemy team where I can isolate the dps from the rest of the team 3) I VP the dps, the rest of the team dies quickly or gets so beat up that they can't peel for the dps during the fight after the VP.
On November 10 2015 03:51 Wuster wrote: You know, ultimately that game was something we haven't seen a lot of. Murky is very rare in competitive and Abathur backdoor strats were considered outdated. It feels pretty presumptuous to be saying of they made this mistake or that mistake with their talent selection. I think there's a very good chance they practiced those scenarios before Blizzcon and this is what they ended up on.
Besides, Dunktrain wasn't on Tassadar that game (he was Brightwing), they put K1Pro on him.
On November 10 2015 03:28 SC2John wrote: Leeching Plasma/Khala's Embrace would have excellent for that composition, but they made it work a different way. Not sure if I liked the Psi-Infusion/Static Charge combo, but I can see why that would be considered valid with that particular composition.
I agree with the talent selection, but I think there's a possibility there's a better alternative. MVP Black went full auto Zeratul with Shadow Assault in the finals of the OGN Super League...does a sample size of 1 prove it's legitimacy as an optimized strategy?
And DunkTrain DID play Tassadar on Day 1 against Dignitas (Game 1 on Cursed Hollow). Please.
I was just thinking a little more about how much we've been using a one-off game to base this argument on. Let me rephrase what I meant:
We can't use that game as much proof of talent choices in general because it's the only time we've seen that comp and who knows if it would work again even with refinements. I'm not convinced it would to be honest, so it seems pointless to argue for or against Static Charge based on a one-off strat.
On November 10 2015 05:16 Thezzy wrote: How important do you guys think stuns are? On one side I think they can make or break the game and I often try to get atleast Muradin or Uther in the team composition to get stuns in, hopefully both. In many games where we had double or even triple stuns the engagements can be very one sided. It can be very satisfying to get that second or third stun in onto an enemy hero and seal their fate.
Then again, many games where I've played heroes such as Sylvanas, Valla, Zagara, Tyrael or even Artanis had limited stuns be still focused down heroes without much issue. I suppose there is something to be sad for plain old raw damage.
Would a stun comp (say Muradin, Uther, Tyrande, Kael'Thas and Jaina for dmg) beat a similarly strong composition but with less stuns but maybe higher damage?
It depends on the comp you are against. If you are dealing with a comp that has a lot of channels - ETC, Lili, Nazeebo, Sonya - stuns are incredibly effective at nullifying hugely important parts of those heroes' kits. If you stun a Nazeebo every time he uses Ravenous Spirit, for example, you are effectively rendering his heroic ability, something that can do a huge amount of damage, null and void.
That, and a common way of getting a lead in games these days involves rotating in a group to pick off heroes in lane and achieve a period of free xp soak and push in that lane. Stuns prevent heroes from escaping, they stick them in one place to allow for follow up abilities, and they can cancel counter damage. Generally speaking, stuns are considered the most important form of CC right now.
On November 10 2015 03:51 Wuster wrote: You know, ultimately that game was something we haven't seen a lot of. Murky is very rare in competitive and Abathur backdoor strats were considered outdated. It feels pretty presumptuous to be saying of they made this mistake or that mistake with their talent selection. I think there's a very good chance they practiced those scenarios before Blizzcon and this is what they ended up on.
Besides, Dunktrain wasn't on Tassadar that game (he was Brightwing), they put K1Pro on him.
Please stop hearing only what you want to hear.
On November 10 2015 03:28 SC2John wrote: Leeching Plasma/Khala's Embrace would have excellent for that composition, but they made it work a different way. Not sure if I liked the Psi-Infusion/Static Charge combo, but I can see why that would be considered valid with that particular composition.
I agree with the talent selection, but I think there's a possibility there's a better alternative. MVP Black went full auto Zeratul with Shadow Assault in the finals of the OGN Super League...does a sample size of 1 prove it's legitimacy as an optimized strategy?
And DunkTrain DID play Tassadar on Day 1 against Dignitas (Game 1 on Cursed Hollow). Please.
I was just thinking a little more about how much we've been using a one-off game to base this argument on. Let me rephrase what I meant:
We can't use that game as much proof of talent choices in general because it's the only time we've seen that comp and who knows if it would work again even with refinements. I'm not convinced it would to be honest, so it seems pointless to argue for or against Static Charge based on a one-off strat.
THATS EXACTLY MY POINT. I'm basing my argument off of the other ~6 games played without Static Charge. It's that simple.
On November 10 2015 03:51 Wuster wrote: You know, ultimately that game was something we haven't seen a lot of. Murky is very rare in competitive and Abathur backdoor strats were considered outdated. It feels pretty presumptuous to be saying of they made this mistake or that mistake with their talent selection. I think there's a very good chance they practiced those scenarios before Blizzcon and this is what they ended up on.
Besides, Dunktrain wasn't on Tassadar that game (he was Brightwing), they put K1Pro on him.
Please stop hearing only what you want to hear.
On November 10 2015 03:28 SC2John wrote: Leeching Plasma/Khala's Embrace would have excellent for that composition, but they made it work a different way. Not sure if I liked the Psi-Infusion/Static Charge combo, but I can see why that would be considered valid with that particular composition.
I agree with the talent selection, but I think there's a possibility there's a better alternative. MVP Black went full auto Zeratul with Shadow Assault in the finals of the OGN Super League...does a sample size of 1 prove it's legitimacy as an optimized strategy?
And DunkTrain DID play Tassadar on Day 1 against Dignitas (Game 1 on Cursed Hollow). Please.
I was just thinking a little more about how much we've been using a one-off game to base this argument on. Let me rephrase what I meant:
We can't use that game as much proof of talent choices in general because it's the only time we've seen that comp and who knows if it would work again even with refinements. I'm not convinced it would to be honest, so it seems pointless to argue for or against Static Charge based on a one-off strat.
To be fair. C9 has apparently had a lot of scrim success with it. I even remember an NA open where tempo storm banned out murky and the commentators assumed it was just BM but now I think that they were worried about it. I'm not saying it's a new meta, but I think it probably has more substantial merit than most people, myself included originally gave it credit for.
A new PTR patch has been uploaded to the servers. It contains all Cho'Gall data, information on new bundles and possible new skins, and more! New Bundles, Skins and Year Long Stimpack
Below is a list of new bundles, with potential release dates, and new skins. There are also strings on the client that reference a 360 day stimpack! New Skins
Space Leoric Great-father Winter Stitches Winter Plum Sylvanas Corruptor Cho'Gall
New Mount
Felstalker
360-Day Stimpack - Release Date: 11.17.2015
Second Chance Bundle - 11.17.2015
Hero - Jaina Skin - Winter Veil Jaina Hero - Rehgar Skin - Great-father Winter Rehgar Mount - ReignDeer Mount - Nazeebra Mount - Lunar Tiger Mount - Magic Carpet
Speaking of progamer Tassadars, adrd died from full health at their gate despite having 7 & 13 Dimensional Shift talents and Morales standing right next to him. Unstable Poison from like five minions killed him in one second, who needs Kaelthas? First game of the final btw.
Also stun is an easy way to kill heroes if your team is coordinated. Chain stun should definitely be nerfed at some point to have diminishing values for each consecutive stun. They did it in Diablo 3 (several times) and fucked up a lot of builds with the decision, I don't see why they can't do it in HotS. I don't really mind the easy kills that comes with stun, but being stunned for 3-4 seconds when you have your immunity/escape ulti or bolt up and frantically spam them but are unable to do anything is simply not fun. It's kind of like playing vs Freeze Mage in Hearthstone and just staring at the screen for a while then clicking the end turn button.
I wouldn't be surprised if they do rebalance stuns at some point. Chain CC was nerfed in World of Warcraft pvp. That or they add a get out of stun default ability or talent option for everyone on a semi-long cool down for everyone like WoW pvp trinkets.
Yeah, it'd be nice if there was an ability lots of characters had which drastically reduced(maybe ~50%) the duration of silences, stuns, slows, and roots. It could be at the level 13 talent level, competing with spell shield.
On November 11 2015 03:15 karazax wrote: Relentless is an option for six heroes out of 43, so wouldn't say that's really a lot of characters.
Eight heroes at least-- lili and raynor have upgraded versions of it.
18% of the character base is a lot, I would say. Not to mention cleanse being on almost every solo support in the game. (plus all the unstoppable effects--- johanna doesn't have relentless, but would she even need it?)
On November 11 2015 02:24 karazax wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if they do rebalance stuns at some point. Chain CC was nerfed in World of Warcraft pvp. That or they add a get out of stun default ability or talent option for everyone on a semi-long cool down for everyone like WoW pvp trinkets.
Same, I'm really surprised it hasn't happened yet. But then again they nerfed Cleanse and removed a bunch of unstoppable effects (rip Diablo), so maybe they like chain stuns?
On November 11 2015 03:19 MotherFox wrote: Not to mention cleanse being on almost every solo support in the game.
But never picked. Also it requires a support which is rare to get in QM. Oh wait it's Morales week, go ahead and play some games and tell me how many of them that picks Cleanse. Because in my close to 2000 games I've pretty much never seen anyone pick it, doesn't matter that you tell them that it's fucking awesome vs Octo-Grab, supports play the way they want, like I've said earlier about Abathur. Hell I've even had two supports on my team vs Murky and none of them picked Cleanse. Although I can understand why people don't like picking it, it's not exactly easy to use except on obvious stuns like Octo-Grab and The Butcher's charge etc.
On November 11 2015 03:19 MotherFox wrote: Not to mention cleanse being on almost every solo support in the game.
But never picked. Also it requires a support which is rare to get in QM. Oh wait it's Morales week, go ahead and play some games and tell me how many of them that picks Cleanse. Because in my close to 2000 games I've pretty much never seen anyone pick it, doesn't matter that you tell them that it's fucking awesome vs Octo-Grab, supports play the way they want, like I've said earlier about Abathur. Hell I've even had two supports on my team vs Murky and none of them picked Cleanse. Although I can understand why people don't like picking it, it's not exactly easy to use except on obvious stuns like Octo-Grab and The Butcher's charge etc.
If the enemy team has strong chain-stun potential and your healer doesn't opt for cleanse I can't really help you. This isn't a matter of chain stun being too powerful: it's your healer not thinking about talent choices. I personally don't think it's difficult to use at all--- I frequently use it to counter roots as well as stuns.
On November 11 2015 03:15 karazax wrote: Relentless is an option for six heroes out of 43, so wouldn't say that's really a lot of characters.
Eight heroes at least-- lili and raynor have upgraded versions of it.
18% of the character base is a lot, I would say. Not to mention cleanse being on almost every solo support in the game. (plus all the unstoppable effects--- johanna doesn't have relentless, but would she even need it?)
I was including Raynor in the 6, but not LiLi. Unless I missed someone, the heroes who have relentless are:
Arthas, Chen, Kharazim, Stitches and Tychus. Then LiLi has shake it off at lvl 7 and Raynor has Relentless Leader at 13. Currently only Arthas, Kharazim and Raynor see regular play at the pro level out of those. LiLi and Chen are basically unplayable at the pro level against CC heavy teams even with their anti-stun talents. Your reply seemed to imply that anti-stun talents for all heroes was already an option at 13, when clearly it's not for the majority.
Cleanse was a great counter pre-nerf. It's still an option, but now it's much less effective. Certainly support players not picking cleanse is foolish against a CC heavy team, and cleanse is a much better suggestion as a counter than pointing out relentless is there for 7 heroes.
Anyway, I'm not saying that chain CC absolutely needs to be nerfed right now, but it would not surprise me if it was reduced in the future based on Blizzard's history with chain CC in World of Warcraft pvp.
EDIT: Missed Azmodan as another who has relentless, though I don't know that he would ever pick it.
On November 11 2015 05:05 Ej_ wrote: Chen's actually played sometimes. I think Dignitas and DK draft him.
And they both lost with him. He is basically only a safe pick at the pro level against a team with few to no stuns, in which case you probably don't need relentless anyway.
G2 used to use Chen to counter Zagara on Dragon Shire. It worked okay. Chen would just follow Zagara to lane and Zagara couldn't even break his shields so it was an easy stalemate, while more offensive heroes for G2 could take control of the other lanes.
I don't think any of the heroes who have relentless could be considered a strong counter pick against a CC heavy team. In fact most of them are terrible choices against CC heavy teams. I can see Blizzard adding Relentless as an additional talent choice for every hero if they deem Chain CC to be too strong in the future though. At 13, most heroes would probably still not pick it in most matches.
On November 11 2015 03:15 karazax wrote: Relentless is an option for six heroes out of 43, so wouldn't say that's really a lot of characters.
Eight heroes at least-- lili and raynor have upgraded versions of it.
18% of the character base is a lot, I would say. Not to mention cleanse being on almost every solo support in the game. (plus all the unstoppable effects--- johanna doesn't have relentless, but would she even need it?)
I was including Raynor in the 6, but not LiLi. Unless I missed someone, the heroes who have relentless are:
Arthas, Chen, Kharazim, Stitches and Tychus. Then LiLi has shake it off at lvl 7 and Raynor has Relentless Leader at 13. Currently only Arthas, Kharazim and Raynor see regular play at the pro level out of those. LiLi and Chen are basically unplayable at the pro level against CC heavy teams even with their anti-stun talents. Your reply seemed to imply that anti-stun talents for all heroes was already an option at 13, when clearly it's not for the majority.
Cleanse was a great counter pre-nerf. It's still an option, but now it's much less effective. Certainly support players not picking cleanse is foolish against a CC heavy team, and cleanse is a much better suggestion as a counter than pointing out relentless is there for 7 heroes.
Anyway, I'm not saying that chain CC absolutely needs to be nerfed right now, but it would not surprise me if it was reduced in the future based on Blizzard's history with chain CC in World of Warcraft pvp.
EDIT: Missed Azmodan as another who has relentless, though I don't know that he would ever pick it.
And Sonya! ^^ (WotB)
On November 11 2015 05:44 karazax wrote: I don't think any of the heroes who have relentless could be considered a strong counter pick against a CC heavy team. In fact most of them are terrible choices against CC heavy teams. I can see Blizzard adding Relentless as an additional talent choice for every hero if they deem Chain CC to be too strong in the future though. At 13, most heroes would probably still not pick it in most matches.
In any case, I wouldn't consider heroes with Relentless a "counter" to CC heavy compositions by any means. Thinking of it those terms just doesn't make a lot of sense. The big trend we're seeing are ways to "overshield" people from harm or break up fights with disruptive Heroics. In terms of overshielding, we're seeing a lot of Tassadar being worked into double support compositions as well as heroes like Kharazim being prioritized and optimized simply for insane healing numbers. Pro players will take Echo of Heaven 100% of the time over Cleanse, even if the other team is very CC heavy because the increase in healing is more effective (also, he happens to have Relentless, which is a nice perk). Disruptive abilities like Void Prison, Force Wall, Entomb, Holy Ground, and even stuff like Shadowstalk and Lightning Breath all help to break up team fights a bit or dissuade opponents from clumping up and riding the stun train to a win.
I'd rather not see a nerf to stuns, especially some kind of blanket nerf, but I understand that chain stuns are very unforgiving and can completely shut people down who are out position -- but positioning is all about skill in the first place. All in all, I think the balance is currently in a really nice place right now, and I'm looking forward to seeing how the new heroes interact with the meta.
My point is there is lots of anti-cc baked into the game in the form of different types of cleanses, cc reduction, and unstoppable frames.(I suppose there is also stasis and invulnerability) Pointing out that some forms of cc reduction are not useful would be like claiming hard cc isn't powerful because ministuns on some characters are not overly out of control. The aggregate picture, though, is that there are many ways to deal with hard cc.
There's also the Metamorphosis and Avatar upgrades but yeah they're at 20. Well, I'm just saying that the chain stuns might be a bigger issue in the future when there are more heroes with stun and longer durations. Like isn't Avatar already able to completely stun lock someone since Stim Drone appeared? Anyway it also has to do with the shitty matchmaking which I hope they'll improve soon because things like having to play Illidan without a tank/support vs 4 stunners are driving me nuts. That happened twice to me yesterday, so I decided to go tank cause hey people mostly play assassins. Guess what, got a full team of non-assassins that could do no damage at all, so the next game I switched to assassin and got a team with four assassins and one weak specialist. Blizzard plz.
The only thing that bugs me in QM is when they give me strange comps vs relatively normal comps. I don't mind strange vs strange, but I do want that sense of fairness.
I find strange beats normal if all 5 are aware when the strange comp is stronger. But if you have 4 tanks and Tassadar and 3 of the tanks go for tank talents, then of course the other side will win. But if Tassadar tells me he can defend 2 lanes and that we should go ham. Then the enemy is screwed.
In terms of stuns ... there are heroes that do well against CC and there are supports that do well againt CC. If you of course don't pick those heroes against 4+ stuns, then you will have to play really good to avoid that. I mean Lili turns into a Goddess if the enemy team has to rely on stun chains to kill someone.
Started to playing Raynor the other day as he almost seems first pick material nowadays in HL.
Wow he is strong in HL. I feel he is a hero who can really shine in SoloQ. Was playing Blackhearts Bay, all of my teammates pusing botlane, i was soaking Mid and Top, getting XP and stacking Marksman. The enemy team all got to bot to defend their fort, leaving me alone. This is when i made the critical call that maybe decided this game. i stayed top, continuing to soak both lanes. And my team didn't die We got a huge lead, snowballing out of control and i had 46 stacks by lvl 16, just melting everyone while i still had 2 x 1,5 sec stun every 6-9ish seconds! How OP is that! (1)marksmann (4)focused (7) clinic (10) raiders (13) double barrel (16) bullseye
TLDR; Raynor Gooood!! Talent diversity allows for 2-3ish different builds, which is nice. Love that guy, and so relaxed play unlike someone like Uther ^^
EDIT: Checking Hotslogs, his winrate is at 70% in all leagues, even masters, which is crazy. My personal winrate is at 75% with him. Also, why is nobody ever picking clinic on 7? 1,5sec CD reduction for killing stuff is awesome! Or did i get sth wrong here?
On November 11 2015 09:35 FeyFey wrote: I find strange beats normal if all 5 are aware when the strange comp is stronger. But if you have 4 tanks and Tassadar and 3 of the tanks go for tank talents, then of course the other side will win. But if Tassadar tells me he can defend 2 lanes and that we should go ham. Then the enemy is screwed.
Yea, I got a 3 warrior 2 support (ETC, Muradin, Sonya, Uther and Medic IIRC) QM team the other day. We were up against 3 assassin + warrior + support. Everyone of us built for dmg and CC, except medic who went full healbot, and we utterly destroyed them on Battle Field of Eternity, because they couldn't hurt us at all and they got pulled apart in team fights. I believe the game was over by lvl 16-17 with us having a 3 lvl lead.
On November 11 2015 23:07 Harris1st wrote: Started to playing Raynor the other day as he almost seems first pick material nowadays in HL.
Wow he is strong in HL. I feel he is a hero who can really shine in SoloQ. Was playing Blackhearts Bay, all of my teammates pusing botlane, i was soaking Mid and Top, getting XP and stacking Marksman. The enemy team all got to bot to defend their fort, leaving me alone. This is when i made the critical call that maybe decided this game. i stayed top, continuing to soak both lanes. And my team didn't die We got a huge lead, snowballing out of control and i had 46 stacks by lvl 16, just melting everyone while i still had 2 x 1,5 sec stun every 6-9ish seconds! How OP is that! (1)marksmann (4)focused (7) clinic (10) raiders (13) double barrel (16) bullseye
TLDR; Raynor Gooood!! Talent diversity allows for 2-3ish different builds, which is nice. Love that guy, and so relaxed play unlike someone like Uther ^^
EDIT: Checking Hotslogs, his winrate is at 70% in all leagues, even masters, which is crazy. My personal winrate is at 75% with him. Also, why is nobody ever picking clinic on 7? 1,5sec CD reduction for killing stuff is awesome! Or did i get sth wrong here?
Um, hotslogs tells me his winrate is more like 55%? His popularity is near 70%, though.
awww shot! I guess i'am simply bad at reading hotslog. Was looking at his popular talent builds with 70% winrate. Ofc there are other builds.... my bad :/
On November 12 2015 01:25 Harris1st wrote: awww shot! I guess i'am simply bad at reading hotslog. Was looking at his popular talent builds with 70% winrate. Ofc there are other builds.... my bad :/
Still...I agree that he's like the easiest dude in the world to use and scoop up kills. I'm pretty sure Valiver is still 100% on him from the games we've played the past two weeks....
I've been playing a lot of Rexxar over the last few days, which is long overdue since I meant to try him out again after the "Misha Fixate!" command was added. I think he's very strong in the right setup--- and maybe most importantly, he's one of the few heroes I can think of that just flat out wins against Zagara early game 1v1 in a lane. And Rexxar actually scales really well against zagara too:
* At level 4, the slowing spirit swoop talent means zagara has to be extra wary of ganks * At level 7, the wave clear spirit swoop talent means rexxar out-pushes Zagara. Also, since this skill is bugged and still works vs all non-heroic enemies it is really good in a wide variety of ways. * At level 13, the burning rage skill means zagara can not keep creep down
I think this may be my go-to whenever I'm playing against a zag now. The only slightly awkward moment is when Rexxar gets mawed but misha doesn't. You lose control of her and she just kind of sits there waiting for the maw to finish.
Of course, if misha gets mawed it feels a lot like a wasted maw. I'm not sure why, since Rexxar is close to useless without misha--- I guess just because misha dying is no big deal due to her reduced death timer.
Another caveat on him is Misha Fixate is a little bugged still. When you issue multiple fixate commands in a row by spamming your 1 key, misha sometimes just derps out and you can't issue fixate commands anymore. To fix this, you have to recognize it's happened and then just tap your D key twice to leash her and unleash her. I guess if you want absolute confidence she'll do her commands you could just double tap D before each reassignment of fixate, which doesn't seem overly onerous to me.
Also, people seem to say that stealth is a counter to rexxar but I simply haven't found that to be true. Whenever I see blur it's very easy to send misha after it on a kill mission. Rexxar has many ways to decloak characters(including lighting misha on fire with that level 13 talent), so I think cloaked characters have to really be on edge when they are around him. Heavy dive teams remain a problem, but if you are heavily diving rexxar and not DPS of some kind I think there is some kind of problem with the match outside of rexxar being chosen.
Well if you see a blur and miss the charge you're going to lose like 50% health vs Zeratul/Nova. And Nova can outrange Misha so there's no threat of dying at least early-mid game. But I think a bigger counter to Rexxar is Illidan.
And the reason no one uses Puttin' On a Clinic with Raynor is that it has no impact on team fights, it's simply a laning talent and a bad one at that since getting to use Q or W more often when laning is pointless. I guess it's kinda fun with Raynor's Raiders but I don't feel like that's an ulti you want to spam without committing to a fight anyway. If you could manually activate Adrenaline Rush it could have been an interesting talent but you can't since the talents are on the same level.
mostly small changes, but they seem significant to me since they affect many characters I play
jaina nerfed slightly falstad's level 1 reworked gathering power buffed zeratul....changed? not sure if this is buff or nerf kharazim's mana and damage level 1s are buffed leoric nerfed sonya bug fix (which is a buff) uther nerfed
Oh, and the scaling change, which is a major change.
On November 12 2015 03:53 Freezard wrote: Well if you see a blur and miss the charge you're going to lose like 50% health vs Zeratul/Nova. And Nova can outrange Misha so there's no threat of dying at least early-mid game. But I think a bigger counter to Rexxar is Illidan.
I don't understand how you can miss the charge. Misha's charge is like twice the width of either character's hitbox.
I have yet to fight against an illidan with rexxar, but I feel like misha's stun and imposing presence will really mess him up.
On November 12 2015 04:37 Ej_ wrote: I wonder how much they'd need to buff Kharazim level 1 talents to actually have people pick not the healing one lol
Personally I think they need to make them actual support talents instead of self-buff talents. If I have to decide between replenishing my party's mana and getting some more healing, that might be a difficult choice (depending on the numbers)
Uhm so there's this line in the patch notes under design and gameplay -
Attack Speed Slows
Attack speed slows now apply only to Heroes and Summons.
Do Keeps no longer slow the attack speed of Dragon Knights for example, or do they count as a Hero now? It's such a vague change that it might just be reffering to like Reverberation and other Hero applied slows.
On November 12 2015 04:47 xDaunt wrote: The damage buff to Kharazim's iron fists is useless. He just isn't a heavy-hitting auto-attacker. They'd have to buff it to like 200% to matter.
Intriguingly even without this trait the monk's auto attacks do more dps than an Illidan without meta. I think bliz is trying to paint the monk as a damage over time melee attacker, but without illidan's ability to take damage or raw chase factor the monk can't really fill the role satisfactorily.
If the damage got too high, it would turn into sustained burst damage, which would also be bad from a balancing perspective for obvious reasons.
I probably means that too. Currently talents like Reverberation on Muradin will reduce attack speed on towers and forts. Though DK and terrors have reduced effects from most CC, so they might also be immune now to attack speed slows.
DK and terror count as heroes so I suppose it's only minions/mercs and golems/immortals/punishers etc. Not really any big change. Imo the new Zeratul talent is a buff since you're always focusing the same hero anyway. But I guess it indirectly nerfs the Wormhole talent so they want him to be less of a hit and run hero.
The new zeratul talent is a nerf to his current play style for sure. He will need to be played as more of a mobile bruiser now though with lots of survivability talents to have a role in a normal team.
On November 12 2015 06:54 Valiver wrote: The new zeratul talent is a nerf to his current play style for sure. He will need to be played as more of a mobile bruiser now though with lots of survivability talents to have a role in a normal team.
That's basically how I've been playing him. Regen master, vampiric strike, follow through, VP, assassin's blade, stoneskin, and nexus blades. It works well enough, in my opinion. VP still wins fights. And Zeratul can still own the early game and get his team a lead.
On November 12 2015 04:37 Ej_ wrote: I wonder how much they'd need to buff Kharazim level 1 talents to actually have people pick not the healing one lol
Personally I think they need to make them actual support talents instead of self-buff talents. If I have to decide between replenishing my party's mana and getting some more healing, that might be a difficult choice (depending on the numbers)
Imo iron fists is fine, he can be an off healer with sustained dps (if its balanced). But insight is just weird, he is not mana hungry without it. He even got that lvl 20 for mana, also weird.
Pretty small changes generally (not including the scaling changes). Shame there was nothing for Anub'arak, I think he could do with a little bit of an hp buff to bring him more in line. Was also expecting some other changes to older heroes.
I wonder if the change to Deep Chill will make Lingering Chill better now? Or maybe pursuit will be taken more often...
Uther nerf is pretty big though, I can see him dropping off a fair bit. Monk may become the more common pick now, though Uther's utility will still be great.
On November 12 2015 07:45 Larkin wrote: Pretty small changes generally (not including the scaling changes). Shame there was nothing for Anub'arak, I think he could do with a little bit of an hp buff to bring him more in line. Was also expecting some other changes to older heroes.
I wonder if the change to Deep Chill will make Lingering Chill better now? Or maybe pursuit will be taken more often...
Uther nerf is pretty big though, I can see him dropping off a fair bit. Monk may become the more common pick now, though Uther's utility will still be great.
As much as it pains me to say it, I think Lingering Chill is going to be the standard now.
On November 12 2015 07:45 Larkin wrote: Pretty small changes generally (not including the scaling changes). Shame there was nothing for Anub'arak, I think he could do with a little bit of an hp buff to bring him more in line. Was also expecting some other changes to older heroes.
I wonder if the change to Deep Chill will make Lingering Chill better now? Or maybe pursuit will be taken more often...
Uther nerf is pretty big though, I can see him dropping off a fair bit. Monk may become the more common pick now, though Uther's utility will still be great.
I don't think that Anub'arak needs any buffs to be honest. He is quite good diving bruiser that has great talent diversity. I am seeing Korean and China scene picking him all the time and doing very well with him.
On November 12 2015 07:45 Larkin wrote: Pretty small changes generally (not including the scaling changes). Shame there was nothing for Anub'arak, I think he could do with a little bit of an hp buff to bring him more in line. Was also expecting some other changes to older heroes.
I wonder if the change to Deep Chill will make Lingering Chill better now? Or maybe pursuit will be taken more often...
Uther nerf is pretty big though, I can see him dropping off a fair bit. Monk may become the more common pick now, though Uther's utility will still be great.
As much as it pains me to say it, I think Lingering Chill is going to be the standard now.
I am not sure, but i think its a good change. It does make conjurer's pursuit and Q better. Problem is, deep chill and lingering chill are too close so its a bit hard to balance, before deep was the more common, now maybe lingering will be. As long as deep chill is taken sometimes, its a good change.
And i agree, monk might become the number 1 healer but Uther nerf had to come. Introducing Rhegar to HL?
Is anyone else experiencing a lot more venom in games now that rank is shown on the loading screen? Been playing DotA since 2004 and don't wanna be cajoled into picking a role like tank or support (so no ranked play)--I'm rank 40 and hear about it plenty.
A 5% increase in slow is pretty meh... I'll probably prefer a longer duration in the future. But Lingering Chill was picked quite a lot at BlizzCon, actually all of Jaina's level 1 talents were picked, although Conjurer's Pursuit is obviously map dependent.
I like the scaling changes because I feel like the beginning of a game doesn't really matter much and people go all crazy on each other since the death xp is so low. And it makes certain heroes who are better early game stronger (sorry Gazlowe, maybe another time).
On November 12 2015 08:45 Ansinjunger wrote: Is anyone else experiencing a lot more venom in games now that rank is shown on the loading screen? Been playing DotA since 2004 and don't wanna be cajoled into picking a role like tank or support (so no ranked play)--I'm rank 40 and hear about it plenty.
Yeah, this happens a lot. I just have my player level on there rather than HL rank.
On November 12 2015 08:45 Ansinjunger wrote: Is anyone else experiencing a lot more venom in games now that rank is shown on the loading screen? Been playing DotA since 2004 and don't wanna be cajoled into picking a role like tank or support (so no ranked play)--I'm rank 40 and hear about it plenty.
Yeah, this happens a lot. I just have my player level on there rather than HL rank.
I have my player level but I've found it doesn't really helps. Some people have flamed me because they didn't see a rank and so they thought that I wasn't even max lvl and I was a noob unranked..
nooooo Drain hope buff. Now I can't block Drain Hope with Muradin anymore ;_; .
Deep Chill still does the same in most situations and is still the better option for a team fight. But dodging the second hit of the enlarged Blizzard is now easier. So maybe we will a different level 4 with deep chill now. Lingering still OP though if you go for Icy veins.
And wow dodgin sonyas spear is even more important now lol.
A lot of debate about the kills/assist split. I actually like it, and could not care less about who makes the killing blow as long as someone makes it. Also, being a healer or low-damage tank, I would like to see if I actually got some kills, and Im fine if someone else made it.
The worst players imo are the "I topped xp and siege damage" kind, just laning solo all game, never helping out in team fights. This might actually help with that!
I'm kinda uncertain as to whether these changes are good. Especially the removal of the xp stats... 1. There are lots of people who just stay out of fights to get lots of exp. And normally they even think they did well just because of that. I think that's gonna be hard without these stats. 2. Some people just ignore the lanes way too often. Now this won't sven be visible anymore and that's a bad thing, imo. 3. Lost Vikings/Murky/Abathur players are gonna have a hard time explaining what they contributed to the game. Especially the Lost Vikings. Because that's their most important contribution.
On November 12 2015 19:57 Swisslink wrote: I'm kinda uncertain as to whether these changes are good. Especially the removal of the xp stats... 1. There are lots of people who just stay out of fights to get lots of exp. And normally they even think they did well just because of that. I think that's gonna be hard without these stats. 2. Some people just ignore the lanes way too often. Now this won't sven be visible anymore and that's a bad thing, imo. 3. Lost Vikings/Murky/Abathur players are gonna have a hard time explaining what they contributed to the game. Especially the Lost Vikings. Because that's their most important contribution.
All true, but i'm even more worried about the K/A/D Stats beeing separated. Dunno why they changed that to be honest. It's a team based game, why split these stats then? There can only come more toxicity and flaming out of this like "you stole my kill" and "you are so bad, zero kills!!!!111". Maybe ppl will even hold back at the beginning of a fight just to get those kills... oh my
And if this has something to do with the separate MMRs that are to come..... OH MY! 10 kills = +10 MMR, 5 kills = + 8 MMR or sth...? This would be the end
Suprised there are no Artanis tweaks. Would have loved if they put Zealot Charge at lvl 7 and Psionic Energy at 16 or sth. And what about Tychus / Gazlow? Thought they wanted to change sth Also hoped for a small Rehgar buff or bit of a rework to make him more viable again. Buffing his dmg or utility
I think there are many heroes they want to change but they can't change em all at the same time. Anyway, KDA is pretty standard nowadays in FPS games and such which are also team based so I don't see any problem. Yeah it's probably going to result in more arguing, but hey I personally want to see who actually kills people. I'm getting flamed so many times for not doing enough hero damage when I'm sure that I'm the one actually killing people. Like there's a big difference in doing sustained damage and burst damage. For burst damage it's not important that you deal a lot of damage, it's just important that you take heroes down.
Removing XP on the other hand makes no sense... A LOT of people don't realize how important laning/XP is, when I'm playing Azmodan and double solo lane early on instead of doing objectives people in my team ask me wtf I'm doing and in the end I have 3x more XP than anyone else in my team. So at least people can see that I haven't just been afk or done nothing all game. I guess siege damage is kind of similar to XP but I would've preferred if they removed siege damage instead.
Yeah removing XP makes no sense to me. Honestly I think they should show all stats for all characters. Showing how much dmg a warrior took is rather meaningless without seeing how much the non-warriors took. And even better would be damage tanked per death average. XP is one of the least appreciated stats especially at lower levels and quick matches and I don't see what the benefit of removing it is. Show how much healing an abathur did with his shields and talents and likewise for other non-support heroes.
As for Kill/Assist, I don't care that much. Honestly with most people who spend time arguing about stats during a game, it takes way too much time that could be better used just playing. It might give toxic players another thing to fixate on, but I don't know that it makes non-toxic players any more toxic than they were before.
Azmodan pushing instead of doing an objective is certainly a valid tactic, but hopefully you tell your team that is your plan so they don't go all in on a 5 vs 4 team fight expecting your help.
Giving more stats in generel would be nice, but maybe not ingame as there is too much "discussion" potential and wasted time better used playing.
As long as the Azmo realises that at lvl 16 pushing a lane alone will not lead to victory.... and i don't care if you have a "push build", whatever that is!
Well the Exp tab is pretty useless unless you are Abathur or Vikings and want to break records. But for most heroes the value will always be the same. But replacing it with K A D is equally useless. I didn't saw with what they replaced it at the Blizzcon pannel though. I found the "who killed you with what" Death tab pretty retarded already. There will be people that after a bad team fight will stand in the middle of the lane and analyze this for 5 Minutes. Should only show post game or so.
But in other news It will be awesome that people will get slapped with a truck if someone is Bing away.
On November 12 2015 22:39 karazax wrote: Azmodan pushing instead of doing an objective is certainly a valid tactic, but hopefully you tell your team that is your plan so they don't go all in on a 5 vs 4 team fight expecting your help.
Well that they do regardless if you tell them or not
A funny thing I noticed yesterday, is that if you play a game which has a player that is on your friends list you still end up getting the "play with a friend" XP bonus, regardless if that player was on your team or the enemy team. Not sure if intended or not, but it surprised me and I played like 5 games straight with that guy because player variety is apparently shit ^^
It's just funny to read that the Kill/assist change is being made to highlight the contributions of assassins, and then remove the XP list. Especially in quick match and lower levels of play the xp contributions can vary by a huge margin for all characters. TLV , Murky and Abathur already get tons of hate at that level even with the option to see how much XP they are contributing. The higher the level of play, the less necessary any stats are to justify or figure out what is going wrong during the game.
I like the suggestion I saw on reddit to keep the current setup the way it is, but add a "kills" stat for assassins in the "role" column that tracks the number of kills they actually secured.
Well the Exp tab is pretty useless unless you are Abathur or Vikings and want to break records. But for most heroes the value will always be the same.
I look at the tab fairly regularly even when I'm not an xp-focused hero. I use it to gauge how much time I spent in lane in comparison to teammates, then ask myself it was really a problem if I had the lowest xp in a particular game. It's a stat that is best used in conjunction with reflection on how the game went. (but then again, what stat isn't like that?)
On November 12 2015 19:57 Swisslink wrote: I'm kinda uncertain as to whether these changes are good. Especially the removal of the xp stats... 1. There are lots of people who just stay out of fights to get lots of exp. And normally they even think they did well just because of that. I think that's gonna be hard without these stats. 2. Some people just ignore the lanes way too often. Now this won't sven be visible anymore and that's a bad thing, imo. 3. Lost Vikings/Murky/Abathur players are gonna have a hard time explaining what they contributed to the game. Especially the Lost Vikings. Because that's their most important contribution.
I usually have top siege damage with the Vikings too ^^. But yeah, I think the biggest problem is that there are no benchmarks or ways to tell if someone needs to be soaking more or not.
Here's what I would like to see, ultimately:
| Kills | Deaths | Assists | XP Contribution |
With a second tab during the score screen that shows:
| Siege Damage | Hero Damage | Damage Taken | Healing | Time Spent Dead |
I would love to just get rid of the "Role" column altogether if possible. It's fairly meaningless to call it a "role", but the numbers for Damage Taken and Healing are important benchmarks for some players, as are the numbers for XP contribution. I don't think the separation of kills and deaths really means anything other than giving casters something to latch onto. In games like Dota or LoL, kills are actually very significant vs assists because they indicate how much gold that player is getting and thus, how "fed" that particular Hero or Champion is. Since everyone is on an equal playing field across the team in Heroes, kills vs assists is rather meaningless, but I understand why Blizzard would want to split it up just for the sake of consistency.
I like the statistics on Time Spent Dead in LoL/Dota as well because it allows you to see why certain numbers like XP contribution and Damage Taken were rather low. In other MOBAs, it's a very useful statistic to measure how often you missed out on farm in lane, and to what degree trading kills is worth in relation to the importance of staying in lane. Now, these things don't translate directly, but they still give players a decent idea of why it seems like they didn't contribute as much as they would have liked to the team, especially with the increased Level 1-10 death timers.
I think it's important to know that Browder has stated the reason for the Kills/Assists change: he wants to bring "honor" to assassins by highlighting the role they play on the team. This seems to me to be the goal of the "Role" column in general: not to give meaningful statistics to help improve play, but to give something players can feel proud of. I don't see a problem with this from a game-design perspective, but I do wish they would be a bit more consistent with how they separate "honor" stats from "performance" stats.
On November 13 2015 01:10 MotherFox wrote: I think it's important to know that Browder has stated the reason for the Kills/Assists change: he wants to bring "honor" to assassins by highlighting the role they play on the team. This seems to me to be the goal of the "Role" column in general: not to give meaningful statistics to help improve play, but to give something players can feel proud of. I don't see a problem with this from a game-design perspective, but I do wish they would be a bit more consistent with how they separate "honor" stats from "performance" stats.
Yeah, stats mean absolutely nothing during the game in Heroes other than numbers to argue over and bitch about. The only purpose they really serve are personal benchmarks so that you know approximately how much you should be healing, tanking, soaking as well as what your kill participation was.
Trying to "honor" people by creating statistics that encourage dick-measuring is not useful.
Tyrael and ETC will heal you but the stat doesn't exist. Uther, Illidan, Kerrigan, Karazhim, or even TLV will soak damage for you but you won't see it either.
I think all the current columns are necessary, and even more , but after game. Whiners will whine, it calms down as you climb. The kill ratio is extremely important ingame, like our Raynor giving hate to people today but he was 3/9. So if he hadn't be such a douche he could have listened to us and actually waited his team and positioned in the backline. Usually people will listen.
If they put a kill column I'll have them all when playing as Nova. It's so stupid. And if MMR is based on this I'll be rank 1 in a week.
So, I tried out some chen last night. I didn't realize that even after all this time his flying kick is still bugged--- after only a handful of games I had a kick fail to go to the other side of an enemy like 3 or 4 times. [Every time I noticed it it resulted in a failed gank or me dying because I couldn't escape.
Why isn't this ability fixed by now? There are plenty of bug reports out there from the last month, so Bliz should be aware already--- if this ability actually worked the way its worded (eg-- like illidan's leap) the character would be much more fun to play.
I find Chen to be pretty fun to play anyway. He's basically a giant panda shaped troll, goading people into attacking him. Pretty good in lane and can push hard if left uncontested. Other than that, he's beyond useless.
On November 17 2015 06:25 Larkin wrote: I find Chen to be pretty fun to play anyway. He's basically a giant panda shaped troll, goading people into attacking him. Pretty good in lane and can push hard if left uncontested. Other than that, he's beyond useless.
right...but if his q worked better, he might actually be capable of making plays more consistently.
On November 17 2015 06:25 Larkin wrote: I find Chen to be pretty fun to play anyway. He's basically a giant panda shaped troll, goading people into attacking him. Pretty good in lane and can push hard if left uncontested. Other than that, he's beyond useless.
right...but if his q worked better, he might actually be capable of making plays more consistently.
Eh, I'm not sure how much a difference it'd make, really. His mechanic is just too crippling, having to drink every few seconds to be able to achieve anything - it's not like Sonya who constantly regains fury with attacks, with Chen you literally have to stand still. If the other team attacks you while you're drinking, great, but other than that, you're not doing anything like damage or CC - and apart from slows, Chen doesn't offer much in that regard anyway. Except for the barrel heroic...
Chen is awful and this is coming from someone who still finds him fun.
He's the only Hero I can think of that's offensive damage ult (Panda Pals) is a strictly inferior to his base form. Like you lose out so much when you pop panda's. You need that ult too because you don't do damage until lvl 16+ and only if you take Combination Kick.
Chen at this point needs a (minor) rework I feel like. So many parts of his kit are just plain absurd, not fun, and so brainless to play. LITERALLY Brewmaster's Balance is the only interesting part of his kit that forces you to make complicated decisions (knowing when to be above/below 50% is everything).
I would love to see some form of Brewmaster's be added base level to him (would have to be nerfed a bit obv) and Blizz taking another stab at his ults and some talents. I'm still surprised there is not a talent to allow you to move and drink, just at a reduced speed or something.
Honestly the only thing I think that could bring him back would be some sort of shield build using him as a tanky support, and still that's not even that appealing since it's on a 13 talent....
EPT
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. People are way to driven by buffs and nerfs, so balance fuckups like this patch happen to frequently. And I don't mean stitches alone.
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