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On November 09 2015 11:10 SC2John wrote:
WHAT NOW, HOW MANY STATIC CHARGE BUILDS ON TASSADAR DID YOU SEE DURING BLIZZCON.
Sorry, I just wanted to glory in my triumph in insisting that Static Charge was just bad. In any case, Deep Shift makes Tassadar a lot "tankier" and allows him to poke out alone and get vision away for the team anytime he wants to.
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C9 almost always use Static Charge, and they have won the Blizzcon and are the team that use Tassadar the most so... :/
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United States4883 Posts
On November 09 2015 20:57 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2015 11:10 SC2John wrote:
WHAT NOW, HOW MANY STATIC CHARGE BUILDS ON TASSADAR DID YOU SEE DURING BLIZZCON.
Sorry, I just wanted to glory in my triumph in insisting that Static Charge was just bad. In any case, Deep Shift makes Tassadar a lot "tankier" and allows him to poke out alone and get vision away for the team anytime he wants to. ? C9 almost always use Static Charge, and they have won the Blizzcon and are the team that use Tassadar the most so... :/
C9's Tassadar play blows. Well, it was better on Fan.
DK and Bheart play a much more convincing Tassadar.
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On November 09 2015 21:50 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2015 20:57 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 09 2015 11:10 SC2John wrote:
WHAT NOW, HOW MANY STATIC CHARGE BUILDS ON TASSADAR DID YOU SEE DURING BLIZZCON.
Sorry, I just wanted to glory in my triumph in insisting that Static Charge was just bad. In any case, Deep Shift makes Tassadar a lot "tankier" and allows him to poke out alone and get vision away for the team anytime he wants to. ? C9 almost always use Static Charge, and they have won the Blizzcon and are the team that use Tassadar the most so... :/ C9's Tassadar play blows. Well, it was better on Fan. DK and Bheart play a much more convincing Tassadar.
For me winning a Blizzcon while being the team who played Tassadar "the most" is quite convincing.
Doesn't matter if Dk and Bheart play much "better" Tassadar when they haven't been able to do anything with it.
In the end that talent isn't such huge deal, if you need more damage I would go for Static Charge, if you need to survive more or are main support, Shield and Deep Shift are better talents.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 09 2015 22:31 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2015 21:50 SC2John wrote:On November 09 2015 20:57 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 09 2015 11:10 SC2John wrote:
WHAT NOW, HOW MANY STATIC CHARGE BUILDS ON TASSADAR DID YOU SEE DURING BLIZZCON.
Sorry, I just wanted to glory in my triumph in insisting that Static Charge was just bad. In any case, Deep Shift makes Tassadar a lot "tankier" and allows him to poke out alone and get vision away for the team anytime he wants to. ? C9 almost always use Static Charge, and they have won the Blizzcon and are the team that use Tassadar the most so... :/ C9's Tassadar play blows. Well, it was better on Fan. DK and Bheart play a much more convincing Tassadar. For me winning a Blizzcon while being the team who played Tassadar "the most" is quite convincing. Doesn't matter if Dk and Bheart play much "better" Tassadar when they haven't been able to do anything with it. In the end that talent isn't such huge deal, if you need more damage I would go for Static Charge, if you need to survive more or are main support, Shield and Deep Shift are better talents.
It's not like C9 won off the back of excellent Tassadar play -_-. Saying "they won the tournament, so their Tassadar play must be good" is a complete overgeneralization.
In any case, my point was that on Day 2 and 3, we only saw one Tassadar build with Static Charge; mind you, that was the Murky game. There was a very obvious shift in the builds players were doing away from Static Charge to Deep Shift, and it's not like the compositions were any different. Quit trying to cover your eyes.
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I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection.
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On November 09 2015 14:33 MotherFox wrote:
* Jaina is really strong. I've been overlooking Icy Veins for far too long.
* I usually prefer KT to Jaina, because KT has a stun and I feel like I can duel with him better. Tonight someone took KT, so I drafted Jaina instead. I decided to go a standard build with ice block, which I usually don't do--- I frequently get storm front for extra safety. I was dueling KT, thinking I was going to lose because I usually win as KT when dueling enemy jainas. He gravity lapsed me, then used his flamestrike and living bomb. The moment I got out of the gravity lapse I hit iceblock just on impulse, and then both the flamestrike and living bomb completely wiffed as a result.
Holy f^$#ing s$#! How did this never occur to me before? Jaina can iceblock out of almost every single bit of damage that KT can churn out. As soon as the spells wiffed I un-iceblocked and killed him. The game proceeded that way with him never being able to work out how to actually get damage onto me.
1. Double bombs then lapse? Should bring Jaina down to at least 50%
2. Stay at max range with KT, so Cone is useless and bolts miss a lot
3. Repeat step 1 with a flamestrike after lapse
4. ...
5. Money
Also <3 Muradin!
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On November 10 2015 01:26 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2015 14:33 MotherFox wrote:
* Jaina is really strong. I've been overlooking Icy Veins for far too long.
* I usually prefer KT to Jaina, because KT has a stun and I feel like I can duel with him better. Tonight someone took KT, so I drafted Jaina instead. I decided to go a standard build with ice block, which I usually don't do--- I frequently get storm front for extra safety. I was dueling KT, thinking I was going to lose because I usually win as KT when dueling enemy jainas. He gravity lapsed me, then used his flamestrike and living bomb. The moment I got out of the gravity lapse I hit iceblock just on impulse, and then both the flamestrike and living bomb completely wiffed as a result.
Holy f^$#ing s$#! How did this never occur to me before? Jaina can iceblock out of almost every single bit of damage that KT can churn out. As soon as the spells wiffed I un-iceblocked and killed him. The game proceeded that way with him never being able to work out how to actually get damage onto me.
1. Double bombs then lapse? Should bring Jaina down to at least 50% 2. Stay at max range with KT, so Cone is useless and bolts miss a lot 3. Repeat step 1 with a flamestrike after lapse 4. ... 5. Money Also <3 Muradin!
Your #1 and #2 are contradictory: KT has to get close to cast bombs, which is why I typically stun, then walk up instead of the other way around. Though with Jainas there is always that dance of "wait until they use their abilities and then kill the stupid ice princess because she's useless now".
Also can't imagine missing KT with bolts since he is so fat, but then again I missed a lot of hammer tosses with muradin yesterday in fairly convincing fashion...
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On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote:
I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection.
Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him.
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On November 10 2015 01:46 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote:
I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection. Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him.
I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero.
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On November 10 2015 01:47 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2015 01:46 Wuster wrote:On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote:
I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection. Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him. I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero.
I don't think it is quite as simple as that: tassadar does many unique things not related to his 7 talent choice at all. The decision to sacrifice a little bit of survivability for a little bit of damage is nuanced enough that maybe only a pro would make that choice, but it's not completely a nonstarter IMO.
For instance, exactly which other hero would have been better for extra damage in c9's comp? Well, they clearly needed a little extra damage--- but tass's shields were a vital part of the comp's goal.
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On November 10 2015 01:52 MotherFox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2015 01:47 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2015 01:46 Wuster wrote:On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote:
I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection. Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him. I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero. I don't think it is quite as simple as that: tassadar does many unique things not related to his 7 talent choice at all. The decision to sacrifice a little bit of survivability for a little bit of damage is nuanced enough that maybe only a pro would make that choice, but it's not completely a nonstarter IMO. For instance, exactly which other hero would have been better for extra damage in c9's comp? Well, they clearly needed a little extra damage--- but tass's shields were a vital part of the comp's goal.
Tassadar was chosen for his mobility and the ability to allow disengagements. The shielding is a bonus. The extra damage from Static Charge is insignificant,
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On November 10 2015 02:25 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2015 01:52 MotherFox wrote:On November 10 2015 01:47 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2015 01:46 Wuster wrote:On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote:
I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection. Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him. I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero. I don't think it is quite as simple as that: tassadar does many unique things not related to his 7 talent choice at all. The decision to sacrifice a little bit of survivability for a little bit of damage is nuanced enough that maybe only a pro would make that choice, but it's not completely a nonstarter IMO. For instance, exactly which other hero would have been better for extra damage in c9's comp? Well, they clearly needed a little extra damage--- but tass's shields were a vital part of the comp's goal. Tassadar was chosen for his mobility and the ability to allow disengagements. The shielding is a bonus. The extra damage from Static Charge is insignificant,
But still clearly more desirable to c9 than any of the other options at level 7 in that situation.
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On November 10 2015 02:37 MotherFox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2015 02:25 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2015 01:52 MotherFox wrote:On November 10 2015 01:47 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2015 01:46 Wuster wrote:On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote:
I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection. Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him. I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero. I don't think it is quite as simple as that: tassadar does many unique things not related to his 7 talent choice at all. The decision to sacrifice a little bit of survivability for a little bit of damage is nuanced enough that maybe only a pro would make that choice, but it's not completely a nonstarter IMO. For instance, exactly which other hero would have been better for extra damage in c9's comp? Well, they clearly needed a little extra damage--- but tass's shields were a vital part of the comp's goal. Tassadar was chosen for his mobility and the ability to allow disengagements. The shielding is a bonus. The extra damage from Static Charge is insignificant, But still clearly more desirable to c9 than any of the other options at level 7 in that situation.
You're presuming that C9's reasoning for taking that talent was sound. Mathematically, it's a very bad talent. And it's even worse when considering that Force Wall was taken over Archon.
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On November 10 2015 02:43 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2015 02:37 MotherFox wrote:On November 10 2015 02:25 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2015 01:52 MotherFox wrote:On November 10 2015 01:47 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2015 01:46 Wuster wrote:On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote:
I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection. Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him. I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero. I don't think it is quite as simple as that: tassadar does many unique things not related to his 7 talent choice at all. The decision to sacrifice a little bit of survivability for a little bit of damage is nuanced enough that maybe only a pro would make that choice, but it's not completely a nonstarter IMO. For instance, exactly which other hero would have been better for extra damage in c9's comp? Well, they clearly needed a little extra damage--- but tass's shields were a vital part of the comp's goal. Tassadar was chosen for his mobility and the ability to allow disengagements. The shielding is a bonus. The extra damage from Static Charge is insignificant, But still clearly more desirable to c9 than any of the other options at level 7 in that situation. You're presuming that C9's reasoning for taking that talent was sound. Mathematically, it's a very bad talent. And it's even worse when considering that Force Wall was taken over Archon.
Archon doesn't make much of a difference IMO. The only thing archon lets you do is trigger all the charges with one attack instead of 3 or so--- but if you only hit 3 members of the enemy team, it won't take much to trigger them anyway. Archon makes a huge difference when clearling minion waves--- but comon, we're talking about utility in team fights here with respect to archon.
Mathematically you are choosing nominal damage over:
* Mule, which is arguably not useful in the pro scene
* Khala's embrace, which doesn't actually offer extra stats--- it just offers the opportunity to convert mana at a bad ratio to shields in between fights (but you are still burning mana for those shields. In this game tass took overload I think, so mana is more precious to this tassadar)
* Deep shift-- only matters if you actually need the extra 1.5 seconds to get out. Otherwise it's an extra 1.5 seconds of not being able to do things and is actively bad.
Compared to these options I can see static charge being useful in certain situations.
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On November 10 2015 02:48 MotherFox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2015 02:43 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2015 02:37 MotherFox wrote:On November 10 2015 02:25 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2015 01:52 MotherFox wrote:On November 10 2015 01:47 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2015 01:46 Wuster wrote:On November 09 2015 22:44 xDaunt wrote:
I played with a Tassadar yesterday on Haunted Mines who went Static Charge (instead of MULE) and Force Wall. As our core sat their damaged, all I could think of is how much I wanted SC2John around to punch that guy in the nuts for his stupid talent selection. Well I think the point is Tassadar has a lot of real options, especially on that tier. Nothing's really set in stone. I wouldn't blindly go mule each game either with him. I'm not sure about that. I don't know why Tassadar would ever take Static Charge now. If you really want to build for damage, you're better off taking another hero. I don't think it is quite as simple as that: tassadar does many unique things not related to his 7 talent choice at all. The decision to sacrifice a little bit of survivability for a little bit of damage is nuanced enough that maybe only a pro would make that choice, but it's not completely a nonstarter IMO. For instance, exactly which other hero would have been better for extra damage in c9's comp? Well, they clearly needed a little extra damage--- but tass's shields were a vital part of the comp's goal. Tassadar was chosen for his mobility and the ability to allow disengagements. The shielding is a bonus. The extra damage from Static Charge is insignificant, But still clearly more desirable to c9 than any of the other options at level 7 in that situation. You're presuming that C9's reasoning for taking that talent was sound. Mathematically, it's a very bad talent. And it's even worse when considering that Force Wall was taken over Archon. Archon doesn't make much of a difference IMO. The only thing archons let you do is trigger all the charges with one attack instead of 3--- but if you only hit 3 members of the enemy team, it won't take much to trigger them anyway. Mathematically you are choosing nominal damage over: * Mule, which is arguably not useful in the pro scene * Khala's embrace, which doesn't actually offer extra stats--- it just offers some weak shields you can build up in between fights (but you are still burning mana for those shields. In this game tass took overload I think, so mana is more precious to this tassadar) * Deep shift-- only matters if you actually need the extra 1.5 seconds to get out. Otherwise it's an extra 1.5 seconds of not being able to do things and is actively bad. Compared to these options I can see static charge being useful in certain situations.
MULE most certainly is not useless. And while it is not at its best on a map like Cursed Hollow, it still would have had utility given C9's asymmetric attrition strategy.
For influencing the outcomes of teamfights, Khala's Embrace is just clearly better than Static Charge when Archon isn't taken. It's not even close.
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In that game where the plan was keep Murky up, who died all the time anyways, Khala's Embrace wouldn't have done much.
I agree MULE would have fit their strat to stall out the game while Abathur does his business. However, given their weird comp, they probably felt like damage was at a premium so were taking Static Charge to eek out every last drop.
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On November 10 2015 02:55 Wuster wrote:
In that game where the plan was keep Murky up, who died all the time anyways, Khala's Embrace wouldn't have done much.
I agree MULE would have fit their strat to stall out the game while Abathur does his business. However, given their weird comp, they probably felt like damage was at a premium so were taking Static Charge to eek out every last drop.
I would have to watch the replay, but the only building left partially damaged by DK that I remember was one of C9's keeps, and that building was never destroyed anyway. Generally pros seem to attack once they are sure they can secure the destruction of the building.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 10 2015 02:55 Wuster wrote:
In that game where the plan was keep Murky up, who died all the time anyways, Khala's Embrace wouldn't have done much.
I agree MULE would have fit their strat to stall out the game while Abathur does his business. However, given their weird comp, they probably felt like damage was at a premium so were taking Static Charge to eek out every last drop.
Leeching Plasma/Khala's Embrace would have excellent for that composition, but they made it work a different way. Not sure if I liked the Psi-Infusion/Static Charge combo, but I can see why that would be considered valid with that particular composition.
In more standard compositions, Tassadar is usually taken in lieu of a second warrior and synergizes well with melee assassins. When you take Deep Shift (or even the Leeching Plasma/Khala's Embrace combo), you gain a lot of autonomy once the level 13/16 talents roll in. After that point, Tassadar can stand way away from the rest of the team to get vision, prevent flanks, soak up damage, or distract opponents from objectives. He should be one of the first ones heading into objectives and one of the last people leaving fights (and peeling for allies). For these reasons, I kind of like to refer to him as a late game tank, even though most people don't want to admit it.
The way that Dunktrain and Kaeyoh in particular played him was way too safe and didn't make full use of his ability to roam around by himself or soak up tons of damage for free.
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You know, ultimately that game was something we haven't seen a lot of. Murky is very rare in competitive and Abathur backdoor strats were considered outdated. It feels pretty presumptuous to be saying of they made this mistake or that mistake with their talent selection. I think there's a very good chance they practiced those scenarios before Blizzcon and this is what they ended up on.
Besides, Dunktrain wasn't on Tassadar that game (he was Brightwing), they put K1Pro on him.
Besides, talking more about that comp it didn't work flawlessly anyways. Leoric died a ton and Octograb secured very, very few kills. But the comp seemed good at punishing over-extensions with how fast Murky (and by extension Abathur and Brightwing) could jump in to finish off a closely fought team fight (like at bottom keep when they came back in to clean up DK). In hindsight Leoric fit that idea very well too.
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Was it psi-infusion? I was assuming it was overload to maximize the potential to disrupt the curses and slow the game down.
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EPT
