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On November 11 2015 03:19 MotherFox wrote:
Not to mention cleanse being on almost every solo support in the game.
But never picked. Also it requires a support which is rare to get in QM. Oh wait it's Morales week, go ahead and play some games and tell me how many of them that picks Cleanse. Because in my close to 2000 games I've pretty much never seen anyone pick it, doesn't matter that you tell them that it's fucking awesome vs Octo-Grab, supports play the way they want, like I've said earlier about Abathur. Hell I've even had two supports on my team vs Murky and none of them picked Cleanse. Although I can understand why people don't like picking it, it's not exactly easy to use except on obvious stuns like Octo-Grab and The Butcher's charge etc.
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On November 11 2015 03:58 Freezard wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2015 03:19 MotherFox wrote:
Not to mention cleanse being on almost every solo support in the game. But never picked. Also it requires a support which is rare to get in QM. Oh wait it's Morales week, go ahead and play some games and tell me how many of them that picks Cleanse. Because in my close to 2000 games I've pretty much never seen anyone pick it, doesn't matter that you tell them that it's fucking awesome vs Octo-Grab, supports play the way they want, like I've said earlier about Abathur. Hell I've even had two supports on my team vs Murky and none of them picked Cleanse. Although I can understand why people don't like picking it, it's not exactly easy to use except on obvious stuns like Octo-Grab and The Butcher's charge etc.
If the enemy team has strong chain-stun potential and your healer doesn't opt for cleanse I can't really help you. This isn't a matter of chain stun being too powerful: it's your healer not thinking about talent choices. I personally don't think it's difficult to use at all--- I frequently use it to counter roots as well as stuns.
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Caldeum1977 Posts
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sooo excited for these heroes to hit the nexus. Lunara looks really fun to play.
edit-> plus, it'll be fun to get carried by someone on chogall
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Caldeum1977 Posts
On November 11 2015 04:16 MotherFox wrote:
sooo excited for these heroes to hit the nexus. Lunara looks really fun to play.
edit-> plus, it'll be fun to get carried by someone on chogall
Literally carried if you are Gall 
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Yeah I am pretty much looking forward all three heroes, all three of them are really cool and unique.
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On November 11 2015 03:19 MotherFox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2015 03:15 karazax wrote:
Relentless is an option for six heroes out of 43, so wouldn't say that's really a lot of characters. Eight heroes at least-- lili and raynor have upgraded versions of it. 18% of the character base is a lot, I would say. Not to mention cleanse being on almost every solo support in the game. (plus all the unstoppable effects--- johanna doesn't have relentless, but would she even need it?)
I was including Raynor in the 6, but not LiLi. Unless I missed someone, the heroes who have relentless are:
Arthas, Chen, Kharazim, Stitches and Tychus. Then LiLi has shake it off at lvl 7 and Raynor has Relentless Leader at 13. Currently only Arthas, Kharazim and Raynor see regular play at the pro level out of those. LiLi and Chen are basically unplayable at the pro level against CC heavy teams even with their anti-stun talents. Your reply seemed to imply that anti-stun talents for all heroes was already an option at 13, when clearly it's not for the majority.
Cleanse was a great counter pre-nerf. It's still an option, but now it's much less effective. Certainly support players not picking cleanse is foolish against a CC heavy team, and cleanse is a much better suggestion as a counter than pointing out relentless is there for 7 heroes.
Anyway, I'm not saying that chain CC absolutely needs to be nerfed right now, but it would not surprise me if it was reduced in the future based on Blizzard's history with chain CC in World of Warcraft pvp.
EDIT: Missed Azmodan as another who has relentless, though I don't know that he would ever pick it.
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Chen's actually played sometimes. I think Dignitas and DK draft him.
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Caldeum1977 Posts
Azmodan also has relentless, but no one uses it on him for obvious reasons.
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On November 11 2015 05:05 Ej_ wrote:
Chen's actually played sometimes. I think Dignitas and DK draft him.
And they both lost with him. He is basically only a safe pick at the pro level against a team with few to no stuns, in which case you probably don't need relentless anyway.
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Caldeum1977 Posts
G2 used to use Chen to counter Zagara on Dragon Shire. It worked okay. Chen would just follow Zagara to lane and Zagara couldn't even break his shields so it was an easy stalemate, while more offensive heroes for G2 could take control of the other lanes.
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I don't think any of the heroes who have relentless could be considered a strong counter pick against a CC heavy team. In fact most of them are terrible choices against CC heavy teams. I can see Blizzard adding Relentless as an additional talent choice for every hero if they deem Chain CC to be too strong in the future though. At 13, most heroes would probably still not pick it in most matches.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 11 2015 05:02 karazax wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2015 03:19 MotherFox wrote:On November 11 2015 03:15 karazax wrote:
Relentless is an option for six heroes out of 43, so wouldn't say that's really a lot of characters. Eight heroes at least-- lili and raynor have upgraded versions of it. 18% of the character base is a lot, I would say. Not to mention cleanse being on almost every solo support in the game. (plus all the unstoppable effects--- johanna doesn't have relentless, but would she even need it?) I was including Raynor in the 6, but not LiLi. Unless I missed someone, the heroes who have relentless are: Arthas, Chen, Kharazim, Stitches and Tychus. Then LiLi has shake it off at lvl 7 and Raynor has Relentless Leader at 13. Currently only Arthas, Kharazim and Raynor see regular play at the pro level out of those. LiLi and Chen are basically unplayable at the pro level against CC heavy teams even with their anti-stun talents. Your reply seemed to imply that anti-stun talents for all heroes was already an option at 13, when clearly it's not for the majority. Cleanse was a great counter pre-nerf. It's still an option, but now it's much less effective. Certainly support players not picking cleanse is foolish against a CC heavy team, and cleanse is a much better suggestion as a counter than pointing out relentless is there for 7 heroes. Anyway, I'm not saying that chain CC absolutely needs to be nerfed right now, but it would not surprise me if it was reduced in the future based on Blizzard's history with chain CC in World of Warcraft pvp. EDIT: Missed Azmodan as another who has relentless, though I don't know that he would ever pick it.
And Sonya! ^^ (WotB)
On November 11 2015 05:44 karazax wrote:
I don't think any of the heroes who have relentless could be considered a strong counter pick against a CC heavy team. In fact most of them are terrible choices against CC heavy teams. I can see Blizzard adding Relentless as an additional talent choice for every hero if they deem Chain CC to be too strong in the future though. At 13, most heroes would probably still not pick it in most matches.
In any case, I wouldn't consider heroes with Relentless a "counter" to CC heavy compositions by any means. Thinking of it those terms just doesn't make a lot of sense. The big trend we're seeing are ways to "overshield" people from harm or break up fights with disruptive Heroics. In terms of overshielding, we're seeing a lot of Tassadar being worked into double support compositions as well as heroes like Kharazim being prioritized and optimized simply for insane healing numbers. Pro players will take Echo of Heaven 100% of the time over Cleanse, even if the other team is very CC heavy because the increase in healing is more effective (also, he happens to have Relentless, which is a nice perk). Disruptive abilities like Void Prison, Force Wall, Entomb, Holy Ground, and even stuff like Shadowstalk and Lightning Breath all help to break up team fights a bit or dissuade opponents from clumping up and riding the stun train to a win.
I'd rather not see a nerf to stuns, especially some kind of blanket nerf, but I understand that chain stuns are very unforgiving and can completely shut people down who are out position -- but positioning is all about skill in the first place. All in all, I think the balance is currently in a really nice place right now, and I'm looking forward to seeing how the new heroes interact with the meta.
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On November 11 2015 07:00 SC2John wrote:
And Sonya! ^^ (WotB)
I KNEW there was one I was missing.
My point is there is lots of anti-cc baked into the game in the form of different types of cleanses, cc reduction, and unstoppable frames.(I suppose there is also stasis and invulnerability) Pointing out that some forms of cc reduction are not useful would be like claiming hard cc isn't powerful because ministuns on some characters are not overly out of control. The aggregate picture, though, is that there are many ways to deal with hard cc.
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There's also the Metamorphosis and Avatar upgrades but yeah they're at 20. Well, I'm just saying that the chain stuns might be a bigger issue in the future when there are more heroes with stun and longer durations. Like isn't Avatar already able to completely stun lock someone since Stim Drone appeared? Anyway it also has to do with the shitty matchmaking which I hope they'll improve soon because things like having to play Illidan without a tank/support vs 4 stunners are driving me nuts. That happened twice to me yesterday, so I decided to go tank cause hey people mostly play assassins. Guess what, got a full team of non-assassins that could do no damage at all, so the next game I switched to assassin and got a team with four assassins and one weak specialist. Blizzard plz.
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The only thing that bugs me in QM is when they give me strange comps vs relatively normal comps. I don't mind strange vs strange, but I do want that sense of fairness.
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I find strange beats normal if all 5 are aware when the strange comp is stronger. But if you have 4 tanks and Tassadar and 3 of the tanks go for tank talents, then of course the other side will win. But if Tassadar tells me he can defend 2 lanes and that we should go ham. Then the enemy is screwed.
In terms of stuns ... there are heroes that do well against CC and there are supports that do well againt CC. If you of course don't pick those heroes against 4+ stuns, then you will have to play really good to avoid that. I mean Lili turns into a Goddess if the enemy team has to rely on stun chains to kill someone.
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Started to playing Raynor the other day as he almost seems first pick material nowadays in HL.
Wow he is strong in HL. I feel he is a hero who can really shine in SoloQ.
Was playing Blackhearts Bay, all of my teammates pusing botlane, i was soaking Mid and Top, getting XP and stacking Marksman. The enemy team all got to bot to defend their fort, leaving me alone. This is when i made the critical call that maybe decided this game. i stayed top, continuing to soak both lanes. And my team didn't die
We got a huge lead, snowballing out of control and i had 46 stacks by lvl 16, just melting everyone while i still had 2 x 1,5 sec stun every 6-9ish seconds! How OP is that! (1)marksmann (4)focused (7) clinic (10) raiders (13) double barrel (16) bullseye
TLDR; Raynor Gooood!! Talent diversity allows for 2-3ish different builds, which is nice. Love that guy, and so relaxed play unlike someone like Uther ^^
EDIT: Checking Hotslogs, his winrate is at 70% in all leagues, even masters, which is crazy.
My personal winrate is at 75% with him.
Also, why is nobody ever picking clinic on 7? 1,5sec CD reduction for killing stuff is awesome! Or did i get sth wrong here?
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On November 11 2015 09:35 FeyFey wrote:
I find strange beats normal if all 5 are aware when the strange comp is stronger. But if you have 4 tanks and Tassadar and 3 of the tanks go for tank talents, then of course the other side will win. But if Tassadar tells me he can defend 2 lanes and that we should go ham. Then the enemy is screwed.
Yea, I got a 3 warrior 2 support (ETC, Muradin, Sonya, Uther and Medic IIRC) QM team the other day. We were up against 3 assassin + warrior + support. Everyone of us built for dmg and CC, except medic who went full healbot, and we utterly destroyed them on Battle Field of Eternity, because they couldn't hurt us at all and they got pulled apart in team fights. I believe the game was over by lvl 16-17 with us having a 3 lvl lead.
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On November 11 2015 23:07 Harris1st wrote:
Started to playing Raynor the other day as he almost seems first pick material nowadays in HL.
Wow he is strong in HL. I feel he is a hero who can really shine in SoloQ.
Was playing Blackhearts Bay, all of my teammates pusing botlane, i was soaking Mid and Top, getting XP and stacking Marksman. The enemy team all got to bot to defend their fort, leaving me alone. This is when i made the critical call that maybe decided this game. i stayed top, continuing to soak both lanes. And my team didn't die
We got a huge lead, snowballing out of control and i had 46 stacks by lvl 16, just melting everyone while i still had 2 x 1,5 sec stun every 6-9ish seconds! How OP is that! (1)marksmann (4)focused (7) clinic (10) raiders (13) double barrel (16) bullseye
TLDR; Raynor Gooood!! Talent diversity allows for 2-3ish different builds, which is nice. Love that guy, and so relaxed play unlike someone like Uther ^^
EDIT: Checking Hotslogs, his winrate is at 70% in all leagues, even masters, which is crazy.
My personal winrate is at 75% with him.
Also, why is nobody ever picking clinic on 7? 1,5sec CD reduction for killing stuff is awesome! Or did i get sth wrong here?
Um, hotslogs tells me his winrate is more like 55%? His popularity is near 70%, though.
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EPT
