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Yeah, playing the same hero over and over is boring. I have only a few heroes i didn't really played past lvl 5 or so, and a bunch that are mostly for quick match.
About Rhegar, its pretty hard to justify him over Uther and sometimes Kharazim (honestly, i rather see a Rhegar in draft since most monks are bad, the few Rhegars out there are usually better imo). Its just the monk taking his place while Uther is a monster since forever. The other healers play in different niches and are not really a competition for him.
Rhegar is not bad imo, he might make it into pro draft if people ban main healers.
The support role needs some of that magic from the last warrior patch. Rhegar shoudn't overlap that much with other superior healers, but i have no clue how to solve that. But one good example is malf, he is not necessarily better or worse than monk, he is different.
Stacking attack speed would just make the animation look weird, i guess.
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On October 30 2015 02:03 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 01:55 Tenks wrote:
I really hate what they did with Rehgar. He used to be a really fun fairly high skill healer. Now all you can really do is stand in the back and spam Qs until you need to R someone. Did he get any balance changes? I don't recall at all. He just always seemed lackluster other than healing and now that there are more healers with better utility, why bother with a no-damage low-utility healer (I know this is describing Monk too, but he has better healing imo).
He got his talents shuffled and some new ones added I think when they gave him Cleanse. Most notable they gave him more/better Q talents. It used to be as Rehgar you'd want to be in the middle of the battle because you could do some pretty decent damage. But now since you generally don't go Feral Lunge and B4B got nerfed his damage spec kind of got neutered (pun intended.) So now the most optimal way to play is to just stand in the back lines and Q/W on cooldown.
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On October 30 2015 02:36 Superbanana wrote:
Yeah, playing the same hero over and over is boring. I have only a few heroes i didn't really played past lvl 5 or so, and a bunch that are mostly for quick match.
About Rhegar, its pretty hard to justify him over Uther and sometimes Kharazim (honestly, i rather see a Rhegar in draft since most monks are bad, the few Rhegars out there are usually better imo). Its just the monk taking his place while Uther is a monster since forever. The other healers play in different niches and are not really a competition for him.
Rhegar is not bad imo, he might make it into pro draft if people ban main healers.
The support role needs some of that magic from the last warrior patch. Rhegar shoudn't overlap that much with other superior healers, but i have no clue how to solve that. But one good example is malf, he is not necessarily better or worse than monk, he is different.
Stacking attack speed would just make the animation look weird, i guess.
Man, Warriors are in such a good place now. I didn't expect Diablo to see play, but he is does. I likewise didn't think Sanctification would see as much play as it is, but Tyrael has two viable heroic! Just like Leoric, Anub'arak and Arthas! Plus, Sonya / ETC can situationally take their other heroic without getting funny looks.
Chen gets some play in Asia, so it's really just Stiches and Rexxar who appear to need some love (Artanis probably will see play).
Anyways, if Supports get the same treatment that would be awesome. So far Tyrande and Tassadar had successful reworks (I didn't think Tassadar's buff was enough to offset the Archon nerf, I was way off on that and how good Force Wall could be). The only fear though is if Uther needs to be nerfed to bring all supports inline, he just overshadows everyone else atm.
Edit: @Tenks, I forgot about that, and they gave him a special battle momentum that didn't effect Ancestral, which really weakens his niche as best-hps.
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Don't forget her level 20 20% attack speed and range. Issue is you have to stand still with super squishy Tyrande. Would be interesting to test if you can keep someone stun chained haha.
And they changed Rhegar some time ago and restricted his talent choices a bit with it, because a kind of must have heal talent blocks the more interesting talents. And to get the best of it you need to take other heal talents and you have a one build hero. And those don't work in professional play that well. Unless they are Kael who doesn't care and murders anyway.
But he turned from a melee Healer that can mount midfight and finish of heroes to a stands in the backline and spams Q healer. Before Rhegar was damn fun to play.
Ah well. Still sad about the no game editor. Wanted to make a map where you have to conquer spots and build up forts then. But such a map could take hours lol. Now I kinda want a map where one player starts as the overmind and one as adjutant and hey have control over all the buildings.
Guess I gotta do it in the Sc2 editor and then take over the Dota style market with my custom map.
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On October 30 2015 02:45 Wuster wrote:
Man, Warriors are in such a good place now. I didn't expect Diablo to see play, but he is does. I likewise didn't think Sanctification would see as much play as it is, but Tyrael has two viable heroic! Just like Leoric, Anub'arak and Arthas! Plus, Sonya / ETC can situationally take their other heroic without getting funny looks.
Chen gets some play in Asia, so it's really just Stiches and Rexxar who appear to need some love (Artanis probably will see play). Diablo is nuts vs some compositions. Diablo & ETC are so much fun to play and do a lot of work if you know when to draft them.
I doubt we'll see Artanis or Stitches, as both are on the weak side and don't improve in premade, but I'd expect to see a few Rexxars.
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Caldeum1977 Posts
Artanis is banned from BlizzCon or else I think we'd see a decent amount of him.
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On October 30 2015 02:50 FeyFey wrote:
Ah well. Still sad about the no game editor. Wanted to make a map where you have to conquer spots and build up forts then. But such a map could take hours lol. Now I kinda want a map where one player starts as the overmind and one as adjutant and hey have control over all the buildings.
Guess I gotta do it in the Sc2 editor and then take over the Dota style market with my custom map.
I desperately want a map that changes the normal minions fight, push fort -> keep -> core -> win. My original impression of Tomb was that turning in gems would buff your lane minions which would at least change the AI side of things.
On October 30 2015 02:58 Pwere wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 02:45 Wuster wrote:
Man, Warriors are in such a good place now. I didn't expect Diablo to see play, but he is does. I likewise didn't think Sanctification would see as much play as it is, but Tyrael has two viable heroic! Just like Leoric, Anub'arak and Arthas! Plus, Sonya / ETC can situationally take their other heroic without getting funny looks.
Chen gets some play in Asia, so it's really just Stiches and Rexxar who appear to need some love (Artanis probably will see play). Diablo is nuts vs some compositions. Diablo & ETC are so much fun to play and do a lot of work if you know when to draft them. I doubt we'll see Artanis or Stitches, as both are on the weak side and don't improve in premade, but I'd expect to see a few Rexxars.
I would love to see Rexxar, he has a ton of control so should have a niche but we just haven't seen it yet.
My thinking for Artanis is if nothing else he's a high-damage bruiser to compete with Sonya. Plus the wombo-potential with Purifier Beam is pretty good!
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Also it seems strange that the maps have no high/low ground
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On October 30 2015 03:00 Valiver wrote:
Artanis is banned from BlizzCon or else I think we'd see a decent amount of him.
I don't think he'd ever be picked in his current post-nerf form. He's never the best fit for any role on any map, imo. It doesn't help that his winrate goes down in diamond/master on HotsLogs, a very rare occurrence and a bad sign for competitive play.
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I think Purifier Beam on 20 will be sneak nerfed, as in it will pick a target that is more likely to dodge it if it kills one. Purifier Beam sounds neat against Abathur. But he just ults to dodge the beam. And Abathur can spam his ult, while Purifier beam has quite a cooldown.
I still prefer the other one as its one of the more spammable once. Use it top open the fight and give a bit of vision and if the fight goes on you might end up using it another time. But both are good, glad he is banned at Blizzcon though. I think he might need a lil adjustment, to make him less situational so his 20er ults don't have to be that insane.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 30 2015 02:45 Wuster wrote:
Anyways, if Supports get the same treatment that would be awesome. So far Tyrande and Tassadar had successful reworks (I didn't think Tassadar's buff was enough to offset the Archon nerf, I was way off on that and how good Force Wall could be). The only fear though is if Uther needs to be nerfed to bring all supports inline, he just overshadows everyone else atm.
Edit: @Tenks, I forgot about that, and they gave him a special battle momentum that didn't effect Ancestral, which really weakens his niche as best-hps.
I think a majority of Force Walls played in the tournament were a bit underwhelming, but if you look closely, there were a few that single-handedly won engagements for teams. The two big ones I remember were:
- C9 vs Dig Game 1 on Cursed Hollow. Dignitas manages to get a lead and pushes into C9's top keep. C9 plays cool and flexes with the pressure, then Force Wall captures Tyrande playing a bit too far forward. She gets melted, and the rest of the team disintegrates because they need the Hunter's Mark to effectively burst down heroes.
- C9 vs Dig Game 3 on Haunted Mines. Dig wins the second immortal and begins to push into C9's bot fort with a level lead (14 to 13, I believe). ETC slides forward with what looks like it could be a huge opportunity for Mosh Pit. The rest of the team moves forward to capitalize on it, but ETC gets polymorphed almost immediately and then a Force Wall comes down behind the team to trap Kael'Thas. The healing from Tranq isn't enough, and C9 dominates the fight to even up the score.
Still, as clutch as some of the Force Walls ended up being, I was more surprised at how strangely people were building him. If you watch my podcast on him, I believe that Leeching Plasma and Khala's Embrace are easily the best level 4+7 talents, especially since the extra buff on Tassadar's shield, but the pros took Mental Acuity and Static Charge all day, which confuses me greatly. Granted, a few of the games were played against Zeratul, but not all, so Mental Acuity seemed to be used solely for the purpose of having great map awareness. Static Charge, on the other hand, makes absolutely no sense at all without Archon since Force Wall Tassadar is meant to be entirely supportive. What confuses me even more is that everyone was taking Rewind at 20, which makes even less sense because Plasma Shield is up so often, you already have 3 escapes with E talents, and producing a "Second Strike" effect isn't absolutely incredible. I'm honestly really in the dark as to why pros are choosing these talents.
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Level 7 talents that rival static charge:
Mule: On a pro level where teams much more often focus buildings down at once instead of them being chipped away to destruction over time, it's not nearly as useful. Still usable as a more niche pick in maps / lineups where the building damage is less "bursty".
Deep Shift: +1.5 secs duration for dimensional shift. You don't want more length unless the enemy team is constantly diving on you and following you as you shift, as it disables you from doing what you need to do (supporting the team with spells). You usually want to pop this just to get the focus off you, even the 1.5 sec duration seems excessive at times, why would a pro-level team ever want their support to be "disabled" for an additional 1.5 secs for a total of 3 seconds with no support?
Khala's Embrace: While leaving 50% of the shields or pre-emptively casting them is a small boost, you don't want to be wasting mana on tassadar by casting your shield whenever you can just to leave 50% of it on someone. Even if you've picked mana talents. As tassadar you aim to mitigate the damage on whoever is being bursted down, and in a sense your goal is that whatever shields you cast either get used up, or they make the opponent refocus.
Static Charge: Checks and gives a charge on an opponent if they're not "marked", on every tick of the storm aoe (Which is fairly frequent). While it only applies to tassadar, it's a 75%+ damage increase for your basic attacks which is a significant boost. Especially with crowd control guaranteeing people to stay in storm while they're being hit = more charges going off.
I don't really understand why you think static charge is not viable without archon. It's still a significant damage boost as you want to be basic attacking enemies while supporting the team. The only advantage archon has over force wall regarding static charge is the increased attack range (only at L20), and the splash damage (if enemies are clumped up, you can consume multiple charges at once). While force wall's advantage is giving additional crowd control which also enables you to clump up enemies on your storm, re-applying the charge as it gets consumed by your basic attacks.
Do note that it's a fixed amount of damage the static charge gives, so the higher base damage of archon doesn't benefit from static charge. The 75%+ is just approximately the increase you'd get for a basic attack of that level. (Starts off closer to 80%, gets closer and closer to 75% as levels rise.)
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I tend to agree, Tassadar without Static Charge is such a wet noodle, unless you're pairing him with malf / tyrande you're giving up a lot of team-wide damage.
Previously you could get by with just waiting for Archon to deal your damage (nicely timed to when it matters - the team fight), but now you don't have that option.
Also, as we've seen lately Mule just isn't that popular, probably because the obvious counter is destroy the building in one go. As rotations have gotten more refined teams just haven't been going in without knowing they can take it down.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 30 2015 07:08 Wuster wrote:
I tend to agree, Tassadar without Static Charge is such a wet noodle, unless you're pairing him with malf / tyrande you're giving up a lot of team-wide damage.
Previously you could get by with just waiting for Archon to deal your damage (nicely timed to when it matters - the team fight), but now you don't have that option.
Also, as we've seen lately Mule just isn't that popular, probably because the obvious counter is destroy the building in one go. As rotations have gotten more refined teams just haven't been going in without knowing they can take it down.
There weren't any compositions that made sense for MULE yesterday anyway. Classically, we would see teams pick up MULE on a "secondary support" like Tassadar, Tyrande, or Abathur who could still focus on being damage heavy, but with now that Tass and Tyrande are primarily support-driven characters (at least in the games we saw yesterday), you're generally sacrificing a lot to get MULE. Not saying that your analysis is wrong, but I think there's also additional reasoning behind that.
On October 30 2015 06:57 Cephiro wrote:
I don't really understand why you think static charge is not viable without archon. It's still a significant damage boost as you want to be basic attacking enemies while supporting the team. The only advantage archon has over force wall regarding static charge is the increased attack range (only at L20), and the splash damage (if enemies are clumped up, you can consume multiple charges at once). While force wall's advantage is giving additional crowd control which also enables you to clump up enemies on your storm, re-applying the charge as it gets consumed by your basic attacks.
Do note that it's a fixed amount of damage the static charge gives, so the higher base damage of archon doesn't benefit from static charge. The 75%+ is just approximately the increase you'd get for a basic attack of that level. (Starts off closer to 80%, gets closer and closer to 75% as levels rise.)
So a few days ago I found a stats page for every hero, and Tassadar literally has the worst basic attack in the entire game aside from Abathur, Murky, and Stitches after level 20. So when I look at getting Static Charge to empower his basic attacks, it doesn't seem like a 20% increase really does much other than makes them not suck completely. Secondly, I'm convinced that Khala's Embrace is the best talent in the tier because of the extra shielding that you can put on a player. If you shield a player who already has the half shield from Khala's Embrace, you grant a total of 150% shield on that person (at level 20, this is a 1125 HP shield).
Watching the games from yesterday, all of the Tassadar supports were hoarding mana and sitting at 3/4-full mana almost the entire game, and shields are very cheap mana wise. I'm convinced that saving Plasma Shield for only when allies are being damaged is a mistake, and Tassadar players should be spamming Q every chance they get in the late game to mitigate probable incoming damage, dissuade dives, and build up Khala's Embrace shields on your teammates during down time.
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75%+*, not 20%.
I do see your point, I do agree it's a fairly good talent. However even with the new reduced cooldown, you'd still want to keep the shield cooldown available unless you're sure you won't be needing it in the next 5 seconds. You probably won't have much of a chance to shield all your team for a fight, but let's say you manage to stack it for at least 2 high-priority targets consistently.
We need to compare this extra shielding compared to what you'd have otherwise. If I'm not mistaken, shielded allies get a bonus +50% to the shielding amount, which would end up being (750*1.5)/2 = 562,5 extra damage points worth of shield.
Personally, I feel that a lot of the situations in high level games are decided by a single person being focused and caught out, the other team backing off if they can as 5v4 at that level of play is hard to overcome. So the comparison comes down to mitigating ~560 damage extra, or dealing (I'd say getting off 2 charged autos sounds reasonable?) ~230 damage extra. While purely numbers-wise shield definitely wins out, I'd argue that there is more damage available than there is healing in general.
When able to focus one person, is the 560 extra mitigation to change the outcome how often? I do think it's more significant in lower level games, but I feel like with the coordination of pro teams, it doesn't make enough of a difference to change the outcome of the situation. While I also agree that ~230 extra damage is also unlikely to be the burst required to make a difference, I think we need to look at some other key factors with the talents. That is, the level they are received on.
Level 7 is still fairly early in the game. Laning at this point is still extremely crucial. At level 7, while actively laning, I don't think you have chances of stacking up the shield very much. (Not to mention it's likely to be chipped away by minions as well as the enemy to a fair extent.)
Compare that to static charge however, you enable tassadar to laneclear more effectively (saving you from using a 2nd storm earlygame) and faster (enabling you to leave the lane to rotate for another nearby lane before the enemy hero is free, unless they want to give up the xp from that wave as an advantage for your team). Not to mention it also makes harassing your enemy in the lane much more potent.
If I had to guess, I think the pro teams value the early-game potential of static charge more than the late-game mitigation of the khala's embrace. After all, gaining a lead early on does put the team at a fairly sizeable advantage, whereas even if the strategy is tailored for late-game, it's always a challenge to survive until that point where it can start shining.
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Playing tassadar with the "old style" build is more effective than before and even without the changes he was still played. There is nothing to be confused about.
I do like leeching plasma and khala embrace, but just wanna say that oracle is still as good and static charge does the same damage as before. Archon only really affects the charge indirectly with the tankiness and range from twilight archon. Consuming the charge does the same extra dps without archon.
Tassadar with force wall is not meant to be entirely supportive, if you get static charge you can still do damage. Granted its not much but as a jack of all trades hero its part of his job imo.
The main problem with khala embrace is that you need conjurer's pursuit stacks otherwise you eat all of your mana, so its a late game build. Static charge and oracle give a faster reward.
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United States4883 Posts
Okay, so I did some math because I'm fucking obsessed and this is driving me crazy.
At level 7, Static Charge is an increase of 30% to your basic attacks. His level 7 damage with Static Charge is equivalent to the basic attacks of Nazeebo or Kael'Thas at around 96 DPS. At level 20, it is an increase of 45%. His damage with Static Charge is somewhere in between low and high damage auto attackers with ~264 DPS (Most tanks fall below 230 and heroes like Valla, Raynor, Illidan, and Zeratul all range 280+ What this means is that it's actually not that valuable early game, but drastically improves his DPS in the late game. That said, the extra ~120 extra damage per shot helps some for bursting things down, but very little when you think about bursting 5000+ HP down (0.02% of total) in the late game, especially since Static Charge is consumed after attacking.
But what about wave clear? I tested this out too. Static Charge does not significantly improve your clear speed compared to two storms until you get to level 9, which is when you can one-shot archer minions. This is an improvement on Tassadar without Static Charge, who needs until level 13 to be able to do the same. At level 17, Storm one-shots a minion wave. This is an important timing window between 9 and 13 when games are rotation heavy, and good ganks can decide the game, so the increased ability to wave clear has its perks.
I'll try it out in games since there may be a secret lying somewhere in here, but it still doesn't numerically make sense to me to take it if you're not going Archon.
Also, some minor points about shields. We were talking in the Shadowstalk thread about how significant the 840 healing done with Shadowstalk is (which I disagree with for an ult). Applying that concept here, I can't see how a 562.5 point shield on everyone on your team late game can be bad in comparison. Again, the second part of that is that you can shield on top of Khala's Embrace for up to an insane 150% shield to counter burst (to put it in perspective, it shields about as much damage a full Strafe does). As I said, you apply Khala shields in downtime, not during periods where you need to hold onto the 5 second cooldown for an ally, so the cooldown isn't an issue. Mana also isn't an issue post-13 with Conjurer's Pursuit. It's just good.
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Can I ask where you're pulling off the 30-45% figures from? As far as I know, static charge is an additional 28.5+4.5 damage on top of the basic attack which is 32+6. The growth stays at 75%, and the initial damage (which becomes less and less of a factor) is almost 90% extra. So if anything, it improves your damage more early in the game than late in the game? (%-wise, of course not fixed numberwise)
+ Show Spoiler +EDIT2: I guess comparing against a tick of the storm itself is fairly reasonable and would explain your numbers, but I do think it makes more sense to compare it as an increase over the basic attack, as the static charge itself doesn't do anything, it's basically "extra basic attack damage" for tassadar.
120 extra dmg per shot out of a 5000 is also 2.4%, not 0.02%... (Just getting confused as your values seem right but your percentages seem extremely off?)
I also still don't really understand why you value the archon/static charge combination so much. As mentioned before, at level 10 the only synergy between static charge and archon is the splash damage activating multiple charges at once (and to utilize that, you will need CC from your team to stack the enemies up, or to keep them in storm to refresh charges).
Wall on the other hand limits you to one target per auto attack, but it gives you additional CC to keep an enemy in storms with. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while it's often preferable to fully commit into a specific type of build, it's not always the case nor is there always a single best choice for a certain type of build.
As in, I personally see it's more like... Pick static charge -> Possibility of picking archon for a small extra synergy
But it seems you view it as Pick static charge only if going archon for the small extra synergy
While I agree that 560 point shield is a nice bit, you're never, ever going to get that off on everyone on your team. You'd require 25 seconds just for setting that up, and also for every member in your team avoiding damage for that duration of time. (Less for those who get shielded last.)
In high level games, some situations come down to seconds if not fractions of seconds. You can't rely on being able to having that extra shield to stack up on that often. Realistically even if you have good knowledge / vision of the enemy movements, you aren't going to be able to prepare for a teamfight that long. And while you talk about using the downtime, you naturally take damage as you do lesser objectives and push before the inevitable teamfight. As I mentioned before, I can realistically see having maybe 2 high-priority targets constantly shielded before teamfights happen if they don't get caught out.
You also have to think that khala's embrace in a sense can be outplayed. If the enemy team considers the extra 560p of shield too much of a threat, they can delay the engagement / diving in to your team, and just chip the damage off. Arguably due to the nature of damage/healing in the game, they will be able to chip the shields off faster than you can replenish them. In lower level games on the other hand even if you won't get focused as hard and the damage is more spread out, people won't be as good about keeping that extra shield up and running. But static charge isn't something you can really avoid. You try to avoid storms as is, but if you get hit you also take the stack. Which may force extra healing/shielding to be used and cause it to be on cooldown earlier than otherwise.
I do think both talents are very viable and have their place, but I don't think there's a clear cut superiority for one or the other except for specific situations. (For example in a dive-heavy composition, pre-stacking your diver with extra shields is very useful). I think it comes down to how you want to play your tassadar both as yourself, and as for what the team needs.
For me personally, I find static charge more useful in general, as I prefer the extra damage + the window of faster waveclear earlygame over the extra shielding lategame (also earlygame, but to an lesser extent due to the different nature of laning vs teamfighting as mentioned before). Also affected by the way I play tassadar (optimization-heavy, trying to focus on dealing damage / CCing or zoning the enemy team as much as possible until support is really needed), not to mention baiting players at low hp or with lower hp teammates is fun and then turning it around with shields + forcewall.
It has been an enjoyable discussion, though!
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Static charge is a lot of extra damage for a single talent, but his main damage is storm.
On lvl 20:
1 second (1 tick) of storm does 240
1 auto attack does 146 (speed is one per second)
1 static charge does 114
Its quite good for one lvl 7 talent.
Is this data accurate? something changed?
I took it from heroesnexus.
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On October 30 2015 02:33 Valiver wrote:
Tychus can get up to like 7.12 attacks per second with just his own stuff (Didn't do math, trying to remember number from a long time ago), so if you use all that on him.....
Tychus has max 6.80 aps alone (with Nexus Frenzy+warmed minigun)
Funny facts. Tychus deal 920 dps with AA. If you have 6.80 aps with Focused attack, Tychus attack TWICE with focused attack. Because Focused attack gives a 0.2 sec buff before your next attack. Having a Focused attack talent increases your dps to 1010.
I read somewhere if you have stim from morales + bloodlust from rehgar focused attack increases your dps by... %40!!! (for tychus only ofc 
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EPT
