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So I hate to be that guy but I'm new to the game and I just play, I haven't lurked on forums, much less posted there, and I have the definite feeling that they release new heroes OP to some extent (sometimes very OP, other times just slightly). This time around the monk has been fucking my shit while being hard to kill and healing a lot and often. Previously Leoric fucked my shit and while it's possible to adapt I think it's hard to argue that the new heroes are very strong.
Is there an general opinion about this? I feel like Blizzard's plan is (somewhat understandably?) to release heroes that are very strong and to subsequently nerf them after people have bought them for a rise. Or is that opinion frowned upon by the people who think blizzard can do no wrong?
I'm posting this at the risk of sounding whiny, because it has been 2 days now and Monk has made it really hard to get anything done around him. He's super good alone, even better in small groups, and a fucking monster in team fights, being excellent across the board with good speed, mobility, offensive and defensive capabilities... Why the fuck would anyone play something like Tyrande over him, the cons are too much. And it deals more damage than many assassins, too.
And if people don't find some kind of way to work around the very powerful new character, he'll be nerfed by the time the next very powerful hero gets released. Am I just a whining communist or?
Cheers 
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I've been playing the monk for a week now on PTR and a bunch of QM games yesterday.
The monk has weak burst heal outside of his ult, which is very difficult to land. He is also fairly squishy and prone to diving to the front line of fights--- a short stun and focus fire can wreck him pretty handily. Catching him alone is especially good--- if he doesn't have any allies behind him, he can not jump backwards.
As far as new characters being very good, I think it would be more accurate to say that new characters haven't been very bad for a while. Butcher felt about right in terms of quality--- once you know his mini-game, he's fairly easy to counter. But every new hero will have a big advantage in being obscure to a large number of players. In the monk's case, for instance--- allies in my games frequently don't even know that I have divine palm, and are surprised when they don't die. Some smart enemies even know how to stop attacking for a few seconds in order to secure kills that would otherwise be saved by palm.
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Also, I don't think most monk players out there are used to playing support, or don't know how to leverage their w properly. I've been routinely doing 20k more healing in all QM games I play than the monk on the other team, even when they are taking all the same healing talents I am. This might explain the character's current relatively low win-rate across almost all leagues in hotslogs.
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On August 20 2015 01:38 MotherFox wrote:
Also, I don't think most monk players out there are used to playing support, or don't know how to leverage their w properly. I've been routinely doing 20k more healing in all QM games I play than the monk on the other team, even when they are taking all the same healing talents I am.
May be true, may not be true. It's really hard to top those healing numbers when your teammate decides to die in a global or 2. Same goes for damage and tanking numbers, sure you may have done a lot of damage, but no one really cares if it was some poke that got shrugged off etc.
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On August 20 2015 01:42 Slayer92 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 01:38 MotherFox wrote:
Also, I don't think most monk players out there are used to playing support, or don't know how to leverage their w properly. I've been routinely doing 20k more healing in all QM games I play than the monk on the other team, even when they are taking all the same healing talents I am. May be true, may not be true. It's really hard to top those healing numbers when your teammate decides to die in a global or 2. Same goes for damage and tanking numbers, sure you may have done a lot of damage, but no one really cares if it was some poke that got shrugged off etc.
Nothing more frustrating than playing support with bad players. I never know how to try and carry--- I guess with the monk I at least have solo gank options, unlike most other supports.
As far as non-useful healing, I feel like the main category of this is supports who heal when someone is out of mana//obviously going to hearth soon. Unless you are saving their life, the only thing you are doing is boosting your stats while wasting resources. I suspect the healing gap between me and other monks is that I've seen lots of monks trying to go it solo, and that 20k probably is the difference between healing just themselves most of the time and healing yourself AND a teammate or two.
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Observations so far:
Pyroblast didn't seem good in bot games. The extra cast range is nice, but 2 seconds to cast is still a long time, it would often cancel against an opponent that was running away, or if they're moving forward they get dangerously close in those 2 seconds. The zoning and damage of phoenix is still awesome and better. Also there's still several things that nullify pyroblast.
Merc lord, seems a touch weak, still needs testing though. The loss of tower resistance makes it much weaker as a backdoor tool. It really requires a different playstyle than normal. Normally the plan with mercs is more often to release them and rely on their pressure to keep the enemy busy while you take objectives elsewhere. With this you really have to be pushing with them to get value; but if you have a local disadvantage in number of heroes, the mercs dont' provide enough cover to keep you alive, and there's still a lot of high damage heroes around that can clear mercs pretty fast.
The Raynor changes definitely shift things around a fair bit, will take awhile to see how they shake out due to the subtlety. Good fun so far.
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On August 20 2015 01:22 Djzapz wrote:So I hate to be that guy but I'm new to the game and I just play, I haven't lurked on forums, much less posted there, and I have the definite feeling that they release new heroes OP to some extent (sometimes very OP, other times just slightly). This time around the monk has been fucking my shit while being hard to kill and healing a lot and often. Previously Leoric fucked my shit and while it's possible to adapt I think it's hard to argue that the new heroes are very strong. Is there an general opinion about this? I feel like Blizzard's plan is (somewhat understandably?) to release heroes that are very strong and to subsequently nerf them after people have bought them for a rise. Or is that opinion frowned upon by the people who think blizzard can do no wrong? I'm posting this at the risk of sounding whiny, because it has been 2 days now and Monk has made it really hard to get anything done around him. He's super good alone, even better in small groups, and a fucking monster in team fights, being excellent across the board with good speed, mobility, offensive and defensive capabilities... Why the fuck would anyone play something like Tyrande over him, the cons are too much. And it deals more damage than many assassins, too. And if people don't find some kind of way to work around the very powerful new character, he'll be nerfed by the time the next very powerful hero gets released. Am I just a whining communist or? Cheers
I think what MotherFox said is closer to the truth. If a hero's viable, then when it's released everyone has to adapt. That gives the hero an advantage that might not hold up (see Thrall, although he was also nerfed, some people found him manageable even before that though).
I started playing when Jaina was released and she was not considered very good then (if you get a chance to look at builds people have been using with her, it's changed drastically over time; plus she got a pretty big buff in between). It was also when Azmodan and Anub'arak were still new and not considered particularly good (other than people crying about Azmodan's unstoppable push power).
Now, KT and TLV were definitely overpowered on release, so I can see why people think Blizzard is releasing OP heroes (to be fair, Blizzard said time and time again they suspected TLV were going to need nerfs, but their skill cap was too high to reach in internal testing).
As for the Monk, I think once you realize he has no AoE, no CC, no team buffs/debuffs (say Tyrande's Hunter's Mark or Trueshot Aura) and a very low hp pool that he really does have downsides. I've been playing the Monk this week and been experimenting trying to figure out which characters I can duel and which ones I can't. I really have no idea and neither do most people. So we're all just committing to fights without knowing what to expect. It seems premature to base his power level off that, even if some of those fights turn out one-sided for the Monk.
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Alright then, I'll keep an open mind. Was harder though when Leoric was released, he'd just die in our base and destroy forts and there's nothing we could do about it. And then he was also doing a shitload of damage while tanking like a pro... workarounds were a lot harder than just playing that setup, anyway at my level.
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Leoric on release also had some bug issues, like he could do % damage/heal to dragon knights and garden terrors.
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Well Kerrigan is fun again, the trait talents are quite solid when put together.
The lvl 7 talent helps a lot with mana regen, lvl 13 allows you to start building up shields and lvl 16 doubles the amount you get. One combo on a creep wave at 16 and you're nearly at full shields, which equals to 5.8k health total (2.2k shields) at lvl 20. Having a Kharazim next to you also really helps.
Also managed to win a 1v1 against Valla who threw everything at me and I managed to barely scrap out a win thanks to all the shields I was getting from whacking her.
I don't really get Queen's Rush though. It's only 25% (compared to 75% from Sprint) and although it activates on a takedown, how helpful is that really? If a hero is weak enough to chase, you could always Ravage to them and with only 25% it doesn't really do all that much.
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On August 20 2015 04:14 Thezzy wrote:
I don't really get Queen's Rush though. It's only 25% (compared to 75% from Sprint) and although it activates on a takedown, how helpful is that really? If a hero is weak enough to chase, you could always Ravage to them and with only 25% it doesn't really do all that much.
Yeah, I've found Queen's Rush to be a really lackluster talent, some other choices at that tier are definitely better.
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I think Djzapz is right. Of course the Butcher had weaknesses, a melee assassin with that much potential couldn't work without some solid way to counter play. And he was the weakest hero released since Open beta.
Butcher was about right while Johanna, Jaina (specially after the chill on structures patch), Leoric, Lost Vikings and Kaelthas used to be or still are too strong.
Blizzard mentioned they are not scared to release powerful abilities since they can fix later. This is great because it allows them to push the limits of the gameplay. But at this point im pretty sure they are not even trying to release the heroes in a balanced state. They are probably trying to release each hero very strong to boost sales. They can just nerf broken stuff later.
Sylvanas and butcher, the most balanced hero releases since open beta, were above average, all others were too strong (nerfing them makes the game better). Ideally all heroes are released in a balanced state, but i don't think its a big deal, there are even some good gameplay points to release them strong. New heroes must be picked and tested, if they miss the balance bar to the weak side nobody buys them and thus nobody plays them and they are never showcased by pros (i even uderstand why they don't tell us that).
However i think its too early to ask why you ever pick Tyrande. I don't think thats the case, she is quite good herself and quite different wich makes it hard to compare.
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Yeah, I wouldn't compare the monk to tyrande--- the monk's healing is quite a bit better, and tyrande's ability to amp damage and do a ranged stun is phenomenal.
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You know, he's actually almost more comparable to rehgar. With one target the monk's w heals more than rehgar's q does with 2 targets at most levels.
All Rehgar's numbers are for himself plus two targets. I'm assuming a build of SWG/feral heart/earth shield/ancestral/healing surge/tidal waves/storm shield
All Monk's numbers are for himself plus one adjacent teammate. (breath of heaven) I'm assuming the build I've been using in QM with great success: trans/lvl 4 flex/echo of heaven/divine palm/ lvl13 flex /circle of life/storm shield
level 1:
Rehgar- 20 + 6.2 per level (per second) (2 targets + rehgar)
Monk- 32.5+44 per level (per second) (1 target + monk himself)
level 7: (Monk takes echo of heaven)
Monk increases to 48.75 + 8.25 per level (per second)
level 13: Rehgar takes healing surge (at this point I assume rehgar can hit with all three healing bounces)
rehgar increases to 27.5 + 8.5 per level (per second)
level 16: rehgar takes tidal waves, monk takes circle of life
rehgar increases to 41.25 + 12.8333 per level (per second)
monk increases to 55.25 + 9.35 per level (per second)
So Rehgar doesn't really catch up on healing until level 16. And I think these numbers are pretty slanted towards rehgar: he won't always have two or three targets for healing, and the monk certainly won't always have only one other teammate near him for healing.
It's not quite as clean cut as this obviously--- ancestral is much easier to use than divine palm in general, though maybe in some circumstances divine palm is easier. But in general on paper it seems like the monk outheals one of the best healers in the game? I didn't even take into account transcendence, which may or may not heal a significant amount depending on how much you get zoned out of combat.
edit-> I also overlooked earth shield vs protective shield/healing ward. Obviously earth shield has a ton more damage soaking over time, but this is a difficult thing to compare since the shields on earth shield won't be in use all the time. I'm not sure how to directly compare them.
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The new Hammer is really powerful o.0 Hurts like a motherfucker.
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On August 20 2015 06:11 MotherFox wrote:
You know, he's actually almost more comparable to rehgar. With one target the monk's w heals more than rehgar's q does with 2 targets at most levels.
All Rehgar's numbers are for himself plus two targets. I'm assuming a build of SWG/feral heart/earth shield/ancestral/healing surge/tidal waves/storm shield
All Monk's numbers are for himself plus one adjacent teammate. (breath of heaven) I'm assuming the build I've been using in QM with great success: trans/lvl 4 flex/echo of heaven/divine palm/ lvl13 flex /circle of life/storm shield
level 1:
Rehgar- 20 + 6.2 per level (per second) (2 targets + rehgar)
Monk- 32.5+44 per level (per second) (1 target + monk himself)
level 7: (Monk takes echo of heaven)
Monk increases to 48.75 + 8.25 per level (per second)
level 13: Rehgar takes healing surge (at this point I assume rehgar can hit with all three healing bounces)
rehgar increases to 27.5 + 8.5 per level (per second)
level 16: rehgar takes tidal waves, monk takes circle of life
rehgar increases to 41.25 + 12.8333 per level (per second)
monk increases to 55.25 + 9.35 per level (per second)
So Rehgar doesn't really catch up on healing until level 16. And I think these numbers are pretty slanted towards rehgar: he won't always have two or three targets for healing, and the monk certainly won't always have only one other teammate near him for healing.
It's not quite as clean cut as this obviously--- ancestral is much easier to use than divine palm in general, though maybe in some circumstances divine palm is easier. But in general on paper it seems like the monk outheals one of the best healers in the game? I didn't even take into account transcendence, which may or may not heal a significant amount depending on how much you get zoned out of combat.
edit-> I also overlooked earth shield vs protective shield/healing ward. Obviously earth shield has a ton more damage soaking over time, but this is a difficult thing to compare since the shields on earth shield won't be in use all the time. I'm not sure how to directly compare them.
Monk does seem like a better version of rehgar yes although it has to be said rehgar's heal is much less likely to be wasted. Kharazim always heals himself and typically just 1 ally while rehgar has much nicer range on him and can do good healing even if he is full himself.
Ancestral healing is also much better than divine palm i feel. Both have tricky timing issues, ancestral is oftne too late, divine palm often too early. Perhaps divine palm is a bit easier to time even. However Divine palm heals far less (600 +140*level vs 500+100*level) and divine palm has that stupid ~2 second statis after it's used. On the retreat for example divine palm can be goddamn awful as the one you save is stuck and often immediately killed again afterwards. And on offense it often puts your damage dealer out of action and let's them retreat plus or hit good combo's afterwards.
Sevensided strike is the choice for monk I feel because of these limitations of divine palm, it often does lackluster damage as people tend to use it in teamfights and just do spread out damage which is consequently healed very easily. But if you position properly (and have allies land a stun) you can aim to hit just 1 or 2 guys and then it's great. Plus it's a nice saving tool, if you get focussed you can just activate it very nice to prevent incoming combo's.
Overall kharazim seems to heal more than monk and do more damage but he has worse waveclear and less cc (although that of rehgar is terrible too). Rehgar has better single target heal though if you really need to keep something alive but overall I think monk is better and probably top support now along with malf who is least hurt by the cleanse nerf.
One tricky thing though, because kharazim is useless for ganking and has terrible waveclear i think you really want to go 3-1-1 with him often. He is very powerful early in a push comp as his early healing is very high and he really wants to pair up in lane, whereas rehgar and malf can solo hold a lane much better.
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Oops-- I was going from heroesfire, which says palm does 600+100/lvl. That's why I thought they had practically the same healing.
It does end up being kind of the same, except on tanks.
I agree wholeheartedly on the waveclear point--- khar has very poor waveclear. Malf is probably best on this count(moonburn is pretty good).
Overall this makes me pleased with khar, though. He has a good array of abilities with good opportunity costs over the other supports.
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Kharazim seems ok at ganking because his E is a ton of burst (especially on a CC-ed target) and his Q lets you follow-up on escape attempts and jump in from out of vision.
I was playing with a Kerrigan yesterday and anytime I saw her land combo I could instantly jump in and unload. Got a lot of ganks like that, but any assassin could. I guess the real value is gaining that potential from the support spot (but even Uther / Tyrande can chain-CC and let Kerrigan do the job herself). I'll just say he's not gimped when it comes to roaming... now waveclear, that's just painful. Especially annoying since Deadly Reach / Way of the Hundred Fists are aoe attacks in D3.
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I think more specifically, kharazim has chase. Like, if a fight is ending and someone is slinking away behind a fort with a sliver of life, kharazim can easily get in, finish the guy, and get out. Neither malf nor rehgar can do that very safely.
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After 4 QM games all with 2 monks I cant wait to finally get healed by one.
I feel for ranged DDs in QM its best to spec like you have no healer for a few days.
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EPT
