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On November 11 2013 18:18 Shellshock wrote:
Sounds interesting with the change to the style of game. I think they definitely needed to try something different to break into the MOBA scene since they are just starting so far behind LoL and Dota at this point. Hope it works out and then we can see a variety of games.
I don't think they needed to do something different, I think just having the characters of Wacraft and Starcraft alone will help them get the players they need to succeed partially. But I'd rather have them experiment with something different than copying other games 1 to 1 ofc.
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On November 12 2013 02:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 01:52 Quotidian wrote:On November 11 2013 19:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 11 2013 18:14 Technique wrote:
Should have made wc4 instead.
Doesn't require the same amount of resources. The team that WOULD be making warcraft 4 is still working on Starcraft 2. Ever wonder why it took them over 10 years to make a sequel to Brood War? Warcraft 3 is why. Blizzard only has one RTS team. the team that's making HOTS is also the same team that is currently working on SC2.. if anything, they are diverting resources away from LOTV. Also, the reason they take so long on projects is oftentimes mismanagement in the name of "polish." I mean, there's no reason SC2 should've taken so long as it did, considering how unbalanced and unpolished the product was at launch.. and there have been leaks and stories about how they started over on SC2, scrapping months and months of development. Heroes has taken 2-3 years at this point.. for a small, side-project, it's already taken longer than many fully fledged triple A products take to make. Blizzard doesn't release half assed products. Also the since they are making the D3 expansion, LotV might not be in full gear. I don't think they are taking people away from LotV to work on Heroes and there is no proof that they are doing that. I get the impression that it was a map that has slowly evolved into a full game they might release with all the bells and whistles that something like Hearthstone has.
they have one team called Team One, working on all SC2 products, and Heroes is under that umbrella. Browder is the design lead on both games. Considering the original timetable they had for a game essentially divided up into three products (WOL+ expansions) it's obvious they are taking resources away from completing on time (and managing correctly) in order to meander off in another, unrelated direction.
Also, WOL multiplayer was extremely half-assed on release, as was the entirety of D3. Blizzard absolutely does release half-assed products, and it seems to be occurring more frequently
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On November 12 2013 04:56 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 02:11 Plansix wrote:On November 12 2013 01:52 Quotidian wrote:On November 11 2013 19:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 11 2013 18:14 Technique wrote:
Should have made wc4 instead.
Doesn't require the same amount of resources. The team that WOULD be making warcraft 4 is still working on Starcraft 2. Ever wonder why it took them over 10 years to make a sequel to Brood War? Warcraft 3 is why. Blizzard only has one RTS team. the team that's making HOTS is also the same team that is currently working on SC2.. if anything, they are diverting resources away from LOTV. Also, the reason they take so long on projects is oftentimes mismanagement in the name of "polish." I mean, there's no reason SC2 should've taken so long as it did, considering how unbalanced and unpolished the product was at launch.. and there have been leaks and stories about how they started over on SC2, scrapping months and months of development. Heroes has taken 2-3 years at this point.. for a small, side-project, it's already taken longer than many fully fledged triple A products take to make. Blizzard doesn't release half assed products. Also the since they are making the D3 expansion, LotV might not be in full gear. I don't think they are taking people away from LotV to work on Heroes and there is no proof that they are doing that. I get the impression that it was a map that has slowly evolved into a full game they might release with all the bells and whistles that something like Hearthstone has. they have one team called Team One, working on all SC2 products, and Heroes is under that umbrella. Browder is the design lead on both games. Considering the original timetable they had for a game essentially divided up into three products (WOL+ expansions) it's obvious they are taking resources away from completing on time (and managing correctly) in order to meander off in another, unrelated direction. Also, WOL multiplayer was extremely half-assed on release, as was the entirety of D3. Blizzard absolutely does release half-assed products, and it seems to be occurring more frequently
I personally thought both WoL and D3 were great and very high quality. And I don't think LotV is being worked on right now, from quotes from Nony in other thread and the way that Blizzard seems to work. I am not really worried about a drop quality in LotV at all.
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On November 11 2013 10:25 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2013 09:54 Plansix wrote:On November 11 2013 09:17 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 08:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 11 2013 08:03 Ravomat wrote:On November 11 2013 07:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 11 2013 07:22 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 06:49 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 11 2013 06:24 Shiori wrote:It has the glamour that accompanies every Blizzard game. There are iconic characters, interesting level designs, and good voice acting. But the gameplay itself doesn't look that inspired or compelling. It's not so much that "different" is "bad" as it is that most of the differences I see here (versus games like LoL/DotA2, of course) seem to only exist for the sake of being different. There doesn't seem to be any real reason for a lot of these things. It's almost like they decided they wanted to make a snappy, faster MOBA, then brainstormed "what did Dota/LoL not do?" and went from there. To me, it just feels like they're innovating in reverse. You don't start by saying "we need to make a MOBA game now let's find some ways to innovate it so people buy it" (which is how this project felt to me from day one; again, my opinion only). You start by saying "here's a really awesome/innovative idea for a game! Let's make it!" And while I'm not saying that HotS won't be innovative at all, it doesn't really seem like this game actually needs to exist. I mean, what is it trying to bring to the table that DotA/LoL haven't already provided? 20 minute games? Doing the opposite of DotA/LoL when it comes to last-hitting/items etc? My fundamental problem with HotS is and has always been that it just looks/seems/feels so disorganized. I can't tell what they're actually trying to do here, nor why we need another MOBA game when there are already two (fairly new and dramatically evolving) titans. In order for such a thing to make sense to me, there needs to be some real passion or focus behind the game. This just feels like Mario Party but with Blizzard characters, which, while fun, certainly, doesn't really excite me. [quote]
It's about perfectly last hitting while also playing your lane properly, harassing, pulling back, and so on. It's like in Sc2: any reasonably competent player can get to a high level in Marine Split challenge if they grind it for a few hours, but the people who are considered micro gods are the ones who can do insane things on the spot, without preparation, without expecting anything, and without ignoring everything else going on in the game. Same thing applies to most stuff in Dota/LoL. "and so on", i see.. You cant even name real differences cause they arent there, haha. They take lasthits away, yes, but what else is so more skillfull in other mobas? I dont see it, in hots you have to use different strategies based on the map (i think and guess thats the whole point here..), in lol and dota it is always the same map, i think that is more simple, no? As i said before, i see no reason why other mobas are so more skillfull, they just snowball harder and waste your time. (it is a pain in the ass to know the winner after 15 mins but have to play for another 15-30 mins cause the map is big) I think hots is way less snowbally and that alone is the reason why i look forwards to it and think it would be way more interesting to watch aswell I really hope you're joking.... The laning phase is about using your skill to keep up farm, reduce opponent's farm, freeze the lane, and keep safely avoid ganks. Heroes will take away basically everything interesting about MOBA games before 30+ minutes - it's a total joke. Global exp, no items, no wards, and gimmick jungle + turret mechanics do not make a good game. Global exp is ridiculous because suddenly ganks are useless before you get strong enough to take turrets - you don't slow down leveling, and there's no items so nothing else matters in the game. It will probably just be a farmfest for ~15 minutes and then everybody max levels at the same time and groups up and teamfights. It's an entirely artificial game that just supports the same deathball disease that pervades sc2 toss. Any sort of risk is unnecessary because there are no mechanics outside of levels. The smartest way to play is to just afk farm a lane until you max and then group, yolo at the enemy, and whoever wins that fight wins the game. No reason on earth to leave lane except to take a merc camp, and, again, those are only useful if you're sure you can kill towers, which means that 2-3 enemy heroes have to be dead, which would only happen if the enemy team is stupid and decides to not afk farm->group. You won't play unnecessarily 15 minutes after the winner is decided - you'll play 15 unnecessary minutes of farming and then have a teamfight and then the game will be over. There's no snowball period, which is absolutely stupid game design. No advantage to the winner of lane phase, because there is no winner, because creeps will inevitably die, and that means everyone gets experience even if they're dead and there's no items so someone on the enemy team being dead is worthless if the other 4 are alive. As it is it's a waste of time. Should just be "here's a max level hero with a few customization options, teamfight and then take towers, glhf" if blizzard insists on no gold/items/global exp, because that's already the optimal way to play. People like you are also a pain in the ass to argue with, cause they dont even have any clue about the subject, but think they do, thats pretty annoying.. As i said i dont know much about dota2, but in lol pretty much all the lanes are extremely stale if nobody ganks there. Competitive gaming will always be as safe as possible... Hots just doesnt care about this concept and tries to encourage teamfight based on different objectives on DIFFERENT maps. There is no point in "only farming" cause you dont get an advantage, you need to do the different quests on the maps to get closer to winning. And guess what, that exactly will encourage teamfights. If you think laning phase is interesting, well i just dont know.. If you had watched the games they played at blizzcon you would know that there is a lot of action and teamfights, cause the game is designed that way. Global experience allows blizzard to make heroes that wouldnt be viable in any other moba (for example no auto attacks), so i think they can add a variety of champs that you will never see in lol and maybe even in dota2. So yeah keep on hating and pretending you get what they do, but in reality you really dont, you are just a hater.. You just ignored half of his post, well done. We get it, you don't like laning, but that doesn't mean that there is no depth to it and thus interesting. You were worried about snowballing. This game could actually snowball a lot harder than DotA and LoL, if your team dies while doing an objective, because obviously you're dead and the opponent gets the exp and objective. Though of course that is impossible to judge at this point. I'm just not sure if this slugfest type of gameplay is going to be fun after a week or two. Their seems to be very little to think about. Maybe the fact that they've smartly given the mapmaking process to the community will help out. Too bad they didn't adopt this stance for SC2 and re-introduced Star Station when their was a map contest just happening. Yeah so much depht in having the better hero for zoning and thus forcing a gank there, instead of fighting over actuall objectives. What exactly did i ignore? All he says is that he thinks this game will be about lvling to max and then push, there is literally nothing else this guy added. It could be that this game snowballs, but no items are a big factor against snowballing. I think that is pretty easy to understand. That's such a simplified view of laning/ganking..... so i'm just gonna stop arguing about it. Let's just say there's a lot more complexity then you seem to be aware of in lane/gank phase. While no items does prevent snowballing, global exp is essentially an extremely volatile mechanic to try and ensure there's no snowball. One or two kills won't mean anything as long as the other team can still farm, but, let's say you're 3 minutes in and you wipe the entire enemy team - suddenly you have 5 people farming exp compared to 0 (unless you just auto-get exp whenever enemy minions die, which would be even more awful), and it gives you a big advantage when the other team revives because they will be pretty far behind when they revive and then it should be simplicity to force them out of lane repeatedly and win the game. I'll reiterate why I think the global exp/no items is bad game design, because I didn't express myself well and I was upset at how dumb it sounded when I first read the whole global exp thing. GE/NI means advantages are either basically meaningless or too huge to overcome. Early teamwipes are going to be absolutely devastating, but late teamwipes will be essentially useless. After people max out on levels, teamfights gain you no advantage except tower kills - when the enemy team revives, you will be just as even as you were before the teamfight, except they have one-two less towers. Taking stone zealot gets you another tower or two. Hey look the other team is still max level, let's hope we don't mess up this teamfight because we don't actually have an advantage over them, but even if we do mess up we still have (x) towers left to try again. It's my big problem with how this game sounds. It feels like it's just a gimmick to ensure no snowball unless it's a gigantic advantage (early teamwipe), backed up by arcade-y maps with more gimmicky objectives/maps to force teamfights. If they had just made a regular MOBA with this style of game as a different mode or something, that would've been neat, but this being the whole game just feels weak to me. It screams "WE NEED TO BE DIFFERENT SOMEHOW ADSFSKDFSDKF" instead of going for a solid basic design and then adding on nifty features on top of that. On November 11 2013 09:09 ssxsilver wrote:On November 11 2013 08:05 Godwrath wrote:On November 11 2013 07:41 ssxsilver wrote:
The huge focus on PvE also worries me. Anyone else feel that the teamfights in the showmatch felt forced? Take the haunted mine map, it seems way more productive to get a bigger skull giant or more siege spawns than actually winning fights. That would actually encourage you to take teamfights to get the minions. Dragon, Baron and jungle are no different in lol for example. You teamfight for the buffs/cash, which are at the end, in game advantadges. How much of LoL is actual team-fighting though? I'm not a huge moba viewer by any means, but my impression of LoL is that it's a much, much slower paced game than DotA/HoN. The times I do catch a stream, it's like 20 minutes in and single digit kill counts. Without smoke, TP scrolls, and with the prevalence of wards (which is actually getting patched to make vision more limited and require more teamwork to obtain), LoL's early game is a lot less action-y then DotA. However, after a certain point it becomes a lot more teamfight than what i've seen of DotA - splitpush is limited to one lane and everyone else is usually grouped or close, and the gameplay is a lot more focused on taking towers, dragon, baron, getting vision etc. Does the world really need another hardcore, farm based moba? Is is really a shame to try something different? Can we really know the meta game before it is released? Global XP and gold is not bad game design, its a design choice. This game is about 20 minutes of fun trying to spawn siege minions, rather than building building up items and snowballing out of control. Personally, I am glad that Blizzard is making a game that will be fun for everyone. If I want hard core games, I play Dota 2. I don't mean to come across as OMGITSNOTDOTAORLOLMURDERIT, it's just frustrating to me that they don't even have to option of a more normal moba, especially when that's how they originally showcased it >.> I quite enjoy playing casually, but I just feel like if blizzard are really trying to make this a standalone game they should start with a more solid style of gameplay and added the sillier maps/modes afterwards. Riot added things like ARAM/Dominion, 5x vs 5y is being added, but they started with basic 5v5. Also, total nonrelated aside - why do none of these games have X hero siege modes T_T
I can see where you're coming from, but I mean, if you want the more normal moba type, play dota/lol. I understand what you're saying, and yeah it'd be kinda fun playing a normal moba with blizzard characters, but I'd much rather they spend their time doing the random fun stuff they're doing now. If it means I might get another 5 blizzard characters or 4 more maps at launch, then I'll gladly give up the normal moba option.
We can always make those mobas in the map editor, remember.
As for the competition aspect everyone's clamoring about, I don't think it's going to be professionally competitive, I just have that feeling. HOWEVER, I will be the first to admit that the way they're going about it right now is the way to create a truly great esport. They didn't throw money at broodwar to turn it into an eSport, they let it be, balanced it a bit, and it caught on. I think that if this game becomes a popular eSport, it will become an extremely potent one by it's take on competition alone.
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On November 12 2013 05:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 04:56 Quotidian wrote:On November 12 2013 02:11 Plansix wrote:On November 12 2013 01:52 Quotidian wrote:On November 11 2013 19:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 11 2013 18:14 Technique wrote:
Should have made wc4 instead.
Doesn't require the same amount of resources. The team that WOULD be making warcraft 4 is still working on Starcraft 2. Ever wonder why it took them over 10 years to make a sequel to Brood War? Warcraft 3 is why. Blizzard only has one RTS team. the team that's making HOTS is also the same team that is currently working on SC2.. if anything, they are diverting resources away from LOTV. Also, the reason they take so long on projects is oftentimes mismanagement in the name of "polish." I mean, there's no reason SC2 should've taken so long as it did, considering how unbalanced and unpolished the product was at launch.. and there have been leaks and stories about how they started over on SC2, scrapping months and months of development. Heroes has taken 2-3 years at this point.. for a small, side-project, it's already taken longer than many fully fledged triple A products take to make. Blizzard doesn't release half assed products. Also the since they are making the D3 expansion, LotV might not be in full gear. I don't think they are taking people away from LotV to work on Heroes and there is no proof that they are doing that. I get the impression that it was a map that has slowly evolved into a full game they might release with all the bells and whistles that something like Hearthstone has. they have one team called Team One, working on all SC2 products, and Heroes is under that umbrella. Browder is the design lead on both games. Considering the original timetable they had for a game essentially divided up into three products (WOL+ expansions) it's obvious they are taking resources away from completing on time (and managing correctly) in order to meander off in another, unrelated direction. Also, WOL multiplayer was extremely half-assed on release, as was the entirety of D3. Blizzard absolutely does release half-assed products, and it seems to be occurring more frequently I personally thought both WoL and D3 were great and very high quality. And I don't think LotV is being worked on right now, from quotes from Nony in other thread and the way that Blizzard seems to work. I am not really worried about a drop quality in LotV at all.
nony quote, pls?
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8748 Posts
On November 12 2013 05:46 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 05:04 Plansix wrote:On November 12 2013 04:56 Quotidian wrote:On November 12 2013 02:11 Plansix wrote:On November 12 2013 01:52 Quotidian wrote:On November 11 2013 19:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 11 2013 18:14 Technique wrote:
Should have made wc4 instead.
Doesn't require the same amount of resources. The team that WOULD be making warcraft 4 is still working on Starcraft 2. Ever wonder why it took them over 10 years to make a sequel to Brood War? Warcraft 3 is why. Blizzard only has one RTS team. the team that's making HOTS is also the same team that is currently working on SC2.. if anything, they are diverting resources away from LOTV. Also, the reason they take so long on projects is oftentimes mismanagement in the name of "polish." I mean, there's no reason SC2 should've taken so long as it did, considering how unbalanced and unpolished the product was at launch.. and there have been leaks and stories about how they started over on SC2, scrapping months and months of development. Heroes has taken 2-3 years at this point.. for a small, side-project, it's already taken longer than many fully fledged triple A products take to make. Blizzard doesn't release half assed products. Also the since they are making the D3 expansion, LotV might not be in full gear. I don't think they are taking people away from LotV to work on Heroes and there is no proof that they are doing that. I get the impression that it was a map that has slowly evolved into a full game they might release with all the bells and whistles that something like Hearthstone has. they have one team called Team One, working on all SC2 products, and Heroes is under that umbrella. Browder is the design lead on both games. Considering the original timetable they had for a game essentially divided up into three products (WOL+ expansions) it's obvious they are taking resources away from completing on time (and managing correctly) in order to meander off in another, unrelated direction. Also, WOL multiplayer was extremely half-assed on release, as was the entirety of D3. Blizzard absolutely does release half-assed products, and it seems to be occurring more frequently I personally thought both WoL and D3 were great and very high quality. And I don't think LotV is being worked on right now, from quotes from Nony in other thread and the way that Blizzard seems to work. I am not really worried about a drop quality in LotV at all. nony quote, pls?
Just said there was zero mention of LotV at BlizzCon and the "StarCraft Update" panel even had no mention of it. They're just doing business as usual.
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On November 12 2013 05:37 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2013 10:25 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 09:54 Plansix wrote:On November 11 2013 09:17 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 08:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 11 2013 08:03 Ravomat wrote:On November 11 2013 07:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 11 2013 07:22 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 06:49 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 11 2013 06:24 Shiori wrote:
It has the glamour that accompanies every Blizzard game. There are iconic characters, interesting level designs, and good voice acting. But the gameplay itself doesn't look that inspired or compelling. It's not so much that "different" is "bad" as it is that most of the differences I see here (versus games like LoL/DotA2, of course) seem to only exist for the sake of being different. There doesn't seem to be any real reason for a lot of these things. It's almost like they decided they wanted to make a snappy, faster MOBA, then brainstormed "what did Dota/LoL not do?" and went from there. To me, it just feels like they're innovating in reverse. You don't start by saying "we need to make a MOBA game now let's find some ways to innovate it so people buy it" (which is how this project felt to me from day one; again, my opinion only). You start by saying "here's a really awesome/innovative idea for a game! Let's make it!"
And while I'm not saying that HotS won't be innovative at all, it doesn't really seem like this game actually needs to exist. I mean, what is it trying to bring to the table that DotA/LoL haven't already provided? 20 minute games? Doing the opposite of DotA/LoL when it comes to last-hitting/items etc? My fundamental problem with HotS is and has always been that it just looks/seems/feels so disorganized. I can't tell what they're actually trying to do here, nor why we need another MOBA game when there are already two (fairly new and dramatically evolving) titans. In order for such a thing to make sense to me, there needs to be some real passion or focus behind the game. This just feels like Mario Party but with Blizzard characters, which, while fun, certainly, doesn't really excite me.
[quote]
It's about perfectly last hitting while also playing your lane properly, harassing, pulling back, and so on. It's like in Sc2: any reasonably competent player can get to a high level in Marine Split challenge if they grind it for a few hours, but the people who are considered micro gods are the ones who can do insane things on the spot, without preparation, without expecting anything, and without ignoring everything else going on in the game. Same thing applies to most stuff in Dota/LoL. "and so on", i see.. You cant even name real differences cause they arent there, haha. They take lasthits away, yes, but what else is so more skillfull in other mobas? I dont see it, in hots you have to use different strategies based on the map (i think and guess thats the whole point here..), in lol and dota it is always the same map, i think that is more simple, no? As i said before, i see no reason why other mobas are so more skillfull, they just snowball harder and waste your time. (it is a pain in the ass to know the winner after 15 mins but have to play for another 15-30 mins cause the map is big) I think hots is way less snowbally and that alone is the reason why i look forwards to it and think it would be way more interesting to watch aswell I really hope you're joking.... The laning phase is about using your skill to keep up farm, reduce opponent's farm, freeze the lane, and keep safely avoid ganks. Heroes will take away basically everything interesting about MOBA games before 30+ minutes - it's a total joke. Global exp, no items, no wards, and gimmick jungle + turret mechanics do not make a good game. Global exp is ridiculous because suddenly ganks are useless before you get strong enough to take turrets - you don't slow down leveling, and there's no items so nothing else matters in the game. It will probably just be a farmfest for ~15 minutes and then everybody max levels at the same time and groups up and teamfights. It's an entirely artificial game that just supports the same deathball disease that pervades sc2 toss. Any sort of risk is unnecessary because there are no mechanics outside of levels. The smartest way to play is to just afk farm a lane until you max and then group, yolo at the enemy, and whoever wins that fight wins the game. No reason on earth to leave lane except to take a merc camp, and, again, those are only useful if you're sure you can kill towers, which means that 2-3 enemy heroes have to be dead, which would only happen if the enemy team is stupid and decides to not afk farm->group. You won't play unnecessarily 15 minutes after the winner is decided - you'll play 15 unnecessary minutes of farming and then have a teamfight and then the game will be over. There's no snowball period, which is absolutely stupid game design. No advantage to the winner of lane phase, because there is no winner, because creeps will inevitably die, and that means everyone gets experience even if they're dead and there's no items so someone on the enemy team being dead is worthless if the other 4 are alive. As it is it's a waste of time. Should just be "here's a max level hero with a few customization options, teamfight and then take towers, glhf" if blizzard insists on no gold/items/global exp, because that's already the optimal way to play. People like you are also a pain in the ass to argue with, cause they dont even have any clue about the subject, but think they do, thats pretty annoying.. As i said i dont know much about dota2, but in lol pretty much all the lanes are extremely stale if nobody ganks there. Competitive gaming will always be as safe as possible... Hots just doesnt care about this concept and tries to encourage teamfight based on different objectives on DIFFERENT maps. There is no point in "only farming" cause you dont get an advantage, you need to do the different quests on the maps to get closer to winning. And guess what, that exactly will encourage teamfights. If you think laning phase is interesting, well i just dont know.. If you had watched the games they played at blizzcon you would know that there is a lot of action and teamfights, cause the game is designed that way. Global experience allows blizzard to make heroes that wouldnt be viable in any other moba (for example no auto attacks), so i think they can add a variety of champs that you will never see in lol and maybe even in dota2. So yeah keep on hating and pretending you get what they do, but in reality you really dont, you are just a hater.. You just ignored half of his post, well done. We get it, you don't like laning, but that doesn't mean that there is no depth to it and thus interesting. You were worried about snowballing. This game could actually snowball a lot harder than DotA and LoL, if your team dies while doing an objective, because obviously you're dead and the opponent gets the exp and objective. Though of course that is impossible to judge at this point. I'm just not sure if this slugfest type of gameplay is going to be fun after a week or two. Their seems to be very little to think about. Maybe the fact that they've smartly given the mapmaking process to the community will help out. Too bad they didn't adopt this stance for SC2 and re-introduced Star Station when their was a map contest just happening. Yeah so much depht in having the better hero for zoning and thus forcing a gank there, instead of fighting over actuall objectives. What exactly did i ignore? All he says is that he thinks this game will be about lvling to max and then push, there is literally nothing else this guy added. It could be that this game snowballs, but no items are a big factor against snowballing. I think that is pretty easy to understand. That's such a simplified view of laning/ganking..... so i'm just gonna stop arguing about it. Let's just say there's a lot more complexity then you seem to be aware of in lane/gank phase. While no items does prevent snowballing, global exp is essentially an extremely volatile mechanic to try and ensure there's no snowball. One or two kills won't mean anything as long as the other team can still farm, but, let's say you're 3 minutes in and you wipe the entire enemy team - suddenly you have 5 people farming exp compared to 0 (unless you just auto-get exp whenever enemy minions die, which would be even more awful), and it gives you a big advantage when the other team revives because they will be pretty far behind when they revive and then it should be simplicity to force them out of lane repeatedly and win the game. I'll reiterate why I think the global exp/no items is bad game design, because I didn't express myself well and I was upset at how dumb it sounded when I first read the whole global exp thing. GE/NI means advantages are either basically meaningless or too huge to overcome. Early teamwipes are going to be absolutely devastating, but late teamwipes will be essentially useless. After people max out on levels, teamfights gain you no advantage except tower kills - when the enemy team revives, you will be just as even as you were before the teamfight, except they have one-two less towers. Taking stone zealot gets you another tower or two. Hey look the other team is still max level, let's hope we don't mess up this teamfight because we don't actually have an advantage over them, but even if we do mess up we still have (x) towers left to try again. It's my big problem with how this game sounds. It feels like it's just a gimmick to ensure no snowball unless it's a gigantic advantage (early teamwipe), backed up by arcade-y maps with more gimmicky objectives/maps to force teamfights. If they had just made a regular MOBA with this style of game as a different mode or something, that would've been neat, but this being the whole game just feels weak to me. It screams "WE NEED TO BE DIFFERENT SOMEHOW ADSFSKDFSDKF" instead of going for a solid basic design and then adding on nifty features on top of that. On November 11 2013 09:09 ssxsilver wrote:On November 11 2013 08:05 Godwrath wrote:On November 11 2013 07:41 ssxsilver wrote:
The huge focus on PvE also worries me. Anyone else feel that the teamfights in the showmatch felt forced? Take the haunted mine map, it seems way more productive to get a bigger skull giant or more siege spawns than actually winning fights. That would actually encourage you to take teamfights to get the minions. Dragon, Baron and jungle are no different in lol for example. You teamfight for the buffs/cash, which are at the end, in game advantadges. How much of LoL is actual team-fighting though? I'm not a huge moba viewer by any means, but my impression of LoL is that it's a much, much slower paced game than DotA/HoN. The times I do catch a stream, it's like 20 minutes in and single digit kill counts. Without smoke, TP scrolls, and with the prevalence of wards (which is actually getting patched to make vision more limited and require more teamwork to obtain), LoL's early game is a lot less action-y then DotA. However, after a certain point it becomes a lot more teamfight than what i've seen of DotA - splitpush is limited to one lane and everyone else is usually grouped or close, and the gameplay is a lot more focused on taking towers, dragon, baron, getting vision etc. Does the world really need another hardcore, farm based moba? Is is really a shame to try something different? Can we really know the meta game before it is released? Global XP and gold is not bad game design, its a design choice. This game is about 20 minutes of fun trying to spawn siege minions, rather than building building up items and snowballing out of control. Personally, I am glad that Blizzard is making a game that will be fun for everyone. If I want hard core games, I play Dota 2. I don't mean to come across as OMGITSNOTDOTAORLOLMURDERIT, it's just frustrating to me that they don't even have to option of a more normal moba, especially when that's how they originally showcased it >.> I quite enjoy playing casually, but I just feel like if blizzard are really trying to make this a standalone game they should start with a more solid style of gameplay and added the sillier maps/modes afterwards. Riot added things like ARAM/Dominion, 5x vs 5y is being added, but they started with basic 5v5. Also, total nonrelated aside - why do none of these games have X hero siege modes T_T I can see where you're coming from, but I mean, if you want the more normal moba type, play dota/lol. I understand what you're saying, and yeah it'd be kinda fun playing a normal moba with blizzard characters, but I'd much rather they spend their time doing the random fun stuff they're doing now. If it means I might get another 5 blizzard characters or 4 more maps at launch, then I'll gladly give up the normal moba option. We can always make those mobas in the map editor, remember. As for the competition aspect everyone's clamoring about, I don't think it's going to be professionally competitive, I just have that feeling. HOWEVER, I will be the first to admit that the way they're going about it right now is the way to create a truly great esport. They didn't throw money at broodwar to turn it into an eSport, they let it be, balanced it a bit, and it caught on. I think that if this game becomes a popular eSport, it will become an extremely potent one by it's take on competition alone.
I agree with you.
But I am worried about the queue time.
They are splitting up the community with different maps and no words on how they would ensure similar skilled players to play against each other.
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I agree with you.
But I am worried about the queue time.
They are splitting up the community with different maps and no words on how they would ensure similar skilled players to play against each other.
As far as ensuring similarly skilled players play together, I'd imagine that they'd put in a matchmaking rating similar to SC2's or WoW's arena/battleground system works.
I think that the different maps could be a cause for concern, assuming they let people choose which one they want to play on for "laddering". I think they said that they're gonna have in-game currency though, as well as account-wide experience (for the purpose of getting new cosmetics/mounts/etc), so what I think they could do is similar to what they do in WoW Battlegrounds. If you're unfamiliar with how WoW's BG system works, you can queue up for pretty much any map or "Battleground" you wanted, and like Heroes they have different objectives. However, you can also queue for a "Random Battleground", which would net you more Honor (player vs player currency to obtain gear specifically made for player vs player combat). Additionally, they rotate the "Call to Arms", which basically means that there's always one BG that will get you the bonus even if you queue specifically for that one, and it rotates every so often (usually 3-4 days).
I can see Blizzard copy/pasting WoW's BG mechanic into Heroes.
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On November 12 2013 20:19 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 05:37 Noobity wrote:On November 11 2013 10:25 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 09:54 Plansix wrote:On November 11 2013 09:17 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 08:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 11 2013 08:03 Ravomat wrote:On November 11 2013 07:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 11 2013 07:22 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 06:49 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
"and so on", i see.. You cant even name real differences cause they arent there, haha.
They take lasthits away, yes, but what else is so more skillfull in other mobas?
I dont see it, in hots you have to use different strategies based on the map (i think and guess thats the whole point here..), in lol and dota it is always the same map, i think that is more simple, no?
As i said before, i see no reason why other mobas are so more skillfull, they just snowball harder and waste your time. (it is a pain in the ass to know the winner after 15 mins but have to play for another 15-30 mins cause the map is big)
I think hots is way less snowbally and that alone is the reason why i look forwards to it and think it would be way more interesting to watch aswell I really hope you're joking.... The laning phase is about using your skill to keep up farm, reduce opponent's farm, freeze the lane, and keep safely avoid ganks. Heroes will take away basically everything interesting about MOBA games before 30+ minutes - it's a total joke. Global exp, no items, no wards, and gimmick jungle + turret mechanics do not make a good game. Global exp is ridiculous because suddenly ganks are useless before you get strong enough to take turrets - you don't slow down leveling, and there's no items so nothing else matters in the game. It will probably just be a farmfest for ~15 minutes and then everybody max levels at the same time and groups up and teamfights. It's an entirely artificial game that just supports the same deathball disease that pervades sc2 toss. Any sort of risk is unnecessary because there are no mechanics outside of levels. The smartest way to play is to just afk farm a lane until you max and then group, yolo at the enemy, and whoever wins that fight wins the game. No reason on earth to leave lane except to take a merc camp, and, again, those are only useful if you're sure you can kill towers, which means that 2-3 enemy heroes have to be dead, which would only happen if the enemy team is stupid and decides to not afk farm->group. You won't play unnecessarily 15 minutes after the winner is decided - you'll play 15 unnecessary minutes of farming and then have a teamfight and then the game will be over. There's no snowball period, which is absolutely stupid game design. No advantage to the winner of lane phase, because there is no winner, because creeps will inevitably die, and that means everyone gets experience even if they're dead and there's no items so someone on the enemy team being dead is worthless if the other 4 are alive. As it is it's a waste of time. Should just be "here's a max level hero with a few customization options, teamfight and then take towers, glhf" if blizzard insists on no gold/items/global exp, because that's already the optimal way to play. People like you are also a pain in the ass to argue with, cause they dont even have any clue about the subject, but think they do, thats pretty annoying.. As i said i dont know much about dota2, but in lol pretty much all the lanes are extremely stale if nobody ganks there. Competitive gaming will always be as safe as possible... Hots just doesnt care about this concept and tries to encourage teamfight based on different objectives on DIFFERENT maps. There is no point in "only farming" cause you dont get an advantage, you need to do the different quests on the maps to get closer to winning. And guess what, that exactly will encourage teamfights. If you think laning phase is interesting, well i just dont know.. If you had watched the games they played at blizzcon you would know that there is a lot of action and teamfights, cause the game is designed that way. Global experience allows blizzard to make heroes that wouldnt be viable in any other moba (for example no auto attacks), so i think they can add a variety of champs that you will never see in lol and maybe even in dota2. So yeah keep on hating and pretending you get what they do, but in reality you really dont, you are just a hater.. You just ignored half of his post, well done. We get it, you don't like laning, but that doesn't mean that there is no depth to it and thus interesting. You were worried about snowballing. This game could actually snowball a lot harder than DotA and LoL, if your team dies while doing an objective, because obviously you're dead and the opponent gets the exp and objective. Though of course that is impossible to judge at this point. I'm just not sure if this slugfest type of gameplay is going to be fun after a week or two. Their seems to be very little to think about. Maybe the fact that they've smartly given the mapmaking process to the community will help out. Too bad they didn't adopt this stance for SC2 and re-introduced Star Station when their was a map contest just happening. Yeah so much depht in having the better hero for zoning and thus forcing a gank there, instead of fighting over actuall objectives. What exactly did i ignore? All he says is that he thinks this game will be about lvling to max and then push, there is literally nothing else this guy added. It could be that this game snowballs, but no items are a big factor against snowballing. I think that is pretty easy to understand. That's such a simplified view of laning/ganking..... so i'm just gonna stop arguing about it. Let's just say there's a lot more complexity then you seem to be aware of in lane/gank phase. While no items does prevent snowballing, global exp is essentially an extremely volatile mechanic to try and ensure there's no snowball. One or two kills won't mean anything as long as the other team can still farm, but, let's say you're 3 minutes in and you wipe the entire enemy team - suddenly you have 5 people farming exp compared to 0 (unless you just auto-get exp whenever enemy minions die, which would be even more awful), and it gives you a big advantage when the other team revives because they will be pretty far behind when they revive and then it should be simplicity to force them out of lane repeatedly and win the game. I'll reiterate why I think the global exp/no items is bad game design, because I didn't express myself well and I was upset at how dumb it sounded when I first read the whole global exp thing. GE/NI means advantages are either basically meaningless or too huge to overcome. Early teamwipes are going to be absolutely devastating, but late teamwipes will be essentially useless. After people max out on levels, teamfights gain you no advantage except tower kills - when the enemy team revives, you will be just as even as you were before the teamfight, except they have one-two less towers. Taking stone zealot gets you another tower or two. Hey look the other team is still max level, let's hope we don't mess up this teamfight because we don't actually have an advantage over them, but even if we do mess up we still have (x) towers left to try again. It's my big problem with how this game sounds. It feels like it's just a gimmick to ensure no snowball unless it's a gigantic advantage (early teamwipe), backed up by arcade-y maps with more gimmicky objectives/maps to force teamfights. If they had just made a regular MOBA with this style of game as a different mode or something, that would've been neat, but this being the whole game just feels weak to me. It screams "WE NEED TO BE DIFFERENT SOMEHOW ADSFSKDFSDKF" instead of going for a solid basic design and then adding on nifty features on top of that. On November 11 2013 09:09 ssxsilver wrote:On November 11 2013 08:05 Godwrath wrote:On November 11 2013 07:41 ssxsilver wrote:
The huge focus on PvE also worries me. Anyone else feel that the teamfights in the showmatch felt forced? Take the haunted mine map, it seems way more productive to get a bigger skull giant or more siege spawns than actually winning fights. That would actually encourage you to take teamfights to get the minions. Dragon, Baron and jungle are no different in lol for example. You teamfight for the buffs/cash, which are at the end, in game advantadges. How much of LoL is actual team-fighting though? I'm not a huge moba viewer by any means, but my impression of LoL is that it's a much, much slower paced game than DotA/HoN. The times I do catch a stream, it's like 20 minutes in and single digit kill counts. Without smoke, TP scrolls, and with the prevalence of wards (which is actually getting patched to make vision more limited and require more teamwork to obtain), LoL's early game is a lot less action-y then DotA. However, after a certain point it becomes a lot more teamfight than what i've seen of DotA - splitpush is limited to one lane and everyone else is usually grouped or close, and the gameplay is a lot more focused on taking towers, dragon, baron, getting vision etc. Does the world really need another hardcore, farm based moba? Is is really a shame to try something different? Can we really know the meta game before it is released? Global XP and gold is not bad game design, its a design choice. This game is about 20 minutes of fun trying to spawn siege minions, rather than building building up items and snowballing out of control. Personally, I am glad that Blizzard is making a game that will be fun for everyone. If I want hard core games, I play Dota 2. I don't mean to come across as OMGITSNOTDOTAORLOLMURDERIT, it's just frustrating to me that they don't even have to option of a more normal moba, especially when that's how they originally showcased it >.> I quite enjoy playing casually, but I just feel like if blizzard are really trying to make this a standalone game they should start with a more solid style of gameplay and added the sillier maps/modes afterwards. Riot added things like ARAM/Dominion, 5x vs 5y is being added, but they started with basic 5v5. Also, total nonrelated aside - why do none of these games have X hero siege modes T_T I can see where you're coming from, but I mean, if you want the more normal moba type, play dota/lol. I understand what you're saying, and yeah it'd be kinda fun playing a normal moba with blizzard characters, but I'd much rather they spend their time doing the random fun stuff they're doing now. If it means I might get another 5 blizzard characters or 4 more maps at launch, then I'll gladly give up the normal moba option. We can always make those mobas in the map editor, remember. As for the competition aspect everyone's clamoring about, I don't think it's going to be professionally competitive, I just have that feeling. HOWEVER, I will be the first to admit that the way they're going about it right now is the way to create a truly great esport. They didn't throw money at broodwar to turn it into an eSport, they let it be, balanced it a bit, and it caught on. I think that if this game becomes a popular eSport, it will become an extremely potent one by it's take on competition alone. I agree with you. But I am worried about the queue time. They are splitting up the community with different maps and no words on how they would ensure similar skilled players to play against each other.
They spoke about it as "5 maps in rotation", that suggests to me that you'll go into match-making without getting to select your map of choice, just like in SC2.
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On November 12 2013 20:19 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 05:37 Noobity wrote:On November 11 2013 10:25 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 09:54 Plansix wrote:On November 11 2013 09:17 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 08:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 11 2013 08:03 Ravomat wrote:On November 11 2013 07:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 11 2013 07:22 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 06:49 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
"and so on", i see.. You cant even name real differences cause they arent there, haha.
They take lasthits away, yes, but what else is so more skillfull in other mobas?
I dont see it, in hots you have to use different strategies based on the map (i think and guess thats the whole point here..), in lol and dota it is always the same map, i think that is more simple, no?
As i said before, i see no reason why other mobas are so more skillfull, they just snowball harder and waste your time. (it is a pain in the ass to know the winner after 15 mins but have to play for another 15-30 mins cause the map is big)
I think hots is way less snowbally and that alone is the reason why i look forwards to it and think it would be way more interesting to watch aswell I really hope you're joking.... The laning phase is about using your skill to keep up farm, reduce opponent's farm, freeze the lane, and keep safely avoid ganks. Heroes will take away basically everything interesting about MOBA games before 30+ minutes - it's a total joke. Global exp, no items, no wards, and gimmick jungle + turret mechanics do not make a good game. Global exp is ridiculous because suddenly ganks are useless before you get strong enough to take turrets - you don't slow down leveling, and there's no items so nothing else matters in the game. It will probably just be a farmfest for ~15 minutes and then everybody max levels at the same time and groups up and teamfights. It's an entirely artificial game that just supports the same deathball disease that pervades sc2 toss. Any sort of risk is unnecessary because there are no mechanics outside of levels. The smartest way to play is to just afk farm a lane until you max and then group, yolo at the enemy, and whoever wins that fight wins the game. No reason on earth to leave lane except to take a merc camp, and, again, those are only useful if you're sure you can kill towers, which means that 2-3 enemy heroes have to be dead, which would only happen if the enemy team is stupid and decides to not afk farm->group. You won't play unnecessarily 15 minutes after the winner is decided - you'll play 15 unnecessary minutes of farming and then have a teamfight and then the game will be over. There's no snowball period, which is absolutely stupid game design. No advantage to the winner of lane phase, because there is no winner, because creeps will inevitably die, and that means everyone gets experience even if they're dead and there's no items so someone on the enemy team being dead is worthless if the other 4 are alive. As it is it's a waste of time. Should just be "here's a max level hero with a few customization options, teamfight and then take towers, glhf" if blizzard insists on no gold/items/global exp, because that's already the optimal way to play. People like you are also a pain in the ass to argue with, cause they dont even have any clue about the subject, but think they do, thats pretty annoying.. As i said i dont know much about dota2, but in lol pretty much all the lanes are extremely stale if nobody ganks there. Competitive gaming will always be as safe as possible... Hots just doesnt care about this concept and tries to encourage teamfight based on different objectives on DIFFERENT maps. There is no point in "only farming" cause you dont get an advantage, you need to do the different quests on the maps to get closer to winning. And guess what, that exactly will encourage teamfights. If you think laning phase is interesting, well i just dont know.. If you had watched the games they played at blizzcon you would know that there is a lot of action and teamfights, cause the game is designed that way. Global experience allows blizzard to make heroes that wouldnt be viable in any other moba (for example no auto attacks), so i think they can add a variety of champs that you will never see in lol and maybe even in dota2. So yeah keep on hating and pretending you get what they do, but in reality you really dont, you are just a hater.. You just ignored half of his post, well done. We get it, you don't like laning, but that doesn't mean that there is no depth to it and thus interesting. You were worried about snowballing. This game could actually snowball a lot harder than DotA and LoL, if your team dies while doing an objective, because obviously you're dead and the opponent gets the exp and objective. Though of course that is impossible to judge at this point. I'm just not sure if this slugfest type of gameplay is going to be fun after a week or two. Their seems to be very little to think about. Maybe the fact that they've smartly given the mapmaking process to the community will help out. Too bad they didn't adopt this stance for SC2 and re-introduced Star Station when their was a map contest just happening. Yeah so much depht in having the better hero for zoning and thus forcing a gank there, instead of fighting over actuall objectives. What exactly did i ignore? All he says is that he thinks this game will be about lvling to max and then push, there is literally nothing else this guy added. It could be that this game snowballs, but no items are a big factor against snowballing. I think that is pretty easy to understand. That's such a simplified view of laning/ganking..... so i'm just gonna stop arguing about it. Let's just say there's a lot more complexity then you seem to be aware of in lane/gank phase. While no items does prevent snowballing, global exp is essentially an extremely volatile mechanic to try and ensure there's no snowball. One or two kills won't mean anything as long as the other team can still farm, but, let's say you're 3 minutes in and you wipe the entire enemy team - suddenly you have 5 people farming exp compared to 0 (unless you just auto-get exp whenever enemy minions die, which would be even more awful), and it gives you a big advantage when the other team revives because they will be pretty far behind when they revive and then it should be simplicity to force them out of lane repeatedly and win the game. I'll reiterate why I think the global exp/no items is bad game design, because I didn't express myself well and I was upset at how dumb it sounded when I first read the whole global exp thing. GE/NI means advantages are either basically meaningless or too huge to overcome. Early teamwipes are going to be absolutely devastating, but late teamwipes will be essentially useless. After people max out on levels, teamfights gain you no advantage except tower kills - when the enemy team revives, you will be just as even as you were before the teamfight, except they have one-two less towers. Taking stone zealot gets you another tower or two. Hey look the other team is still max level, let's hope we don't mess up this teamfight because we don't actually have an advantage over them, but even if we do mess up we still have (x) towers left to try again. It's my big problem with how this game sounds. It feels like it's just a gimmick to ensure no snowball unless it's a gigantic advantage (early teamwipe), backed up by arcade-y maps with more gimmicky objectives/maps to force teamfights. If they had just made a regular MOBA with this style of game as a different mode or something, that would've been neat, but this being the whole game just feels weak to me. It screams "WE NEED TO BE DIFFERENT SOMEHOW ADSFSKDFSDKF" instead of going for a solid basic design and then adding on nifty features on top of that. On November 11 2013 09:09 ssxsilver wrote:On November 11 2013 08:05 Godwrath wrote:On November 11 2013 07:41 ssxsilver wrote:
The huge focus on PvE also worries me. Anyone else feel that the teamfights in the showmatch felt forced? Take the haunted mine map, it seems way more productive to get a bigger skull giant or more siege spawns than actually winning fights. That would actually encourage you to take teamfights to get the minions. Dragon, Baron and jungle are no different in lol for example. You teamfight for the buffs/cash, which are at the end, in game advantadges. How much of LoL is actual team-fighting though? I'm not a huge moba viewer by any means, but my impression of LoL is that it's a much, much slower paced game than DotA/HoN. The times I do catch a stream, it's like 20 minutes in and single digit kill counts. Without smoke, TP scrolls, and with the prevalence of wards (which is actually getting patched to make vision more limited and require more teamwork to obtain), LoL's early game is a lot less action-y then DotA. However, after a certain point it becomes a lot more teamfight than what i've seen of DotA - splitpush is limited to one lane and everyone else is usually grouped or close, and the gameplay is a lot more focused on taking towers, dragon, baron, getting vision etc. Does the world really need another hardcore, farm based moba? Is is really a shame to try something different? Can we really know the meta game before it is released? Global XP and gold is not bad game design, its a design choice. This game is about 20 minutes of fun trying to spawn siege minions, rather than building building up items and snowballing out of control. Personally, I am glad that Blizzard is making a game that will be fun for everyone. If I want hard core games, I play Dota 2. I don't mean to come across as OMGITSNOTDOTAORLOLMURDERIT, it's just frustrating to me that they don't even have to option of a more normal moba, especially when that's how they originally showcased it >.> I quite enjoy playing casually, but I just feel like if blizzard are really trying to make this a standalone game they should start with a more solid style of gameplay and added the sillier maps/modes afterwards. Riot added things like ARAM/Dominion, 5x vs 5y is being added, but they started with basic 5v5. Also, total nonrelated aside - why do none of these games have X hero siege modes T_T I can see where you're coming from, but I mean, if you want the more normal moba type, play dota/lol. I understand what you're saying, and yeah it'd be kinda fun playing a normal moba with blizzard characters, but I'd much rather they spend their time doing the random fun stuff they're doing now. If it means I might get another 5 blizzard characters or 4 more maps at launch, then I'll gladly give up the normal moba option. We can always make those mobas in the map editor, remember. As for the competition aspect everyone's clamoring about, I don't think it's going to be professionally competitive, I just have that feeling. HOWEVER, I will be the first to admit that the way they're going about it right now is the way to create a truly great esport. They didn't throw money at broodwar to turn it into an eSport, they let it be, balanced it a bit, and it caught on. I think that if this game becomes a popular eSport, it will become an extremely potent one by it's take on competition alone. I agree with you. But I am worried about the queue time. They are splitting up the community with different maps and no words on how they would ensure similar skilled players to play against each other.
it'll probably be map rotation system, so there won't be specific queues per map
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Let's be honest, most people here didn't think LoL would work as an esports.We also felt it in our guts and blablabla
And to be fair i couldn't care less about it if it works that way or not.
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All these previous posts remind me of the Hearthstone launch announcement.
And we all know what happened next...
I don't like MOBAs, I don't like playing a 45 min game and having to mess around with hundreds of items and builds. I'm what everyone will call a "casual" gamer, which in fact is everyone who has a job, family duties, children and so.
And this game seems interesting. The same way the battleship arcade games are in SC2. They are not going to be a major esport, but they are fun to play.
I will surely try it. After all, it will be free.
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I am excited for Heroes of the Storm. I love Dota and its the only MOBA content that I consume and play. But with Heroes having around 20 minutes per game, that to me is very attractive. Thats one of the reasons that I can even play SC2. I may only have time for one - two games due to the normal pressures/pull of life - and that may not even be a complete game of Dota. So in addition to the characters/history of the heroes plus the play length, this may be a great fit.
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On November 12 2013 20:54 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 20:19 ETisME wrote:On November 12 2013 05:37 Noobity wrote:On November 11 2013 10:25 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 09:54 Plansix wrote:On November 11 2013 09:17 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 11 2013 08:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 11 2013 08:03 Ravomat wrote:On November 11 2013 07:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 11 2013 07:22 GTPGlitch wrote:
[quote]
I really hope you're joking....
The laning phase is about using your skill to keep up farm, reduce opponent's farm, freeze the lane, and keep safely avoid ganks. Heroes will take away basically everything interesting about MOBA games before 30+ minutes - it's a total joke. Global exp, no items, no wards, and gimmick jungle + turret mechanics do not make a good game.
Global exp is ridiculous because suddenly ganks are useless before you get strong enough to take turrets - you don't slow down leveling, and there's no items so nothing else matters in the game. It will probably just be a farmfest for ~15 minutes and then everybody max levels at the same time and groups up and teamfights.
It's an entirely artificial game that just supports the same deathball disease that pervades sc2 toss. Any sort of risk is unnecessary because there are no mechanics outside of levels. The smartest way to play is to just afk farm a lane until you max and then group, yolo at the enemy, and whoever wins that fight wins the game. No reason on earth to leave lane except to take a merc camp, and, again, those are only useful if you're sure you can kill towers, which means that 2-3 enemy heroes have to be dead, which would only happen if the enemy team is stupid and decides to not afk farm->group.
You won't play unnecessarily 15 minutes after the winner is decided - you'll play 15 unnecessary minutes of farming and then have a teamfight and then the game will be over. There's no snowball period, which is absolutely stupid game design. No advantage to the winner of lane phase, because there is no winner, because creeps will inevitably die, and that means everyone gets experience even if they're dead and there's no items so someone on the enemy team being dead is worthless if the other 4 are alive.
As it is it's a waste of time. Should just be "here's a max level hero with a few customization options, teamfight and then take towers, glhf" if blizzard insists on no gold/items/global exp, because that's already the optimal way to play. People like you are also a pain in the ass to argue with, cause they dont even have any clue about the subject, but think they do, thats pretty annoying.. As i said i dont know much about dota2, but in lol pretty much all the lanes are extremely stale if nobody ganks there. Competitive gaming will always be as safe as possible... Hots just doesnt care about this concept and tries to encourage teamfight based on different objectives on DIFFERENT maps. There is no point in "only farming" cause you dont get an advantage, you need to do the different quests on the maps to get closer to winning. And guess what, that exactly will encourage teamfights. If you think laning phase is interesting, well i just dont know.. If you had watched the games they played at blizzcon you would know that there is a lot of action and teamfights, cause the game is designed that way. Global experience allows blizzard to make heroes that wouldnt be viable in any other moba (for example no auto attacks), so i think they can add a variety of champs that you will never see in lol and maybe even in dota2. So yeah keep on hating and pretending you get what they do, but in reality you really dont, you are just a hater.. You just ignored half of his post, well done. We get it, you don't like laning, but that doesn't mean that there is no depth to it and thus interesting. You were worried about snowballing. This game could actually snowball a lot harder than DotA and LoL, if your team dies while doing an objective, because obviously you're dead and the opponent gets the exp and objective. Though of course that is impossible to judge at this point. I'm just not sure if this slugfest type of gameplay is going to be fun after a week or two. Their seems to be very little to think about. Maybe the fact that they've smartly given the mapmaking process to the community will help out. Too bad they didn't adopt this stance for SC2 and re-introduced Star Station when their was a map contest just happening. Yeah so much depht in having the better hero for zoning and thus forcing a gank there, instead of fighting over actuall objectives. What exactly did i ignore? All he says is that he thinks this game will be about lvling to max and then push, there is literally nothing else this guy added. It could be that this game snowballs, but no items are a big factor against snowballing. I think that is pretty easy to understand. That's such a simplified view of laning/ganking..... so i'm just gonna stop arguing about it. Let's just say there's a lot more complexity then you seem to be aware of in lane/gank phase. While no items does prevent snowballing, global exp is essentially an extremely volatile mechanic to try and ensure there's no snowball. One or two kills won't mean anything as long as the other team can still farm, but, let's say you're 3 minutes in and you wipe the entire enemy team - suddenly you have 5 people farming exp compared to 0 (unless you just auto-get exp whenever enemy minions die, which would be even more awful), and it gives you a big advantage when the other team revives because they will be pretty far behind when they revive and then it should be simplicity to force them out of lane repeatedly and win the game. I'll reiterate why I think the global exp/no items is bad game design, because I didn't express myself well and I was upset at how dumb it sounded when I first read the whole global exp thing. GE/NI means advantages are either basically meaningless or too huge to overcome. Early teamwipes are going to be absolutely devastating, but late teamwipes will be essentially useless. After people max out on levels, teamfights gain you no advantage except tower kills - when the enemy team revives, you will be just as even as you were before the teamfight, except they have one-two less towers. Taking stone zealot gets you another tower or two. Hey look the other team is still max level, let's hope we don't mess up this teamfight because we don't actually have an advantage over them, but even if we do mess up we still have (x) towers left to try again. It's my big problem with how this game sounds. It feels like it's just a gimmick to ensure no snowball unless it's a gigantic advantage (early teamwipe), backed up by arcade-y maps with more gimmicky objectives/maps to force teamfights. If they had just made a regular MOBA with this style of game as a different mode or something, that would've been neat, but this being the whole game just feels weak to me. It screams "WE NEED TO BE DIFFERENT SOMEHOW ADSFSKDFSDKF" instead of going for a solid basic design and then adding on nifty features on top of that. On November 11 2013 09:09 ssxsilver wrote:On November 11 2013 08:05 Godwrath wrote:On November 11 2013 07:41 ssxsilver wrote:
The huge focus on PvE also worries me. Anyone else feel that the teamfights in the showmatch felt forced? Take the haunted mine map, it seems way more productive to get a bigger skull giant or more siege spawns than actually winning fights. That would actually encourage you to take teamfights to get the minions. Dragon, Baron and jungle are no different in lol for example. You teamfight for the buffs/cash, which are at the end, in game advantadges. How much of LoL is actual team-fighting though? I'm not a huge moba viewer by any means, but my impression of LoL is that it's a much, much slower paced game than DotA/HoN. The times I do catch a stream, it's like 20 minutes in and single digit kill counts. Without smoke, TP scrolls, and with the prevalence of wards (which is actually getting patched to make vision more limited and require more teamwork to obtain), LoL's early game is a lot less action-y then DotA. However, after a certain point it becomes a lot more teamfight than what i've seen of DotA - splitpush is limited to one lane and everyone else is usually grouped or close, and the gameplay is a lot more focused on taking towers, dragon, baron, getting vision etc. Does the world really need another hardcore, farm based moba? Is is really a shame to try something different? Can we really know the meta game before it is released? Global XP and gold is not bad game design, its a design choice. This game is about 20 minutes of fun trying to spawn siege minions, rather than building building up items and snowballing out of control. Personally, I am glad that Blizzard is making a game that will be fun for everyone. If I want hard core games, I play Dota 2. I don't mean to come across as OMGITSNOTDOTAORLOLMURDERIT, it's just frustrating to me that they don't even have to option of a more normal moba, especially when that's how they originally showcased it >.> I quite enjoy playing casually, but I just feel like if blizzard are really trying to make this a standalone game they should start with a more solid style of gameplay and added the sillier maps/modes afterwards. Riot added things like ARAM/Dominion, 5x vs 5y is being added, but they started with basic 5v5. Also, total nonrelated aside - why do none of these games have X hero siege modes T_T I can see where you're coming from, but I mean, if you want the more normal moba type, play dota/lol. I understand what you're saying, and yeah it'd be kinda fun playing a normal moba with blizzard characters, but I'd much rather they spend their time doing the random fun stuff they're doing now. If it means I might get another 5 blizzard characters or 4 more maps at launch, then I'll gladly give up the normal moba option. We can always make those mobas in the map editor, remember. As for the competition aspect everyone's clamoring about, I don't think it's going to be professionally competitive, I just have that feeling. HOWEVER, I will be the first to admit that the way they're going about it right now is the way to create a truly great esport. They didn't throw money at broodwar to turn it into an eSport, they let it be, balanced it a bit, and it caught on. I think that if this game becomes a popular eSport, it will become an extremely potent one by it's take on competition alone. I agree with you. But I am worried about the queue time. They are splitting up the community with different maps and no words on how they would ensure similar skilled players to play against each other. They spoke about it as "5 maps in rotation", that suggests to me that you'll go into match-making without getting to select your map of choice, just like in SC2.
that's great to know 
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the trailers are always nice, blizzard have not failed on that aspect since WOL, I give them that
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On November 11 2013 17:40 prOxi.swAMi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2013 17:07 Tya wrote:
Reading this thread, I kinda get the impression that people want this to fail just so that their chosen dota game doesn't have competition. It's not just here. The comments about this game all over the web are generally negative and without any decent reasoning, it's just "lol no gold get out". People are fucks. I'm relatively positive about this game, I don't see why I can't play heroes and LoL concurrently.
All the negativity on the web is just killing me 
After watching blizzcon, the only thing I wish i could do was to grab a couple of friend and play this game.
And since I could'nt, I went on some forums to share my enthusiasm, and find nothing but complain
(And sorry for my poor english)
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As somewhat of a frequent Dota 2 player, the new mechanics and changes offer a fresh outlook on the genre which is good.
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As a person who genuinely never was interested in playing dota or mobas (but have played quite a bit with friends irl etc) this game looks pretty cool. And I'm glad they mostly abandoned a lot of the mainstays (especially the single map and focus of game style) The only problem I have with it is the name, HotS...
not to mention the name is lazy because of their art team: http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/
Is this just an oversight or are they trolling? I hope the name changes, it's kind of bland and generic anyways. And considering the game is much different, why not something completely different from the names of the other games; Aeon of Strife, Defense of the Ancients, League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth. Yet, still have the acronym/abrev in mind.
Thesaurus words:
Persons: Mercenary, Champion, Hero, Legend, Celebrity, King, Idol, God, Model, Character, Souls, Warrior, Knight, Soldier.
Group: Army, Team, Clan, Unite, Brotherhood, Corps, Brigade, Legion, Squad, Mob, Swarm, Forces, Troops, Guards, Defenders, Platoon, Crew, Military,
Places: Universe, Fantasy, Dream, Blizzard, Earth, Galaxy, Land,
Action: Duel, Fight, Battle, War, Combat, Strife, Struggle, Peace, Contest, Fray, Onslaught, Ravage, Raze, Pillage, Feud, Quarrel, Brawl, Skirmish, Dissent, Clash, Riot, Rival, Melee, Attack, Spar, Conflict, Carnage, Schism
I like the idea of taking out 'of the' or 'of' and instead using 'The' in the front, or just using 2 good words. It's stronger sounding, and more encompassing.
How about something along the lines of 'The Universal War'? 'Blizzard Battle' (alliteration is nice too) or something like that? Or how about just straight one word, 'Schism'?
What can you guys come up with?
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On November 13 2013 08:04 MarlieChurphy wrote:
As a person who genuinely never was interested in playing dota or mobas (but have played quite a bit with friends irl etc) this game looks pretty cool. The only problem I have with it is the name, HotS...
There should be no confusion, considering nobody refers to sc2 as 'hots'. They said 'sc2' or 'starcraft'. Also from various threads and comments, people seem to like calling it "Heroes" anyways.
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EPT
