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On March 17 2015 01:47 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 18:39 Eliezar wrote:
Pro's seem largely undecided currently about exactly who is or isn't OP. Watching a lot of the ESL and I have seen Illidan, Azmodan, Hammer, ETC, Muradin, Rehgar, Uther, Valla, Tychus, Stitches, Zeratul, Nazeebo, Diablo and probably 1 or 2 others I cannot think of banned. You can tell by the strats as well that things are working on ladder/practice that get rolled in ESL and that people aren't settled on a solid meta yet.
I've seen them pick Illidan, Sonnya, Kerrigan, ETC, + healer in a league game...I've seen them pick tank, malf, rehgar, uther, jaina in a team game.
I think it will be interesting to see how the game changes over the next 6 months... Lol the OP right now is pretty self-spoken. 9 out of 10 games in hero league @ rank 1 goes like this: FP: Illidan 1st/2nd: Rehgar/ETC 2nd/3rd: Tyrande/Stiches 3rd/4th: Nazeebo/Valla 4th/5th: Sgt. Hammer/Uther 5th: Tassadar I'd be surprised if we'd get a different meta like ever, if they don't intend to implement a ban system in a nearby future, we're always gonna see stagnating picks continuously. Right now the top 3 is kinda illidan/Rehgar/Tyrande, but yeah it can be debatable.
With the exception of my comments about healing needing to be nerfed in general, I don't think any of these heroes really needed to be changed other than Illidan (metamorphosis) and Stitches (hook range). The larger issue is that other heroes need to be tuned upwards to bring them in line with these mainstays. Take Anub, for example. I had the "pleasure" of seeing a lot of Anubs on my teams this past weekend. Usually he was being played by people who I know are good players. I was stricken by how consistently underwhelming he is in teamfights. The impact as a solo tank just wasn't there. Now, I can see him being more effective when used in conjunction with someone like Tyrael, but I still think he needs some love.
EDIT:
@Xdaunt i personally feel that when Longboat Raid gets nerfed slightly (which is so deserved) vikings are gonna be in a very awkward spot. The main problem being that you should almost always get QWE is one thing, but looking at the other talent perks, i'd just never see why you would get them. Fail design, i love the hero(es) tho.
I'm not going to pretend to be a Vikings expert (because I don't play them), but when looking at their talents, I was stricken by how little viable diversity there was in the talent choices. So yes, when Longboat is nerfed, Vikings may be in a rough spot.
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Well, if both teams have healers, it is not OP. I don' tthink healers should be nerf to the point they are useless.
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On March 17 2015 02:57 FreeZEternal wrote:
Well, if both teams have healers, it is not OP. I don' tthink healers should be nerf to the point they are useless.
The issue is one of internal game balance. Just because both teams have access to the same imbalance doesn't mean that the imbalance doesn't exist or isn't a problem. The bottom line is that healers are too good right now, which limits the availability of viable team compositions, and makes for a less interesting game.
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On March 17 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 01:47 Sponkz wrote:On March 16 2015 18:39 Eliezar wrote:
Pro's seem largely undecided currently about exactly who is or isn't OP. Watching a lot of the ESL and I have seen Illidan, Azmodan, Hammer, ETC, Muradin, Rehgar, Uther, Valla, Tychus, Stitches, Zeratul, Nazeebo, Diablo and probably 1 or 2 others I cannot think of banned. You can tell by the strats as well that things are working on ladder/practice that get rolled in ESL and that people aren't settled on a solid meta yet.
I've seen them pick Illidan, Sonnya, Kerrigan, ETC, + healer in a league game...I've seen them pick tank, malf, rehgar, uther, jaina in a team game.
I think it will be interesting to see how the game changes over the next 6 months... Lol the OP right now is pretty self-spoken. 9 out of 10 games in hero league @ rank 1 goes like this: FP: Illidan 1st/2nd: Rehgar/ETC 2nd/3rd: Tyrande/Stiches 3rd/4th: Nazeebo/Valla 4th/5th: Sgt. Hammer/Uther 5th: Tassadar I'd be surprised if we'd get a different meta like ever, if they don't intend to implement a ban system in a nearby future, we're always gonna see stagnating picks continuously. Right now the top 3 is kinda illidan/Rehgar/Tyrande, but yeah it can be debatable. With the exception of my comments about healing needing to be nerfed in general, I don't think any of these heroes really needed to be changed other than Illidan (metamorphosis) and Stitches (hook range). The larger issue is that other heroes need to be tuned upwards to bring them in line with these mainstays. Take Anub, for example. I had the "pleasure" of seeing a lot of Anubs on my teams this past weekend. Usually he was being played by people who I know are good players. I was stricken by how consistently underwhelming he is in teamfights. The impact as a solo tank just wasn't there. Now, I can see him being more effective when used in conjunction with someone like Tyrael, but I still think he needs some love. Show nested quote +EDIT:
@Xdaunt i personally feel that when Longboat Raid gets nerfed slightly (which is so deserved) vikings are gonna be in a very awkward spot. The main problem being that you should almost always get QWE is one thing, but looking at the other talent perks, i'd just never see why you would get them. Fail design, i love the hero(es) tho. I'm not going to pretend to be a Vikings expert (because I don't play them), but when looking at their talents, I was stricken by how little viable diversity there was in the talent choices. So yes, when Longboat is nerfed, Vikings may be in a rough spot.
I really like some of the niche picks (erik having the stun from the old vikings game, Baelog getting an Attack Speed steroid), but my main concern will always be that you unlock their abilities through talents. Unless they completely re-edit that, i don't see them fit for well anything.
Another big concern I'm starting to have with vikings is how well people are adapting to the 4-1-1 lanes (well 4-2-1 to be precise) in Cursed Hollow and Sky Temple. It's not hard to zone olaf and it's super retarded to send Erik or Baelog to help him soak his solo lane. I've had games where the enemy zoned me super hard and the benefit of having the 4-man lane suddenly becomes neglect, because you're slowly losing control over what your hero is supposed to excel at.
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On March 16 2015 22:16 Markwerf wrote:
well bannings aren't exactly a good tell of what is OP.
Banning a hero because it's strong isn't the reason that often. If one hero sits way above the pack then the team picking second benefits by banning it, but if top heroes are more in line the bans are more to break up combo's or disallow picks you know you are bad against or the opposing team is good with.
For example illidan may get banned a fair bit he isn't neccesarily regarded as OP or that strong at all. He is just quite strong in certain combinations and that makes him a good pickup for the team picking second. The way drafting goes, the team picking second can more easily assemble combo's or pick heroes that are good in a niche because they have two picks by two first and the last pick. So the first team can not ban illidan for example but then the second team get's the option of something like illidan + tassadar, unless the first team picks illidan or tass first. But you usually don't want to do that as first team since illidan by itself can be made weak by the other team having the response option.
As a result first pick team might want to ban illidan, not because they think he's OP but just because he fits the drafing strategy of the second pick team more. In general I feel picking second is a slight advantage now. The absolute first pick is not a big deal now with the heroes fairly close but having the first double pick is quite nice. And the last pick is also sweet too where you can take niche picks better, for example those like sonya that can work well as long as her counters aren't played.
In general bans of the first team say little, that of the second team say a bit more but only if one hero is considered so strong they always want to deny that to the first team. Pick rates say much more, ie. how often is a hero picked if it wasn't banned. Because of bans that is hard to gauge for some heroes though because they aren't available for pick often. A hero like illidan i've seen not picked a couple times though even if it wasn't banned it just requires a team around it.
A very good explanation of how banning works and IMO why we aren't going to get banning in Hero League (coherent strategy?! without a remade group?!). I'm really surprised Team League as previewed does not feature banning, hopefully they'll reconsider.
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http://www.replaysofthestorm.com/guide/2/map-timers
Don't remember if this was posted here already. It could be useful for a few people  .
About the vikings you can't really nerf longboat right now because it is the only thing they have to be viable in a teamfight. Their skill build is indeed disappointing because not taking the active talents is just foolish, you need spin to win, jump and the shield otherwise you are just way too easy to kill.
They probably need some tuning but they don't seem to break the competitive scene so I'd say they are mostly fine right now, they're also a ton of fun to play and add some more challenge for the people who miss starcraft's multitasking .
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On March 17 2015 03:03 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 02:57 FreeZEternal wrote:
Well, if both teams have healers, it is not OP. I don' tthink healers should be nerf to the point they are useless. The issue is one of internal game balance. Just because both teams have access to the same imbalance doesn't mean that the imbalance doesn't exist or isn't a problem. The bottom line is that healers are too good right now, which limits the availability of viable team compositions, and makes for a less interesting game.
Isn't that the same with every hero? It is hard to win without healers, same thing with Tanks or even assassins.
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The issue with healer is that Blizzard is consciously making healing the main function of support (sans tass/tyrande). Though i guess tassadar's shield could be considered a heal. If every support hero has to have some sort of heal, then the other skills in their kit have to be variable enough from each other, as well as provide far more utility to a team. Supports with high cooldown nukes, harder cc options, buffs/debuffs, these are the things that make supports interesting IMO. I hope that blizzard stops making healers in general, maybe strip the current supports of their heals (tyrande, Lili, reghar, bw). The only healers that really make sense right now are Malf, uther and tass's shield, lorewise. Doubt it will happen though, but it'll be interesting to see how blizzard develops this role in the future.
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Edit: Accidently quoted
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meh double healer has only been popular for a short while now and it's more a meta thing, like double healer makes illidan much better and the healers just happen to be in good spots for also providing other things. If some other heroes are brought back to fine status the double healer 'problem' resolves itself. Besides double healer usually is one of tass or tyrande which i'd hardly call healers, they are more assassin than healer basically.
For example double warrior used to be quite popular for a while but warriors are just too crap now. Bring back some like anub'arak and tyrael which are good second warriors and double warrior is popular soon enough.
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On March 17 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 01:47 Sponkz wrote:On March 16 2015 18:39 Eliezar wrote:
Pro's seem largely undecided currently about exactly who is or isn't OP. Watching a lot of the ESL and I have seen Illidan, Azmodan, Hammer, ETC, Muradin, Rehgar, Uther, Valla, Tychus, Stitches, Zeratul, Nazeebo, Diablo and probably 1 or 2 others I cannot think of banned. You can tell by the strats as well that things are working on ladder/practice that get rolled in ESL and that people aren't settled on a solid meta yet.
I've seen them pick Illidan, Sonnya, Kerrigan, ETC, + healer in a league game...I've seen them pick tank, malf, rehgar, uther, jaina in a team game.
I think it will be interesting to see how the game changes over the next 6 months... Lol the OP right now is pretty self-spoken. 9 out of 10 games in hero league @ rank 1 goes like this: FP: Illidan 1st/2nd: Rehgar/ETC 2nd/3rd: Tyrande/Stiches 3rd/4th: Nazeebo/Valla 4th/5th: Sgt. Hammer/Uther 5th: Tassadar I'd be surprised if we'd get a different meta like ever, if they don't intend to implement a ban system in a nearby future, we're always gonna see stagnating picks continuously. Right now the top 3 is kinda illidan/Rehgar/Tyrande, but yeah it can be debatable. With the exception of my comments about healing needing to be nerfed in general, I don't think any of these heroes really needed to be changed other than Illidan (metamorphosis) and Stitches (hook range). The larger issue is that other heroes need to be tuned upwards to bring them in line with these mainstays. Take Anub, for example. I had the "pleasure" of seeing a lot of Anubs on my teams this past weekend. Usually he was being played by people who I know are good players. I was stricken by how consistently underwhelming he is in teamfights. The impact as a solo tank just wasn't there. Now, I can see him being more effective when used in conjunction with someone like Tyrael, but I still think he needs some love. Show nested quote +EDIT:
@Xdaunt i personally feel that when Longboat Raid gets nerfed slightly (which is so deserved) vikings are gonna be in a very awkward spot. The main problem being that you should almost always get QWE is one thing, but looking at the other talent perks, i'd just never see why you would get them. Fail design, i love the hero(es) tho. I'm not going to pretend to be a Vikings expert (because I don't play them), but when looking at their talents, I was stricken by how little viable diversity there was in the talent choices. So yes, when Longboat is nerfed, Vikings may be in a rough spot.
I wanted to expand on something you said, which was that certain heroes need to be tuned upwards to bring them in line with others and citing Anub as an example.
The problem isn't only that certain heroes have one viable build to be competitive. The problem is that if that build or character is countered, the person being countered has no reactive ability. Consider, for instance, a team that chooses block and imposing presence vs Hammer or Illidan: Hammer and Illidan are still effective, and they force the enemy team to make some tough choices, but those choices also nullify Hammer and Illidan to an extent.
Now lets look at Anub. Anub is an okay hero if you spec DPS and he's a 2nd tank and you get Locust Swarm... but only then I think he's just okay. Because of the range on his abilities he's an okay counterpick against Hammer/Nazeebo. The rest of the time, he feels pretty squishy. Anub's talents are not what I would call "reactive" -- I considered speccing him differently once or twice and seriously regretted it each time. Beetles are no good and Locust Swarm is almost a requirement because of how hard you get focused.
Brightwing is a hero whose talents are better. Depending on the map and the enemy comp, I think there is an argument to be made for picking 3/4 first tier talents. I don't mean they're perfect, but in the sense that you get different talents based on the map/comp you support/are against, I like Brightwing quite a bit.
Rehgar is another example of what I would consider good hero design. If I'm playing with an assassin who greatly benefits from auto-attack damage, I spec for that talent on tier 1 and it works pretty damn well (25% more damage for three attacks on hammer is no joke). But for some comps, I think you're better off getting healing ward or even going for more offensive talents. If you're just playing for fun and you feel like playing greedier, then you can spec that way! Because of these choices, I think Rehgar is one of the most fun heroes to play for me.
Anub doesn't have a greedy spec; Anub has a "make me relevant" spec.
I would like to see more hero interactions like this, where how you spec a hero should change situationally, and players with greater knowledge of the game would be able to eke out advantages where newer players wouldn't.
I think there are a lot of definitions for good hero design. I would put "reactive talents" at the top of that list, and argue that if a hero has the ability to select talents in response to the players around them, especially in small but noticeable ways, then the game is in a more interesting state of balance and it's a lot more fun to play. It just makes for a more dynamic game.
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On March 17 2015 18:22 Markwerf wrote:
meh double healer has only been popular for a short while now and it's more a meta thing, like double healer makes illidan much better and the healers just happen to be in good spots for also providing other things. If some other heroes are brought back to fine status the double healer 'problem' resolves itself. Besides double healer usually is one of tass or tyrande which i'd hardly call healers, they are more assassin than healer basically.
For example double warrior used to be quite popular for a while but warriors are just too crap now. Bring back some like anub'arak and tyrael which are good second warriors and double warrior is popular soon enough.
The only issue with Illidan is he cannot be killed when he's doing his meta transformation which is BS.
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Is it me or is Uther crap? He has so little impact? Feels like a melee creep with an annoying stun, losing all my games with him ;x. Holy light cooldown feels so high. He really needs an omniknight aura or something it's so hard to get into position without dieing
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Uther crap? Say that when he kills your whole team with Divine storm. lol
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On March 17 2015 23:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Is it me or is Uther crap? He has so little impact? Feels like a melee creep with an annoying stun, losing all my games with him ;x. Holy light cooldown feels so high. He really needs an omniknight aura or something it's so hard to get into position without dieing
Definitely just you. Uther is a beast.
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On March 17 2015 23:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Is it me or is Uther crap? He has so little impact? Feels like a melee creep with an annoying stun, losing all my games with him ;x. Holy light cooldown feels so high. He really needs an omniknight aura or something it's so hard to get into position without dieing
Sprint + Hurricane is a terrifying way to initiate a team fight. Couple that with him having the absolute best burst healing in the game (sans Rehgar ult) he is an absolute nightmare to play against.
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United States22154 Posts
On March 18 2015 00:00 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 23:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Is it me or is Uther crap? He has so little impact? Feels like a melee creep with an annoying stun, losing all my games with him ;x. Holy light cooldown feels so high. He really needs an omniknight aura or something it's so hard to get into position without dieing Definitely just you. Uther is a beast.
I second this, Uther is straight up my favorite support to play.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Uther is dope he's a support that has decent heals and he can always add a lot to the damage total.
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United States22154 Posts
On March 17 2015 23:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Is it me or is Uther crap? He has so little impact? Feels like a melee creep with an annoying stun, losing all my games with him ;x. Holy light cooldown feels so high. He really needs an omniknight aura or something it's so hard to get into position without dieing
Curious, what's your talent build on Uther right now? His cooldowns are tricky, and how you build him matters.
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EPT
