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On November 09 2014 00:16 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 16:32 Kuroeeah wrote:
there's never going to be a popular streamer if there isn't any general interest in the game itself, it's a game that's entering into an oversaturated genre even if is trying to distinguish itself.
if anything i think fans and blizzard will just have to be content with this game being a niche instead of thinking it'll compete in viewership with the other games. i don't think it ever will but that's okay. Well, the game is definitely differentiated and I think it's good enough to be end up being modestly sucecsful. But the "removal" of the indivudal is killing the esport/streaming-potential of this game imo. Since it was the Sc2-team that has worked (for the most part) on Heroes and a lot of the feedback they received was that Sc2 was stressful, I believe they interpreted this as a need for a teamdriven approach where individual mechanical skills is almost irrelevant. However, in my opinion this was a failed diagnosis, and the real issue with Sc2 was the learning barrier. As an example, Heartstone has managed to be succesful despite being an individual game due to its extremely low learning barrier. But at the same time, good Heartstone players can be identified from worse Heartstone players. I said this before, but I still don't see any downside to the easy to learn, difficult to master-design philosophy. Blizzard should allow individuals who are very skilled to shine and stand out. Make it as easy for the audience as possible to be impressed and this will impact viewer numbers positively. I can't think of a single previous esport or sport that has succeeded by "removing" the indivudal from the game. With the implementation of the Lost-vikings, it seems that they do want to reward higher skilled players, but I don't see the amount of actions that players need to perform as the underlying issue. Rather, the underlying issue is how difficult it is for viewers to identify skill due to engagements almost only being about QWER.
It's not just QWER it can be QWER 123 on quite a lot of heroes as a viable build I think you can get up to QWER 1234 but not sure. Either way heroes will get to a point where some heroes are very much skill based and plays can be made, with Illidan plays can be made already and a good Illidan and a bad one is quickly obvious.
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On November 08 2014 23:02 Vaelone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:39 bluQ wrote:On November 08 2014 18:28 paralleluniverse wrote:As previously discussed here (and in the following pages), it has been revealed today that ranked mode uses draft with nothing to equalize the hero pool of both teams. This means people can use real money to buy an advantage by being able to more readily counterpick, which is pay to win. Please feel free to support my thread about this (and possible solutions) on the HotS forum by making a post: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/13922932182Or make your own thread on the HotS forums. Oh no im so shocked. Blizzard wants you to spend money on their game. Do you guys really have that many problems with that? Did you ever played any other MOBA? In EVERY fuckin MOBA you essentially have an advantage with owning all heroes. In DotA 2 you gain straight access to all the 100+ heroes and theres no runes etc. There's absolutely nothing you can buy with real money that would gain you any advantage, no heroes no +0.1% damage, nothing. Yet valve manages to make a shit ton of money just out of cosmetic items and other fun stuff.
That is because 99% of DOTA2 cosmetics (bar Arcanas) are community-driven (Steam workshop >>>>> SCII editor) whereas Blizz needs to spend incredible amount of resources on making new cosmetics thus driving up their prices.
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Mexico2170 Posts
So hey one question, they announced jaina thrall and draft mode but, did they say when they'll be available? Until beta in january or sooner?
Edit: lol just appeared in the maximunblack stream, thank god we won, want my best match tough, but its funny to appear on someoneelses stream.
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On November 09 2014 02:04 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:02 Vaelone wrote:On November 08 2014 20:39 bluQ wrote:On November 08 2014 18:28 paralleluniverse wrote:As previously discussed here (and in the following pages), it has been revealed today that ranked mode uses draft with nothing to equalize the hero pool of both teams. This means people can use real money to buy an advantage by being able to more readily counterpick, which is pay to win. Please feel free to support my thread about this (and possible solutions) on the HotS forum by making a post: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/13922932182Or make your own thread on the HotS forums. Oh no im so shocked. Blizzard wants you to spend money on their game. Do you guys really have that many problems with that? Did you ever played any other MOBA? In EVERY fuckin MOBA you essentially have an advantage with owning all heroes. In DotA 2 you gain straight access to all the 100+ heroes and theres no runes etc. There's absolutely nothing you can buy with real money that would gain you any advantage, no heroes no +0.1% damage, nothing. Yet valve manages to make a shit ton of money just out of cosmetic items and other fun stuff. That is because 99% of DOTA2 cosmetics (bar Arcanas) are community-driven (Steam workshop >>>>> SCII editor) whereas Blizz needs to spend incredible amount of resources on making new cosmetics thus driving up their prices.
What's an incredible amount of resources?
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On November 09 2014 04:01 SilverStar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 02:04 ref4 wrote:On November 08 2014 23:02 Vaelone wrote:On November 08 2014 20:39 bluQ wrote:On November 08 2014 18:28 paralleluniverse wrote:As previously discussed here (and in the following pages), it has been revealed today that ranked mode uses draft with nothing to equalize the hero pool of both teams. This means people can use real money to buy an advantage by being able to more readily counterpick, which is pay to win. Please feel free to support my thread about this (and possible solutions) on the HotS forum by making a post: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/13922932182Or make your own thread on the HotS forums. Oh no im so shocked. Blizzard wants you to spend money on their game. Do you guys really have that many problems with that? Did you ever played any other MOBA? In EVERY fuckin MOBA you essentially have an advantage with owning all heroes. In DotA 2 you gain straight access to all the 100+ heroes and theres no runes etc. There's absolutely nothing you can buy with real money that would gain you any advantage, no heroes no +0.1% damage, nothing. Yet valve manages to make a shit ton of money just out of cosmetic items and other fun stuff. That is because 99% of DOTA2 cosmetics (bar Arcanas) are community-driven (Steam workshop >>>>> SCII editor) whereas Blizz needs to spend incredible amount of resources on making new cosmetics thus driving up their prices. What's an incredible amount of resources?
the opposite of putting minimal amount of resources since your community develops your cosmetics for you
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On November 09 2014 04:55 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 04:01 SilverStar wrote:On November 09 2014 02:04 ref4 wrote:On November 08 2014 23:02 Vaelone wrote:On November 08 2014 20:39 bluQ wrote:On November 08 2014 18:28 paralleluniverse wrote:As previously discussed here (and in the following pages), it has been revealed today that ranked mode uses draft with nothing to equalize the hero pool of both teams. This means people can use real money to buy an advantage by being able to more readily counterpick, which is pay to win. Please feel free to support my thread about this (and possible solutions) on the HotS forum by making a post: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/13922932182Or make your own thread on the HotS forums. Oh no im so shocked. Blizzard wants you to spend money on their game. Do you guys really have that many problems with that? Did you ever played any other MOBA? In EVERY fuckin MOBA you essentially have an advantage with owning all heroes. In DotA 2 you gain straight access to all the 100+ heroes and theres no runes etc. There's absolutely nothing you can buy with real money that would gain you any advantage, no heroes no +0.1% damage, nothing. Yet valve manages to make a shit ton of money just out of cosmetic items and other fun stuff. That is because 99% of DOTA2 cosmetics (bar Arcanas) are community-driven (Steam workshop >>>>> SCII editor) whereas Blizz needs to spend incredible amount of resources on making new cosmetics thus driving up their prices. What's an incredible amount of resources? the opposite of putting minimal amount of resources since your community develops your cosmetics for you
Pretty sure he was just replying to this competely incorrect post
On November 08 2014 20:39 bluQ wrote:
Did you ever played any other MOBA? In EVERY fuckin MOBA you essentially have an advantage with owning all heroes.
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The Heroes model is fine, you can unlock a sizable cast of heroes without spending too much time (through dailies) and the game is only asking you to win 2-3 matches on a specific hero to get all the talent choices available to you.
If anything for me personally, the game is missing that special "hook factor". I don't feel very incentivized at all about trying different talent builds like I do for other games of this genre. I usually play one game of Heroes a month out of boredom, feel content and toss the game aside for something else.
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Just had a 40 Minutes game on Garden of Terror, jesus that was fun ^^ lots of teamfights, never really getting tru to the bases.
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it's weird how complain-y the heroes subreddit and thread are compared to hearthstone, heroes gives you a lot more stuff for free.
like in hearthstone you need to play for months to get tournament-level decks and it only got worse with naxx, but in heroes if you have even a single level 4 hero then the only thing separating you from a pro is skill.
not that either are perfect, in an ideal world everything would be free including skins, but irl companies want to make money.
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On November 09 2014 06:16 Cheren wrote:
it's weird how complain-y the heroes subreddit and thread are compared to hearthstone, heroes gives you a lot more stuff for free.
like in hearthstone you need to play for months to get tournament-level decks and it only got worse with naxx, but in heroes if you have even a single level 4 hero then the only thing separating you from a pro is skill.
not that either are perfect, in an ideal world everything would be free including skins, but irl companies want to make money.
CCGs are all based on the standard that you have to pay to have any cards at all and there is no way to get free cards. Even if this is different in MtGO no one cares because pretty much no one plays that game or online Pokemon, not on the scale of things. The fact that you can even earn free cards is a big plus. Then you add arena mode, where literally all you require is skill and a bit of easily-earnable gold (that you can earn back if you do well) and there are zero constraints on your card selection.
Add to this the fact that Reynad, then Trump, then maybe some other people, all demonstrated that (with skill in arena most people don't have, honestly) you can grind a f2p deck to legendary in one season. Naturally players of similar stature could demonstrate this last point in HotS but no one watches HotS and there isn't even a ladder system yet for it to matter. Blizzard gave a bunch of high-profile streamers first-round access and pretty much all of them quit after like a week at best.
But yes, having all the cards in Hearthstone without paying takes a shitton of work (there are streamers who have had a full library without spending money for several months now but they play a fucking lot and are great at arena), and that's what we're really talking about. But again it comes back to genre and expectations and this is where HS's generous model compared to what people expect from a CCG compares favorably with HotS's model where it is compared to the two main mobas on the market, one of which gives you every hero, with no strings attached, free, and even lets you accumulate cosmetics without ever paying a dime. The other of which is an established giant, the most-played PC game in the world.
So yeah. Different standards, different reactions.
Hell, Arena mode by itself is probably one of the number one reasons people are happy with Hearthstone's model.
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is there any possibility to give access to hots to a real name friend (apart from sharing the account obviously?) i remember there was something recently about it but i'm not sure
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On November 09 2014 06:28 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 06:16 Cheren wrote:
it's weird how complain-y the heroes subreddit and thread are compared to hearthstone, heroes gives you a lot more stuff for free.
like in hearthstone you need to play for months to get tournament-level decks and it only got worse with naxx, but in heroes if you have even a single level 4 hero then the only thing separating you from a pro is skill.
not that either are perfect, in an ideal world everything would be free including skins, but irl companies want to make money. So yeah. Different standards, different reactions. Hell, Arena mode by itself is probably one of the number one reasons people are happy with Hearthstone's model.
Yeah, different standards is essentially what I was noticing. Good point about CCGs though, HS probably has the best CCG model while HotS is kind of between LoL and Dota 2 (talent gating is way less bad than runes/masteries, but you still have to unlock heroes)
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On November 09 2014 06:32 Makro wrote:
is there any possibility to give access to hots to a real name friend (apart from sharing the account obviously?) i remember there was something recently about it but i'm not sure
There was a contest where all your friends would get invites, read more here
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On November 08 2014 19:55 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 19:13 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 08 2014 19:01 GMarshal wrote:On November 08 2014 18:28 paralleluniverse wrote:As previously discussed here (and in the following pages), it has been revealed today that ranked mode uses draft with nothing to equalize the hero pool of both teams. This means people can use real money to buy an advantage by being able to more readily counterpick, which is pay to win. Please feel free to support my thread about this (and possible solutions) on the HotS forum by making a post: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/13922932182Or make your own thread on the HotS forums. Hate to break it to you, but Hearthstone also has a system where spending money is a shortcut for practicing, and I really doubt blizzard is going to do anything about it. Also panel tomorrow at 12:45 which I will be LR again, and I have a bunch of concept art and stuff that I will post as soon as I can. Yes, Hearthstone is also pay to win. In fact, given that no game lets you literally win for paying money, Hearthstone is arguably the most extreme form of P2W on the market. Remember the epic "Pay to Win" thread on day 1 of the official Hearthstone forums? I wrote it. You give yourself so much importance... I'm positive nobody here remembers that thread, man. Also, it proves what little impact you have, because Hearthstone's model hasn't moved by an inch. Blizzard's stance on HotS is here to stay. Seriously, can we talk about the damn game? Can you? I genuinely do not recall the last time you made a post about the game itself - about a game you played, or whatever - instead of some rant about the business model, or some nonsense about skill cap. Let it go, let go of your self-importance, and enjoy the damn game already.
That's because making Hearthstone not pay to win would undermine the entire business model. But making HotS not pay to win requires no change to the business model.
There's nothing to talk about with the game. The game is fine, the gameplay is the pinnacle of excellence in MOBA design, despite Dota 2 players being too blinded to see this obvious fact. That's why I don't talk about the game much anymore: nothing more to add.
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The game was added out of nowhere to my account yesterday. Will I get trash talked if I join a game? I have close to none experience with such games.
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On November 09 2014 06:57 JazVM wrote:
The game was added out of nowhere to my account yesterday. Will I get trash talked if I join a game? I have close to none experience with such games.
At the very least you won't get trash talked from the opposing team because you can never chat with them in-game.
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just give it a try. there are a lot of new players. even if someone may flame you, just ignore him (not saying that it will happen)
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It's not just QWER it can be QWER 123 on quite a lot of heroes as a viable build I think you can get up to QWER 1234 but not sure. Either way heroes will get to a point where some heroes are very much skill based and plays can be made, with Illidan plays can be made already and a good Illidan and a bad one is quickly obvious.
Illidan was actually my main hero when I played, I got up to like 3.5K mmr after 30 games with him (he is so good at punishing players who positions them selves poorly), but I felt I just spammed abillities every X second and quckly got bored. Then I went back to Fizz in League which has a similar role to Illidan and is considered a "mid"-difficulty champion, and feel like that there are an almost infinitve ways I can improve my mechanical skills (but ofc I am also a noob in the game). Obviously last-hitting in League raises the mechanical requirement a bit, but from my point of view there is also a lot more depht on how to use his abilities and movement optimally.
Do you have any link to a video of impressive Illidan play that an average player cannot easily execute himself?
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On November 09 2014 06:52 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 19:55 Spaylz wrote:On November 08 2014 19:13 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 08 2014 19:01 GMarshal wrote:On November 08 2014 18:28 paralleluniverse wrote:As previously discussed here (and in the following pages), it has been revealed today that ranked mode uses draft with nothing to equalize the hero pool of both teams. This means people can use real money to buy an advantage by being able to more readily counterpick, which is pay to win. Please feel free to support my thread about this (and possible solutions) on the HotS forum by making a post: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/13922932182Or make your own thread on the HotS forums. Hate to break it to you, but Hearthstone also has a system where spending money is a shortcut for practicing, and I really doubt blizzard is going to do anything about it. Also panel tomorrow at 12:45 which I will be LR again, and I have a bunch of concept art and stuff that I will post as soon as I can. Yes, Hearthstone is also pay to win. In fact, given that no game lets you literally win for paying money, Hearthstone is arguably the most extreme form of P2W on the market. Remember the epic "Pay to Win" thread on day 1 of the official Hearthstone forums? I wrote it. You give yourself so much importance... I'm positive nobody here remembers that thread, man. Also, it proves what little impact you have, because Hearthstone's model hasn't moved by an inch. Blizzard's stance on HotS is here to stay. Seriously, can we talk about the damn game? Can you? I genuinely do not recall the last time you made a post about the game itself - about a game you played, or whatever - instead of some rant about the business model, or some nonsense about skill cap. Let it go, let go of your self-importance, and enjoy the damn game already. That's because making Hearthstone not pay to win would undermine the entire business model. But making HotS not pay to win requires no change to the business model. There's nothing to talk about with the game. The game is fine, the gameplay is the pinnacle of excellence in MOBA design, despite Dota 2 players being too blinded to see this obvious fact. That's why I don't talk about the game much anymore: nothing more to add.
There are some great ideas but they all have significant trade-offs. What is "better" in game design terms is pretty subjective and only worth discussing with that squarely in mind. For example I love the fact that map variety is core to the game but there are trade-offs even to this, such as the way heroes are balanced, or the fact that many prefer the focus on one finely tuned map. And that is I think the most "no shit" design improvement of HotS, which is why I use it to illustrate that everything is relative.
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On November 09 2014 07:00 RaiKageRyu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 06:57 JazVM wrote:
The game was added out of nowhere to my account yesterday. Will I get trash talked if I join a game? I have close to none experience with such games. At the very least you won't get trash talked from the opposing team because you can never chat with them in-game.
In ~500 hours on Dota 2, I have NEVER been trashed talked by the opposing team. It never happens. You opposing team has no reason to be pissed at you for playing badly, in fact, they want you to play badly. On the other hand, it sometimes happens from your team, if you're playing badly and feeding
This is why having no cross-team chat, but having within-team chat is so stupid and pointless. Ass-backwards.
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EPT
