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On October 18 2014 05:19 Diamond wrote:
Couple things imo:
1: I know this one is a bit hard for DoTA fans, but just because DoTA has all champs free does not mean every moba needs it. The unlocking model for champs has been wildly successful for LoL and seems like a reasonable model to try and copy. I know this concept seems weird to DoTA players, but in theory if the gold gains are right, it's a not bad concept. I know when I tried DoTA the sheer number of champions available to pick was VERY overwhelming for me. As a LoL player unlocking heroes for me seems natural and no complaints about the concept
2: You CANNOT farm a 6800 IP champ in LoL in 2-3 days. With a 50%~ winrate it's MUCH longer. Last I played LoL you get about 100-150 IP per game, with a double for first win. Unless you are hammering out 20-30 games a day, it's multiple weeks on average per champ.
3: Gold gain needs to be upped, no two ways around that, it's WAYYYYY to low at the moment.
4: Also agree hero prices in this game seem too high. An overabundance of $9.99 champs in particular seem to be the main offenders. The way also their gold/dollar conversion works too you end up punished for buying cheaper champs with $$.
5: Don't understand how "gated hero pool leads to balancing problems, especially as they expand the roster".
Just some thoughts.
I read somewhere that Riot made the cheapest champions the easiest to learn champions, and thus reduced the learning curve. I think this is a pretty smart model, and I think its actually benficial for new players that options are reduced.
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Yea and it appears to be somewhat similar for Heroes, but right now there is so many 7k/10k champs it's a bit overwhelming.
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2,000: 6
4,000: 5
7,000: 10
10,000: 10
Pretty ridiculous spread.
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Yep that's what I just said.
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On October 18 2014 05:19 Diamond wrote:
2: You CANNOT farm a 6800 IP champ in LoL in 2-3 days. With a 50%~ winrate it's MUCH longer. Last I played LoL you get about 100-150 IP per game, with a double for first win. Unless you are hammering out 20-30 games a day, it's multiple weeks on average per champ.
2-3 days is about right if you are farming. The difference with heroes, for what i am reading here, is that you can't farm for the heroes, because you are cockblocked by the low rewards from the games you play itself, so instead you are relying on dailies as your main source of income.
And that's bad for the hardcore gamer who wants to grind.
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On October 18 2014 05:49 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 05:19 Diamond wrote:
2: You CANNOT farm a 6800 IP champ in LoL in 2-3 days. With a 50%~ winrate it's MUCH longer. Last I played LoL you get about 100-150 IP per game, with a double for first win. Unless you are hammering out 20-30 games a day, it's multiple weeks on average per champ.
2-3 days is about right if you are farming. The difference with heroes, for what i am reading here, is that you can't farm for the heroes, because you are cockblocked by the low rewards from the games you play itself, so instead you are relying on dailies as your main source of income. And that's bad for the hardcore gamer who wants to grind.
Pretty much 2-3 days is what i farm one in if im really actively trying to farm for one(6300 obv)
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On October 18 2014 05:42 Serejai wrote:
2,000: 6
4,000: 5
7,000: 10
10,000: 10
Pretty ridiculous spread.
Yeh in League the cheapest champions are 450 which is like 3-4 games. Tbh I would just replicate League's model completely here with the exception of unlocking runes/masteries. Feels pretty pointless.
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On October 18 2014 05:19 Diamond wrote:
Couple things imo:
1: I know this one is a bit hard for DoTA fans, but just because DoTA has all champs free does not mean every moba needs it. The unlocking model for champs has been wildly successful for LoL and seems like a reasonable model to try and copy. I know this concept seems weird to DoTA players, but in theory if the gold gains are right, it's a not bad concept. I know when I tried DoTA the sheer number of champions available to pick was VERY overwhelming for me. As a LoL player unlocking heroes for me seems natural and no complaints about the concept
This is the kind of stuff you'd expect from a psychotic blizzard apologist, don't be that weirdo. As a consumer, you should only champion Dota's F2P model because it's the very best for you. Arguing that too many options or having the entire game free and unlocked is some how a negative is baffling. Having access to a lot of heroes up front can certainly be intimidating, but there are a million ways to deal with it without putting features behind a pay/grind gate.
here are 3 ways I just made up and I'm not even a game developer.
1) List easy to learn heroes first on pick screen
2) Highlight Heroes in terms of mechanical difficulty green/yellow/red
3) Allow user to select their estimated skill/comfortability of moba game play upon installation (dota already does this when assessing starting MMR) and then suggest heroes
Regardless of personal preference in game play between Dota, LoL, HoTS, as a consumer, Dota absolutely crushes in their F2P model in comparison.
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A general formula for LoL averages about 70 ip for each game, averages over 35 minutes a game. At 2 ip a minute we need to play 3000 minutes for a 6300 price champ (assuming 2 win of the days), which is 50 hours. While thats in theory doable in 3 days. 50 hours is more than most people work a week for a champ thats around 10 dollars.
Basically the entire system is ridiculous if you look it from a "unlocking a full game" perspective. Think of it as the equiavlent of sc2 where you can only play 1 race
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Stockholm syndrome dude.
Also diamond is probably the most professionally invested person in HoTS outside of blizzard so 
Anyway, for all you non-dota players: just imagine if SC2 was free to play but you had to pay real money to unlock marines, then more to unlock marauders, etc etc. But there were free units every week. Or you could play 50 hours of only zergling rushes from 6-pool in order to unlock roaches *for free wow*. You'd be pretty disappointed in the business model regardless of how good a game it was.
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You do get to play an entire hero as opposed to parts of a hero, so the 5 pool analogy only applies until you unlock all the talents. Think of it more like sc2 where you only get one race, but a new race is made every month thats more or less the same besides being slightly more overpowered to keep people buying
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I'm aware that my analogy isn't perfect its more about how restrictive it feels as a dota player.
Besides which u dont' get to play an entire hero until you grind it due to talents
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well the idea is that the entire system is ridiculous enough that there's no need to misrepresent it to make it look worse
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Now talent gating is something I can get behind on hating, that is so stupid. I thought the original talent gate was ok where your account was gated till lvl 8 (which back then was maybe a dozen games at most), but this new model sucks.
SC2 comparison's dont work here. Compare to another MOBA, maybe say one that already uses the same exact model as is the most played game in the world? If the model was so bad how do you explain the rampant success of LoL????
Myself I don't care, I would LOVE everything to be free Hero wise, but I get that a F2P MOBA needs a good model to make money. I saw SC2 get shit for dev support because they made things free aside for the base game. They had no incentive to make new and interesting content until the expansions. Things like people buying Heroes will allow that support.
I do hope however they copy a lot of things outside the game from DoTA like event tickets and such, those are such good ideas.
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Football (Soccer) is the most popular game on earth by a wide margin.
Therefore video review of penalties/goals etc as well as a stop-and-go clock that handles stoppage time properly are awful ideas for, say, hockey, cuz look soccer doesn't have them and its popular.
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LoL's model was actually quite reasonable at the beginning, all of the initial champs were very cheap and one could buy the entirety in a pack for around $20. Its only after the game built up momentum and fanbase that it was able to switch to the more ridiculous model wheras blizzard is trying to put the chicken before the egg and sending people into a brick wall here.
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On October 18 2014 06:16 Sn0_Man wrote:
Football (Soccer) is the most popular game on earth by a wide margin.
Therefore video review of penalties/goals etc as well as a stop-and-go clock that handles stoppage time properly are awful ideas for, say, hockey, cuz look soccer doesn't have them and its popular.
Business model.
On October 18 2014 06:18 Kupon3ss wrote:
LoL's model was actually quite reasonable at the beginning, all of the initial champs were very cheap and one could buy the entirety in a pack for around $20. Its only after the game built up momentum and fanbase that it was able to switch to the more ridiculous model wheras blizzard is trying to put the chicken before the egg and sending people into a brick wall here.
Yet that model did not work worth a shit. I almost bought that all inclusive LoL box in a store about 100 times but the $20 for something I might hate (did not play MOBA's then) stopped me from doing so. When it went to the new model it exploded. Was it 100% the model? No ofc not, things like refer-a-friend helped a lot. But if the model was SO flawed then LoL should be a dead game at this time.
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Compare to another MOBA, maybe say one that already uses the same exact model as is the most played game in the world? If the model was so bad how do you explain the rampant success of LoL????
Welp, I'm out.
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On October 18 2014 06:13 Diamond wrote:
Now talent gating is something I can get behind on hating, that is so stupid. I thought the original talent gate was ok where your account was gated till lvl 8 (which back then was maybe a dozen games at most), but this new model sucks.
SC2 comparison's dont work here. Compare to another MOBA, maybe say one that already uses the same exact model as is the most played game in the world? If the model was so bad how do you explain the rampant success of LoL????
Myself I don't care, I would LOVE everything to be free Hero wise, but I get that a F2P MOBA needs a good model to make money. I saw SC2 get shit for dev support because they made things free aside for the base game. They had no incentive to make new and interesting content until the expansions. Things like people buying Heroes will allow that support.
I do hope however they copy a lot of things outside the game from DoTA like event tickets and such, those are such good ideas.
Don't really think you can copy stuff outside of Dota if you aren't going to implement the core design philosophy. People won't spend their money on tickets etc. if they have to spend their money to unlock the game.
The LoL model is like it is because people didn't know there was a better model at the time. Dota has shown you can have a vastly superior model that still nets them more average monetization. There's no real reason for games post Dota to not implement that model unless you don't want to put in the time post release to keep pumping out new cosmetics.
One has to realize LoL got the fanbase it did due to it's timing and some design decisions. WoW actually shows this pretty well where they secured their fanbase then kept implementing more and more ridiculous business practices. Having a subscription model and then still having micro-transactions. LoL can do whatever they wand as they are the biggest. Claiming that LoL's success means the model is good seems to gloss over a lot of external factors that made LoL big.
You have to see what the target base is. In Heroes it's first and foremost a casual game, in fact I'd say it's the casualist MOBA out there or at least that's what they trying to sell it as. Putting in all these huge barriers either to do things, give you a shitton of money(Cell phone games) or kill your game. There's no inbetween. The large difference is that this isn't a cellphone game. This isn't something you play while idling on a bus or train. It's something you sit at the PC and dedicated a large chunk of time. The person playing that is in a fundamentally different mindset than that of a cellphone game so trying to copy the model people use on cellphones sounds like a terrible thing to do.
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Ok well I don't want to drag this into LoL vs DoTA so I'll back out. I think the model is fine and not everyone has to copy DoTA, but I get where this model is very weird for DoTA players. However it is a model that currently works better for LoL and has turned Riot from a small studio into a global juggernaut. It can and has worked.
I do agree talent gating is lame as shit, and there needs to be more cheaper heroes, as the current model has way too many 7k/10k.
On a final note, I may be in the scene, but I think my past history shows I have no qualms slamming a game or company if I don't agree with it. I spent years pissing off everyone by calling out their shit map pools in SC2 and have even bashed Blizz in public over handling of Blizzcon.
Anyways just was my 2 cents, hope maybe it brought some insight from the LoL side of things.
<3 <3
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EPT
