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On August 12 2014 19:25 lprk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 18:43 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 12 2014 18:33 Velr wrote:
Which hostiliy?
Have you seen Ti4?
Dota atm is faster/more fight oriented than it probably ever was... Carries you don't see "until much later in the game" are basically an endangered species.
Yeah, the first 10 minutes are normally still not really about teamfighting (but there are constant small fights going on, just not full on 5on5's normally)... But that doesn't dimish the amount of teamplay required.
Having your heroes constantly in a gang of 5 does not make a game more teamplay oriented, it just makes it more teamfight oriented. Thats not the same thing. Sorry, it felt like you were getting irritated by my statement. Not sure if I'm just oversensitive or you just come off as a bit strong. I'm not sure it is fair to compare Dota 2's current competitive meta, which was years in the making, with HOTS which has an incomplete roster and no professional competition as of yet. We can compare their gave direction and emphasis on game mechanics as those are pretty much laid out from the get-go. It's both the idea of stressing the need to remain as 5 for objectives as well as the lack of diversity of individual players (no individual levels, items, kills or separation between team achievements and player competency). So you're right that it doesn't make a game more teamplay oriented, but you're wrong because of how you narrow it down to just that when it's both the objective-based team-fighting that comes around every 6-7 minutes as well as the lack of individuality that equates to more team-fights, more emphasis on communication and less individuality in all aspects. I don't know what were you smoking while writing that, in every moba even when not teamfightning you need to communicate so forcing more teamfights doesn't make you communicate more.
Probably whatever you're smoking because I specifically stated it was a combination of two aspects of the game that stresses/emphasizes communication over other games.
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On August 12 2014 20:51 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 19:25 lprk wrote:On August 12 2014 18:43 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 12 2014 18:33 Velr wrote:
Which hostiliy?
Have you seen Ti4?
Dota atm is faster/more fight oriented than it probably ever was... Carries you don't see "until much later in the game" are basically an endangered species.
Yeah, the first 10 minutes are normally still not really about teamfighting (but there are constant small fights going on, just not full on 5on5's normally)... But that doesn't dimish the amount of teamplay required.
Having your heroes constantly in a gang of 5 does not make a game more teamplay oriented, it just makes it more teamfight oriented. Thats not the same thing. Sorry, it felt like you were getting irritated by my statement. Not sure if I'm just oversensitive or you just come off as a bit strong. I'm not sure it is fair to compare Dota 2's current competitive meta, which was years in the making, with HOTS which has an incomplete roster and no professional competition as of yet. We can compare their gave direction and emphasis on game mechanics as those are pretty much laid out from the get-go. It's both the idea of stressing the need to remain as 5 for objectives as well as the lack of diversity of individual players (no individual levels, items, kills or separation between team achievements and player competency). So you're right that it doesn't make a game more teamplay oriented, but you're wrong because of how you narrow it down to just that when it's both the objective-based team-fighting that comes around every 6-7 minutes as well as the lack of individuality that equates to more team-fights, more emphasis on communication and less individuality in all aspects. I don't know what were you smoking while writing that, in every moba even when not teamfightning you need to communicate so forcing more teamfights doesn't make you communicate more. Probably whatever you're smoking because I specifically stated it was a combination of two aspects of the game that stresses/emphasizes communication over other games.
Except it doesn't, the other games require as much communication as HotS
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On August 12 2014 20:56 lprk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 20:51 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 12 2014 19:25 lprk wrote:On August 12 2014 18:43 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 12 2014 18:33 Velr wrote:
Which hostiliy?
Have you seen Ti4?
Dota atm is faster/more fight oriented than it probably ever was... Carries you don't see "until much later in the game" are basically an endangered species.
Yeah, the first 10 minutes are normally still not really about teamfighting (but there are constant small fights going on, just not full on 5on5's normally)... But that doesn't dimish the amount of teamplay required.
Having your heroes constantly in a gang of 5 does not make a game more teamplay oriented, it just makes it more teamfight oriented. Thats not the same thing. Sorry, it felt like you were getting irritated by my statement. Not sure if I'm just oversensitive or you just come off as a bit strong. I'm not sure it is fair to compare Dota 2's current competitive meta, which was years in the making, with HOTS which has an incomplete roster and no professional competition as of yet. We can compare their gave direction and emphasis on game mechanics as those are pretty much laid out from the get-go. It's both the idea of stressing the need to remain as 5 for objectives as well as the lack of diversity of individual players (no individual levels, items, kills or separation between team achievements and player competency). So you're right that it doesn't make a game more teamplay oriented, but you're wrong because of how you narrow it down to just that when it's both the objective-based team-fighting that comes around every 6-7 minutes as well as the lack of individuality that equates to more team-fights, more emphasis on communication and less individuality in all aspects. I don't know what were you smoking while writing that, in every moba even when not teamfightning you need to communicate so forcing more teamfights doesn't make you communicate more. Probably whatever you're smoking because I specifically stated it was a combination of two aspects of the game that stresses/emphasizes communication over other games. Except it doesn't, the other games require as much communication as HotS
I think the communication and cooperation is more diverse in other MOBAs, but stressed more in HOTS.
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On August 12 2014 21:03 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 20:56 lprk wrote:On August 12 2014 20:51 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 12 2014 19:25 lprk wrote:On August 12 2014 18:43 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 12 2014 18:33 Velr wrote:
Which hostiliy?
Have you seen Ti4?
Dota atm is faster/more fight oriented than it probably ever was... Carries you don't see "until much later in the game" are basically an endangered species.
Yeah, the first 10 minutes are normally still not really about teamfighting (but there are constant small fights going on, just not full on 5on5's normally)... But that doesn't dimish the amount of teamplay required.
Having your heroes constantly in a gang of 5 does not make a game more teamplay oriented, it just makes it more teamfight oriented. Thats not the same thing. Sorry, it felt like you were getting irritated by my statement. Not sure if I'm just oversensitive or you just come off as a bit strong. I'm not sure it is fair to compare Dota 2's current competitive meta, which was years in the making, with HOTS which has an incomplete roster and no professional competition as of yet. We can compare their gave direction and emphasis on game mechanics as those are pretty much laid out from the get-go. It's both the idea of stressing the need to remain as 5 for objectives as well as the lack of diversity of individual players (no individual levels, items, kills or separation between team achievements and player competency). So you're right that it doesn't make a game more teamplay oriented, but you're wrong because of how you narrow it down to just that when it's both the objective-based team-fighting that comes around every 6-7 minutes as well as the lack of individuality that equates to more team-fights, more emphasis on communication and less individuality in all aspects. I don't know what were you smoking while writing that, in every moba even when not teamfightning you need to communicate so forcing more teamfights doesn't make you communicate more. Probably whatever you're smoking because I specifically stated it was a combination of two aspects of the game that stresses/emphasizes communication over other games. Except it doesn't, the other games require as much communication as HotS I think the communication and cooperation is more diverse in other MOBAs, but stressed more in HOTS.
If it was stressed more people would communicate, so far I played 50games and other people do it rarely.
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On August 12 2014 21:11 lprk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 21:03 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 12 2014 20:56 lprk wrote:On August 12 2014 20:51 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 12 2014 19:25 lprk wrote:On August 12 2014 18:43 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 12 2014 18:33 Velr wrote:
Which hostiliy?
Have you seen Ti4?
Dota atm is faster/more fight oriented than it probably ever was... Carries you don't see "until much later in the game" are basically an endangered species.
Yeah, the first 10 minutes are normally still not really about teamfighting (but there are constant small fights going on, just not full on 5on5's normally)... But that doesn't dimish the amount of teamplay required.
Having your heroes constantly in a gang of 5 does not make a game more teamplay oriented, it just makes it more teamfight oriented. Thats not the same thing. Sorry, it felt like you were getting irritated by my statement. Not sure if I'm just oversensitive or you just come off as a bit strong. I'm not sure it is fair to compare Dota 2's current competitive meta, which was years in the making, with HOTS which has an incomplete roster and no professional competition as of yet. We can compare their gave direction and emphasis on game mechanics as those are pretty much laid out from the get-go. It's both the idea of stressing the need to remain as 5 for objectives as well as the lack of diversity of individual players (no individual levels, items, kills or separation between team achievements and player competency). So you're right that it doesn't make a game more teamplay oriented, but you're wrong because of how you narrow it down to just that when it's both the objective-based team-fighting that comes around every 6-7 minutes as well as the lack of individuality that equates to more team-fights, more emphasis on communication and less individuality in all aspects. I don't know what were you smoking while writing that, in every moba even when not teamfightning you need to communicate so forcing more teamfights doesn't make you communicate more. Probably whatever you're smoking because I specifically stated it was a combination of two aspects of the game that stresses/emphasizes communication over other games. Except it doesn't, the other games require as much communication as HotS I think the communication and cooperation is more diverse in other MOBAs, but stressed more in HOTS. If it was stressed more people would communicate, so far I played 50games and other people do it rarely.
and I played 50 games where people did it a lot.
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Communication in my HOTS matches is nearly as bad as the communication between you two.
Anyway, there's zero communication in public matches. It's basically whichever team decides to deathball wins. There's very little, if anything, you can do as a solo queue player to change the outcome of a game. Group queue is a different matter, though, as the team with the best communication will generally win in a deathball vs deathball game (although hero composition is a big factor as well).
The only real communication is "our abathur is a retard" or "our murky is fucking terrible", and the occasional "fuck you faggot, who made you leader?" when you ask your teammates to group up or push something.
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I'm not sure how we're deviating from my point which was speaking anecdotal but from a more design area. I would rather discuss that than compare/contrast everyone's sample size of 50 games.
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Well, you're right and you're wrong.
You're right that this game emphasizes communication more than other MOBAs because, honestly, there's not much else to emphasize. The game is so basic and has absolutely no depth to it - it's basically 5v5 WoW arenas with some towers and creeps added in for no apparent reason. They could remove towers, creeps, objectives, exp... and the game would feel exactly the same. So, since team fights are pretty much all there is that heavily encourages communication.
At the same time it's not like other games don't emphasize communication; it's just that they offer so many ways to play without it that it is less meaningful in the grand scheme of things. It would be stupid to claim that communication doesn't matter in a tournament game, but certainly when you solo queue you can win just fine without ever saying a word.
I would say the amount of communication required in LoL/DOTA is more than in HOTS, but the amount it affects the outcome of a match is far greater in HOTS.
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I don't think I implied other games doesn't demand communication, just HOTS stresses it a lot.
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While the amount of communication that's the "baseline" for the game to operate as intended is a bit higher in that the team needs to bunch up even in the lowest level games, the amount of "meaningful team communication" and choices aren't any higher and are probably lower due to its lack of variety.
There really isn't significant team-based decision making like long-term strategic planning, map composition, farm allocation, meaningful laning choices, role development etc that other game's contain. Sure, teams generally yell more things during a teamfight and "communicating" in that singular form is stressed in HotS, but it might only be that necessity of needing to communicate even at the lowest levels compared to his experience with dota/lol that makes the difference to torte.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 12 2014 20:51 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 19:25 lprk wrote:On August 12 2014 18:43 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 12 2014 18:33 Velr wrote:
Which hostiliy?
Have you seen Ti4?
Dota atm is faster/more fight oriented than it probably ever was... Carries you don't see "until much later in the game" are basically an endangered species.
Yeah, the first 10 minutes are normally still not really about teamfighting (but there are constant small fights going on, just not full on 5on5's normally)... But that doesn't dimish the amount of teamplay required.
Having your heroes constantly in a gang of 5 does not make a game more teamplay oriented, it just makes it more teamfight oriented. Thats not the same thing. Sorry, it felt like you were getting irritated by my statement. Not sure if I'm just oversensitive or you just come off as a bit strong. I'm not sure it is fair to compare Dota 2's current competitive meta, which was years in the making, with HOTS which has an incomplete roster and no professional competition as of yet. We can compare their gave direction and emphasis on game mechanics as those are pretty much laid out from the get-go. It's both the idea of stressing the need to remain as 5 for objectives as well as the lack of diversity of individual players (no individual levels, items, kills or separation between team achievements and player competency). So you're right that it doesn't make a game more teamplay oriented, but you're wrong because of how you narrow it down to just that when it's both the objective-based team-fighting that comes around every 6-7 minutes as well as the lack of individuality that equates to more team-fights, more emphasis on communication and less individuality in all aspects. I don't know what were you smoking while writing that, in every moba even when not teamfightning you need to communicate so forcing more teamfights doesn't make you communicate more. Probably whatever you're smoking because I specifically stated it was a combination of two aspects of the game that stresses/emphasizes communication over other games.
No way HotS has more communication than LoL... how are you going to complain about your team to your opponents without all-chat!? xd
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I REALLY WANT THAT FEATURE SO BAD.
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Apparently I just got banned from matchmaking queue for disconnecting from my last game and being unable to rejoin (it just stuck on the loading screen). Anyone know how long that lasts?
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
So basically it all goes down to...you can't ever 1v5 the enemy team, therefore you HAVE to communicate, therefore HotS requires more communication than Dota/LoL?
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On August 12 2014 23:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 20:51 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 12 2014 19:25 lprk wrote:On August 12 2014 18:43 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 12 2014 18:33 Velr wrote:
Which hostiliy?
Have you seen Ti4?
Dota atm is faster/more fight oriented than it probably ever was... Carries you don't see "until much later in the game" are basically an endangered species.
Yeah, the first 10 minutes are normally still not really about teamfighting (but there are constant small fights going on, just not full on 5on5's normally)... But that doesn't dimish the amount of teamplay required.
Having your heroes constantly in a gang of 5 does not make a game more teamplay oriented, it just makes it more teamfight oriented. Thats not the same thing. Sorry, it felt like you were getting irritated by my statement. Not sure if I'm just oversensitive or you just come off as a bit strong. I'm not sure it is fair to compare Dota 2's current competitive meta, which was years in the making, with HOTS which has an incomplete roster and no professional competition as of yet. We can compare their gave direction and emphasis on game mechanics as those are pretty much laid out from the get-go. It's both the idea of stressing the need to remain as 5 for objectives as well as the lack of diversity of individual players (no individual levels, items, kills or separation between team achievements and player competency). So you're right that it doesn't make a game more teamplay oriented, but you're wrong because of how you narrow it down to just that when it's both the objective-based team-fighting that comes around every 6-7 minutes as well as the lack of individuality that equates to more team-fights, more emphasis on communication and less individuality in all aspects. I don't know what were you smoking while writing that, in every moba even when not teamfightning you need to communicate so forcing more teamfights doesn't make you communicate more. Probably whatever you're smoking because I specifically stated it was a combination of two aspects of the game that stresses/emphasizes communication over other games. No way HotS has more communication than LoL... how are you going to complain about your team to your opponents without all-chat!? xd
Not more of something, but designed to emphasize further in a constructive way.
On August 12 2014 23:43 ahswtini wrote:
So basically it all goes down to...you can't ever 1v5 the enemy team, therefore you HAVE to communicate, therefore HotS requires more communication than Dota/LoL?
No? I summarized it twice already. Why do you want to further narrow the conclusion into a context that doesn't say remotely to what I'm saying?
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Basically what torte is saying is that he can choose not to communicate in dota/lol but is unable to do so in Hots and still play the game in a meaningful way, therefore Hots must have more communication
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I disagree with that entirely. I go out of my way to not communicate with my teammates in any MOBA game (because they're all toxic as shit) and I'm actually finding it better in HOTS.
Hear me out... in HOTS if there's no communication it's not all that bad. Sure, deathballs win games but I know that Nova on the other team isn't going to 1v5 us, and all heroes are roughly equal in a teamfight so there's not too much reason to focus someone down.
On the other hand, in LoL or DOTA it's pretty essential to focus fire a hero during a teamfight. If you do it wrong then their carry ends up destroying your entire team solo.
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Katowice25012 Posts
This is pretty great and I almost want to make a new thread on it but not really worth it, AcE, CrazyMoving, Kong, Noblesse, and sC have announced a Heroes team.
Hello everyone, I have some good news for you.
I finally am coming back after 3 years of long absense with Heroes of the Storm.
It adds freshness to the original AOS genre with blizzards special heroes, various of map objects, and outstanding special systems
There are quite a few team created already looking forward to many tournaments that lay ahead us.
Since Korea is the leading e-sports scene in the world, we want to announce our team to you all.
Here are the members of Team NL who will look forward to challange the world of Heroes of the Storm
Team No Limit
Wooseo Chung `AcE` Supporter (Captain)
Gisu Han `CrazyMoving` Assassin
Junyeong Son `kong` Assassin
Dojun Chae `Nobless` Warrior
Seungchul Kim `sC` Warrior
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The thing about "communication" is...
In a Teamfight, there actually shouldn't be THAT much communication. The communication should happen right before the actual fight and during the poking (we want to teamfight? Where ? Who initiates, if it isn’t clear ? Who to focus ? GOOO ?).
As soon as the teamfight starts people should/have to mostly play for themselves (if it doesn’t drag out and gets really chaotic).
The teamplay aspect outside of teamfights is actually themore interesting/strategic part… Who farms where ? When ? Which tower to push ? Defend or Trade ? Gank ? Rosh ?... Thats way more exciting than « there is objective XYZ, guess we have to go teamfight now ».
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EPT
