Last year, EA’s now-infamous title Star Wars Battlefront II gave players the chance to avoid a 40-hour grind to get certain strong characters, such as Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker, through purchasing loot boxes that had a random chance of containing them.
As you are probably aware, the backlash against EA was gigantic. Gamers hated the fact that the most fun and iconic characters were effectively locked behind a paywall – a paywall that once breached only gave you a small chance of getting the Jedi or Sith you wanted. Otherwise you had to slog through the game at a painfully slow rate, spending dozens of hours, in order to access the best that the game had to offer.
Sound familiar? Hearthstone players are well accustomed to being at the mercy of RNGesus both in game and while opening card packs. We often face a hefty grind to get the cards we want. Unless you spend a lot of time farming gold, where your wins and pace of gold-gathering is also partially decided by RNG, it’s unlikely that you’ll be able to play the cool decks you see streamers playing.
We are incentivised to pay real money to buy packs. These packs can either be almost useless (40 dust) or they can contain powerful Legendary cards. Essentially, each pack is a minigame in which we either win big with cool cards or get next to nothing. Or you can use your valuable time to grind out those cool cards – which still aren’t guaranteed. Viewed this way, it’s hard to see how pack opening is different to EA’s despised loot boxes.
If you’re reading this, you probably know just how addictive opening packs can be. It’s designed to be a fun experience, yes – but it’s also engineered in a variety of ways to make you want as many packs as you can possibly have. The exciting glow that reveals the card’s rarity before you click. The colourful and visually pleasing graphics. The relative cheapness of each individual pack, allowing you to open at least a couple every day, alongside freebies from the likes of Tavern Brawl and daily quests.
Activision Blizzard wants to get us hooked. Like a slot machine, we all want to press the button and see what we win, again and again.
After the Battlefront II fiasco, a number of European gambling regulators announced that they were looking into the relationship between loot boxes and gambling. France, Belgium, and the Netherlands all examined whether these random digital prize chests count as ‘games of chance’. They are now regarded as illegal gambling by these governments, including Australia.
Blizzard did not escape from this crackdown. Overwatch, which also sells loot crates as ways to acquire skins and other cosmetic items, was declared in April to be in breach of Belgian gambling laws. They risk an €800,000 fine, largely because of the game’s appeal to children: “It is often children who come into contact with such systems and we cannot allow that,” said Belgian minister of justice Koen Greens.
What does that mean for Hearthstone, the well-known “children’s card game”, if Overwatch loot boxes have landed Blizzard in hot regulatory water - even though they only give cosmetic items that don’t boost in-game performance like Legendaries do? Are card packs the same as loot boxes?
Developers are worried. EA quickly dropped loot boxes from their game. There were even reports that the CEO of Disney had called up his EA counterpart in a rage to demand that loot boxes be removed. In comments to GameSpot, the Battlefront developers insisted that “the crate mechanics of [the game] are not gambling. A player’s ability to succeed in the game is not dependent on purchasing crates. Players can also earn crates through playing the game and not spending any money at all.”
One US senator from Hawaii even described the game as “predatory”, adding that “this game is a Star-Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money. It’s a trap.”
The similarity here to Hearthstone is certainly disturbing. The light-hearted and bubbly aesthetic, a world away from the grittiness of World of Warcraft, certainly appeals to all ages. Unlike Overwatch or Battlefront, Hearthstone can be also played on phones and tablets, which is where younger people (and the money) are. It’s just as easy to spend £2.99 on packs as it is to spend much larger amounts like £79.99, as we saw in the recent pre-expansion promotions.
Despite all this, there is no real risk of Hearthstone being labelled as gambling alongside Overwatch, Dota 2, and Battlefront. Significant debate exists among government regulators about whether loot boxes - and card packs - are really gambling. The UK Gambling Commission, for example, disagrees with Belgium or the Netherlands and regards them as distinctly “not gambling”. The key difference is that games like Dota 2, Counter-Strike, and FIFA, another EA game with very similar RNG-based pack openings, have items that can be exchanged on a marketplace in-game. You can trade your rare items that you got from loot boxes for other items, as part of a digital economy. Each rare skin thus has a tangible value that can be sold for a profit, and then sold to a third party IRL for hard currency. That’s why regulators have problems with EA and Valve’s games.
In Hearthstone, you may spend all your euros, pounds or dollars on a slim chance at Dr. Boom, but once you get him he can’t be traded with other players. There is no potential for unscrupulous skin or item shops to get involved, as they have with Valve’s games. All you can do with those valuable rare cards is use them yourself, or swap them for Arcane Dust. This is a crucial difference. No government ever prosecuted Yu-Gi-Oh cards as unlicensed gambling.
The free-to-play versus pack-buying argument has been raging more or less nonstop since Hearthstone was released. In my nearly five years of playing, I have never felt compelled to buy packs in order to succeed. Unlike in Battlefront II and many other new games, I believe players really can do well without spending a penny – and this has been proven by countless streamers such as TrumpSC. FtP to Legend is doable.
In my opinion, although Hearthstone clearly contains a lot of the worryingly addictive mechanics used both by loot boxes and the global gambling industry, it has enough supporting features to make it a fun and complete game without needing to spend money. You can’t use your gold to buy cards from other players, and that is a very good thing. If that ever changes, it’s a different story.
Until then, let’s let RNGesus take the wheel (or mouse, trackpad, or screen) and bust open those Boomsday packs without worry.
Hearthstone is a game, that requires expensive software/game developers, expensive servers to maintain, good managers to run, company building to pay rent on (etc.) and they have to find somehow to monetize it
Blizzard, the company that owns and develops Heartstone, according to their financial filings spent $3 billion dollars in costs to run their entire platform. People are fickle these days and a good game is hard to develop, and once developed the popularity can wane fairly rapidly if not taken care of.
Heartstone is only a good game because I (and a lot of other people) are willing to shell out $500-$1,000 every year - and I don't mind, im spending a paltry $500 for a game that took them hundreds of millions of dollars (if not billions) to develop; (what a bargain!)
Therefore; I don't view it as gambling; it is more like they are trying to monetize what they poured a ton of money into; if you can figure out a better monetization path then blizzard im sure is all ears, does Hearthstone just charge a fee of $500 a year to play, or do they do the candy crush route where you have to either pay or watch advertisements
you critize a company that makes money, but the only reason why its so good is because they can make money off of it
It was 3 years ago, just imagine what numbers are nowadays when they removed half of free content (expansions for gold) and made expansions really costly.
Hearthstone is extremely profitable if you compare cost of development to it's financial success. And Blizzard is extremely greedy company. The game is almost the same as 3 years ago, yet continue to bring Blizzard money on cosmic scale.
Whatever you say, it is definitely a problem for people with gambling problems (though yet not recognized properly), and it is really just an indie-level game, that definitely overpriced. I don't understand how it is possible that you can ban gambling games in real life but allow virtual gambling.
On August 30 2018 12:49 Hellonslaught wrote: Extra credits made a really good review on this subject.
Also, if HS is gambling then every single card game is gambling as well.
Ah, I must have missed it, but can you now sell your hearthstone cards for real money value or trade them in to stores or other individuals to get the cards you want?
That's cool for Blizzard to finally do that so all of the trading card analogies make sense when comparing them to Hearthstone.
Biggest question with hearthstone is the lack of secondary market for the cards. In some games (CSGO, dota etc) gambling is only really a thing due to the existence of a secondary market for the skins, allowing a virtual economy to develop around supply and demand of cosmetic items. Then buying a chest/key for like $2 can "win" a jackpot of Dragonlore or something worth several times more than the initial purchase (and can be monetized!) or an item with no resell value.
To some extent most physical card games work the same way where booster packs have a chance to include rare and thus expensive cards but most cards are just fillers. Hearthstone removes the secondary market but still monetizes the game same way, by selling content in booster packs where you cannot affect directly what you get. The replacement mechanisms of dust and ingame currency to enable purchasing content without spending real money are quite typical in these so called freemium games, but often feel lacklustre compared to actual secondary market where players are more in control of what content they can buy and then play.
I feel like hearthstone is balancing this quite well, I do acknowledge that the game is expensive for a freemium game, but on the other hand it is incredibly well made, expands at a rapid pace and caters to very wide audience. It is friendly to casual players who want to jump in for a few games every now and then and at the same time has managed to give birth to a competitive scene as well. Card packs are around the same price as any TCG I've seen around (like 5 or 6€ for a pokemon TCG booster of 9(?) cards compared to 3€ for 5 card HS pack) and it is available quite reliably globally. Blizzard also is decently open handed in giving free packs and in-game resources away, allowing people to dabble with the game without huge financial commitments.
I'd say that HS is just a digital CCG, and as all card games (MTG, pokemon etc) the booster packs always are a mini raffle if you want to interpret any game of chance like that, but because there is no way to monetize the "wins" i.e. legendary cards or whatever you consider a "win" when opening packs HS is not gambling. To some extent I also disagree about calling some other lootboxes gambling, as to me gambling has to have a tangible price that has a real value. However I despise selling AAA games in 60€ base game and then large portions of the content in small transactions of 2€ or something in the form of lootboxes, be it the recent offenders like Fifa or Shadow of War or whatnot. Maybe games just need to be sold at more than 60€ up front if we drop the lootbox mechanics, but that to me is preferable and more honest than selling a stripped out husk at the price of a full game and then the rest of the game in small batches that at worst include a luck factor of what you get for each few euros/pounds/dollars.
TL:DR HS is not gambling, because there is no way to monetize your "wins" from the booster pack purchases. CS:GO loot boxes for example can be considered gambling because there is real market where your winning tickets (rare knives and so on) can be exchanged for money.
PS: This rant actually translates into: much more worrying than the gambling question is the monetization models of many modern games, whether freemium or premium+lootboxes, games are sold possibly underpriced up front but rely on players then spending additional money to unlock features that sometimes could and/or should have been part of the game from the start, albeit at a slightly higher price.
Gambling definition: take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
The Gambling factor in any card game comes down if purchases from closed packs are considered gamble or not. Being able to "monetize" cards later has nothing to do with the gamble subject.
It has everything to do with gambling in relation to casinos and, ya know, the law. I confess, it has little to do with your Merriam Webster definition.
In physical card games, I can go and buy the cards I want. They may be pricey, but I can find the exact card I want and know what exactly I'm getting and for what price.
You can't do that in Hearthstone, so the comparisons between digital card games and physical card games falls apart. There is no way for me to buy the card I want and know what I am buying. It's 100% chance, and it's even manipulated chance designed to keep the player paying (why do you think they purposely manipulate the legendary drop rates for opening packs?).
I don't think it can really be argued that card packs and loot boxes of any kind aren't gambling. You spend a little money hoping to hit your desired prize while not knowing if that will take 1 or 100 dollars to get. All that really matters is how predatory the gambling is. Hearthstone can totally be played for free without any big issues and you can turn the useless cards you get into dust to make the specific cards you want, so I don't think it is very predatory. It isn't like they are one of the mobile games or roblox crap that make all their money off children who don't know better.
On September 02 2018 10:46 litlnoobs wrote: In physical card games, I can go and buy the cards I want. They may be pricey, but I can find the exact card I want and know what exactly I'm getting and for what price.
This isn't true at all. Companies do not sell single cards, SOMEONE has to buy those closed packs in the start of the expansion, and this someone is gambling. ONLY then you may or may not find a seller in the open market for a reasonable price of the cards you want. Also, getting extremely powerfull cards becomes VERY expensive this way because there is a limited number that are printed.
As an example, a single MTG deck usually cost over $400 depending on the format.
On September 02 2018 10:46 litlnoobs wrote: In physical card games, I can go and buy the cards I want. They may be pricey, but I can find the exact card I want and know what exactly I'm getting and for what price.
This isn't true at all. Companies do not sell single cards, SOMEONE has to buy those closed packs in the start of the expansion, and this someone is gambling. ONLY then you may or may not find a seller in the open market for a reasonable price of the cards you want. Also, getting extremely powerfull cards becomes VERY expensive this way because there is a limited number that are printed.
As an example, a single MTG deck usually cost over $400 depending on the format.
Is there a way to get the cards I want without relying on chance? Yes.
On September 08 2018 07:23 litlnoobs wrote: Is there a way to get the cards I want without relying on chance? Yes.
HS has a craft system. Just disenchant everything you get from packs and craft it using the base dust value per loot box as reference to know how much it will cost.
HS is not cheap, but i think you may end up crafting the entire collection before assembling 3 top tier decks in MTG.
On September 02 2018 10:46 litlnoobs wrote: In physical card games, I can go and buy the cards I want. They may be pricey, but I can find the exact card I want and know what exactly I'm getting and for what price.
This isn't true at all. Companies do not sell single cards, SOMEONE has to buy those closed packs in the start of the expansion, and this someone is gambling. ONLY then you may or may not find a seller in the open market for a reasonable price of the cards you want. Also, getting extremely powerfull cards becomes VERY expensive this way because there is a limited number that are printed.
As an example, a single MTG deck usually cost over $400 depending on the format.
Is there a way to get the cards I want without relying on chance? Yes.
You can buy cards using the virtual currency of "Dust" but if you want more Dust then the quickest way to get some is to buy some packs and disenchant the cards. How much Dust you get per pack is not constant, so it is still gambling in essence. I think a system where you could directly buy Dust but not a fixed amount of Dust - sometimes it would be 40 Dust, other times it would be over 400 Dust - would be considered gambling by many (even if not legally gambling).
Didn't something similar to this occur with Baseball cards and gambling? I highly doubt a change from physical to virtual would make any difference. In a sense, you always obtain something with your money. Additionally, if buying packs was considered gambling (and thus illegal), you would run into major problems with many different games and companies (basically every game that has a loot box system). It would also be rather strange for it to suddenly become and issue now instead of when it was first implemented.
For what it's worth, the writing on this post was exceptional. Sounds like it was written by a skilled and talented student out of journalism school. I don't play Hearthstone or particularly care about it, but the questions posed by the article were relevant and over-arching, regardless of one's direct involvement with the game's ecosystem. Well-done.
I'm not really into Heartsone but as a person that plays casino/gambling games, I don't think so. Purchasing loot boxes or crates is not required in every players and it's up to the players if he/she wants it. It doesn't mean that if you purchase any loot box, you can already win the game. As mentioned above, you can still earn the crates by playing the game without spending any pennies. I can't see any connection of gambling at all. Maybe they consider it as gambling because of the spending of money just to purchase those loot boxes.
On October 12 2020 17:22 hokusai wrote: I'm not really into Heartsone but as a person that plays casino/gambling games, I don't think so. Purchasing loot boxes or crates is not required in every players and it's up to the players if he/she wants it. It doesn't mean that if you purchase any loot box, you can already win the game. As mentioned above, you can still earn the crates by playing the game without spending any pennies. I can't see any connection of gambling at all. Maybe they consider it as gambling because of the spending of money just to purchase those loot boxes.
you got to be living in a cave if you consider loot boxes != gambling. Many countries are already regulating lootboxes because it is really like gambling and can really lead to addiction. Search YongYea in youtube and you'll get to know what I am talking about
I may be minority in my opinion here (or not?)... I think any mechanism that allows you to spend real money in exchange for a chance of obtaining something of value in your eyes is gambling. I stress "of value in your eyes" - this may not be real money. It doesn't have to be a mechanism for profit. It doesn't even formally be related to the notion of ownership in legal sense. If I pay $2 for a 2% chance to gain access to a digital item that I don't own, in a game that I have access to, but don't own - that is still gambling.
Even an argument that you can obtain the item for sure, in a different way - either by spending your time, or different form or amount of money, does not change the fact that the abovementioned mechanism is gambling.
In a game like shooters, you can craft a different mechanism, that does not revolve around chance. Say - the recent Call of Duty series (I don't know how it was in the past). There is a progression system, there are items that you can buy, but I am not aware of any item that would revolve around chance. And still, the company behind CoD are making a pretty good profit of the game.
That being said, for a game of Hearthsone, gamble-less mechanism seems all but impossible to achieve, because the core game mechanic revolves around people having access to a different set of cards, and building the best deck possible out of what they currently have. If you were allowed to buy just dust and craft everything, it would be either very expensive, or everyone would just pick the best deck and roll with that, making the game boring.
On December 22 2020 18:20 BlackLilium wrote: That being said, for a game of Hearthsone, gamble-less mechanism seems all but impossible to achieve, because the core game mechanic revolves around people having access to a different set of cards, and building the best deck possible out of what they currently have. If you were allowed to buy just dust and craft everything, it would be either very expensive, or everyone would just pick the best deck and roll with that, making the game boring.
I would have preferred that over the current system. I played HS for a few years, but I quit because even spending € 150 per year on the game (€ 50 per expension for the 40 card pack sets) wasn't enough to get the cards I wanted. I feel that spending the price of an AAA game thrice a year should enable me to create the decks I like.
I know developing and maintaining a game takes time and money. If they'd offer a complete set of all the new cards in an expansion for € 50, I'd happily pay it. But the current system is just really bad for the player.
On December 22 2020 18:20 BlackLilium wrote: That being said, for a game of Hearthsone, gamble-less mechanism seems all but impossible to achieve, because the core game mechanic revolves around people having access to a different set of cards, and building the best deck possible out of what they currently have. If you were allowed to buy just dust and craft everything, it would be either very expensive, or everyone would just pick the best deck and roll with that, making the game boring.
I would have preferred that over the current system. I played HS for a few years, but I quit because even spending € 150 per year on the game (€ 50 per expension for the 40 card pack sets) wasn't enough to get the cards I wanted. I feel that spending the price of an AAA game thrice a year should enable me to create the decks I like.
I know developing and maintaining a game takes time and money. If they'd offer a complete set of all the new cards in an expansion for € 50, I'd happily pay it. But the current system is just really bad for the player.
A lot of companies (Blizzard included) are looking into making money from mechanics that "incentivize" you to pay more. You may call it "RNG", "Gambling", "pay2win"; or another different adjective.
The reality is that the game is made intentionally worse and unfair in order to get more money from you. Now I personally avoid any of those games, meaning I mostly stay in single player games.
Starcraft 1 and Heroes of the storm is relatively fair in terms of the multiplayer component, same as Overwatch, but those games are not as profitable for Blizzard as HS. That is also why those games see much less work put into them.
This is a "vote with your wallet" sort of situation. As long as we give money for games that use anti-consumer mechanics, we will get more of those games.
Is it immoral for companies to do it? yes. Is it illegal? not yet.
EPT![[image loading]](https://www.liquidhearth.com/staff/Hayl_Storm/Boomsday/carlgambling_banner.jpg)
