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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
Jesus christ I am so disappointed, nerfing patron was definitly a good decision but nerfing =/= killing it for crying out loud. Lowering the health of warsong commander or frothing or mby even reducing dmg of patron by 1 or something woulda been so much better without killing it completely. | ||
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riotjune
United States3392 Posts
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On October 15 2015 01:29 jubil wrote: I would have ideally preferred a less drastic nerf that would keep patron around but diminish its "out of nowhere instakill" ability. However, I'm not super upset at this change, as imo the fact that Patron was so ridiculously strong for so ridiculously long, and resistant to the TGT meta-shift, means Blizzard is entirely justified in nerfing it to the ground. We desperately needed a new meta. Patron might be gone for good, but I do remember that there used to be a Face Warrior super aggro deck out there, and I wonder if this change to Warsong Commander will help it come back. Commander is utter trash now. If you ever are in a situation where you might use it, you should put in Abusive Sergeant or Dire Wolf Alpha instead. Even Leper Gnome will do more for less, and it doesn't even do the same thing. I hate the change, but it could have at least been +2/0 or they could have made it a 2/4 or something. Just something to make it theoretically "bad" instead of essentially deleting it from the game. edit: Also, based their statement, they should really look into the Hunter hero power. Once this goes through, we're going to experience a lot more of this "interaction." | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38205 Posts
On October 15 2015 02:10 Kickboxer wrote: Nerfing the wrong card in the wrong way, just what we've come to expect from blizzard  next nerf will be to secret pala by nerfing Tirion and get down.It was absolutely the right card to nerf. They probably went too far but if it opens up interesting design options in the future maybe it was a good choice to effectively kill it. We'll see. | ||
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Mortal
2943 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3188 Posts
-Brode figures giving other minions charge was kind of a broken mechanic anyway, in that charge minions are difficult to balance, and being able to give non-charge minions charge automatically constricts the design space significantly. As an example, he brought up Dreadsteed, which was originally planned to be a neutral card in the Shade of Naxxramas expansion, but couldn't be because it was so broken with Warsong Commander. Thus they chose to nerf Warsong Commander rather than Frothing Berserker or Grim Patron. -In choosing a new design for the unit, Brode notably does not emphasize any need for the card to be viable. He does emphasize that the card is a common card, so it shouldn't be too complicated, and that as it is now, it's a "build-around card," meaning that it has the kind of effect that a new player can use as inspiration for a deck. So if you look at Gadgetzan you can say "ah, I'll build a spell deck," and if you look at Old Murkeye you can say "ah, I'll build a murloc deck." Similarly Warsong Commander should remain the kind of card that makes you say "ah, I know what kind of deck to put that in." -Another aspect Brode emphasizes is the sort of core of the card, which is a 3 mana 2/3 that says "Charge forward!" when you play her, and then interacts with charge in some way. In changing a card, its core should remain intact. Therefore the card keeps its stats, and instead gives charge minions +1 attack. -Brode regretfully acknowledges that nerfing cards is always really unfortunate, and they don't like to do it when they can avoid it because it kills decks and results in a lot of un-fun occurrences like someone not reading the patch notes and then going into a game to find that their deck doesn't work anymore. He also acknowledges that this doesn't do arena warrior any favors, and that they'll have to try to remedy that in some future set. Notably unaddressed: -He doesn't say anything about what will happen to the meta with patron warrior gone. Since he specifically mentions that he read all the commentary about the change from around the internet, and since the biggest ciriticism I've seen is "now secret pally will be totally broken," this is potentially a pretty big oversight. -He doesn't really make clear what makes something "core" to a card. Making it a 3/3 or 3/4, or dropping the mana cost to 2, would certainly have alleviated some of the concerns for arena warrior, and almost certainly not be broken. | ||
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
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Asha
United Kingdom38205 Posts
On October 15 2015 08:30 Mortal wrote: What kind of "design options" does this conceivable open up? It's worse than Raid Leader, a card that has never seen constructed play (I won't use "strictly better" because of the health discrepancy and the fact that I believe the buff sticks beyond death) and Warrior struggles to play any deck that isn't Control or Patron. The kind of design options for future cards where Warsong doesn't immediately make them broken? This isn't the first time they had to nerf Warsong (and warrior charge), the mechanics she grants have always been problematic to balance around. | ||
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Origence
Spain0 Posts
On October 15 2015 16:21 Asha` wrote: The kind of design options for future cards where Warsong doesn't immediately make them broken? This isn't the first time they had to nerf Warsong (and warrior charge), the mechanics she grants have always been problematic to balance around. And why nerf it now that Warsong Commander is not problematic? They could nerf the card in same patch they add new cards that would be broken with Warsong. At that point breaking a deck like patron is also less problematic since people has more reasons to try new decks when a new set of cards is released. | ||
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FamousJoshy5
0 Posts
So I was thinking- perhaps this meta shift could re-introduce the aggro warrior? Since warsong commander now seems to benefit that archetype 😀 | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1011 Posts
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UChicago
United States0 Posts
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Noidberg
United States17 Posts
-Another aspect Brode emphasizes is the sort of core of the card, which is a 3 mana 2/3 that says "Charge forward!" when you play her, and then interacts with charge in some way. In changing a card, its core should remain intact. Therefore the card keeps its stats, and instead gives charge minions +1 attack. I agree with what hes saying about why warsong changed but keeping the old stats makes no sense. The core of the card in this case is the effect not the stats as its a combo card. The combo potential as i see it is now less so higher stats should compensate for that. A 3 mana 2/4 would put it next to flamewaker at least. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On October 15 2015 17:26 Origence wrote: And why nerf it now that Warsong Commander is not problematic? They could nerf the card in same patch they add new cards that would be broken with Warsong. At that point breaking a deck like patron is also less problematic since people has more reasons to try new decks when a new set of cards is released. Warsong is problematic though. As people rightfully pointed out, Leeroy was doing 15+ damage and nerfed a year ago for being too bursty. Frothing Berserkers are hitting 40+ damage and without Warsong they can't do that from hand anymore (well technically they can still get close if you swap Warsong for Charge and just use Patrons for self-damage fodder, but you lose a ton of utility in clearing a path / self damage without charging Patrons). On the other hand, Undertaker and Starving Buzzard were both nerfed when GvG came out because expansion launch is when decks get thrown away and reworked anyways so I don't disagree with your thoughts on timing. Also, Blizzcon is in a few weeks, that's a little close to throw away a key meta deck no matter how problematic it is (especially when they've let it stand for months). | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 16 2015 01:30 Wuster wrote: Warsong is problematic though. As people rightfully pointed out, Leeroy was doing 15+ damage and nerfed a year ago for being too bursty. Frothing Berserkers are hitting 40+ damage and without Warsong they can't do that from hand anymore (well technically they can still get close if you swap Warsong for Charge and just use Patrons for self-damage fodder, but you lose a ton of utility in clearing a path / self damage without charging Patrons). On the other hand, Undertaker and Starving Buzzard were both nerfed when GvG came out because expansion launch is when decks get thrown away and reworked anyways so I don't disagree with your thoughts on timing. Also, Blizzcon is in a few weeks, that's a little close to throw away a key meta deck no matter how problematic it is (especially when they've let it stand for months). Starving Buzzard was nerfed waaaaaaay before GvG. It was nerfed before Naxx, even. People were bemoaning Hunter's fate before the entire class got revived with a set of cards that seemed designed for it, and which the class simply does not operate without even now. And then people started saying "See? The Buzzard nerf was fine! Hunter is more resilient than that!" when the class was given some of the most inherently broken cards in the game to work with. In fact, it's the shift between Basic and Naxx which has shaped Hunter into the face class which it has never gone beyond since. This is one of the things that frustrates me about nerf apologists. There's no understanding about the history of the game, which lends itself to a distorted view of what this nerf means. | ||
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
I'm fine with the current nerf though. If they nerfed it less, or nerfed something else, Warsong would continue to be a thorn in the side of Blizzard and players. But it really begs the question, if charge combos are too strong, what about druid? I'm just glad Warsong is not a shredder drop, or that'd be one more way combo can kill you even faster than the usual 14 HP danger zone. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
Also, the best way to open up design space is by having set-rotating formats, and that would actually be less brutal to new players than only having eternal ones. Then you don't have to destroy cards. But it would make them less money, so it's not happening any time soon. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On October 15 2015 17:46 FamousJoshy5 wrote: Yay! Finally warrior is being nerfed! I've been struggling in the recent meta since I play all classes except warlock and warrior. There's only so much midrange Druid that is fun playing! So I was thinking- perhaps this meta shift could re-introduce the aggro warrior? Since warsong commander now seems to benefit that archetype 😀 Why would run a 2/3 for 3 that gives +1 to only charge minions in any deck ? The effect is at best OK but the minion has terrible stats for its cost which the new effect does not make up for. So no we are definitly not going to see aggro Warrior played because of measly +1 to charge minions if for some miracle Warsong sticks around ( which there aren't that many and aggro Warrior does his most damage which Weapons/Spells anyway ) Not to mention aggro Warriors biggest problems are the terrible heropower for an aggressive deck and its incosistency because of lack of draws . Neither of which are adressed in any way. A way to make it work better would for example to have Oggrimar Aspirant give +1 durability and not +1 attack for weapons which almost useless. | ||
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
On October 16 2015 04:04 Acritter wrote: Arena, at least, really does need card-limiting formats. The more sets get released, the weaker each synergy card gets and the more it drifts towards just having a good curve and dropping a ton of minions without any respect to AOE or MCT. I'd like if Constructed could get the same. Personally that is the main reason I hate arena it just becomes the exact same minions / game each time you draft and its incredibly stale. I like my constructed having insane combos / synergies its what makes hearthstone interesting. As for the rotation sets It just wouldn't work with how slow Hearthstone produces expansions and how few cards get added with each one. We are 2 months into TGT and I have all the TGT cards (Minus the terrible legendaries and epics) without doing arena or buying packs. Blizzard just doesn't produce enough cards for anyone but newer players to justify buying packs / expansions. | ||
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