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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On October 14 2015 19:15 BroLuk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 18:38 MarKeD wrote:
This was worse than an amateur attempt at balance, they just dropped a nuke and destroyed everything. I don't buy the "it's better for the future of the game excuse" (They're not releasing any cards that required the Warsong change and they could've waited till then), if Blizzard could be honest they would say this is a pure greed move to destroy the cheap deck and force players into buying expensive P2Warrior instead of being F2Patron.
If this was for the good of the game they would've balanced it during BRM instead of now when they have shiny new TGT packs to sell. This isn't good for Hearthstone, it's good for Blizzard. This is the undertaker nerf all over again, waiting until everyone has bought naxx so they can ruin it and force you into buying GvG, they ruin BRM to force you into TGT.
Out of all the balance possibilities (buffing unplayable cards like poisoned blade) they choose to completely destroy a cheap skill orientated deck. Not only that, but they do it by changing the soul-bound card that can't be disenchanted. Their claim that "we don't want people to work hard towards something to take it away for nothing" is proven to be utter lies as they take away an entire deck (many cards that are useless outside the patron combo deck) without any compensation.
STOP YOUR LIES BLI$$ARD Was wondering yesterday why they made such bad nerf. And my thoughts were same as yours. They nerf patron this way coz it was cheap deck to get. And most powerful. Blizzard shows again how greedy bastrads they are. I've read somewhere that Hearthstone earns 20.000.000 $ pro month. But i think it is too few for them still.
Well I've never bought a pack. I also have never done arena seriously - + Show Spoiler + and yet I have every good TGT card / 90% of GvG minus the trash legendaries / all the good classic cards which means that I am never going to be in a position where I need to buy packs / expansions with real money as from this point on I've got no reason to spend gold and instead I'll just stockpile it.
Which means that everyone else like me who has been playing from closed beta should be in a similar position and that removes a % of people who would be customers, not to mention everyone who actually enjoys arena and would have been earning cards / dust quicker than me also is in this position. Which means that the only way Blizzard will actually ever make money is if they ramp up their expansion releases to every 3 months or so rather than 6 which surprise surprise would be a smarter way of balancing anyway.
So honestly I don't think this has much to do with money given this won't hurt or help their pockets seriously. Given the next cheapest deck from Patron is only 400 dust more expensive
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On October 14 2015 19:13 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 19:05 mandelised wrote:On October 14 2015 02:11 Aceace wrote:, we felt this change was necessary to help expand both future design space and to stand by our overarching game philosophy that battles between minions and fighting for board control is what makes Hearthstone fun and compelling. http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/19288409377 yes i always fight aggro minions for board control..... lol This nerf makes one class card useless, hobgoblin works better that it now. Warsong however has been an issue for a long time, the main reason is that the CHARGE mechanic is broken as it gives the opposing player no right to reply. Under the statement from blizzard why does charge remain a "thing" in the game . Because charge is still allows for more board interaction than Freeze / Control warrior where its simply play removal until you can 1a2a3a into your win condition (or cause the enemy to afk concede) People seem to forget that the super control decks are also against Blizzard's vision because in their minds everything would be midrange decks and play like arena - aka pretty damn boring [/i]
You can silence a freeze and playing removal is minion interaction
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Well I'm glad the patron combo is nerfed.
But why did they have to kill warsong commander...?? A 3 mana dire wolf alpha with 1 extra health, who also has a conditional use... just terrible.
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Patron warrior removed right before Blizzcon? Sounds like christmas is coming early this year
+ Show Spoiler +
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As much as this was needed, all it really does is assure Druid will dominate the ladder for a while. As a Druid player, I am not complaining. I just wish I could find a good, viable, non-combo Druid deck.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On October 14 2015 19:58 mandelised wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 19:13 Drazerk wrote:On October 14 2015 19:05 mandelised wrote:On October 14 2015 02:11 Aceace wrote:, we felt this change was necessary to help expand both future design space and to stand by our overarching game philosophy that battles between minions and fighting for board control is what makes Hearthstone fun and compelling http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/19288409377 yes i always fight aggro minions for board control..... lol This nerf makes one class card useless, hobgoblin works better that it now. Warsong however has been an issue for a long time, the main reason is that the CHARGE mechanic is broken as it gives the opposing player no right to reply. Under the statement from blizzard why does charge remain a "thing" in the game . Because charge is still allows for more board interaction than Freeze / Control warrior where its simply play removal until you can 1a2a3a into your win condition (or cause the enemy to afk concede) People seem to forget that the super control decks are also against Blizzard's vision because in their minds everything would be midrange decks and play like arena - aka pretty damn boring You can silence a freeze and playing removal is minion interaction
And that is where we disagree. Only playing removal like freeze mage does isn't board interaction. Its board clearing its the less interaction than a charge just hitting face and then you clearing it off except its longer and more tedious
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I believe there are three major reasons why the Warsong Commander Nerf was unnecessary.
Firstly, the current tournament environment suggests Patron Warrior deck has consistently, albeit slowly, declined in its power. The evidence is there. The win rate of Patron Warrior decks in major pre-TGT tournaments is slightly below .500. The data is collected by Team Liquid for all to freely examine. Furthermore, the evolution of other decks (tech choices such as Flamestrike in Tempo Mages) and acclimatization of users to the Patron Warrior deck made the power of the deck diminish in both the ladder and the tournament scene over time. People no longer give outright value to Battle Rages or give time to Patron Warrior to draw cards. Moreover, recent tournament events show pro players making strategic decisions to avoid the Patron deck altogether in their lineups. In summary, the Patron deck has lost its initial dominant position when it first entered the scene.
Secondly, the nerf should have been focused on the Emperor Thaurissan, not the Warsong Commander. Blizzard has again neglected the primary reason that makes the Patron Warrior so strong - Emperor Thaurissan. The Patron deck is naturally strong against aggro decks and weak against midrange and control decks. The reason is simple, patron lacks hard removals to control the board that can be dominated by midrange and high cost minions the non-aggro decks employ. The only way the Patron warrior can steal games from its natural counter decks is to manipulate the mana costs by putting down the Thaurissan once the key cards for the OTK are drawn. If this strategy fails, Patron warrior simply cannot deal with both midrange and control decks, then loses the game. Hence, if Thaurissan were to be nerfed to, say, 7 mana, the Patron deck would never have achieved the current position in the meta game. It would still be powerful against aggro decks, but it would fail to steal games against its natural counter decks.
Consider Patron's matchup against the Control Warrior. In the normal course of the game, the Patron Warrior has only one viable win condition. That is to collect a Warsong Commander, two Frothing Berserkers, Grim Patron and some cards with Whirlwind effects to initiate the OTK. The ONLY way for the combo to work would be to abuse the Thaurissan. If, however, there were no Thaurissan, Warsong Commander (3) + 2 Frothing Berserker (6) + Whirlwind (1) would already cost up to 10 mana. AND this 4 card combo combinations will only generate 24 damage in one turn IF the opponent has (a) Full Board and (b) No Taunts. Nobody really argues about the ridiculous Force of Nature + Savage Roar + Innervate + Savage Roar Combo because it is highly unlikely to happen. However, people do have concerns when Thaurissan reduces the mana costs and enables the Druid to initiate the double combo with relative ease.
Put it simply, if Blizzard leaves Thaurissan the way it is now, another combo deck that exploits and abuses the power of Thaurissan will simply reappear in the future. Analytically, Thaurissan poses a bigger threat to future design constraints on Blizzard compared to the ones caused by the Warsong Commander. Blizzard is simply kicking the can down the road by refusing to fix the balance of Thaurissan and I believe this will further exacerbate the problem in the future.
Thirdly, and most importantly, nerfing the Patron Warrior deck will only make the current meta game even more stale. Removing the Patron from the meta simply makes the meta regress to the pre-BRM meta. If Blizzard believes TGT has failed to influence the meta because of the Patron deck, they are dead wrong. TGT failed because the inspire mechanic failed. And inspire mechanic failed because Blizzard failed to provide incentive to use the hero power over the cards during the early phases of the game. This by the way, is entirely Blizzard's fault by designing the game in such a way that low cost minions are disproportionately efficient in comparison to high cost minions.
The future Warsong Commander nerf should worry people in the community because it will pose a threat to the health of the game.
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So I wonder if people are going to start using Warsong Commander + Unleash the Hounds now. Oh wait, you could already do that with Raid Leader *facepalm*
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People should stop acting as if warsong was played in any other deck. They did not want to nerf the neutral cards and the other cards could see some plays in other warrior decks without being OP, nerfing the least played minion of the pack is the right choice to kill the deck without impacting any other deck.
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On October 14 2015 21:23 Freezard wrote:
So I wonder if people are going to start using Warsong Commander + Unleash the Hounds now. Oh wait, you could already do that with Raid Leader *facepalm*
There's a fairly obvious reason why Warsong Commander + UTH will never be a thing... and no its not because Timber Wolf is strictly better.
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I also think Commander is the right target to nerf.. but a lesser nerf, not the huge nuke he received.. something like this should have probably worked fine:
- Make Commander a 2/1 (so you can only whirlwind once)
- Make Commander give charge only to 3 or less power minions, as long as they KEEP staying at 3 power or less (no frothing berserker)
- Make Commander effect a battlecry, only working for creatures in play already (this would have been a REALLY big nerf against patron, but not as much as it was Blizzard's one
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On October 14 2015 21:42 nojok wrote:
People should stop acting as if warsong was played in any other deck. They did not want to nerf the neutral cards and the other cards could see some plays in other warrior decks without being OP, nerfing the least played minion of the pack is the right choice to kill the deck without impacting any other deck.
Are you implying that Frothing Berserker was playable in a single other Warrior deck? The card takes serious work with enablers to make it noteworthy over any of the game's viable 3-drops and dies to basically every removal spell. It's only scary when you can give it Charge. Otherwise, it just dies. Even the best "realistic" play with it, trading 2-drop for 2-drop so that you end up with a turn 3 4/4, is kinda useless because the class has access to Fiery War Axe and Death's Bite.
Lowering its health by 1 would not have been such a big deal.
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They could have made the charge a battlecry instead.
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FINALLY!
Goodbye, Patron Warrior. You will not be missed.
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Hell... It's about time! Really happy about this.
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On October 14 2015 21:51 Malhavoc wrote:
I also think Commander is the right target to nerf.. but a lesser nerf, not the huge nuke he received.. something like this should have probably worked fine:
- Make Commander a 2/1 (so you can only whirlwind once)
- Make Commander give charge only to 3 or less power minions, as long as they KEEP staying at 3 power or less (no frothing berserker)
- Make Commander effect a battlecry, only working for creatures in play already (this would have been a REALLY big nerf against patron, but not as much as it was Blizzard's one
I agree too that the nerf was needed, but way too big. Now with the patron gone, we will see Face Hunters flood the meta again. Hell, i prefer like 100 times to play against patrons than against Face Hunters...
P.S The 2/1 Warsong commander is probably the best idea here - it still makes frothing combos very strong but nerfing patrons from awesome to good.
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On October 14 2015 20:24 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Well I'm glad the patron combo is nerfed.
But why did they have to kill warsong commander...?? A 3 mana dire wolf alpha with 1 extra health, who also has a conditional use... just terrible.
I'm surprised that this was the best they could come up with. You can't even pretend that Warsong Commander is still playable (like they did with Starving Buzzard).
On October 14 2015 21:42 nojok wrote:
People should stop acting as if warsong was played in any other deck. They did not want to nerf the neutral cards and the other cards could see some plays in other warrior decks without being OP, nerfing the least played minion of the pack is the right choice to kill the deck without impacting any other deck.
Warsong Commander was a key cog of other decks that have been nerfed in the past (Molten Giants warrior notably). Charge itself was nerfed from 0 to 3 mana. Ben Brode has even said that Charge is a hard mechanic to balance due to it's non-interactivity and to back that up - Leeroy Jenkins was nerfed over a year ago for it's OTK combo potential.
The key here has always been charge. Makes me surprised that combo is still allowed to exist (especially given how strong Druid is currently).
I agree that Warsong had to be nerfed, it's just... less than useless now.
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I would have ideally preferred a less drastic nerf that would keep patron around but diminish its "out of nowhere instakill" ability. However, I'm not super upset at this change, as imo the fact that Patron was so ridiculously strong for so ridiculously long, and resistant to the TGT meta-shift, means Blizzard is entirely justified in nerfing it to the ground. We desperately needed a new meta.
Patron might be gone for good, but I do remember that there used to be a Face Warrior super aggro deck out there, and I wonder if this change to Warsong Commander will help it come back.
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Nerfing the wrong card in the wrong way, just what we've come to expect from blizzard  next nerf will be to secret pala by nerfing Tirion and get down.
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I guess I'd better play my Hobgoblin Warsong Mech Warrior while I still can. Good job completely obliterating Warsong instead of just balancing it.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PlX67wk.png?1)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BOFfDU2.jpg)
