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On July 25 2014 08:35 Drazerk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 25 2014 08:11 AsAr wrote:
I picked "way too easy", although it's just "a bit too easy". I did the first two heroic bosses with handlock on the first try (with a bit of luck), and it took me 2 tries with a well-thought-out mage deck against Maexxna. But what will the players do that don't have many good cards, for example Alexstrasza against Maexxna? For them, Naxxramas truely will be an adventure, with very hard to beat bosses. I wouldn't mind the following wings to become harder but I see why Blizzard doesn't want the heroic mode to be "insanely" hard, because it may be impossible for players that lack the required cards. But those insanely hard challenges give them a reason to go out and play and get those cards (Plus its not exactly hard to beat Maexxna without Alex since I failed to draw her when I beat her). Its like arguing people should be able to go into black temple without having higher than 8500 health. The boss gave you a reason to go out and get gear so you could experience the dungeon. Cards are our gear and we should have reasons to want to farm them.
True. But I don't like the idea of a boss XY only being possible to beat with, say, Deathwing, because that reduced the card to being "the ticket to beat XY". But I do like your comparison. Maybe I'm just too stingy with my Arcane Dust. :/
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On July 25 2014 08:44 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 02:13 KnowNothing wrote:
Heroics clearly aren't "way too easy". I assume people picked that poll option because there isn't a "somewhat too easy" option. The problem imo is the fights aren't that interesting -- you don't have to be particularly creative or clever to come up with lame ways to trick the AI and win. In many cases you know that any normal play by the enemy would kill you easily and it really reduces the satisfaction you get from cheesing it out. I beat the entire wing (including heroics and class challenges) with literally one loss (To Maxx, before I knew what her ability was) in less than 30 minutes. You can beat the entire thing with literally only commons very easily. I'd call that absurdly easy. It's not like I'm some TCG God, I'd consider myself just a random decent player.
maybe i play too slow but how is it possible for you to play 9 matches in less than 30 mins
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On July 25 2014 16:27 Kleinmuuhg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 08:44 Figgy wrote:On July 24 2014 02:13 KnowNothing wrote:
Heroics clearly aren't "way too easy". I assume people picked that poll option because there isn't a "somewhat too easy" option. The problem imo is the fights aren't that interesting -- you don't have to be particularly creative or clever to come up with lame ways to trick the AI and win. In many cases you know that any normal play by the enemy would kill you easily and it really reduces the satisfaction you get from cheesing it out. I beat the entire wing (including heroics and class challenges) with literally one loss (To Maxx, before I knew what her ability was) in less than 30 minutes. You can beat the entire thing with literally only commons very easily. I'd call that absurdly easy. It's not like I'm some TCG God, I'd consider myself just a random decent player. maybe i play too slow but how is it possible for you to play 9 matches in less than 30 mins
By exaggerating slightly and having no lag.
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On July 24 2014 04:31 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
5 hours of gameplay is a little bit more than a 'day' for most people. Especially the kind of people Hearthstone is aimed at.
Exactly, i still haven't found the time to try heroic mode by now. And i don't want to sit for 1 hour on a card game, sorry... For me that just feels odd.
I see it another way... Most shooters that costs 40-50 euro have a playtime of 8-12 hours. So how much playtime do you expect for 18 euro?
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On July 25 2014 20:17 Somchai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 04:31 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
5 hours of gameplay is a little bit more than a 'day' for most people. Especially the kind of people Hearthstone is aimed at.
Exactly, i still haven't found the time to try heroic mode by now. And i don't want to sit for 1 hour on a card game, sorry... For me that just feels odd. I see it another way... Most shooters that costs 40-50 euro have a playtime of 8-12 hours. So how much playtime do you expect for 18 euro?
or ~2 weeks of daily quests per quarter.
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On July 25 2014 20:17 Somchai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 04:31 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
5 hours of gameplay is a little bit more than a 'day' for most people. Especially the kind of people Hearthstone is aimed at.
Exactly, i still haven't found the time to try heroic mode by now. And i don't want to sit for 1 hour on a card game, sorry... For me that just feels odd. I see it another way... Most shooters that costs 40-50 euro have a playtime of 8-12 hours. So how much playtime do you expect for 18 euro?
Very few games are longer than 6 hours long if you know what you are doing. I bet once Naxx is done with someone could probably beat all the heroics in under an hour with correct decks / luck.
Personally I don't see the length being an issue but given this is a card game and freaking pokemon has managed to have more challenging card game AI I don't understand why blizzard has made it so easy rather than artificially giving it an increased game play length through arbitrary difficulty.
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I watched Kripp with his F2P account struggle for hours on the Heroic Maexxna. With constant deck refinement, armed with his cunning intelligence, and all the amazing experience he has gained in HS, he was definitely challenged (and tired in the end).
No, a player with one week of HS can't beat it. A player with a lot of experience and understanding of the game can beat it using F2P deck for some hours of trial and error. That's how it is, and that sounds difficult enough.
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On July 25 2014 21:00 figq wrote:
I watched Kripp with his F2P account struggle for hours on the Heroic Maexxna. With constant deck refinement, armed with his cunning intelligence, and all the amazing experience he has gained in HS, he was definitely challenged (and tired in the end).
No, a player with one week of HS can't beat it. A player with a lot of experience and understanding of the game can beat it using F2P deck for some hours of trial and error. That's how it is, and that sounds difficult enough.
So we have to make ourselves marginally weaker for it to be difficult?
Heroics shouldn't be content for new players they should be content for people who have played for 8+ months and have every card so Blizzard can design bosses that are truly difficult.
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I just wonder what type of people are willing to play an card game encounter like an WoW encounter that took months of preparation to progress. Are there really this sort of people out there who want to loose an encounter for one month only for 1 win without progress? In a card game? Are you kidding me?
Naxx is just another way to sell cards to players, nothing more nothing less. This is a game to play against human beeings and not some computer AI. Just what did you expect? How much time would you allow HS to try and fail for nothing? I don't get the point in complaining naxx is too easy.
I expect each wing to be an evening of fun. Nothing more, nothing less. Blizzard did a perfect job on this.
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On July 25 2014 21:13 Somchai wrote:
I just wonder what type of people are willing to play an card game encounter like an WoW encounter that took months of preparation to progress. Are there really this sort of people out there who want to loose an encounter for one month only for 1 win without progress? In a card game? Are you kidding me?
Naxx is just another way to sell cards to players, nothing more nothing less. This is a game to play against human beeings and not some computer AI. Just what did you expect? How much time would you allow HS to try and fail for nothing? I don't get the point in complaining naxx is too easy.
Yes... something akin to an adventure... To be fair this is only 1/5 of the content though.
I'm not one of those that is super disappointed. However I hope the first wing was easier to get people hooked and the rest of the wings continue to get more difficult.
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On July 25 2014 21:13 Somchai wrote:
I just wonder what type of people are willing to play an card game encounter like an WoW encounter that took months of preparation to progress. Are there really this sort of people out there who want to loose an encounter for one month only for 1 win without progress? In a card game? Are you kidding me?
Naxx is just another way to sell cards to players, nothing more nothing less. This is a game to play against human beeings and not some computer AI. Just what did you expect? How much time would you allow HS to try and fail for nothing? I don't get the point in complaining naxx is too easy.
I expect each wing to be an evening of fun. Nothing more, nothing less. Blizzard did a perfect job on this.
And yet the heroic versions have no card incentives and as a result should be a difficult challenge for people who are bored of ladder / arena and want to test themselves.
Unlike WoW there is less people so less human error ruining your boss encounters and once a boss is beaten once the deck will be posted everywhere making it marginally easier for everyone so it'll be impossible to be stuck on it for a month just due to the genre differences. However there still should be a challenge there where the bosses take a lot of skill and luck to beat with a perfect deck if not then why bother having heroic mode at all?
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On July 25 2014 21:16 mordek wrote:
Yes... something akin to an adventure... To be fair this is only 1/5 of the content though.
I'm not one of those that is super disappointed. However I hope the first wing was easier to get people hooked and the rest of the wings continue to get more difficult.
Well maybe. But then again you'll find enough people for whom the game is still not "challenging" enough. I don't care, i can wait till somebody figured out a deck, i hopefully have the cards for. I just want the card back and the cards and then i never touch the single player content again.
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On July 25 2014 21:41 Somchai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 21:16 mordek wrote:
Yes... something akin to an adventure... To be fair this is only 1/5 of the content though.
I'm not one of those that is super disappointed. However I hope the first wing was easier to get people hooked and the rest of the wings continue to get more difficult. Well maybe. But then again you'll find enough people for whom the game is still not "challenging" enough. I don't care, i can wait till somebody figured out a deck, i hopefully have the cards for. I just want the card back and the cards and then i never touch the single player content again.
I don't think it should be surprising that there are other people playing the game that enjoy a PvE aspect though and also prefer a grind/challenge.
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Man I really can't believe how many people are crying "Too easy!"...
This is 20% of Naxx, only the first wing (which is typically the easiest), and it's a card game... Card game expansions are typically just... more cards.
If people are forced to buy into a wing (real $ or gold) and continuously get beat down by the AI unless they have anything but the optimal deck and play at rank 5 + in constructed, they will not be too happy. Like most games, the top-end players are usually quite a small % of the full player base.
Blizz is actually giving us a "raid" in a card game - really don't get all the complaining. 700g is not a lot at all if you do dailies for 40-60g/day (plus 10 more every 3 wins), unless you are dumping gold into packs / losing a lot in Arena.
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On July 25 2014 22:27 pNRG wrote:
Man I really can't believe how many people are crying "Too easy!"...
This is 20% of Naxx, only the first wing (which is typically the easiest), and it's a card game... Card game expansions are typically just... more cards.
If people are forced to buy into a wing (real $ or gold) and continuously get beat down by the AI unless they have anything but the optimal deck and play at rank 5 + in constructed, they will not be too happy. Like most games, the top-end players are usually quite a small % of the full player base.
Blizz is actually giving us a "raid" in a card game - really don't get all the complaining. 700g is not a lot at all if you do dailies for 40-60g/day (plus 10 more every 3 wins), unless you are dumping gold into packs / losing a lot in Arena.
I am comparing the "raid" to other TCG video games like Yugioh forbidden memories or Pokemon the trading card game and those games came out 20 years ago and have better AI than the AI displayed in Naxx making them harder than these heroics.
Heroics aren't forced upon anyone they offer no rewards and should be a challenge. I don't understand why people expect to be able to beat heroics so easily when they are supposed to be difficult to everyone.
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Lets be honest, we can argue about AI beeing difficult to programm, but in the end If your AI is using battlerage to buff opponents minions without even killing them - you just dont give him that spell.
the same thing with the carddraw spell Farerlina uses, the AI has never used that spell to draw more than one card. Why give it to him? why not give her a new spell - draw three cards?
for heroic, the AIs poorly designed decks also factor in as why theyre so easy to beat. They dont play enough card draw and no real lategame (lol sea giant).
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On July 25 2014 22:27 pNRG wrote:
Man I really can't believe how many people are crying "Too easy!"...
This is 20% of Naxx, only the first wing (which is typically the easiest), and it's a card game... Card game expansions are typically just... more cards.
If people are forced to buy into a wing (real $ or gold) and continuously get beat down by the AI unless they have anything but the optimal deck and play at rank 5 + in constructed, they will not be too happy. Like most games, the top-end players are usually quite a small % of the full player base.
Blizz is actually giving us a "raid" in a card game - really don't get all the complaining. 700g is not a lot at all if you do dailies for 40-60g/day (plus 10 more every 3 wins), unless you are dumping gold into packs / losing a lot in Arena.
You should have played the WOW TCG raids. You weren't beating any of those by yourselves and people had to build specialized decks even with 3+ people to beat them efficiently.
Mind you, there was another person playing out the raid deck, but even with a decently programmed AI they could have wiped out your average joe schmo, the difficulty is what made it fun.
They could easily have made Hearthstone just as difficult.
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I also don't get why people would be disappointed. The main thing everyone thought about before launch was the new cards, and that's really the point. The battles themselves serve a simple purpose - to train people to be able to build decks to counter other decks. The heroic challenges simply push the concept harder, they're not supposed to be nigh impossible. Blizzard's description of the challenge was that it would require multiple attempts and deck revisions. That was the point. The class challenges serve the end of showing you a good counter-strategy once you've already beaten it, to further illustrate the point if it didn't come across on its own. When you recognize these bosses for what they are, it's very well put together. People don't complain about the Starcraft II campaign being too easy, because frankly who cares. It's simply a primer for the multiplayer content, always has been, it's the same here. Plus there's always the remaining 4 wings, there's plenty of room for things to get harder.
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On July 25 2014 22:32 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 22:27 pNRG wrote:
Man I really can't believe how many people are crying "Too easy!"...
This is 20% of Naxx, only the first wing (which is typically the easiest), and it's a card game... Card game expansions are typically just... more cards.
If people are forced to buy into a wing (real $ or gold) and continuously get beat down by the AI unless they have anything but the optimal deck and play at rank 5 + in constructed, they will not be too happy. Like most games, the top-end players are usually quite a small % of the full player base.
Blizz is actually giving us a "raid" in a card game - really don't get all the complaining. 700g is not a lot at all if you do dailies for 40-60g/day (plus 10 more every 3 wins), unless you are dumping gold into packs / losing a lot in Arena. I am comparing the "raid" to other TCG video games like Yugioh forbidden memories or Pokemon the trading card game and those games came out 20 years ago and have better AI than the AI displayed in Naxx making them harder than these heroics. Heroics aren't forced upon anyone they offer no rewards and should be a challenge. I don't understand why people expect to be able to beat heroics so easily when they are supposed to be difficult to everyone.
Are we talking about the Pokemon Online TCG? Because when I gave that a spin the 3-star AI would literally forget to attack several times over a match. Or other times do inane things like load up a fresh Pokemon with energy only to immediately swap it for a Pokemon with no energy.
Here's a question though. How many people complaining about how easy the heroic encounters spent time watching streams to see their AI / decks / attempts? Because that makes a huuuuge difference and seeing people fail (and a lot of streamers did, blame limited collections or what-not if you like) actually helps you learn a lot about the encounters (so in effect people who did this aren't really one-shotting it no matter what they think).
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On July 26 2014 03:29 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 22:32 Drazerk wrote:On July 25 2014 22:27 pNRG wrote:
Man I really can't believe how many people are crying "Too easy!"...
This is 20% of Naxx, only the first wing (which is typically the easiest), and it's a card game... Card game expansions are typically just... more cards.
If people are forced to buy into a wing (real $ or gold) and continuously get beat down by the AI unless they have anything but the optimal deck and play at rank 5 + in constructed, they will not be too happy. Like most games, the top-end players are usually quite a small % of the full player base.
Blizz is actually giving us a "raid" in a card game - really don't get all the complaining. 700g is not a lot at all if you do dailies for 40-60g/day (plus 10 more every 3 wins), unless you are dumping gold into packs / losing a lot in Arena. I am comparing the "raid" to other TCG video games like Yugioh forbidden memories or Pokemon the trading card game and those games came out 20 years ago and have better AI than the AI displayed in Naxx making them harder than these heroics. Heroics aren't forced upon anyone they offer no rewards and should be a challenge. I don't understand why people expect to be able to beat heroics so easily when they are supposed to be difficult to everyone. Are we talking about the Pokemon Online TCG? Because when I gave that a spin the 3-star AI would literally forget to attack several times over a match. Or other times do inane things like load up a fresh Pokemon with energy only to immediately swap it for a Pokemon with no energy. Here's a question though. How many people complaining about how easy the heroic encounters spent time watching streams to see their AI / decks / attempts? Because that makes a huuuuge difference and seeing people fail (and a lot of streamers did, blame limited collections or what-not if you like) actually helps you learn a lot about the encounters (so in effect people who did this aren't really one-shotting it no matter what they think).
I'm talking about the Gameboy game made in 1998 
I didn't look at any decks but the deck I ended up making for it is somewhat different to what other people have been linking but the base elements are the same which is always going to be the case I guess.
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EPT
