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On May 29 2009 05:26 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:18 Piy wrote:On May 29 2009 05:12 Aegraen wrote:
Do you realize that the costlier food is, the number of people starving increases? Whatever increases production, efficiency, and is generally called business practices, shouldn't be demonized unless of course you hold us as on equal grounds as the animals that populate the eco-systems around the globe.
You really don't have to hold people on equal grounds to animals to think this is retarded. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling, but whatever, I guess this is some peoples opinion. So using your logic it's prefectly justifiable for me to buy a dog and kick it around because it's fun? Because you seem to place absolutely no worth on animal suffering whatsoever. I don't consider humanity equal with animals, but they're certainly close enough to be worthy of consideration. I just don't see any other way of looking at this argument rationally. Did you read my second post in this thread? I urge to go back and re-read it then come back with something relevant to try and sling at me.
K, fair enough I'll respond to this. You say that animals shouldn't be treated badly outside of food production?
Well I think that you're being selective with your definition of suffering then. So we shouldn't treat animals poorly, but if we can treat them badly and make a profit thats fine. Wait, wut?
What if I was to rent out my dog and allow other people to kick it? thats giving me a profit, shame about the dog though.
But I can already see what you're thinking :p Thats not providing food for humanity. Of course I forgot we "need" to eat meat or we'll die of massive defficiencies. That explains how dead I am, and how dead my vegan friends are. Wait, wut?
Since you seem to appreciate that animals can suffer and that we should try and prevent their suffering in most cases, how can you justify intensively farming/killing animals when we don't need to? That just seems counter intuitive and baffles me.
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On May 29 2009 05:25 rei wrote:@baal just a reminder + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=154
baal was just temp banned for 1 week by EvilTeletubby.
That account was created on 2003-03-27 00:06:48 and had 10195 posts.
Reason:
On March 27 2009 13:42 TL.net Bot wrote:
baal was just temp banned for 2 days by EvilTeletubby.
That account was created on 2003-03-27 00:06:48 and had 10123 posts.
Reason: C'mon baal. Can you please for once have a debate without calling people idiots and morons?
On May 17 2009 06:55 baal wrote:
God what a fucking cunt, you live in an apartment complex full of college students when the vast majority parties all the time and you want to spoil it for everyone just cuz you decided to live there?
Move out dumbass, cant afford another place, suck it up.
Cunt and dumbass also not acceptable. Should I make a larger list for you?
HOLY SHIT SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH ME I BETTER CURSE AT THEM!!!!11
Seriously. Grow up.
Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 04:55 baal wrote:
Last time i read the TL.net commandments stupidity was a bannable offense, how come this retard isnt banned? or its because he is the moron keeping discussions alive with his stupid posts?
Seriously tlnet mods wtf are you doing.
Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 04:25 baal wrote:
i want to throw up every time you type a post, your stupidity is so overwhelming im sure a great part of it its just for trolling purposes.
Nobody is discussing the top of the foodchain, the fact we eat meat doesnt mean we have to make the annimal suffer for it entire life only to cut expenses, animals MUST be treated with dignity and minimizing pain. maybe you will get exactly what you asked for, the next one might be a month long too. "HOLY SHIT SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH ME I BETTER CURSE AT THEM!!!!11 Seriously. Grow up." -EvilTeletubby
Its not a different opinion, a different opinion is one from a vegetarian (me eating meat), a good discussion is the one im proposing saying that you can be for the better treatment of animals and support the cause and not being a vegetarian since the wrong here is animal suffering not consumption.
Now thats a different opinion and a discussion, what this moron posts is not an intelligent different opinion, its just plain stupidity.
It is a shame that i get banned for profuse swearing and this guy roams free tainting every discussion with his stupidity, it seems that in this forum political correctness is more important than actual substance.
In the past that idiot would have been banned in his first 5 posts.
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suffeli
Finland772 Posts
On May 29 2009 05:29 niteReloaded wrote:
If there is a way to go vegeterian without suffering from untasty food, losing health etc. I think I'll go for it.
Thanks for the video, I heard about the bad treatment of animals, but seeing it is a different thing.
I would try to gradually add more vegetarian products like lentils, beans, tofu to your daily meals (they will be your main source for proteins) and less meat... and you also need to learn yourself some new cooking skills since a proper tasty vegetarian dish requires a bit more work than pork ribs. But when you learn the basics its not that hard.
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is awesome32278 Posts
On May 29 2009 05:31 MoltkeWarding wrote:
If we're talking capital R Religion, it's obvious that both Aristotle and Plato were non-Religious moral thinkers. However moral arguments must be anchored to a belief system. In that sense, appealing for sensitivity to animals is dependent on appealing to man's sensitivity to men. An argument may then made on the basis of relevant similarities between us and various animals, although appealing for all animals in the same breath may be casting too wide a net. I love cats, and could never see one of them harmed, but would praise St. Patrick's service to Ireland in the same breath.
You can anchor your morals on logic. (don't use a scapegoat of "belief on your logical" on some shit like that).
On May 29 2009 05:31 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Without religion, there would be properly speaking, no argument against eating meat, whereas certain religions may deter carnivorism.
Care to elaborate?
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It seems to me that a lot of vegetarians have been brainwashed by the animal suffering videos to think that is the norm as far as meat production goes. All I have to say is that you are vastly mistaken. My grandfather owned and operated an organic farm, and all of his animals were treated with great care and were free to roam as they wished about the pasture. His farm isn't the only farm of this type, and I see no moral qualms about eating organic meat.
So my question to the vegetarians is, why don't you just eat organic meat?
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On May 29 2009 05:31 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:22 King K. Rool wrote:On May 29 2009 05:20 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:On May 29 2009 05:17 King K. Rool wrote:
Bolded is exactly why I'm not swayed at all from your arguments. I like to eat meat hence I endorse these methods.
You can like to do something while not supporting the harmful effects of it, you know. Liking the way meat tastes does not justify animal cruelty and ecological degradation. Unless you can get me a better rate with a better method, I'll be supporting this. If you're honest about the fact that you don't give a shit where your food comes from as long as it's 'efficient,' then go ahead and keep eating it i guess? One might say such a view point is morally questionable, but you don't seem to care
As I said before, it's only 'morally' questionable in the eyes of those who see animals on the same plain as humanity. We are not equals.
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On May 29 2009 05:32 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:25 Piy wrote:On May 29 2009 05:18 Aegraen wrote:On May 29 2009 05:11 Piy wrote:On May 29 2009 05:06 ProdT wrote:
Honestly animals only get this much attention because they can express pain and emotion, BUT WHO'S THINKING ABOUT THE PLANTS? Isn't farming them wrong too since they are living things? I don't see a PETP around defending their right to live.
In all seriousness, if lions were smart and could farm zebras, they would do it too. Why? Because its basic instinct to want to eat meat, and if there is an efficient way to get a steady supply of food, what kind of moron wouldn't take advantage of this? The world would be a different place if every time I wanted to eat something I'd have to go out and hunt wild animals (Who are seen being oh so happy at the end of the video, despite the end result being the same, death. (xcept im still hungry.)). Eating meat isn't an efficient way to get a steady supply of food. It's massively inefficient. You've really just put forward a confused argument for vegetarianism. Is animals dieing eventually really a justification for farming them and killing them 20 years sooner than they need to die. And people always say "People are above animals" but then they cite arguments like, well Lions kill zebras, so that means we can kill animals too. Confused fuzzy logic that people build around themselves to make themselves feel better. Meat is not massively inefficient. It is the best way to incorporate proteins, and many essential nutrients that your body needs. Cottage Cheese perhaps the best non meat product for protein lacks the nutrients that you obtain from eating meat. I'm not sure you know this, but meat costs money, and the production of said meat is a business and is relegated to all the same general business sense and rules as any others. Just untrue. Science has conclusively proven that people do not need to eat animal products. We can produce Vitamin B12 from non-animal derived products and are, in these englightened times, capable of living fully vegan lifestyles that provide everything your body needs. You're just buying into fast food propaganda if you think that we need to eat meat. So I'm going to stop answer your obvious attempts at trolling from now on. I work out a lot, and bodybuild. My lifestyle requires vast protein consumption. The best source for this: meat. I'm all for having more options. Why should you tell me what I can and cannot eat? Edit: Of course, we won't all die, but rapid overpopulation of animal populations coupled with extremely limited diets, deficiencies in many nutritional/mineral needs and lack of N3 fatty acids, ultimately leads to a less healthy lifestyle. Then again, I enjoy eating food, and not multivitamins.
I'm not really trying to tell you what you do, I'm just asking you to justify the way you live, which it looks as though you're having quite alot of trouble doing.
Their are vegan/vegetarian bodybuilders btw. You can easily get more protein than you need from a bean diet if thats really important to you...It's a myth that people who require large amounts of protein need meat though, it's just that you're told from a young age that meat = protein when actually protein occurs in a huge number of different food stuffs.
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On May 29 2009 05:29 niteReloaded wrote:
If there is a way to go vegeterian without suffering from untasty food, losing health etc. I think I'll go for it.
Eating no red meat is healthier than eating red meat. Plus, almost all western people eat meat every day, which is already bad in itself.
As for taste, most meat is given taste using vegetables and the like. Meat itself doesn't taste great. That's why. Only issue is probably the texture and how it's filling.
But I guess if you just hate eating vegetables you just won't enjoy it. Because there are many people that do. But that's just an unhealthy thing to do regardless of being a vegetarian or not.
So I think you should go for it.
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PETA are hypocritical terrorist supporters. I am not joking.
OP video is completely biased. Notice how all the footage is old and crappy? Because its not standard practice to abuse animals like that. A lot of that shit people went down for. And as far as the neck slicing and blood draining, that is the standard kosher (or jewish way) to kill animals. So blame the jews for that, lol. The more humane method is with things like a cattle prod which kills them instantly via electric shock.
I've got nothing wrong with vegetarians in general, but when they try to convert people they are just as bad as any other group. Most of them are just as uninformed or disinformed as anyone else because they only see these out of context old videos and base everything on that.
I am proud to eat meat, If suddenly the world died and reverted to the old hunter gatherer ways I would stay alive while you dumb vegetarians can turn pale-yellow and get more retarded from lack of proper nutrients in a human OMNIVORE diet.
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Logic is not an anchor but a link.
For vegetarian religions: Hinduism, Buddhism
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On May 29 2009 05:43 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I am proud to eat meat, If suddenly the world died and reverted to the old hunter gatherer ways I would stay alive while you dumb vegetarians can turn pale-yellow and get more retarded from lack of proper nutrients in a human OMNIVORE diet.
I would eat meat if I were a hunter gatherer.
Fact you say this shows you don't understand the motivations of vegetarians. Yet you talk about uninformed.
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On May 29 2009 05:34 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:26 Aegraen wrote:On May 29 2009 05:18 Piy wrote:On May 29 2009 05:12 Aegraen wrote:
Do you realize that the costlier food is, the number of people starving increases? Whatever increases production, efficiency, and is generally called business practices, shouldn't be demonized unless of course you hold us as on equal grounds as the animals that populate the eco-systems around the globe.
You really don't have to hold people on equal grounds to animals to think this is retarded. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling, but whatever, I guess this is some peoples opinion. So using your logic it's prefectly justifiable for me to buy a dog and kick it around because it's fun? Because you seem to place absolutely no worth on animal suffering whatsoever. I don't consider humanity equal with animals, but they're certainly close enough to be worthy of consideration. I just don't see any other way of looking at this argument rationally. Did you read my second post in this thread? I urge to go back and re-read it then come back with something relevant to try and sling at me. K, fair enough I'll respond to this. You say that animals shouldn't be treated badly outside of food production? Well I think that you're being selective with your definition of suffering then. So we shouldn't treat animals poorly, but if we can treat them badly and make a profit thats fine. Wait, wut? What if I was to rent out my dog and allow other people to kick it? thats giving me a profit, shame about the dog though. But I can already see what you're thinking :p Thats not providing food for humanity. Of course I forgot we "need" to eat meat or we'll die of massive defficiencies. That explains how dead I am, and how dead my vegan friends are. Wait, wut? Since you seem to appreciate that animals can suffer and that we should try and prevent their suffering in most cases, how can you justify intensively farming/killing animals when we don't need to? That just seems counter intuitive and baffles me.
Here, I'll explain this as simply as I can.
Food production needs to be streamlined, cost efficient, and ultimately whatever drives down the price of meat, is a good thing for humanity. The cheaper it is, the more available it becomes to a greater sect of humanity. I'm not sure you know this, but charities also buy food.
You also contradicted what I said in your first two paragraphs. You explicitly at least, in the first paragraph comprehended that I was talking about food production. Then in the next paragraph you somehow jump to dog kicking and profits, when I specifically laid out 'food production', IE not pets, nor wild animals that aren't being hunted. So, I'm confused if you understand what I'm saying or not.
It is in the best interest of humanity, to make food cheaper. Do you agree? If you arbitrarily raise food prices by regulation, and cut off unfortunate people from food, they otherwise could have afforded, how in any sense of morality do you justify yourself over me. You see, I'll say this again. I put humanity above animals. If an animals death causes its suffering, yet, the end product being cheaper than if we were to, say, minimize their pain at death which would increase the price, but in the process that increase of food caused one person to starve to death somewhere in the world because of the increased costs to say The Red Cross so they couldn't purchase as much do you still feel morally justified?
So, demonize me all you want. Feel superior. Fine and dandy. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
To your last point. I don't place totalitarian restrictions on what people can, and cannot eat. If you want to do that, I would wager North Korea would be more suitable if you can wiggle your way into government?
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On May 29 2009 05:46 Aegraen wrote:
So, demonize me all you want. Feel superior. Fine and dandy. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
rofl
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suffeli
Finland772 Posts
*Sigh* All these trolls... ruining a great thread for discussion.
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On May 29 2009 05:43 CharlieMurphy wrote:
PETA are hypocritical terrorist supporters. I am not joking.
OP video is completely biased. Notice how all the footage is old and crappy? Because its not standard practice to abuse animals like that. A lot of that shit people went down for. And as far as the neck slicing and blood draining, that is the standard kosher (or jewish way) to kill animals. So blame the jews for that, lol. The more humane method is with things like a cattle prod which kills them instantly via electric shock.
I've got nothing wrong with vegetarians in general, but when they try to convert people they are just as bad as any other group. Most of them are just as uninformed or disinformed as anyone else because they only see these out of context old videos and base everything on that.
I am proud to eat meat, If suddenly the world died and reverted to the old hunter gatherer ways I would stay alive while you dumb vegetarians can turn pale-yellow and get more retarded from lack of proper nutrients in a human OMNIVORE diet.
Vegetarians just don't want to see people killing animals when theres no need to, especially when few meat eaters have actually thought it through properly.
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On May 29 2009 05:42 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:32 Aegraen wrote:On May 29 2009 05:25 Piy wrote:On May 29 2009 05:18 Aegraen wrote:On May 29 2009 05:11 Piy wrote:On May 29 2009 05:06 ProdT wrote:
Honestly animals only get this much attention because they can express pain and emotion, BUT WHO'S THINKING ABOUT THE PLANTS? Isn't farming them wrong too since they are living things? I don't see a PETP around defending their right to live.
In all seriousness, if lions were smart and could farm zebras, they would do it too. Why? Because its basic instinct to want to eat meat, and if there is an efficient way to get a steady supply of food, what kind of moron wouldn't take advantage of this? The world would be a different place if every time I wanted to eat something I'd have to go out and hunt wild animals (Who are seen being oh so happy at the end of the video, despite the end result being the same, death. (xcept im still hungry.)). Eating meat isn't an efficient way to get a steady supply of food. It's massively inefficient. You've really just put forward a confused argument for vegetarianism. Is animals dieing eventually really a justification for farming them and killing them 20 years sooner than they need to die. And people always say "People are above animals" but then they cite arguments like, well Lions kill zebras, so that means we can kill animals too. Confused fuzzy logic that people build around themselves to make themselves feel better. Meat is not massively inefficient. It is the best way to incorporate proteins, and many essential nutrients that your body needs. Cottage Cheese perhaps the best non meat product for protein lacks the nutrients that you obtain from eating meat. I'm not sure you know this, but meat costs money, and the production of said meat is a business and is relegated to all the same general business sense and rules as any others. Just untrue. Science has conclusively proven that people do not need to eat animal products. We can produce Vitamin B12 from non-animal derived products and are, in these englightened times, capable of living fully vegan lifestyles that provide everything your body needs. You're just buying into fast food propaganda if you think that we need to eat meat. So I'm going to stop answer your obvious attempts at trolling from now on. I work out a lot, and bodybuild. My lifestyle requires vast protein consumption. The best source for this: meat. I'm all for having more options. Why should you tell me what I can and cannot eat? Edit: Of course, we won't all die, but rapid overpopulation of animal populations coupled with extremely limited diets, deficiencies in many nutritional/mineral needs and lack of N3 fatty acids, ultimately leads to a less healthy lifestyle. Then again, I enjoy eating food, and not multivitamins. I'm not really trying to tell you what you do, I'm just asking you to justify the way you live, which it looks as though you're having quite alot of trouble doing. Their are vegan/vegetarian bodybuilders btw. You can easily get more protein than you need from a bean diet if thats really important to you...It's a myth that people who require large amounts of protein need meat though, it's just that you're told from a young age that meat = protein when actually protein occurs in a huge number of different food stuffs.
www.abcbodybuilding.com
I'm quite versed in nutritional studies thank you. The caloric intake, and the quantity of beans > protein vice meat > protein prohibits such widespread consumption. Anyways, this is all besides the crux of the issue.
I'm wondering, if you want people to not eat meat, you propose the free roam of animal populations. What do you propose once the populations exceed safe numbers? Kill them?
Anyways, I'm not having any problems with the way I live. I don't have to justify it to anyone. I'm perfectly content and happy with who I am, and how I live. Are you? Do you feel you have to justify your existence? Questions to ponder over.
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On May 29 2009 05:45 Diomedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:43 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I am proud to eat meat, If suddenly the world died and reverted to the old hunter gatherer ways I would stay alive while you dumb vegetarians can turn pale-yellow and get more retarded from lack of proper nutrients in a human OMNIVORE diet.
I would eat meat if I were a hunter gatherer. Fact you say this shows you don't understand the motivations of vegetarians. Yet you talk about uninformed.
Vegetarians are the way they are for one of these reasons, some believe it is more healthy, some are just pro life, blah blah.
The fact of the matter is some of you vegans produce biased videos like this in order to try and convert people to your side just like any other bullshit religion or whatever.
On May 29 2009 05:42 Diomedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:29 niteReloaded wrote:
If there is a way to go vegeterian without suffering from untasty food, losing health etc. I think I'll go for it.
Eating no red meat is healthier than eating red meat. Plus, almost all western people eat meat every day, which is already bad in itself. As for taste, most meat is given taste using vegetables and the like. Meat itself doesn't taste great. That's why. Only issue is probably the texture and how it's filling. But I guess if you just hate eating vegetables you just won't enjoy it. Because there are many people that do. But that's just an unhealthy thing to do regardless of being a vegetarian or not. So I think you should go for it.
You are a retard if you believe this. lol people only eat meat to fill and the texture? Lol meat is only given taste by vegetables?
You think meat is unhealthy? This is exactly what I'm talking about, vegans trying to convince everyone that they are bad/wrong and need to convert to their cult.
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The average western human already eats way too much protein.
Vegetarians are the way they are for one of these reasons, some believe it is more healthy, some are just pro life, blah blah.
I am not 'pro life'. Yet I am a vegetarian. Do you really thing that if you ask a vegetarian "If you were a tiger, what would you do?" they will mostly answer "starve."
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Yesterday i wondered if there is an opposite to vegetarians?
Like, people that ONLY eat meat? :D
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On May 29 2009 05:31 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:22 King K. Rool wrote:On May 29 2009 05:20 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:On May 29 2009 05:17 King K. Rool wrote:
Bolded is exactly why I'm not swayed at all from your arguments. I like to eat meat hence I endorse these methods.
You can like to do something while not supporting the harmful effects of it, you know. Liking the way meat tastes does not justify animal cruelty and ecological degradation. Unless you can get me a better rate with a better method, I'll be supporting this. If you're honest about the fact that you don't give a shit where your food comes from as long as it's 'efficient,' then go ahead and keep eating it i guess? One might say such a view point is morally questionable, but you don't seem to care Pretty much. I eat meat, hence I like it when meat is cheaper (of course there are quality standards to think about too). I don't find this morally questionable, since I don't hold the same opinion you do about animals.
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EPT
