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On May 29 2009 05:11 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:06 ProdT wrote:
Honestly animals only get this much attention because they can express pain and emotion, BUT WHO'S THINKING ABOUT THE PLANTS? Isn't farming them wrong too since they are living things? I don't see a PETP around defending their right to live.
In all seriousness, if lions were smart and could farm zebras, they would do it too. Why? Because its basic instinct to want to eat meat, and if there is an efficient way to get a steady supply of food, what kind of moron wouldn't take advantage of this? The world would be a different place if every time I wanted to eat something I'd have to go out and hunt wild animals (Who are seen being oh so happy at the end of the video, despite the end result being the same, death. (xcept im still hungry.)). Eating meat isn't an efficient way to get a steady supply of food. It's massively inefficient. You've really just put forward a confused argument for vegetarianism. Is animals dieing eventually really a justification for farming them and killing them 20 years sooner than they need to die. And people always say "People are above animals" but then they cite arguments like, well Lions kill zebras, so that means we can kill animals too. Confused fuzzy logic that people build around themselves to make themselves feel better.
Meat is not massively inefficient. It is the best way to incorporate proteins, and many essential nutrients that your body needs.
Cottage Cheese perhaps the best non meat product for protein lacks the nutrients that you obtain from eating meat.
I'm not sure you know this, but meat costs money, and the production of said meat is a business and is relegated to all the same general business sense and rules as any others.
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I care for the welfare of animals used for food only once my needs/conveniences are met first. I know this may sound dick, but really, it's difficult to argue that you're NOT only feeling compassion/pity for animals because you're projecting human characteristics onto it. No one worries about the ethical treatment of fish or insects...they're not cute enough.
I think above all, people have many, many internal issues as a species that should be addressed before worrying so deeply about animals. I don't think gratuitous maltreatment of animals should be acceptable, but I'm not going to go terribly out of my way and significantly inconvenience myself for the sake of an animal that's going to get eaten either way.
In this vein, I have very little respect for moral vegetarians. I have no problem with people who avoid animal products for health reasons, but trying to justify it with a sense of morality that's obviously contingent and probably poorly constructed is dumb.
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On May 29 2009 05:12 Aegraen wrote:
Do you realize that the costlier food is, the number of people starving increases? Whatever increases production, efficiency, and is generally called business practices, shouldn't be demonized unless of course you hold us as on equal grounds as the animals that populate the eco-systems around the globe.
You really don't have to hold people on equal grounds to animals to think this is retarded. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling, but whatever, I guess this is some peoples opinion.
So using your logic it's prefectly justifiable for me to buy a dog and kick it around because it's fun? Because you seem to place absolutely no worth on animal suffering whatsoever. I don't consider humanity equal with animals, but they're certainly close enough to be worthy of consideration. I just don't see any other way of looking at this argument rationally.
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On May 29 2009 05:17 King K. Rool wrote:
Bolded is exactly why I'm not swayed at all from your arguments. I like to eat meat hence I endorse these methods.
You can like to do something while not supporting the harmful effects of it, you know. Liking the way meat tastes does not justify animal cruelty and ecological degradation.
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On May 29 2009 05:20 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:17 King K. Rool wrote:
Bolded is exactly why I'm not swayed at all from your arguments. I like to eat meat hence I endorse these methods.
You can like to do something while not supporting the harmful effects of it, you know. Liking the way meat tastes does not justify animal cruelty and ecological degradation.
Unless you can get me a better rate with a better method, I'll be supporting this.
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Humanity has been eating meat since the beginning of our existence, in fact it helped us succeed evolutionarily over other animals because we could eat such a diverse variety of food. I was dating a vegetarian for three years and never stopped eating meat, because it's just too damn delicious. Eventually she caved in at wendy's and now we're both happy carnivores.
I read somewhere that the main reason for the vegetarian movement is that death has been almost entirely removed from the everyday life of modern people. Nobody knows how to deal with death anymore, human or otherwise. Throughout history, however, people have had to deal with death in or around their homes all the time. It was a sacred thing back then, and everyone generally tried to avoid unnecessary suffering of their animals when sacrificing them for their meals. These days animals are processed in factories, and people have generally forgotten that there needs to be death for us to thrive.
Unlike the rest of the world, the people that work in these factories become desensitized to death, and some of them (likely with bad backgrounds of abuse or something) push it over the edge and cause unnecessary suffering for some sick pleasure.
Does that mean we should stop eating meat as a whole? In my opinion, hell no. Why let a few rotten apples spoil it for the whole bunch?
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Moltke - I highly dispute that the lack of a religion really means that it is impossible to make moral arguments
King K - those were the only 3 rational ways of approaching his somewhat vague argument. I tried to present counter examples for each of them.
And I just think you're appraoching the argument very poorly. You're only justification for eating meat is that you like it. What? How is that an argument for anything?
Just because we want to do things doesn't mean that we should do them, especially when there are healthier, more efficient and less cruel methods of finding food.
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On May 29 2009 05:16 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:12 Aegraen wrote:On May 29 2009 05:05 Xusneb wrote:On May 29 2009 04:31 Aegraen wrote:On May 29 2009 04:25 baal wrote:On May 29 2009 04:09 Aegraen wrote:
Can't watch it right now, but we are on the top of the food chain. Doesn't matter how the animals were killed ultimately the question is, is the food of better use eaten, or letting to decompose when the animal dies?
Obviously you can't wait 10+ years for animals to die to run a business.
To Phan, I think too many people get caught up in the fallacy that 'natural' = good. Many 'natural' things are horrible for your health, in fact, most things that are natural are. If most things natural were so good, then our early ancestors would have been much better off, sadly they weren't. i want to throw up every time you type a post, your stupidity is so overwhelming im sure a great part of it its just for trolling purposes. Nobody is discussing the top of the foodchain, the fact we eat meat doesnt mean we have to make the annimal suffer for it entire life only to cut expenses, animals MUST be treated with dignity and minimizing pain. Do you realize the whole point of the animals existence is to die and for us to eat them? This is called nature. Food is, yes a business. Do I want to spend 1.50$ for that LB. of meat, or do I want to spend 1.35$ for that LB. of meat. Is it feasible for small businesses (farmers), to increase costs? Pets and wild animals that aren't being hunted should be treated fairly and justly. Animals bred to be food, or those that are hunted, are fair game for the rules of conducting business. First line: Wow, I'm speechless. I never knew the sole purpose of an animal's existence was to feed us. Now I'm sure the slaughtered pig feels great for donating his body to the noble cause that is feeding us. Animals are living beings and the mammals we eat can suffer and feel a great deal of pain. If you believe humans transcend these animals then I suppose you can believe that we can do whatever the fuck we want with our food. However, I think living creatures deserve some mercy and should be spared the pain if possible. This egocentric view placing humans above everything else in nature is why we're facing overpopulation, famine, global warming, rainforest deforestation etc. etc. We keep this up and we're doomed so I sincerely hope the moral Zeitgeist of our time is changing. Do you realize that the costlier food is, the number of people starving increases? Whatever increases production, efficiency, and is generally called business practices, shouldn't be demonized unless of course you hold us as on equal grounds as the animals that populate the eco-systems around the globe. Intensive cattle and meat farming uses up a lot of food - corn, for one - that could be used to feed people. It also occupies land area that could be used to grow other varieties of crops. Meat is only one kind of food and if it gets more expensive people will find their nutrition elsewhere. I don't think your economic argument is very well proposed at all.
Do you realize that your body needs the nutrients and minerals that are in meat to survive? So, where would you then propose to get your protein from and other essential fatty acids?
Fish? Still meat and are farmed.
Dairy Products? Raised for the same purposes and costs 'food' for upkeep.
Secondly, you think that if we let these cows, pigs, etc. roam freely they don't eat anything? That suddenly you stop farming and the food expenditure for the animals survival is nulled? They'll still take up the same land.
Do you propose we just wipe them all out?
Isn't this antithesis to your 'moral' arguement that you're trying to make?
I don't think you thought this out very well at all.
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@baal
just a reminder
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=154
baal was just temp banned for 1 week by EvilTeletubby.
That account was created on 2003-03-27 00:06:48 and had 10195 posts.
Reason:
On March 27 2009 13:42 TL.net Bot wrote:
baal was just temp banned for 2 days by EvilTeletubby.
That account was created on 2003-03-27 00:06:48 and had 10123 posts.
Reason: C'mon baal. Can you please for once have a debate without calling people idiots and morons?
On May 17 2009 06:55 baal wrote:
God what a fucking cunt, you live in an apartment complex full of college students when the vast majority parties all the time and you want to spoil it for everyone just cuz you decided to live there?
Move out dumbass, cant afford another place, suck it up.
Cunt and dumbass also not acceptable. Should I make a larger list for you?
HOLY SHIT SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH ME I BETTER CURSE AT THEM!!!!11
Seriously. Grow up.
On May 29 2009 04:55 baal wrote:
Last time i read the TL.net commandments stupidity was a bannable offense, how come this retard isnt banned? or its because he is the moron keeping discussions alive with his stupid posts?
Seriously tlnet mods wtf are you doing.
On May 29 2009 04:25 baal wrote:
i want to throw up every time you type a post, your stupidity is so overwhelming im sure a great part of it its just for trolling purposes.
Nobody is discussing the top of the foodchain, the fact we eat meat doesnt mean we have to make the annimal suffer for it entire life only to cut expenses, animals MUST be treated with dignity and minimizing pain.
maybe you will get exactly what you asked for, the next one might be a month long too.
"HOLY SHIT SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH ME I BETTER CURSE AT THEM!!!!11
Seriously. Grow up." -EvilTeletubby
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is awesome32277 Posts
On May 29 2009 05:14 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +a) Animals were made by god for people to eat. This is a religious argument, so unless you're deeply religious (so religious that you take all the sciptures literally) it's VERY hard to justify eating meat On the contrary, it is only due to the scriptures that the world has been inundated with a general sense of universal community- the dignity of human and to a lesser extent, animal life. To the Greeks and Romans, to both Plato and Aristotle, it was self-evident that a slave was of a lower dignity than a citizen, not to mention animal to man. In the medieval mental order, an animal occupied a station above the plant and below man on the order of being- vegetables being higher than inanimate matter by virtue of its vegetative soul, animals being superior to the plant because its soul is both vegetative and sensitive, whereas man is vegetative, sensitive and rational. Without religion, there would be properly speaking, no argument against eating meat, whereas certain religions may deter carnivorism.
There are reasons not to eat meat beyond religion. What the fuck are you saying?
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On May 29 2009 05:18 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:11 Piy wrote:On May 29 2009 05:06 ProdT wrote:
Honestly animals only get this much attention because they can express pain and emotion, BUT WHO'S THINKING ABOUT THE PLANTS? Isn't farming them wrong too since they are living things? I don't see a PETP around defending their right to live.
In all seriousness, if lions were smart and could farm zebras, they would do it too. Why? Because its basic instinct to want to eat meat, and if there is an efficient way to get a steady supply of food, what kind of moron wouldn't take advantage of this? The world would be a different place if every time I wanted to eat something I'd have to go out and hunt wild animals (Who are seen being oh so happy at the end of the video, despite the end result being the same, death. (xcept im still hungry.)). Eating meat isn't an efficient way to get a steady supply of food. It's massively inefficient. You've really just put forward a confused argument for vegetarianism. Is animals dieing eventually really a justification for farming them and killing them 20 years sooner than they need to die. And people always say "People are above animals" but then they cite arguments like, well Lions kill zebras, so that means we can kill animals too. Confused fuzzy logic that people build around themselves to make themselves feel better. Meat is not massively inefficient. It is the best way to incorporate proteins, and many essential nutrients that your body needs. Cottage Cheese perhaps the best non meat product for protein lacks the nutrients that you obtain from eating meat. I'm not sure you know this, but meat costs money, and the production of said meat is a business and is relegated to all the same general business sense and rules as any others.
Just untrue. Science has conclusively proven that people do not need to eat animal products. We can produce Vitamin B12 from non-animal derived products and are, in these englightened times, capable of living fully vegan lifestyles that provide everything your body needs.
You're just buying into fast food propaganda if you think that we need to eat meat.
So I'm going to stop answer your obvious attempts at trolling from now on.
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On May 29 2009 05:18 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:12 Aegraen wrote:
Do you realize that the costlier food is, the number of people starving increases? Whatever increases production, efficiency, and is generally called business practices, shouldn't be demonized unless of course you hold us as on equal grounds as the animals that populate the eco-systems around the globe.
You really don't have to hold people on equal grounds to animals to think this is retarded. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling, but whatever, I guess this is some peoples opinion. So using your logic it's prefectly justifiable for me to buy a dog and kick it around because it's fun? Because you seem to place absolutely no worth on animal suffering whatsoever. I don't consider humanity equal with animals, but they're certainly close enough to be worthy of consideration. I just don't see any other way of looking at this argument rationally.
Did you read my second post in this thread? I urge to go back and re-read it then come back with something relevant to try and sling at me.
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Wow! I honestly didn't expect such a civilized and intelligent (with the exception of you know who ^^) discussion..
To answer the op I have been a vegetarian for almost 10 years.
I have never had any health problems and I exercise regularly without getting tired faster than other people or anything.
From my experience, except for the obvious fact that its healthier (unless you can grow your own animals or get them from someone who does), you may become a calmer person by not eating meat and your body becomes more sensitive - in a good way when it comes to food:
When you lack protein you feel a strong urge to eat cheese or we and same goes for fruit etc. You also enjoy the tastes and smells better.
All in all the nice people above have said pretty much all there is to be said against eating meat.
Edit: nm
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On May 29 2009 05:23 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:16 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:On May 29 2009 05:12 Aegraen wrote:On May 29 2009 05:05 Xusneb wrote:On May 29 2009 04:31 Aegraen wrote:On May 29 2009 04:25 baal wrote:On May 29 2009 04:09 Aegraen wrote:
Can't watch it right now, but we are on the top of the food chain. Doesn't matter how the animals were killed ultimately the question is, is the food of better use eaten, or letting to decompose when the animal dies?
Obviously you can't wait 10+ years for animals to die to run a business.
To Phan, I think too many people get caught up in the fallacy that 'natural' = good. Many 'natural' things are horrible for your health, in fact, most things that are natural are. If most things natural were so good, then our early ancestors would have been much better off, sadly they weren't. i want to throw up every time you type a post, your stupidity is so overwhelming im sure a great part of it its just for trolling purposes. Nobody is discussing the top of the foodchain, the fact we eat meat doesnt mean we have to make the annimal suffer for it entire life only to cut expenses, animals MUST be treated with dignity and minimizing pain. Do you realize the whole point of the animals existence is to die and for us to eat them? This is called nature. Food is, yes a business. Do I want to spend 1.50$ for that LB. of meat, or do I want to spend 1.35$ for that LB. of meat. Is it feasible for small businesses (farmers), to increase costs? Pets and wild animals that aren't being hunted should be treated fairly and justly. Animals bred to be food, or those that are hunted, are fair game for the rules of conducting business. First line: Wow, I'm speechless. I never knew the sole purpose of an animal's existence was to feed us. Now I'm sure the slaughtered pig feels great for donating his body to the noble cause that is feeding us. Animals are living beings and the mammals we eat can suffer and feel a great deal of pain. If you believe humans transcend these animals then I suppose you can believe that we can do whatever the fuck we want with our food. However, I think living creatures deserve some mercy and should be spared the pain if possible. This egocentric view placing humans above everything else in nature is why we're facing overpopulation, famine, global warming, rainforest deforestation etc. etc. We keep this up and we're doomed so I sincerely hope the moral Zeitgeist of our time is changing. Do you realize that the costlier food is, the number of people starving increases? Whatever increases production, efficiency, and is generally called business practices, shouldn't be demonized unless of course you hold us as on equal grounds as the animals that populate the eco-systems around the globe. Intensive cattle and meat farming uses up a lot of food - corn, for one - that could be used to feed people. It also occupies land area that could be used to grow other varieties of crops. Meat is only one kind of food and if it gets more expensive people will find their nutrition elsewhere. I don't think your economic argument is very well proposed at all. Do you realize that your body needs the nutrients and minerals that are in meat to survive? So, where would you then propose to get your protein from and other essential fatty acids? Fish? Still meat and are farmed. Dairy Products? Raised for the same purposes and costs 'food' for upkeep. Secondly, you think that if we let these cows, pigs, etc. roam freely they don't eat anything? That suddenly you stop farming and the food expenditure for the animals survival is nulled? They'll still take up the same land. Do you propose we just wipe them all out? Isn't this antithesis to your 'moral' arguement that you're trying to make? I don't think you thought this out very well at all.
There are ways to get your protein and Omega-3's without eating meat. If you're curious you can google, i'm not going to waste my time looking things up for you.
I like how you made up a proposal for me then pretended like it was something I actually said. Clever.
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If there is a way to go vegeterian without suffering from untasty food, losing health etc. I think I'll go for it.
Thanks for the video, I heard about the bad treatment of animals, but seeing it is a different thing.
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On May 29 2009 05:25 rei wrote:@baal just a reminder + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=154
baal was just temp banned for 1 week by EvilTeletubby.
That account was created on 2003-03-27 00:06:48 and had 10195 posts.
Reason:
On March 27 2009 13:42 TL.net Bot wrote:
baal was just temp banned for 2 days by EvilTeletubby.
That account was created on 2003-03-27 00:06:48 and had 10123 posts.
Reason: C'mon baal. Can you please for once have a debate without calling people idiots and morons?
On May 17 2009 06:55 baal wrote:
God what a fucking cunt, you live in an apartment complex full of college students when the vast majority parties all the time and you want to spoil it for everyone just cuz you decided to live there?
Move out dumbass, cant afford another place, suck it up.
Cunt and dumbass also not acceptable. Should I make a larger list for you?
HOLY SHIT SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH ME I BETTER CURSE AT THEM!!!!11
Seriously. Grow up.
Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 04:55 baal wrote:
Last time i read the TL.net commandments stupidity was a bannable offense, how come this retard isnt banned? or its because he is the moron keeping discussions alive with his stupid posts?
Seriously tlnet mods wtf are you doing.
Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 04:25 baal wrote:
i want to throw up every time you type a post, your stupidity is so overwhelming im sure a great part of it its just for trolling purposes.
Nobody is discussing the top of the foodchain, the fact we eat meat doesnt mean we have to make the annimal suffer for it entire life only to cut expenses, animals MUST be treated with dignity and minimizing pain. maybe you will get exactly what you asked for, the next one might be a month long too. "HOLY SHIT SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH ME I BETTER CURSE AT THEM!!!!11 Seriously. Grow up." -EvilTeletubby
I got a chuckle out of this. To be honest, as a libertarian/conservative I'm so used to it, it doesn't effect me at all.
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It's sad that whenever someone disagrees with another person's viewpoint they're instantly labeled a troll. Aegraen I am glad you put up with these guys who constantly try to insult you instead of arguing against you.
As for the video, it may be disgusting but I feel no remorse in buying and enjoying my delicious meat. Animals raised for food will always be thought of as food in my eyes.
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If we're talking capital R Religion, it's obvious that both Aristotle and Plato were non-Religious moral thinkers. However moral arguments must be anchored to a belief system. In that sense, appealing for sensitivity to animals is dependent on appealing to man's sensitivity to men. An argument may then made on the basis of relevant similarities between us and various animals, although appealing for all animals in the same breath may be casting too wide a net. I love cats, and could never see one of them harmed, but would praise St. Patrick's service to Ireland in the same breath.
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On May 29 2009 05:22 King K. Rool wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:20 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:On May 29 2009 05:17 King K. Rool wrote:
Bolded is exactly why I'm not swayed at all from your arguments. I like to eat meat hence I endorse these methods.
You can like to do something while not supporting the harmful effects of it, you know. Liking the way meat tastes does not justify animal cruelty and ecological degradation. Unless you can get me a better rate with a better method, I'll be supporting this.
If you're honest about the fact that you don't give a shit where your food comes from as long as it's 'efficient,' then go ahead and keep eating it i guess? One might say such a view point is morally questionable, but you don't seem to care
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On May 29 2009 05:25 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 05:18 Aegraen wrote:On May 29 2009 05:11 Piy wrote:On May 29 2009 05:06 ProdT wrote:
Honestly animals only get this much attention because they can express pain and emotion, BUT WHO'S THINKING ABOUT THE PLANTS? Isn't farming them wrong too since they are living things? I don't see a PETP around defending their right to live.
In all seriousness, if lions were smart and could farm zebras, they would do it too. Why? Because its basic instinct to want to eat meat, and if there is an efficient way to get a steady supply of food, what kind of moron wouldn't take advantage of this? The world would be a different place if every time I wanted to eat something I'd have to go out and hunt wild animals (Who are seen being oh so happy at the end of the video, despite the end result being the same, death. (xcept im still hungry.)). Eating meat isn't an efficient way to get a steady supply of food. It's massively inefficient. You've really just put forward a confused argument for vegetarianism. Is animals dieing eventually really a justification for farming them and killing them 20 years sooner than they need to die. And people always say "People are above animals" but then they cite arguments like, well Lions kill zebras, so that means we can kill animals too. Confused fuzzy logic that people build around themselves to make themselves feel better. Meat is not massively inefficient. It is the best way to incorporate proteins, and many essential nutrients that your body needs. Cottage Cheese perhaps the best non meat product for protein lacks the nutrients that you obtain from eating meat. I'm not sure you know this, but meat costs money, and the production of said meat is a business and is relegated to all the same general business sense and rules as any others. Just untrue. Science has conclusively proven that people do not need to eat animal products. We can produce Vitamin B12 from non-animal derived products and are, in these englightened times, capable of living fully vegan lifestyles that provide everything your body needs. You're just buying into fast food propaganda if you think that we need to eat meat. So I'm going to stop answer your obvious attempts at trolling from now on.
I work out a lot, and bodybuild. My lifestyle requires vast protein consumption. The best source for this: meat.
I'm all for having more options. Why should you tell me what I can and cannot eat?
Edit: Of course, we won't all die, but rapid overpopulation of animal populations coupled with extremely limited diets, deficiencies in many nutritional/mineral needs and lack of N3 fatty acids, ultimately leads to a less healthy lifestyle.
Then again, I enjoy eating food, and not multivitamins.
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