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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
I'd be more happy to eat my meat if i knew that the animals werent tortured over the top. I do think that it would be worth it to minimize the pain, i mean who wants to hurt animals? I like meat so i will continue to eat it. Plus i fucking hate alec baldwin. He sounds so "self important" and pretentious in whatever he does. Its like "wow look at my acting". argh | ||
suffeli
Finland772 Posts
IMHO it's really easy for me not to eat meat. If you have lived without meat for at least one year or so straight you learn to hate the fatty pork taste. I really admire vegan people since it requires a rigid mind and a dedicated ascetistic, balanced life style. Oh yeah... and when eating meat there is always the environmental issues. | ||
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prOxi.Beater
Denmark626 Posts
You shouldn't needlessly mistreat animals, but optimizing production is fine with me, even if it means the animal might get worse living conditions. As another person said, it's really all a matter of priority; there are so many worse things to worry about in the world than the wellfare of animals in big business. | ||
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Diomedes
464 Posts
And if you want you can eat just fish and white meat once in a while. It's healthier. And you can really make some choices there that also improve a lot in terms of animal suffering and sustainability/enviroment. And then if you want you can still eat whatever you want occasionally at a party or something. But modern western society is pretty much adjusted to handle vegetarians anyway. So it's also no longer a practical problem. There is absolutely no excuse. Animals existed long before humans ever did. It's like saying it rains because the plants and trees need water. Children's logic. | ||
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baal
10541 Posts
On May 29 2009 04:31 Aegraen wrote: }Do you realize the whole point of the animals existence is to die and for us to eat them? This is called nature. Food is, yes a business. Do I want to spend 1.50$ for that LB. of meat, or do I want to spend 1.35$ for that LB. of meat. Is it feasible for small businesses (farmers), to increase costs? Pets and wild animals that aren't being hunted should be treated fairly and justly. Animals bred to be food, or those that are hunted, are fair game for the rules of conducting business. Last time i read the TL.net commandments stupidity was a bannable offense, how come this retard isnt banned? or its because he is the moron keeping discussions alive with his stupid posts? Seriously tlnet mods wtf are you doing. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
On May 29 2009 04:31 Aegraen wrote: Do you realize the whole point of the animals existence is to die and for us to eat them? This is called nature. Food is, yes a business. Do I want to spend 1.50$ for that LB. of meat, or do I want to spend 1.35$ for that LB. of meat. Is it feasible for small businesses (farmers), to increase costs? Pets and wild animals that aren't being hunted should be treated fairly and justly. Animals bred to be food, or those that are hunted, are fair game for the rules of conducting business. Oh goody  I've been waiting for a vegetarian topic for a long time. I'm a vegan, so let me disect these arguments a little Alright, a couple of ways of coming at this argument: a) Animals were made by god for people to eat. This is a religious argument, so unless you're deeply religious (so religious that you take all the sciptures literally) it's VERY hard to justify eating meat or intensively farming animals for the purpose of profit. I'd rather not get into it here but I'll PM you it later if you're interested. b) We breed the animals to eat them. Therefore they fulfill their purpose. I don't see how this magically justifies it, as a paedophile could easily have a child and then abuse it, fulfilling the purpose of the child, and yet that doesn't seem to morally justify it. c) Animals don't know any different. Well, maybe, but any sentient being prefers not being in pain to being in pain. Even then, is it ok to keep a small child locked in a box for its entire life since it doesn't know any different? Since when is intensive farming called nature? Why is something that's natural causing so many health problems? Why is something that's natural so massively inefficient? Why is something being natural even remotely important? Want to have a look at your other statement. Is it better to buy meat for 15 cents cheaper...Well for a number of reasons I think this is a pretty horrific way of looking at things, but whatever. But lets have a quick look at this. Animals are a very inefficient way of eating. A cow produces I believe 1:52 the nutrition of it's feed (or what could comparatively been grown on the land that the feed was grown on). Meat is expensive. But this has a few knock on problems. In order to maximise the amount of profit the farmer must ensure that the animal grows as quickly as possible. They cut corners in their maintenence of the animals well being in order to increase profits. I take it almost everyone abhors battery farming and intensive farming. If you don't...well... But here is the problem. Because meat is so inefficient and because there are so many people in the world, if you want to continue eating meat these intensive farming methods must be utilised. Otherwise not enough can be produced. Because of this, I think it's pretty difficult to justify eating any kind of animal product. Obviously this is just scratching the surface of a huge debate, but any questions? | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 29 2009 04:55 Piy wrote: Oh goody I've been waiting for a vegetarian topic for a long time. I'm a vegan, so let me disect these arguments a little Alright, a couple of ways of coming at this argument: a) Animals were made by god for people to eat. This is a religious argument, so unless you're deeply religious (so religious that you take all the sciptures literally) it's VERY hard to justify eating meat or intensively farming animals for the purpose of profit. I'd rather not get into it here but I'll PM you it later if you're interested. b) We breed the animals to eat them. Therefore they fulfill their purpose. I don't see how this magically justifies it, as a paedophile could easily have a child and then abuse it, fulfilling the purpose of the child, and yet that doesn't seem to morally justify it. c) Animals don't know any different. Well, maybe, but any sentient being prefers not being in pain to being in pain. Even then, is it ok to keep a small child locked in a box for its entire life since it doesn't know any different? Since when is intensive farming called nature? Why is something that's natural causing so many health problems? Why is something that's natural so massively inefficient? Why is something being natural even remotely important? Want to have a look at your other statement. Is it better to buy meat for 15 cents cheaper...Well for a number of reasons I think this is a pretty horrific way of looking at things, but whatever. But lets have a quick look at this. Animals are a very inefficient way of eating. A cow produces I believe 1:52 the nutrition of it's feed (or what could comparatively been grown on the land that the feed was grown on). Meat is expensive. But this has a few knock on problems. In order to maximise the amount of profit the farmer must ensure that the animal grows as quickly as possible. They cut corners in their maintenence of the animals well being in order to increase profits. I take it almost everyone abhors battery farming and intensive farming. If you don't...well... But here is the problem. Because meat is so inefficient and because there are so many people in the world, if you want to continue eating meat these intensive farming methods must be utilised. Otherwise not enough can be produced. Because of this, I think it's pretty difficult to justify eating any kind of animal product. Obviously this is just scratching the surface of a huge debate, but any questions? I hold humanity above animals. You hold humanity as level to animals. Therefore we can never come to any consensus. It's pointless to even argue. Edit: Not sure if you know this, but humans are omnivores. We require extensive amounts of protein to function. Anyways, demonize the opposing viewpoints. Never gets old.. | ||
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Xusneb
Canada612 Posts
On May 29 2009 04:31 Aegraen wrote: Do you realize the whole point of the animals existence is to die and for us to eat them? This is called nature. Food is, yes a business. Do I want to spend 1.50$ for that LB. of meat, or do I want to spend 1.35$ for that LB. of meat. Is it feasible for small businesses (farmers), to increase costs? Pets and wild animals that aren't being hunted should be treated fairly and justly. Animals bred to be food, or those that are hunted, are fair game for the rules of conducting business. First line: Wow, I'm speechless. I never knew the sole purpose of an animal's existence was to feed us. Now I'm sure the slaughtered pig feels great for donating his body to the noble cause that is feeding us. Animals are living beings and the mammals we eat can suffer and feel a great deal of pain. If you believe humans transcend these animals then I suppose you can believe that we can do whatever the fuck we want with our food. However, I think living creatures deserve some mercy and should be spared the pain if possible. This egocentric view placing humans above everything else in nature is why we're facing overpopulation, famine, global warming, rainforest deforestation etc. etc. We keep this up and we're doomed so I sincerely hope the moral Zeitgeist of our time is changing. | ||
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ProdT
United States170 Posts
In all seriousness, if lions were smart and could farm zebras, they would do it too. Why? Because its basic instinct to want to eat meat, and if there is an efficient way to get a steady supply of food, what kind of moron wouldn't take advantage of this? The world would be a different place if every time I wanted to eat something I'd have to go out and hunt wild animals (Who are seen being oh so happy at the end of the video, despite the end result being the same, death. (xcept im still hungry.)). | ||
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Xusneb
Canada612 Posts
On May 29 2009 04:55 baal wrote: } Last time i read the TL.net commandments stupidity was a bannable offense, how come this retard isnt banned? or its because he is the moron keeping discussions alive with his stupid posts? Seriously tlnet mods wtf are you doing. Yes, I agree. Please ban him. There is absolutely nothing worthwhile coming from him. It's like he's purposely posting to incite a flame war. Even I, a lowly lurker, was tempted to enter it! | ||
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UnitarySpace
United States61 Posts
On the other hand meat is extraordinarily efficient in terms of nutrition per unit of volume. | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 29 2009 05:06 Xusneb wrote: Yes, I agree. Please ban him. There is absolutely nothing worthwhile coming from him. It's like he's purposely posting to incite a flame war. Even I, a lowly lurker, was tempted to enter it! Fascism is alive and well in these here neck of the woods. If you don't like my viewpoints, then by all means ignore them, or not, I don't care. Suppression of expression (like that eh), is tantamount to fascism. | ||
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Ido
Germany661 Posts
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
Not every country has standards that low to get away with, etc... For instance, they have cows lifted in the air and throats slit? wtf Common way (least i was taught in culinary) for cows dying was being forced to stand and then had an object thrust insanely quickly into their brain killing them instantly, so that there would be no pain. Blood is then drained from the animal, etc... Chickens/Turkeys are almost always treated that bad, ducks treated even worse. Pigs it depends on the government standards on how they are raised, pigs tend to get a rather diverse lifestyle. Also note, if you hate this style of meat, just eat freerange and the like meat, as it usually means they lived a decent life. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
On May 29 2009 05:06 ProdT wrote: Honestly animals only get this much attention because they can express pain and emotion, BUT WHO'S THINKING ABOUT THE PLANTS? Isn't farming them wrong too since they are living things? I don't see a PETP around defending their right to live. In all seriousness, if lions were smart and could farm zebras, they would do it too. Why? Because its basic instinct to want to eat meat, and if there is an efficient way to get a steady supply of food, what kind of moron wouldn't take advantage of this? The world would be a different place if every time I wanted to eat something I'd have to go out and hunt wild animals (Who are seen being oh so happy at the end of the video, despite the end result being the same, death. (xcept im still hungry.)). Eating meat isn't an efficient way to get a steady supply of food. It's massively inefficient. You've really just put forward a confused argument for vegetarianism. Is animals dieing eventually really a justification for farming them and killing them 20 years sooner than they need to die. And people always say "People are above animals" but then they cite arguments like, well Lions kill zebras, so that means we can kill animals too. Confused fuzzy logic that people build around themselves to make themselves feel better. | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 29 2009 05:05 Xusneb wrote: First line: Wow, I'm speechless. I never knew the sole purpose of an animal's existence was to feed us. Now I'm sure the slaughtered pig feels great for donating his body to the noble cause that is feeding us. Animals are living beings and the mammals we eat can suffer and feel a great deal of pain. If you believe humans transcend these animals then I suppose you can believe that we can do whatever the fuck we want with our food. However, I think living creatures deserve some mercy and should be spared the pain if possible. This egocentric view placing humans above everything else in nature is why we're facing overpopulation, famine, global warming, rainforest deforestation etc. etc. We keep this up and we're doomed so I sincerely hope the moral Zeitgeist of our time is changing. Do you realize that the costlier food is, the number of people starving increases? Whatever increases production, efficiency, and is generally called business practices, shouldn't be demonized unless of course you hold us as on equal grounds as the animals that populate the eco-systems around the globe. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
a) Animals were made by god for people to eat. This is a religious argument, so unless you're deeply religious (so religious that you take all the sciptures literally) it's VERY hard to justify eating meat On the contrary, it is only due to the scriptures that the world has been inundated with a general sense of universal community- the dignity of human and to a lesser extent, animal life. To the Greeks and Romans, to both Plato and Aristotle, it was self-evident that a slave was of a lower dignity than a citizen, not to mention animal to man. In the medieval mental order, an animal occupied a station above the plant and below man on the order of being- vegetables being higher than inanimate matter by virtue of its vegetative soul, animals being superior to the plant because its soul is both vegetative and sensitive, whereas man is vegetative, sensitive and rational. Without religion, there would be properly speaking, no argument against eating meat, whereas certain religions may deter carnivorism. | ||
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
On May 29 2009 05:12 Aegraen wrote: Do you realize that the costlier food is, the number of people starving increases? Whatever increases production, efficiency, and is generally called business practices, shouldn't be demonized unless of course you hold us as on equal grounds as the animals that populate the eco-systems around the globe. Intensive cattle and meat farming uses up a lot of food - corn, for one - that could be used to feed people. It also occupies land area that could be used to grow other varieties of crops. Meat is only one kind of food and if it gets more expensive people will find their nutrition elsewhere. I don't think your economic argument is very well proposed at all. | ||
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King K. Rool
Canada4408 Posts
a) Animals were made by god for people to eat. This is a religious argument, so unless you're deeply religious (so religious that you take all the sciptures literally) it's VERY hard to justify eating meat or intensively farming animals for the purpose of profit. I'd rather not get into it here but I'll PM you it later if you're interested. b) We breed the animals to eat them. Therefore they fulfill their purpose. I don't see how this magically justifies it, as a paedophile could easily have a child and then abuse it, fulfilling the purpose of the child, and yet that doesn't seem to morally justify it. But they're animals, and the kid is human. There's actual laws against that sort of stuff, so... unless there's laws I see no problems with intensive farming in order to produce food for humans.c) Animals don't know any different. Well, maybe, but any sentient being prefers not being in pain to being in pain. Even then, is it ok to keep a small child locked in a box for its entire life since it doesn't know any different? Again, humans and animals. I personally think pain should be minimalized, and there are some gratuitous things, but the point is this sort of intensive farming is needed to feed all these humans (or meat eaters if you prefer not to be lumped together with us).Since when is intensive farming called nature? Why is something that's natural causing so many health problems? Why is something that's natural so massively inefficient? Why is something being natural even remotely important? Want to have a look at your other statement. Is it better to buy meat for 15 cents cheaper...Well for a number of reasons I think this is a pretty horrific way of looking at things, but whatever. But lets have a quick look at this. Animals are a very inefficient way of eating. A cow produces I believe 1:52 the nutrition of it's feed (or what could comparatively been grown on the land that the feed was grown on). Meat is expensive. But the point is we want to eat meat, and this way is more efficient than whatever other ways there are (grazing?).But this has a few knock on problems. In order to maximise the amount of profit the farmer must ensure that the animal grows as quickly as possible. They cut corners in their maintenence of the animals well being in order to increase profits. I take it almost everyone abhors battery farming and intensive farming. If you don't...well... Bolded is exactly why I'm not swayed at all from your arguments. I like to eat meat hence I endorse these methods.But here is the problem. Because meat is so inefficient and because there are so many people in the world, if you want to continue eating meat these intensive farming methods must be utilised. Otherwise not enough can be produced. Because of this, I think it's pretty difficult to justify eating any kind of animal product. Obviously this is just scratching the surface of a huge debate, but any questions? | ||
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ProdT
United States170 Posts
On May 29 2009 05:11 Piy wrote: Eating meat isn't an efficient way to get a steady supply of food. It's massively inefficient. You've really just put forward a confused argument for vegetarianism. Is animals dieing eventually really a justification for farming them and killing them 20 years sooner than they need to die. And people always say "People are above animals" but then they cite arguments like, well Lions kill zebras, so that means we can kill animals too. Confused fuzzy logic that people build around themselves to make themselves feel better. I'm not trying to make myself feel better, this is how my species has evolved over time and It doesn't bother me one bit when I look at these videos because I know these animals are going to feed another type of animal who has managed to create the arts, music, even go into space. Is this species superior? Sure. We have managed to fuck up the planet and all but we are still leagues above pigs in terms of complexity and potential to produce. I think vegans are the ones who feel self-righteous when they eat their tofu thinking they are making a difference when they never will. People are not going to stop eating meat because a select few decide to only eat plants, its impossible. Even if by some miracle a good fraction of people ate only plants there would still be people eating meat and thus, still animals being slaughtered etc. I think you guys need to get over it, your great ancestors ate meat, people around you eat meat, practically everyone eats meat and there has to be a way to feed everyone. I just think you guys should stop trying to fight against basic instinct because you see a few documentaries in third world countries where pigs get their throats slit. | ||
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