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Liberal Press Bias - Page 23
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
The end. afk conservapedia for fantasy world. | ||
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outqast
United States287 Posts
On December 08 2008 05:13 fusionsdf wrote: saying someone is predisposed to sickle cell anemia based on genetics is one thing, saying they are predisposed to robbery is another. As for IQ, there are again societal factors at play that cant just be discredited. You cant just assume that IQ is directly related to genes People of a particular descent have stronger correlations with certain diseases. Many people of similar descent have the same skin color. That doesn't mean necessarily that that race has anything to do with diseases, like sickle-cell anemia. In fact, it is well known fact that many "white" Italians and Europeans in the Mediterranean region have strong sickle cell anemia in their families. Black people who are not from regions with Malaria, are not likely to have sickle-cell anemia. In other words, it has to do with the region of the world their family is from not their skin color (just in some cases skin color is correlated with region) | ||
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On December 08 2008 04:28 Wysp wrote: When it starts out with a guy saying something that costed him all his honour in scientific community (for there was no testing done...) its pretty obvious a big shitfest. I'm not going to go ahead and discredit catagorically everything in your link (nice last post by the way.) But, when it begins by giving you misinformation its pretty safe to say they are lying, and trying to misdirect you (the goal of propaganda.) WHAT misinformation? It's obvious you didn't even read so much as the first 2 paragraphs. I read a good deal of that article when it was published and I'm familiar with the content. If you don't have anything beyond vague smears ("lie", "propaganda", "misinformation", "shiftfest") WITHOUT A SINGLE CONCRETE CRITICISM then read the goddamn article or don't post. | ||
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On December 08 2008 05:44 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Holy fuck, the IQ test was made by white men to judge how white-smart people are. There was a study where they made a black IQ test to judge how black-smart people were, and the scores by race were almost reversed. You seem like a logical person, but your thought process and conclusion in this post are fucking stupid. Look. Just because you are ignorant, doesn't mean my logic is faulty. This is a ridiculous style of posting, so common on TL.net. You not only write why you think I'm wrong, but you needlessly insult me based on my conclusions. It doesn't even occur to you that, just maybe, I have a rebuttal to your counterpoints. Yet you preclude further discussion by your attitude. | ||
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
It is the same thing I linked before, but when Wysp baselessly shat on it people may have been compelled to ignore it. It is a very informed article, and answers many of the objections by the IQ/race deniers, and I stand by it 100%. The article begins by condemning the disgraceful treatment of James Watson a year ago at the hands of the media and much of the scientific community, which owes him so much. It might not change anyone's mind in the end, but the considerable evidence and argumentation presented should at least make people take its claims more seriously. I won't be able to reply for a long time as I have work to do, but hopefully a few people will read and learn something. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On December 07 2008 12:46 HnR)hT wrote: Crime rates in Britain are through the roof (they are really astronomical compared to what they were 100 years ago). “Britain is not in the middle of a crime wave. In fact, crime is generally on the decline. In London, for example, the Metropolitan Police’s own figures reveal that there has been a steady drop in crime rates for the past 10 years (3). It’s a similar picture across England and Wales. The British Crime Survey reports that ‘crime is now at the lowest ever level since the first results in 1981’ (4). While the media seem obsessed with murders of young people, especially in London, the UK still has one of the world’s lowest rates of youth homicide (5).” http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/5998/ On December 07 2008 13:07 HnR)hT wrote: It is an incontrovertible empirical fact that different human races and ethnic groups took different evolutionary paths starting from the last 50,000 years or so, and that these differences are large and significant enough to have repercussions for living in modern Western societies. Your definition of incontrovertible must be different from mine. On December 08 2008 00:19 HnR)hT wrote: But in fact VERY FEW women are physically So? What about the ones who are? and mentally capable Justification? On December 08 2008 03:39 HnR)hT wrote: The current iq test data basically says that the black average is 85 and the asian average is 105. It means quite a few blacks are smarter than the average asian, and quite a few asians are dumber than the average black. This, and your subsequent analysis, rests on the assumption that IQ tests is an accurate reflection of “innate” intelligence, whereas it is extremely unlikely that this is a case. | ||
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outqast
United States287 Posts
On December 08 2008 09:36 HnR)hT wrote: Here is something everyone interested in IQ and race should read: http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/10/james-watson-tells-inconvenient-truth_296.php It is the same thing I linked before, but when Wysp baselessly shat on it people may have been compelled to ignore it. It is a very informed article, and answers many of the objections by the IQ/race deniers, and I stand by it 100%. The article begins by condemning the disgraceful treatment of James Watson a year ago at the hands of the media and much of the scientific community, which owes him so much. It might not change anyone's mind in the end, but the considerable evidence and argumentation presented should at least make people take its claims more seriously. I won't be able to reply for a long time as I have work to do, but hopefully a few people will read and learn something. I just read it and it was not very persuasive. | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
On December 08 2008 00:16 HnR)hT wrote: I would say the most important goal of modern liberalism is hyper-individualism and non-discrimination at any cost, even when it leads to absurd results like women in combat, widespread race- and sex-based affirmative action, harsh speech codes and mandatory sensitivity training workshops, or national suicide through uncontrolled mass immigration. Conservatives understand the restrictiveness of human nature, the importance of culture, ancestral wisdom and loyalty to one's family and country. Of course many modern rank-and-file "conservatives" don't fit this characterization of conservatism. I sure hope so. But I believe that the motive for all the things you've listed is not truly individualism, but increasing government control for the purpose of communism. If Obama isn't a communist, then he will reverse all of the executive orders from President Bush that have taken away our basic rights. | ||
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MaZza[KIS]
Australia2110 Posts
it's interesting how all the demographics that include INFORMED people such as the press, those with high IQ and such and such are against bush... You know.. Everyone that I've ever talked to from America and everyone who I've shared my stories with tells me the same thing: People in America don't get ALL the news. They're sometimes surprised when I talk to them about current world events. You don't see the bad sh*t you guys are doing. That's why the media's against Bush... because they're the ones who DO see it but are told NOT TO report on it by their superiors... understood? I've had a person from America (who's been living in Australia for a while) comment on the fact that the news in this (australia) country is, and I quote, "depressing". Yes, perhaps if you had more depressing news then you wouldn't be so keen to wage war. Just a thought... | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On December 08 2008 10:44 fight_or_flight wrote: I sure hope so. But I believe that the motive for all the things you've listed is not truly individualism, but increasing government control for the purpose of communism. If Obama isn't a communist, then he will reverse all of the executive orders from President Bush that have taken away our basic rights. learn what communism is, k thx | ||
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lakrismamma
Sweden543 Posts
On December 07 2008 02:47 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: In this world, the only truly objective thing is FakeSteve's Power Rank Yeah so when will that be out?? Let me get some news I can trust in!! | ||
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Rev0lution
United States1805 Posts
On December 07 2008 05:13 Tadzio00 wrote: More Jeff Cohen. Thanks, I didn't see this video yet. Very insightful (even if its just one perspective) | ||
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Rev0lution
United States1805 Posts
On December 08 2008 05:46 Boblion wrote: Race is an oversimplified word for people who have no clue about history, anthropology nor genetics. spare me the superiority complex. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On December 08 2008 09:12 HnR)hT wrote: Look. Just because you are ignorant, doesn't mean my logic is faulty. This is a ridiculous style of posting, so common on TL.net. You not only write why you think I'm wrong, but you needlessly insult me based on my conclusions. It doesn't even occur to you that, just maybe, I have a rebuttal to your counterpoints. Yet you preclude further discussion by your attitude. I'm not saying that genetics and heredity do not play a role in racial differences. I'm saying that you can't say that blacks are dumber on average than asians are based on a white IQ test.' What's really ironic here is that the guy spouting the racist posts is calling me ignorant. | ||
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Fzero
United States1503 Posts
On December 08 2008 12:06 Rev0lution wrote: Thanks, I didn't see this video yet. Very insightful (even if its just one perspective) I'll add to this. Getting tired of the line of discussion in here. http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=out foxed&sitesearch=#sitesearch=&q=outfoxed | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
On December 08 2008 09:12 HnR)hT wrote: Look. Just because you are ignorant, doesn't mean my logic is faulty. This is a ridiculous style of posting, so common on TL.net. You not only write why you think I'm wrong, but you needlessly insult me based on my conclusions. It doesn't even occur to you that, just maybe, I have a rebuttal to your counterpoints. Yet you preclude further discussion by your attitude. Let's stop talking about IQ tests. They've been dismissed by the scientific community as useless for over 50 years. The tests originated to help determine what jobs people should be placed in and were mislabeled in such a way as to indicate that they are supposedly objective measures of intellectual capacity. Let's also stop talking about racial and sexual differences as if they're anything more than stereotypes with a modest amount of data to suggest they may be true in many cases. Even if you can prove them to be true, they are still useless in a social sense, simply because individual merit and not measured predisposition and assumption are what we judge people by. It's impossible to suggest (using valid logic, in any case) that any such judgements - those based on stereotypes and predispositions - are objective. As a society we choose not to indulge certain primal urges. You don't punch someone in the nuts because they mispronounced Iraq. You don't dismiss a vast subset of the population because they might be more likely to be less intelligent than you are. This is the flip side of the coin on the point I made earlier, about how conservatives want to legislate morals that provide no benefit to society but only to individual belief - gay marriage vs murder, etc. Racists want society to behave in a way that doesn't benefit the society at large by being openly prejudicial against a certain group - it only benefits their individual beliefs and protects their little fantasy land they've constructed in their heads. And as for what the guy from New Zealand (sorry forgot your ID) said about "liberal bias" and how conservatives use labels - that's exactly right and what Fox News, for example, is all about. Label it, dismiss it. "it's just something the liberals think" ... "it's just the liberal media" ... "it's just those godless atheists"... it's a great way to avoid debate and avoid exposing your lunatic viewers to anything resembling impartiality  | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
On December 08 2008 11:25 MaZza[KIS] wrote: yes it's interesting how all the demographics that include INFORMED people such as the press, those with high IQ and such and such are against bush... You know.. Everyone that I've ever talked to from America and everyone who I've shared my stories with tells me the same thing: People in America don't get ALL the news. They're sometimes surprised when I talk to them about current world events. You don't see the bad sh*t you guys are doing. That's why the media's against Bush... because they're the ones who DO see it but are told NOT TO report on it by their superiors... understood? I've had a person from America (who's been living in Australia for a while) comment on the fact that the news in this (australia) country is, and I quote, "depressing". Yes, perhaps if you had more depressing news then you wouldn't be so keen to wage war. Just a thought... Thanks to the internet, we do - we just have to work harder for it  But hey, ignorance is bliss. Americans would rather, in general, just be entertained and fed opinions than educate themselves and treat knowledge as something valuable and worthwhile. And even more importantly, they'll do anything to avoid having their beliefs challenged. Willful ignorance. It's a disgusting thing -_- | ||
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aRod
United States758 Posts
I think there is a lot of good data in the article. Here's a little tid bit from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study looking at IQ differences between individuals adopted from birth. This shows different households has an effect on IQ and this effect correlates with race. Basically, you put a black child with white parents and the IQ obtained is 10-14 points higher. However whites still performed about 6-8 points higher on average. + Show Spoiler + IQ at Age 7 IQ at Age 17 W-W 111.5 W-W 101.5 W-B 105.4 W-B 93.2 B-B 91.4 B-B 83.7 Also there are a set of identified genes with a statistically significant correlate with IQ score. Note: the numbers and letters are gene labels. + Show Spoiler + "Let's look at rs:760761, rs:2619522 and rs:2619538, all of which are associated with increased or decreased intelligence in DTNBP1. Regarding rs:760761, 18% of Europeans carry the T allele, which knocks about 8 points off the ol' IQ, compared to around 7% of East Asians and 37% of blacks. Regarding rs:2619522, the numbers are similar. 18% of whites carry the G allele, which knocks about 7 points off the ol' IQ, versus around 8% of Asians and 35-36% of blacks... Regarding rs:2619538, 61% of whites carry the T allele, which adds about 6.5 points to one's IQ, versus about 1% of Asians and 67% of blacks... If 6% more blacks carry the T allele than whites (67% vs. 61%) on rs:2619538, and the T allele codes for 6.5 FSIQ (full scale IQ) points, then this gives blacks an advantage of .4 IQ points over whites from this SNP. Also, if 60% more whites carry the T allele than Asians, and the T allele codes for 6.5 FSIQ points, than this gives whites an advantage of 3.9 IQ points over Asians from this SNP. So the cumulative effect thus far would be: minus 3.6 points for blacks relative to whites; and minus 0.2 points for East Asians relative to whites. The article also sites IQ studies from individuals of various sub-Saharan African nations. + Show Spoiler + Ghana IQ: 67 Studies: 4 IQ: 80 Age: Adults N: 225 Test: CF Ref: Buj, V. (1981). Average IQ values in various European countries. Personality and Individual Differences, 2, 168-169. IQ: 62 Age: 15 N: 1,693 Test: CPM Ref: Glewwe, P. and Jaccoby, H. (1992). Estimating the determinants of Cognitive Achievement in Low Income Countries. Washington, D.C.: World Bank. IQ: 65 (266) Age: 16 N: 5,100 Test: TIMSS 2003 Ref: Martin, M.O., Mullis, I.V.S., & Chrostowski, S.J. (Eds.) (2004). TIMSS 2003 Technical Report. Chestnut Hill, MA: TIMSS & PIRLS International Study Center, Boston College. IQ: 67 TIMSS 2003: 266 (65) TIMSS sum: 301 TIMSS+PIRLS sum: 304 Sum: 300 Guinea IQ: 67 Studies: 2 IQ: 63 Age: 5-14 N: 50 Test: AAB Ref: Nissen, H. W., Machover, S. and Kinder, E. F. (1935). A study of performance tests given to a group of native African Negro children. British Journal of Psychology, 25, 308-355. IQ: 70 Age: Adults N: 1,144 Test: SPM Ref: Faverge, J. M. and Falmagne, J. C. (1962). On the interpretation of data in intercultural psychology. Psychologia Africana, 9, 22-96. Nigeria IQ: 69 Studies: 5 IQ: 70 Age: Children N: 480 Test: Leone Ref: Farron, O. (1966). The test performance of coloured children. Educational Research, 8, 42-57. IQ: 64 Age: Adults N: 86 Test: SPM Ref: Wober, M. (1969). The meaning and stability of Raven's matrices test among Africans. International Journal of Psychology, 4, 220-235. IQ: 69 Age: 6-13 N: 375 Test: CPM Ref: Fahrmeier, E. D. (1975). The effect of school attendance on intellectual development in Northern Nigeria. Child Development, 46, 281-285. IQ: 79 (401) Age: 15 N: 2,368 Test: IEA-R 1991 Ref: Elley, W. B. (1992). How in the world do students read? The Hague: IEA. IQ: 69 ISARS: 34 (69) Sierra Leone IQ: 64 Studies: 2 IQ: 64 Age: Adults N: 122 Test: CPM Ref: Berry, J. W. (1966). Temne and Eskimo perceptual skills. International Journal of Psychology, 1, 207-229. IQ: 64 Age: Adults N: 33 Test: CPM Ref: Binnie-Dawson, J. L. (1984). Biosocial and endocrine bases of spatial ability. Psychologia, 27, 129-151. Considering most African Americans are the decendants of slaves who came from Sub Saharan Africa like modern day Sierra Leone when you raise these individuals in a white household being adopted from birth we see the IQ rise to 105 (age 7) and 93 (age 17). The article doesn't make this point, but that wasn't the articles intent. I found this an interesting point made by the article that illustrates the horrible effects of Rap music and gang culture. + Show Spoiler + Contrary to the above claims, differences in intelligence between income groups are not larger than intelligence differences between racial groups in the US, nor do differences in income or wealth account for the racial differences. Whites from households in the lowest income bracket have higher IQ scores than blacks from households in the highest income bracket: Basically the article only sites one cross racial experience study and that is the Minnesota adoption study. This study suggest small difference between IQs obtained between whites and blacks growing up in white households (8 points). Now can these 8 points be accounted for in race? Hard to say. I wonder how things would appear if Blacks were the majority, whites the minority, we had the majority of whites listening to rap instead, and blacks playing lacross and water polo. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On December 08 2008 14:30 aRod wrote: Back took me a while to catch up, I read the article HT posted on Racial differences in intelligence and it was rather good. I think there is a lot of good data in the article. Here's a little tid bit from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study looking at IQ differences between individuals adopted from birth. This shows different households has an effect on IQ and this effect correlates with race. Basically, you put a black child with white parents and the IQ obtained is 10-14 points higher. However whites still performed about 6-8 points higher on average. + Show Spoiler + IQ at Age 7 IQ at Age 17 W-W 111.5 W-W 101.5 W-B 105.4 W-B 93.2 B-B 91.4 B-B 83.7 Also there are a set of identified genes with a statistically significant correlate with IQ score. Note: the numbers and letters are gene labels. + Show Spoiler + "Let's look at rs:760761, rs:2619522 and rs:2619538, all of which are associated with increased or decreased intelligence in DTNBP1. Regarding rs:760761, 18% of Europeans carry the T allele, which knocks about 8 points off the ol' IQ, compared to around 7% of East Asians and 37% of blacks. Regarding rs:2619522, the numbers are similar. 18% of whites carry the G allele, which knocks about 7 points off the ol' IQ, versus around 8% of Asians and 35-36% of blacks... Regarding rs:2619538, 61% of whites carry the T allele, which adds about 6.5 points to one's IQ, versus about 1% of Asians and 67% of blacks... If 6% more blacks carry the T allele than whites (67% vs. 61%) on rs:2619538, and the T allele codes for 6.5 FSIQ (full scale IQ) points, then this gives blacks an advantage of .4 IQ points over whites from this SNP. Also, if 60% more whites carry the T allele than Asians, and the T allele codes for 6.5 FSIQ points, than this gives whites an advantage of 3.9 IQ points over Asians from this SNP. So the cumulative effect thus far would be: minus 3.6 points for blacks relative to whites; and minus 0.2 points for East Asians relative to whites. The article also sites IQ studies from individuals of various sub-Saharan African nations. + Show Spoiler + Ghana IQ: 67 Studies: 4 IQ: 80 Age: Adults N: 225 Test: CF Ref: Buj, V. (1981). Average IQ values in various European countries. Personality and Individual Differences, 2, 168-169. IQ: 62 Age: 15 N: 1,693 Test: CPM Ref: Glewwe, P. and Jaccoby, H. (1992). Estimating the determinants of Cognitive Achievement in Low Income Countries. Washington, D.C.: World Bank. IQ: 65 (266) Age: 16 N: 5,100 Test: TIMSS 2003 Ref: Martin, M.O., Mullis, I.V.S., & Chrostowski, S.J. (Eds.) (2004). TIMSS 2003 Technical Report. Chestnut Hill, MA: TIMSS & PIRLS International Study Center, Boston College. IQ: 67 TIMSS 2003: 266 (65) TIMSS sum: 301 TIMSS+PIRLS sum: 304 Sum: 300 Guinea IQ: 67 Studies: 2 IQ: 63 Age: 5-14 N: 50 Test: AAB Ref: Nissen, H. W., Machover, S. and Kinder, E. F. (1935). A study of performance tests given to a group of native African Negro children. British Journal of Psychology, 25, 308-355. IQ: 70 Age: Adults N: 1,144 Test: SPM Ref: Faverge, J. M. and Falmagne, J. C. (1962). On the interpretation of data in intercultural psychology. Psychologia Africana, 9, 22-96. Nigeria IQ: 69 Studies: 5 IQ: 70 Age: Children N: 480 Test: Leone Ref: Farron, O. (1966). The test performance of coloured children. Educational Research, 8, 42-57. IQ: 64 Age: Adults N: 86 Test: SPM Ref: Wober, M. (1969). The meaning and stability of Raven's matrices test among Africans. International Journal of Psychology, 4, 220-235. IQ: 69 Age: 6-13 N: 375 Test: CPM Ref: Fahrmeier, E. D. (1975). The effect of school attendance on intellectual development in Northern Nigeria. Child Development, 46, 281-285. IQ: 79 (401) Age: 15 N: 2,368 Test: IEA-R 1991 Ref: Elley, W. B. (1992). How in the world do students read? The Hague: IEA. IQ: 69 ISARS: 34 (69) Sierra Leone IQ: 64 Studies: 2 IQ: 64 Age: Adults N: 122 Test: CPM Ref: Berry, J. W. (1966). Temne and Eskimo perceptual skills. International Journal of Psychology, 1, 207-229. IQ: 64 Age: Adults N: 33 Test: CPM Ref: Binnie-Dawson, J. L. (1984). Biosocial and endocrine bases of spatial ability. Psychologia, 27, 129-151. Considering most African Americans are the decendants of slaves who came from Sub Saharan Africa like modern day Sierra Leone when you raise these individuals in a white household being adopted from birth we see the IQ rise to 105 (age 7) and 93 (age 17). The article doesn't make this point, but that wasn't the articles intent. I found this an interesting point made by the article that illustrates the horrible effects of Rap music and gang culture. + Show Spoiler + Contrary to the above claims, differences in intelligence between income groups are not larger than intelligence differences between racial groups in the US, nor do differences in income or wealth account for the racial differences. Whites from households in the lowest income bracket have higher IQ scores than blacks from households in the highest income bracket: Basically the article only sites one cross racial experience study and that is the Minnesota adoption study. This study suggest small difference between IQs obtained between whites and blacks growing up in white households (8 points). Now can these 8 points be accounted for in race? Hard to say. I wonder how things would appear if Blacks were the majority, whites the minority, we had the majority of whites listening to rap instead, and blacks playing lacross and water polo. Or say, if blacks had designed the IQ test. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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