EPTProp 8 Passes/Overturned - California Bans/Unbans Gay Marr…
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
but really, that particular proposition is unnecessary. merely show that religious ideals, or in general, cultural judgments, have no warrant to legal enforcement. the enforcement of a certain conception of marriage by law is the key issue here. | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
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hozz
Germany12 Posts
1. My suggestion concerning gay marriage *Spoilered, as it's not my main point. Read if you are interested* + Show Spoiler + There should be two kinds of marriages, independent of each other: Civil marriage: can be done by any two (or more >  ) human adults who want it. Gives you all legal rights and stuff and everything which has something to do with the country/state.Further issues (e.g. adopting children) have to be discussed separately ("would gays be worse parents? etc.") But same civil/legal rights for the married people themselves. No effect on religious things at all. Religious marriage: any religion can have some ceremony and then say "those two are married by us now". Who is allowed to marry that kind of way is decided by the religion (who else, it's their club, they can do what they want - I can create my rainbow church or something if I want religious gay marriage). Has no effect on legal treatment of people at all. So the country/state distinguishes "civil marriage Yes/No" ONLY. Every religion distinguishes "our religious marriage Yes/No" ONLY. E-Z. 2. BEING GAY IS NOT AN EFFING CHOICE!!! This is what pisses me off, people claiming that. It's just not true! NOT TRUE! Which bastard invented that? One is gay whether he/she likes it or not. It is as fixed as being black or white or tall or small. It does not matter which way (or when) it is biologically determined (genetics, or genetics + hormons + whatever we maybe don't even know exists), it is. Period. Believe me. I know it! I don't lie (why should I?). Who still does not believe me, how much sense would such a choice make if it was a choice? None? Right! There is exactly one choice regarding being gay: a) You accept you're gay (or more general, you accept how you obviously are - there are more shades than 100 straight vs. 100% gay). b) You don't accept you're gay and pretend not to be. Which has nothing to do if you are gay, or not. It's only how you live (and basically, wether you are happy or not). If you are gay, marry a woman, have 5 children, never touch a man, you still are gay. If you aren't gay, you can f**k the entire San Francisco male population and tatoo a big "GAY!!!" on your forehead, you still are not. There is no choice how some people think it is. The only choice is how to live with what you are. As well is it not possible to influence somebody to be gay or not (it is only possible to have an already gay person realize and/or accept it). Please tell that everyone who gives arguments like "Gay marriage mentioned at schools will make my kid gay!". Dear parents, you cannot control wether your kid is (there is no "becomes") gay or not, you can only support him/her or decide to not do that. Which may very well break your kid (hint from my side  ).3. @ people like Murk If you say gays are disgusting and you hate them, fine. Really. That's your opinion. Which is perfectly legit. You vote against gay marriage? Not nice. Let's say, if a proposition ("prop" yes? my English is not good enough) passes which makes church service a crime and turns every church into a supermarket, you'd also have to accept that I vote "Yes" on that. Would you? "I hate you, you hate me, but I am stronger (so far)" is not exactly the best argument. My experience is, people claim a lot but get very very very whiny when somebody treats them equally in consequence. Being nice to each other is generally the better way. --- Thanks everyone for reading (you did that, right;)) | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On November 06 2008 11:44 Murk wrote: Homosexuality is a sin, and marriage is a holy thing, it shouldnt of never been allowed in the first place. a Preist that host gay marriages is making a mockery of everything hes supposed to stand for, and im not talking out of my ass homosexuality IS A SIN read the bible http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXJzybEeJM There's my argument, and btw I'm a christian, and I believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry. | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
On November 07 2008 05:23 MoltkeWarding wrote: The US constitution doesn't define marriage; if people have a fundamental right to marry in the broad definition of the term, ought we not repeal all anti-incest laws? Interestingly, while I'm oversimplifying a bit, people do have a "fundamental right" to marriage. Of course, the right was found partly by looking at the place of hetero marriage in history. Regardless, fund right (in the marr context) just means gov must have a compelling purpose to infringe upon the right and the means they use must be "necc." (which can just be a brick wall). FUCK I HATE CON LAW. | ||
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R1CH
Netherlands10340 Posts
Question for those who think being gay is a choice: What made you choose to be straight and when did you make this decision? | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On November 07 2008 05:23 MoltkeWarding wrote: The US constitution doesn't define marriage; if people have a fundamental right to marry in the broad definition of the term, ought we not repeal all anti-incest laws? Incest is a bit different in that there are proven medical/health concerns with incest, which I'm sure most are aware of. That's assuming that by incest, you're referring to sex between related persons, and not some sort of legally-recognized relationship called "marriage" between two related people that doesn't involve intercourse. | ||
jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
Bible says man and woman. Bible says being gay is retarded. Therefore Yes on Prop 8. Call me ignorant. I will ignore. | ||
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jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
On November 07 2008 06:13 XaI)CyRiC wrote: Incest is a bit different in that there are proven medical/health concerns with incest, which I'm sure most are aware of. That's assuming that by incest, you're referring to sex between related persons, and not some sort of legally-recognized relationship called "marriage" between two related people that doesn't involve intercourse. Over 60% of HIV cases in the past year were resultant from gays. | ||
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Hans-Titan
Denmark1711 Posts
On November 07 2008 06:00 LG)Sabbath wrote: http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXJzybEeJM There's my argument, and btw I'm a christian, and I believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry. OOHOOH! The west wing! Awesome! Jed Bartlet to the rescue! | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On November 07 2008 06:00 LG)Sabbath wrote: http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXJzybEeJM There's my argument, and btw I'm a christian, and I believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry. Quite a nice argument made there in that clip. I won't pretend to know enough about the Bible to know if what he says is actually true, but that is some convincing material in support of not following the Bible to the letter if it is. I'm not sure if that post is relevant to Prop 8 or the discussion of Christianity in general, but putting it in the context of a fictional depiction of the US government handling the issue of homosexuality is enough for me to let it slide. It'd be interesting what would happen if a California government official made a similar statement to the public in opposition to Prop 8. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On November 07 2008 05:59 hozz wrote: Hello, i am gay and registered @TL (thought reading for years, amazing site) just to clear some points. 1. My suggestion concerning gay marriage *Spoilered, as it's not my main point. Read if you are interested* + Show Spoiler + There should be two kinds of marriages, independent of each other: Civil marriage: can be done by any two (or more > ) human adults who want it. Gives you all legal rights and stuff and everything which has something to do with the country/state.Further issues (e.g. adopting children) have to be discussed separately ("would gays be worse parents? etc.") But same civil/legal rights for the married people themselves. No effect on religious things at all. Religious marriage: any religion can have some ceremony and then say "those two are married by us now". Who is allowed to marry that kind of way is decided by the religion (who else, it's their club, they can do what they want - I can create my rainbow church or something if I want religious gay marriage). Has no effect on legal treatment of people at all. So the country/state distinguishes "civil marriage Yes/No" ONLY. Every religion distinguishes "our religious marriage Yes/No" ONLY. E-Z. 2. BEING GAY IS NOT AN EFFING CHOICE!!! This is what pisses me off, people claiming that. It's just not true! NOT TRUE! Which bastard invented that? One is gay whether he/she likes it or not. It is as fixed as being black or white or tall or small. It does not matter which way (or when) it is biologically determined (genetics, or genetics + hormons + whatever we maybe don't even know exists), it is. Period. Believe me. I know it! I don't lie (why should I?). Who still does not believe me, how much sense would such a choice make if it was a choice? None? Right! There is exactly one choice regarding being gay: a) You accept you're gay (or more general, you accept how you obviously are - there are more shades than 100 straight vs. 100% gay). b) You don't accept you're gay and pretend not to be. Which has nothing to do if you are gay, or not. It's only how you live (and basically, wether you are happy or not). If you are gay, marry a woman, have 5 children, never touch a man, you still are gay. If you aren't gay, you can f**k the entire San Francisco male population and tatoo a big "GAY!!!" on your forehead, you still are not. There is no choice how some people think it is. The only choice is how to live with what you are. As well is it not possible to influence somebody to be gay or not (it is only possible to have an already gay person realize and/or accept it). Please tell that everyone who gives arguments like "Gay marriage mentioned at schools will make my kid gay!". Dear parents, you cannot control wether your kid is (there is no "becomes") gay or not, you can only support him/her or decide to not do that. Which may very well break your kid (hint from my side ).3. @ people like Murk If you say gays are disgusting and you hate them, fine. Really. That's your opinion. Which is perfectly legit. You vote against gay marriage? Not nice. Let's say, if a proposition ("prop" yes? my English is not good enough) passes which makes church service a crime and turns every church into a supermarket, you'd also have to accept that I vote "Yes" on that. Would you? "I hate you, you hate me, but I am stronger (so far)" is not exactly the best argument. My experience is, people claim a lot but get very very very whiny when somebody treats them equally in consequence. Being nice to each other is generally the better way. --- Thanks everyone for reading (you did that, right;)) thanks for your thoughtful post, and nice arguments about supermarkets . i think because you speak from experience, you have more of a right than me to say whether it is a choice or not.up till now, i considered homosexuality a genetic predisposition similar to the genetic predisposition to obesity. but if it really is something "hardwired" into you, then i need to reevalute some things. can i ask you some questions? if you find them offensive, please know it's not my intent. - me, when i was 9 i realized i liked a girl. did you have a similar realization that you liked boys? - often, especially those that are religious, we are told to postpone or deny immediate happiness for future happiness. do you feel your happiness is dependent on your sexual orientation such that you cannot deny it? (if this question sounds completely retarded, like asking "is water wet", i'm sorry -- i just don't know) | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On November 07 2008 06:24 jkillashark wrote: Holy matrimony and marriage definitions originate from the Bible. Bible says man and woman. Bible says being gay is retarded. Therefore Yes on Prop 8. Call me ignorant. I will ignore. The history of a word doesn't determine it's usage and meaning in the present. "Gay" was never meant to refer to homosexuality, and yet everyone refers to homosexual marriage as "gay marriage". That's just one of MANY examples of the meanings and usages of words changing throughout history. Trying to deny that marriage has become a secular institution within the scope of the US government and its laws, and thus Prop 8, just makes you look ignorant and not in touch with reality. But apparently you're okay with that, so no harm. | ||
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Augury
United States758 Posts
On November 07 2008 06:24 jkillashark wrote: Holy matrimony and marriage definitions originate from the Bible. Bible says man and woman. Bible says being gay is retarded. Therefore Yes on Prop 8. Call me ignorant. I will ignore. Holy matrimony and marriage definitions originate from the Bible. - not true :/ There's evidence of 'marriage' being used before Christianity, also considering that the Bible was originally written in Hebrew, I find it hard to believe that it was the origin for an English word. Edit: The English word marriage is based off of a Latin word used by the Romans if anyone is curious :/. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On November 07 2008 06:24 jkillashark wrote:Over 60% of HIV cases in the past year were resultant from gays. Show me a medical study that proves that homosexuality has any relationship to the contraction of the HIV virus. Show me a study that actually explains that statistic. Simply throwing a statistic out there like that won't convince anyone with half a brain. | ||
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Augury
United States758 Posts
On November 07 2008 02:13 d_so wrote: LOL you should really try to avoid ambiguous statements with inferences of superiority before you make any claims ^_^ Not trying to sound superior, but it was a comment on Paul's character, which I thought was self explanatory. | ||
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Masamune
Canada3401 Posts
On November 07 2008 06:39 XaI)CyRiC wrote: Show me a medical study that proves that homosexuality has any relationship to the contraction of the HIV virus. Show me a study that actually explains that statistic. Simply throwing a statistic out there like that won't convince anyone with half a brain. Not to mention the fact that worldwide, more cases of HIV are introduced through heterosexual sex. I always love these types of discussions on TL because its gives me a chance to recognize the idiots on these forums. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On November 07 2008 06:35 vsrooks wrote: Holy matrimony and marriage definitions originate from the Bible. - not true :/ There's evidence of 'marriage' being used before Christianity, also considering that the Bible was originally written in Hebrew, I find it hard to believe that it was the origin for an English word. From what I've read, "holy matrimony" is indeed a Christian term, but "marriage" is not. Marriage existed in societies prior to Christianity, and in countries/societies that had no relation to Christianity. This is assuming that by "marriage" jkillshark wasn't just referring to Christian marriage, since marriage in the US is not restricted to just Christian marriage. | ||
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Augury
United States758 Posts
On November 07 2008 06:51 XaI)CyRiC wrote: From what I've read, "holy matrimony" is indeed a Christian term, but "marriage" is not. Marriage existed in societies prior to Christianity, and in countries/societies that had no relation to Christianity. This is assuming that by "marriage" jkillshark wasn't just referring to Christian marriage, since marriage in the US is not restricted to just Christian marriage. That's correct | ||
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