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it's a value judgment thing. are american lives more important or are japanese lives more important? should keep in mind that if we lost the war, a lot of our leaders would probably be on trial for crimes against humanity or something like that.
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On November 03 2008 05:52 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2008 05:51 Boonbag wrote:On November 03 2008 05:47 Jibba wrote:Hoho, looks like I tainted your idol. Russell kicks ass, but for a time he DID advocate preventative war. From Paul Johnson's book: "Russell may have hated war but there were times when he loved force. There was something aggressive, even bellicose, about his pacifism. Aftel the initial declaration of war, he wrote, 'For several weeks I felt that ff I should happen to meet Asquith or Grey I should be unable to refrain from murder.' In fact, some time later he did come across Asquith Russell emerged from swimming at Garsington Manor, stark naked, to find the Prime Minister sitting on the bank. But his anger had cooled by now and instead of murdering him, he embarked on a discussion of Plato, Asquith being a fine classical scholar. The great editor under whom I served, Kingsley Martin, who knew Russell well, often used to say that all the most pugnacious people he had come across were pacifists, and instanced Russell. Russell's pupil T. S. Eliot said the same: '[Russell] considered any excuse good enough for homicide.' It was not that Russell had any taste for fisticuffs. But he was in some ways an absolutist who believed in total solutions. He returned more than once to the notion of an era of perpetual peace being imposed on the world by an initial act of forceful statesmanship.
"The first time this idea occurred to him was towards the end of the First World War when he argued that America should use its superior power to insist on disarmament: 'The mixture of races and the comparative absence of a national tradition make America peculiarly suited to the fulfillment of this task." Then, when America secured a monopoly of nuclear weapons, in 1946-49, the suggestion returned with tremendous force. Since Russell later tried to deny, obfuscate or explain away his views during this period, it is important to set them out in some detail and in chronological order. As his biographer Ronald Clark has established, he advocated a preventative war against Russia not once but many times and over several years. Unlike most members of the left, Russell had never been taken in by the Soviet regime. He had always rejected Marxism completely. The book in which he described his 1920 visit to Russia, The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism (1920), was highly critical of Lenin and what he was doing. He regarded Stalin as a monster and accepted as true the fragmentary accounts of the forced collectivization, the great famine, the purges and the camps which reached the West. In all these ways he was quite untypical of the progressive intelligentsia. Nor did he share the complacency with which, in 1944-45, they accepted the extension of Soviet rule to most of Eastern Europe. To Russell this was a catastrophe for Western civilization. 'I hate the Soviet government too much for sanity,' he wrote on 15 January 1945. He believed that Soviet expansion would continue unless halted by the threat or use of force. In a letter dated 1 September 1945 he asserted: 'I think Stalin has inherited Hitler's ambition to world dictatorship.' Hence, when the first nuclear weapons were exploded by the US over Japan, he immediately resurrected his view that America should impose peace and disarmament on the world, using the new weapons to coerce a recalcitrant Russia. To him it was a heaven-sent opportunity which might never recur. He first set out his strategy in articles in the Labour journal Forward, published in Glasgow 18 August 1945, and the Manchester Guardian, 2 October. There was a further article on the same theme in Cavalcade, 20 October. This was entitled 'Humanity's Last Chance' and included the significant remark 'A casus belli would not be difficult to find.'
"Russell reiterated these or similar views over a period of five years. He set them out in Polemic, July-August 1946, in a talk to the Royal Empire Society on 3 December 1947 printed in the United Empire, January-February 1948 and New Commonwealth, January 1948, in a lecture at the Imperial Defence College, 9 December 1947, repeated on various occasions, at a student conference at Westminster School, November 1948, printed in the Nineteenth Century and After, January 1949, and again in an article in World Horizon in March 1950. He did not mince his words. The Royal Empire Society talk proposed an alliance - adumbrating NATO - which would then dictate terms to Russia: 'I am inclined to think that Russia would acquiesce; if not, provided this is done soon, the world might survive the resulting war and emerge with a single government such as the world needs.' 'If Russia overruns Western Europe,' he wrote to an American disarmament expert, Dr Walter Marseille, in May 1948, 'the destruction will be such as no subsequent reconquest can undo. Practically the whole educated population will be sent to labour camps in north-east Siberia or on the shores of the White Sea, where most will die of hardship and the survivors will be turned into animals. Atomic bombs, if used, will at first have to be dropped on Western Europe, since Russia will be out of reach. The Russians, even without atomic bombs, will be able to destroy all the big towns in England ...I have no doubt that America would win in the end, but unless Western Europe can be preserved from invasion, it will be lost to civilization for centuries. Even at such a price, I think war would be worth while. Communism must be wiped out, and world government must be estab-lished.' Russell constantly stressed the need for speed: 'Sooner or later, the Russians will have atom bombs, and when they have them it will be a much tougher proposition. Everything must be done in a hurry, with the utmost celerity.' Even when Russia exploded an A-bomb, he still pressed his argument, urging that the West must develop the hydrogen bomb. 'I do not think that, in the present temper of the world, an agreement to limit atomic warfare would do anything but harm, because each side would think that the other was evading it'. He then put the 'Better Dead than Red' argument in its most uncompromising form: 'The next war, if it comes, will be the greatest disaster that will have befallen the human race up to that moment. I can think of only one greater disaster: the extension of the Kremlin's power over the whole world.'
"Russell's advocacy of preventative war was widely known and much discussed in these years. At the International Congress of Philosophy at Amsterdam in 1948 he was furiously attacked for it by the Soviet delegate, Arnost Kolman, and replied with equal asperity: 'Go back and tell your masters in the Kremlin that they must send more competent servants to carry out their programme of propaganda and deceit.' As late as 27 September 1953 he wrote in the New York Times Magazine: 'Terrible as a new world war would be, I still for my part would prefer it to a world communist empire.'
"It must have been at about this time, however, that Russell's views began to change abruptly and fundamentally. The very next month, October 1953, he denied in the Nation that he had ever 'supported a preventative war against Russia'. The entire story, he wrote, was 'a com-munist invention'.' For some time, a friend recorded, whenever his post-war views were presented to him, he would insist: 'Never. That's just the invention of a communist journalist.' In March 1959, in an interview on BBC television with John Freeman, in one of his famous Face to Face programmes, Russell changed his tack. Disarmament experts in America had sent him chapter and verse of his earlier statements and he could no longer deny they had been made. So he said to Freeman, who questioned him about the preventative war line: 'It's entirely true, and I don't repent of it. It's entirely consistent with what I think now. "I He followed this with a letter to the BBC weekly, the Listener, saying: 'I had, in fact completely forgotten that I had ever thought a policy of threat involving possible war desirable. In 1958 Mr Alfred Kohlberg and Mr Walter W. Marseille brought to my notice things which I said in 1947, and I read these with amazement. I have no excuses to offer.' In the third volume of his autobiography (1968) he ventured a further explanation: '. . . at the time I gave this advice, I gave it so casually, without any real hope it would be followed, that I soon forgot I had given it.' He added: 'I had mentioned it in a private letter and again in a speech that I did not know to be the subject of dissection by the press' But as the investigation by Ronald Clark showed, Russell had argued the case for preventative war repeatedly, in numerous articles and speeches, and over a period of several years. It is hard to believe he could have forgotten so completely this tenacious and protracted stance."
"Paul Johnson (born Paul Bede Johnson on 2 November 1928 in Manchester, England) is a British Roman Catholic journalist" ... need I say more ? The only copy I can find of his New Commonwealth School speech (apparently the most damning of them) requires a paid account for The Economist. Want to buy one for me? 
You don't even need it.
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On November 03 2008 05:53 IzzyCraft wrote: I think i summed it up fine in my head.
JAPAN GOT NUKED SO THE REST OF IT WOULDN'T HAVE TO BURN the rest of it did not have to burn. do you not understand this, or are you trolling?
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On November 03 2008 05:57 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2008 05:53 IzzyCraft wrote: I think i summed it up fine in my head.
JAPAN GOT NUKED SO THE REST OF IT WOULDN'T HAVE TO BURN the rest of it did not have to burn. do you not understand this, or are you trolling? Many very smart people throughout history have given the same reason. Acting like someone having an opposing opinion to yours means they must be trolling is not a good way to debate.
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United States22883 Posts
On November 03 2008 05:54 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2008 05:52 Jibba wrote:On November 03 2008 05:51 Boonbag wrote:On November 03 2008 05:47 Jibba wrote:Hoho, looks like I tainted your idol. Russell kicks ass, but for a time he DID advocate preventative war. From Paul Johnson's book: "Russell may have hated war but there were times when he loved force. There was something aggressive, even bellicose, about his pacifism. Aftel the initial declaration of war, he wrote, 'For several weeks I felt that ff I should happen to meet Asquith or Grey I should be unable to refrain from murder.' In fact, some time later he did come across Asquith Russell emerged from swimming at Garsington Manor, stark naked, to find the Prime Minister sitting on the bank. But his anger had cooled by now and instead of murdering him, he embarked on a discussion of Plato, Asquith being a fine classical scholar. The great editor under whom I served, Kingsley Martin, who knew Russell well, often used to say that all the most pugnacious people he had come across were pacifists, and instanced Russell. Russell's pupil T. S. Eliot said the same: '[Russell] considered any excuse good enough for homicide.' It was not that Russell had any taste for fisticuffs. But he was in some ways an absolutist who believed in total solutions. He returned more than once to the notion of an era of perpetual peace being imposed on the world by an initial act of forceful statesmanship.
"The first time this idea occurred to him was towards the end of the First World War when he argued that America should use its superior power to insist on disarmament: 'The mixture of races and the comparative absence of a national tradition make America peculiarly suited to the fulfillment of this task." Then, when America secured a monopoly of nuclear weapons, in 1946-49, the suggestion returned with tremendous force. Since Russell later tried to deny, obfuscate or explain away his views during this period, it is important to set them out in some detail and in chronological order. As his biographer Ronald Clark has established, he advocated a preventative war against Russia not once but many times and over several years. Unlike most members of the left, Russell had never been taken in by the Soviet regime. He had always rejected Marxism completely. The book in which he described his 1920 visit to Russia, The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism (1920), was highly critical of Lenin and what he was doing. He regarded Stalin as a monster and accepted as true the fragmentary accounts of the forced collectivization, the great famine, the purges and the camps which reached the West. In all these ways he was quite untypical of the progressive intelligentsia. Nor did he share the complacency with which, in 1944-45, they accepted the extension of Soviet rule to most of Eastern Europe. To Russell this was a catastrophe for Western civilization. 'I hate the Soviet government too much for sanity,' he wrote on 15 January 1945. He believed that Soviet expansion would continue unless halted by the threat or use of force. In a letter dated 1 September 1945 he asserted: 'I think Stalin has inherited Hitler's ambition to world dictatorship.' Hence, when the first nuclear weapons were exploded by the US over Japan, he immediately resurrected his view that America should impose peace and disarmament on the world, using the new weapons to coerce a recalcitrant Russia. To him it was a heaven-sent opportunity which might never recur. He first set out his strategy in articles in the Labour journal Forward, published in Glasgow 18 August 1945, and the Manchester Guardian, 2 October. There was a further article on the same theme in Cavalcade, 20 October. This was entitled 'Humanity's Last Chance' and included the significant remark 'A casus belli would not be difficult to find.'
"Russell reiterated these or similar views over a period of five years. He set them out in Polemic, July-August 1946, in a talk to the Royal Empire Society on 3 December 1947 printed in the United Empire, January-February 1948 and New Commonwealth, January 1948, in a lecture at the Imperial Defence College, 9 December 1947, repeated on various occasions, at a student conference at Westminster School, November 1948, printed in the Nineteenth Century and After, January 1949, and again in an article in World Horizon in March 1950. He did not mince his words. The Royal Empire Society talk proposed an alliance - adumbrating NATO - which would then dictate terms to Russia: 'I am inclined to think that Russia would acquiesce; if not, provided this is done soon, the world might survive the resulting war and emerge with a single government such as the world needs.' 'If Russia overruns Western Europe,' he wrote to an American disarmament expert, Dr Walter Marseille, in May 1948, 'the destruction will be such as no subsequent reconquest can undo. Practically the whole educated population will be sent to labour camps in north-east Siberia or on the shores of the White Sea, where most will die of hardship and the survivors will be turned into animals. Atomic bombs, if used, will at first have to be dropped on Western Europe, since Russia will be out of reach. The Russians, even without atomic bombs, will be able to destroy all the big towns in England ...I have no doubt that America would win in the end, but unless Western Europe can be preserved from invasion, it will be lost to civilization for centuries. Even at such a price, I think war would be worth while. Communism must be wiped out, and world government must be estab-lished.' Russell constantly stressed the need for speed: 'Sooner or later, the Russians will have atom bombs, and when they have them it will be a much tougher proposition. Everything must be done in a hurry, with the utmost celerity.' Even when Russia exploded an A-bomb, he still pressed his argument, urging that the West must develop the hydrogen bomb. 'I do not think that, in the present temper of the world, an agreement to limit atomic warfare would do anything but harm, because each side would think that the other was evading it'. He then put the 'Better Dead than Red' argument in its most uncompromising form: 'The next war, if it comes, will be the greatest disaster that will have befallen the human race up to that moment. I can think of only one greater disaster: the extension of the Kremlin's power over the whole world.'
"Russell's advocacy of preventative war was widely known and much discussed in these years. At the International Congress of Philosophy at Amsterdam in 1948 he was furiously attacked for it by the Soviet delegate, Arnost Kolman, and replied with equal asperity: 'Go back and tell your masters in the Kremlin that they must send more competent servants to carry out their programme of propaganda and deceit.' As late as 27 September 1953 he wrote in the New York Times Magazine: 'Terrible as a new world war would be, I still for my part would prefer it to a world communist empire.'
"It must have been at about this time, however, that Russell's views began to change abruptly and fundamentally. The very next month, October 1953, he denied in the Nation that he had ever 'supported a preventative war against Russia'. The entire story, he wrote, was 'a com-munist invention'.' For some time, a friend recorded, whenever his post-war views were presented to him, he would insist: 'Never. That's just the invention of a communist journalist.' In March 1959, in an interview on BBC television with John Freeman, in one of his famous Face to Face programmes, Russell changed his tack. Disarmament experts in America had sent him chapter and verse of his earlier statements and he could no longer deny they had been made. So he said to Freeman, who questioned him about the preventative war line: 'It's entirely true, and I don't repent of it. It's entirely consistent with what I think now. "I He followed this with a letter to the BBC weekly, the Listener, saying: 'I had, in fact completely forgotten that I had ever thought a policy of threat involving possible war desirable. In 1958 Mr Alfred Kohlberg and Mr Walter W. Marseille brought to my notice things which I said in 1947, and I read these with amazement. I have no excuses to offer.' In the third volume of his autobiography (1968) he ventured a further explanation: '. . . at the time I gave this advice, I gave it so casually, without any real hope it would be followed, that I soon forgot I had given it.' He added: 'I had mentioned it in a private letter and again in a speech that I did not know to be the subject of dissection by the press' But as the investigation by Ronald Clark showed, Russell had argued the case for preventative war repeatedly, in numerous articles and speeches, and over a period of several years. It is hard to believe he could have forgotten so completely this tenacious and protracted stance."
"Paul Johnson (born Paul Bede Johnson on 2 November 1928 in Manchester, England) is a British Roman Catholic journalist" ... need I say more ? The only copy I can find of his New Commonwealth School speech (apparently the most damning of them) requires a paid account for The Economist. Want to buy one for me?  You don't even need it. So you'd rather just blindly accept what he said in 1953 over what he said in 1949, even though in his later biography he actually admits to having advocated those things?
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Following this thread, I'm a little confused. So let me try and flesh things out. Basically, here are the questions about the "justification" of the atomic bombings:
1) Did the bombings prevent any deaths? If so, were these prevented deaths significant enough to justify the death caused by the bombings? Can a prevented death justify a caused death? 2) Was Japan going to surrender if the Allies had done nothing? No mainland invasion, no bombings? 3) Many civilians died in the atomic bombings. Was this intentional, or unfortunate collateral damage as the result of an attack primarily intended to destroy military targets?
Those seem like the three main issues. Additionally, I get the impression that people here are using "justified" to mean different things. If something is justified, does that mean it is an acceptable course of action? Or does it mean that it is the ideal course of action? If the former, then someone could say "I don't like it, but I accept it," and the action would be justified. If the latter, that isn't possible.
Once again, I'm just trying to form an opinion on all of this by examining all the evidence I can get. I'm hoping this post will help me do that.
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On November 03 2008 05:59 Lemonwalrus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2008 05:57 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:On November 03 2008 05:53 IzzyCraft wrote: I think i summed it up fine in my head.
JAPAN GOT NUKED SO THE REST OF IT WOULDN'T HAVE TO BURN the rest of it did not have to burn. do you not understand this, or are you trolling? Many very smart people throughout history have given the same reason. Acting like someone having an opposing opinion to yours means they must be trolling is not a good way to debate.
i don't consider large birghtly colored capital letters to be a respectable form of debate
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On November 03 2008 06:02 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2008 05:59 Lemonwalrus wrote:On November 03 2008 05:57 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:On November 03 2008 05:53 IzzyCraft wrote: I think i summed it up fine in my head.
JAPAN GOT NUKED SO THE REST OF IT WOULDN'T HAVE TO BURN the rest of it did not have to burn. do you not understand this, or are you trolling? Many very smart people throughout history have given the same reason. Acting like someone having an opposing opinion to yours means they must be trolling is not a good way to debate. i don't consider large birghtly colored capital letters to be a respectable form of debate There is a distinct difference between emphasizing your own point and attacking somebody personally instead of making a counter-point.
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Three things which seem not to be clear:
1- Us didn't have to nuke Japan, even less to nuke two cities. They did so because strategically, and because of Soviet progresses in Mandchouria, they needed the war to finish asap. They nuked for strategic reasons, not to save lives.
2- The fact that Japan did this or that doesn't change anything. If you torture and murder a serial killer, you are still as guilty as if it was a little girl.
3- The people who were killed were innocent civilians. Kids, women, civilians. Civilians are not responsible for the mischief of their country. People are people, so comparing Nagasaki with the atrocity of Japanese army is just retard.
That remains me all theses idiots who say that it's fair Holocaust happened because palestinians are suffering. Two fucking different problems, and fucking different people.
Have to learn the difference between masses and individuals, somehow.
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Whatever. Just read mensrea's post.
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On November 03 2008 06:04 Lemonwalrus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2008 06:02 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:On November 03 2008 05:59 Lemonwalrus wrote:On November 03 2008 05:57 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:On November 03 2008 05:53 IzzyCraft wrote: I think i summed it up fine in my head.
JAPAN GOT NUKED SO THE REST OF IT WOULDN'T HAVE TO BURN the rest of it did not have to burn. do you not understand this, or are you trolling? Many very smart people throughout history have given the same reason. Acting like someone having an opposing opinion to yours means they must be trolling is not a good way to debate. i don't consider large birghtly colored capital letters to be a respectable form of debate There is a distinct difference between emphasizing your own point and attacking somebody personally instead of making a counter-point.
i don't think asking if he's trolling is a personal attack, especially given the nature of the post i quoted. i'll just say i can hardly believe the bombings to be justified when i do not consider war itself a justifiable act. i'm staying out of this thread from now on.
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United States22883 Posts
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I still fail to see that mythical sentence of him saying "we must land an atomic bomb on soviet union territory".
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
I have no interest in references to Paul Johnson. I was referring to a citation from Russell.
Russell made the observation on several occasions that if a war occurred relatively quickly after WWII it would result in a swift and decisive victory for the United States whereas if a war occurred later, after the USSR had acquired the bomb, it could well bring about unprecedented worldwide catastrophe. This by itself certainly does not support a "preventive war".
The Atomic Bomb and the Prevention of War - Bertrand Russell 1946
"In dealing with the Soviet Government, what is most needed is definiteness. The American and British governments should state what issues they consider vital, and on other issues they should allow Russia a free hand. Within this framework they should be as conciliatory as possible. This should make it clear that genuine international cooperation is what they most desire. But although peace should be their goal, they should not let it appear that they are for peace at any price. At a certain stage, when their plan for an international government are ripe, they should offer them to the world, and enlist the greatest possible amount of support; I think they should offer them through the medium of the United Nations. If Russia acquiesced willingly, all would be well. If not, it would be necessary to bring pressure to bear, even to the extent of risking war, for in that case it is pretty certain that Russia would agree. If Russia does not agree to join in forming an international government, there will be war sooner or later; it is therefore wise to use any degree of pressure that may be necessary. But pressure should not be applied until every possible conciliatory approach has been tried and has failed. I have little doubt that such a policy, vigorously pursued, would in the end secure Russian acquiescence."
Edit: I should also point out that, unless I am missing something obvious, and despite all his many "interpretations" of Russell's arguments, the extract from Paul Johnson quoted earlier does not present one single Russell quote that could be interpreted as support for a nuclear attack on the USSR.
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United States22883 Posts
Look, there have been several academic pieces written on it from scholars like Marc Trachtenberg and so on. I'm not going to pay money to obtain a rare transcript of the key speeches he made on the subject, so take what I posted because there's not much else you can find for free. Even if you don't trust Johnson, I'd certainly trust Trachtenberg.
The 1946 book doesn't mean much, because it was the failure of the Baruch Plan that really set Russell off.
EDIT: Russell is advocated a preventive attack utilizing our nuclear monopoly. There was no other option for preventive attack at the time. The US would have gotten hammered in a conventional war with the USSR, even in their rebuilding state, and the US military knew it and every intellectual like Russell knew it. Nuclear weapons were the only course for a preventive war.
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Not to mention Russel wasn't exactly Roman Catholic's fav aquaintance =[
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On November 03 2008 06:23 Jibba wrote: Look, there have been several academic pieces written on it from scholars like Marc Trachtenberg and so on. I'm not going to pay money to obtain a rare transcript of the key speeches he made on the subject, so take what I posted because there's not much else you can find for free. Even if you don't trust Johnson, I'd certainly trust Trachtenberg.
The 1946 book doesn't mean much, because it was the failure of the Baruch Plan that really set Russell off.
Not on Russel stating NUKES HAD TO LAND on Soviet Union.
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United States22883 Posts
On November 03 2008 06:25 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2008 06:23 Jibba wrote: Look, there have been several academic pieces written on it from scholars like Marc Trachtenberg and so on. I'm not going to pay money to obtain a rare transcript of the key speeches he made on the subject, so take what I posted because there's not much else you can find for free. Even if you don't trust Johnson, I'd certainly trust Trachtenberg.
The 1946 book doesn't mean much, because it was the failure of the Baruch Plan that really set Russell off. Not on Russel stating NUKES HAD TO LAND on Soviet Union. Read the entirety of NSC68 and tell me if anyone was prepared to fight the Soviet Union in a conventional war. You can keep playing dumb about him not explicitly saying "lets nuke those motherfuckers" but it's quite clear to anyone that has read the opinions at the time that preventative war meant only one thing. Bombs -> Soviet research/military targets, and regular bombs didn't cut it.
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You have to remember that at the time of the bombing, the atomic bomb was thought to just be another alternative to other bombing techniques such as those used in the equally horrifying firebombing of Tokyo and bombing of Dresden.
I suggest you look those up, as the death toll for both of those was just as staggering. The atomic bomb provided an advantage in that you did not need hundreds of bombers during the mission - just one. And one bomber didn't SEEM to be that much of a threat to the enemy - saving pilot lives and accomplishing the same task.
The military leaders in Japan made several statements saying that they were going to fight until the bitter end to defend the honor of Japan. Whether they would have done this or not is up for debate, but it is certain that they had no reservations about doing extreme things (see Rape of Nanking).
If I were a military leader, and I saw a way to end the war immediately, minimizing casualties on both sides (regarding the estimated casualties of a land invasion) using new technology, I know I would do it. You have to remember that no one could have ever thought that the bomb would implicate itself in things such as the Cold War and the technological ramp up to the even more destructive Hydrogen bomb. To Truman, the Japanese looked like they were never going to surrender without a land invasion.
The second bombing at Nagasaki isn't as justified, although it is worthwhile noting that the Japanese military leaders still rejected wholeheartedly proposals for surrender after the bombing, even after having sent representatives to survey the damage.
So my conclusion is that at the time in history, it was very justified. However, if one were to know the consequences of the bombing and how fractured the Japanese military and leadership was at that time, I'm sure I would have made a different decision.
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