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Elite]v[arine
Profile Joined October 2007
United States264 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 21:35:56
August 18 2008 21:29 GMT
#1
try and figure out which statments are really true and which are really false. enjoy...
each true keeps the statement the same, each false reverses it. start with statement 1.

statement 1) 2 and 3 are false.
statement 2) 1 is false, 3 is true.
statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true.
statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false.
statement 5) 1 is true, 3 is true.

ill give you guys a while to figure it out before posting the answer.

edit: hint, tally up all the true/false for each statement on a piece of paper as you go.
AKAs: Pyro]v[aniac ,
brjdrb
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States577 Posts
August 18 2008 21:32 GMT
#2
well, technically it depends on their starting values
Stork's biggest fan
Ra.Xor.2
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States1784 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 21:33:50
August 18 2008 21:33 GMT
#3
+ Show Spoiler +
1-4 are false, 5 is true.

Am i right?
#1 Flash Fan
Elite]v[arine
Profile Joined October 2007
United States264 Posts
August 18 2008 21:35 GMT
#4
On August 19 2008 06:33 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
1-4 are false, 5 is true.

Am i right?

ill let you sweat on it till more ppl try.
AKAs: Pyro]v[aniac ,
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 21:41:08
August 18 2008 21:35 GMT
#5
Okay let's give it a shot... Let me assume they're all true to begin with...
1t 2t 3t 4t 5t

Execute statement 1:
1t 2f 3f 4t 5t
Exe 2:
1t 2f 3f 4t 5t
Exe 3:
1t 2f 3f 4t 5f
Exe 4:
1t 2t 3f 4t 5t
Exe 5:
1t 2t 3t 4t 5t

But oh wait I think I did it the bad way hmm


Hmm after some more thoughts and a method I made up it seems that it has no solution.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Elite]v[arine
Profile Joined October 2007
United States264 Posts
August 18 2008 21:36 GMT
#6
On August 19 2008 06:35 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Okay let's give it a shot... Let me assume they're all true to begin with...
1t 2t 3t 4t 5t

Execute statement 1:
1t 2f 3f 4t 5t
Exe 2:
1t 2f 3f 4t 5t
Exe 3:
1t 2f 3f 4t 5f
Exe 4:
1t 2t 3f 4t 5t
Exe 5:
1t 2t 3t 4t 5t

But oh wait I think I did it the bad way hmm

when reaching a new statement you have to recheck the others/reverse them/leave them alone.
AKAs: Pyro]v[aniac ,
brjdrb
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States577 Posts
August 18 2008 21:39 GMT
#7
+ Show Spoiler +
assuming they start as true, it's 1,2 and 4 false, 3 and 5 true.
assuming they start as false, it's the opposite

my guess at least
Stork's biggest fan
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 21:41:57
August 18 2008 21:41 GMT
#8
On August 19 2008 06:36 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 06:35 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Okay let's give it a shot... Let me assume they're all true to begin with...
1t 2t 3t 4t 5t

Execute statement 1:
1t 2f 3f 4t 5t
Exe 2:
1t 2f 3f 4t 5t
Exe 3:
1t 2f 3f 4t 5f
Exe 4:
1t 2t 3f 4t 5t
Exe 5:
1t 2t 3t 4t 5t

But oh wait I think I did it the bad way hmm

when reaching a new statement you have to recheck the others/reverse them/leave them alone.

Like I said that doesn't work(As in I've alredy know what ur gonna say so no worries)
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
August 18 2008 21:45 GMT
#9
+ Show Spoiler +
Assuming 1-5 are all 1t-5t, 1-4 will be false and 5 is true.
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 21:48:07
August 18 2008 21:46 GMT
#10
+ Show Spoiler +

I think no solution
To put it this way, let's consider 1's statement: "2,3 are false"

Assume 1t, then 2f 3f.
Assume 1f, then 2t 3t.

As we can see, no matter 1's true/falseness, 1 and 3 will always be opposite. Either 1t 3f, or 1f 3t.

Now let's consider 5's statement: "1, 3 are true"

Assume 5t, then 1t 3t
Assume 5f, then 1f 3f

As we can see, no matter 5's true/falseness, 1 and 3 will always be the same, Either 1t 3t, or 1f 3f.

Thus we reach a contradiction >_< Thus no solution I guess.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Doctorasul
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Romania1145 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 22:03:30
August 18 2008 21:47 GMT
#11
+ Show Spoiler +
if 1 is true, then 2 and 3 are false (as stated) => 1 is true and 3 is false (so far so good) and 4 is true, 5 is false (the reverse of 3) => 2 is true, 3 is false and 1 is false and 3 is true - contradiction with the initial presupposition

if 1 is false, then 2 and 3 are true => 1 is false, 3 is true and 4 is false, 5 is true => 2 is false, 3 is true (the reverse of 4) and 1 is true - contradicting the initial supposition

So 1 can't be true or false, therefore the exercise has no solution?
"I believe in Spinoza's god who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings." - Albert Einstein
Pholon
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Netherlands6142 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 21:56:05
August 18 2008 21:52 GMT
#12
+ Show Spoiler +
1: true
2: false
3: false
4: false
5: false


Edit: sorry added spoiler

I think I can retrace my steps and explain it. I know it's a solution, dunno if it's the only solution.

And a little hint I think at least one person here missed:
+ Show Spoiler +
When you set, f.e., (1) to FALSE you get 3 optional REAL statusses:
-(2) FALSE, (3) TRUE
-(2) TRUE, (3) FALSE
-(2) TRUE, (3) TRUE
Moderator@TLPholon // "I need a third hand to facepalm right now"
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
August 18 2008 21:57 GMT
#13
Does "false" mean "completely false"?
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Tadzio
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
3340 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 22:02:13
August 18 2008 21:58 GMT
#14
+ Show Spoiler +
Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but it looks like the only one that never changes is statement 5 (by the time you read statement 3 it always says statement 5 is true, and it's the only statement that can change 5), but 5 can't be true because 1 says statement 2&3 are true/false (depending on whether it's been reversed) and statement 2 never agrees that both statement 1 and statement 3 are true.... just looking at it, I'd say that statements 2 or 3 can be true, but not both of them... and I'm not sure how to determine which if either of them are true. Statements 1, 4 and 5 look to be definitely false.
Elite]v[arine
Profile Joined October 2007
United States264 Posts
August 18 2008 22:01 GMT
#15
i actually remembered this from a long long time ago but cannot remember the answer.
i actually do not KNOW the answer but assume its either one of the following...

answer 1 with my "work" wrong or right.
+ Show Spoiler +
statement 1) 2 and 3 are false.

1=
2=f
3=f
4=
5=

statement 2) 1 is false, 3 is true.

1=f
2=f
3=ft
4=
5=

statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true.

1=
2=f
3=f
4=ftf
5=t

statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false.

1=
2=ft
3=ff
4=ftf
5=t

statement 5) 1 is true, 3 is true.

1=t
2=ft
3=fft
4=ftf
5=t

2 false cancel out, no matter how many true's, a leftover false will make the statment false.
end result:

1=t
2=f
3=t
4=t
5=t


answer 2 with my "work" wrong or right
+ Show Spoiler +
statement 1) 2 and 3 are false.
statement 2) 1 is false, 3 is true.
statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true.
statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false.
statement 5) 1 is true, 3 is true.

1) says 2 and 3 are false.
2) can no longer say 1 is false and 3 is true. it now says 1 is true and 3 is false
3) can no longer say 4 is false and 5 is true. it now says 4 is true and 5 is false.
4) says 2 is true, and 3 is false.
5) can no longer say 1 is true, 3 is true. now says 1 is false, 3 is true.

remember: one statement saying another statement is true, therefore keeps the statement the same.

the curren't status of the statements are:

1=tf
2=ft
3=ffft
4=t
5=f

final answer:

1=f
2=f
3=f
4=t
5=f
AKAs: Pyro]v[aniac ,
Elite]v[arine
Profile Joined October 2007
United States264 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 22:02:21
August 18 2008 22:02 GMT
#16
On August 19 2008 06:57 Mindcrime wrote:
Does "false" mean "completely false"?

false means a reversal of the statement. and "possible" reversal of other staments.
i forgot to mention you can only run the statements once down through (or maybe once down through and then read and tallied, idk)
AKAs: Pyro]v[aniac ,
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
August 18 2008 22:03 GMT
#17
On August 19 2008 06:57 Mindcrime wrote:
Does "false" mean "completely false"?

Eh, can there be "incompletely false"? If a statement is false then it is false.

Maybe lemme try explain more it'll be better... Let's say...
A: Apples are red and Apples are orange.
^ That is false
B: Apples are red or Apples are orange
^ That is true
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Doctorasul
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Romania1145 Posts
August 18 2008 22:04 GMT
#18
Pholon, he specifically said that "each true keeps the statement the same, each false reverses it", so you don't get 3 options.
"I believe in Spinoza's god who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings." - Albert Einstein
Elite]v[arine
Profile Joined October 2007
United States264 Posts
August 18 2008 22:07 GMT
#19
a really smart friend of mine gave me this problem a long time ago before he moved. i wish i could remember the answer.
AKAs: Pyro]v[aniac ,
Leath
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
Canada1724 Posts
August 18 2008 22:08 GMT
#20
Lets see if I understood this correctly

+ Show Spoiler +

statement 1) 2 and 3 are false.
statement 2) 1 is false, 3 is true.
statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true.
statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false.
statement 5) 1 is true, 3 is true.
Starting at 1 = T

T 1) 2 false, 3 false
F 2) 1 true, 3 false
F 3) 4 true, 5 false
T 4) 2 false, 3 true

go back to 3)

T 3) 4 false, 5 true
F 4) 2 true, 3 false

go back to 2)

T 2) 1 false, 3 true

go back to 1)

F 1) 2 true 3 true
T 2) 1 false, 3 true
T 3) 4 false, 5 true
F 4) 2 true, 3 false

Loop???


Or are we just supposed to change the values once?
Or are we supposed to find a pattern where all the statements are correct in such a way that the false statements are simply negating the truth?
http://www.kongregate.com/?referrer=Sagess
Tadzio
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
3340 Posts
August 18 2008 22:11 GMT
#21
so what're the complete rules to the problem again?
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 23:17:07
August 18 2008 22:13 GMT
#22
Doing it in my head, it seemed to me that + Show Spoiler +
none are true:
I) If 1 is true:
1 -2 and 3 are false
2 -since 3 is false, 4 is true
3 -which means that 2 is true
4 -which contradicts line 1

II) If 2 is true:
1 -3 is true
2 -which means that 4 is false
3 -which means that 2 is false
4 -which contradicts the starting premise

III) If 3 is true:
1 -5 is true
2 -which means that 1 is true
3 -which has already been shown to generate a contradiction

IV) If 4 is true:
1 -2 is true
2 -which has already been shown to generate a contradiction

V) If 5 is true:
1 -1 is true
2 -which has already been shown to generate a contradiction

This was following the OP that false means the complete reverse is true, and not simply that the statement is not fully true (but may be true in part).

Edit: I realized afterward that I wasn't thorough enough: I checked each statement for trueness, but not for falseness (by the definition used, false is not the same as not-true). However, it's easy to remedy that: + Show Spoiler +
1-4 each say that various other statements are false. If any of 1-4 are false (i.e. its reverse is true), that will make a different statement true. We already showed that none of the statements can be true; therefore none of statements 1-4 can be false. If 5 is false, then 1 & 3 are false, but we just said that 1-4 cannot be false.

In short, all 5 statements are neither true nor false.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Elite]v[arine
Profile Joined October 2007
United States264 Posts
August 18 2008 22:18 GMT
#23
On August 19 2008 07:08 Leath wrote:
Lets see if I understood this correctly

+ Show Spoiler +

statement 1) 2 and 3 are false.
statement 2) 1 is false, 3 is true.
statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true.
statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false.
statement 5) 1 is true, 3 is true.
Starting at 1 = T

T 1) 2 false, 3 false
F 2) 1 true, 3 false
F 3) 4 true, 5 false
T 4) 2 false, 3 true

go back to 3)

T 3) 4 false, 5 true
F 4) 2 true, 3 false

go back to 2)

T 2) 1 false, 3 true

go back to 1)

F 1) 2 true 3 true
T 2) 1 false, 3 true
T 3) 4 false, 5 true
F 4) 2 true, 3 false

Loop???


Or are we just supposed to change the values once?
Or are we supposed to find a pattern where all the statements are correct in such a way that the false statements are simply negating the truth?


now that you put it like that you made me remmember that my friend was really into computers >_>


On August 19 2008 07:13 qrs wrote:
Doing it in my head, it seemed to me that + Show Spoiler +
none are true:
I) If 1 is true:
1 -2 and 3 are false
2 -since 3 is false, 4 is true
3 -which means that 2 is true
4 -which contradicts line 1

II) If 2 is true:
1 -3 is true
2 -which means that 4 is false
3 -which means that 2 is false
4 -which contradicts the starting premise

III) If 3 is true:
1 -5 is true
2 -which means that 1 is true
3 -which has already been shown to generate a contradiction

IV) If 4 is true:
1 -2 is true
2 -which has already been shown to generate a contradiction

V) If 5 is true:
1 -1 is true
2 -which has already been shown to generate a contradiction

This was following the OP that false means the complete reverse is true, and not simply that the statement is not fully true (but may be true in part).


my brain is having a meltdown.... ill come back and read everything later...
AKAs: Pyro]v[aniac ,
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
August 18 2008 22:19 GMT
#24
Dude just read my post :<
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
fig_newbie
Profile Joined March 2006
749 Posts
August 18 2008 22:20 GMT
#25
I think I got it, per your instructions.
+ Show Spoiler +
true
false
true
false
true


I'm considering there to be three values: false, neutral, true, with all statements starting off as "neutral" with statement 1 and changing it with each new instruction.
k?
Pholon
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Netherlands6142 Posts
August 18 2008 22:24 GMT
#26
On August 19 2008 07:04 Doctorasul wrote:
Pholon, he specifically said that "each true keeps the statement the same, each false reverses it", so you don't get 3 options.


Yeah read that now, in which case I think I'm not finding a solution the way I'm doing it, but Ill give it some more though.
Moderator@TLPholon // "I need a third hand to facepalm right now"
Makhno
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Sweden585 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 22:33:56
August 18 2008 22:30 GMT
#27
+ Show Spoiler +

1:True
2:False
3:True
4:False
5:True


It's simple, if you start with 1 and just go down the line this is the answer you get using simple logics.

Okay, I gave it some more thougt and in my mind it depends on what you assume 1 to be. If you assume it to be true then my answer is correct, if false then reversed.
"If I think, everything is lost"
fig_newbie
Profile Joined March 2006
749 Posts
August 18 2008 22:33 GMT
#28
On August 19 2008 07:30 Makhno wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

1:True
2:False
3:True
4:False
5:True


It's simple, if you start with 1 and just go down the line this is the answer you get using simple logics.


i had the same response but im not so sure now, seeing as statements 1 and 5 contradict each other with regards to 3.
k?
Pholon
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Netherlands6142 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 22:36:45
August 18 2008 22:35 GMT
#29
I'm thinking there's not solution, using the full reverse type of fail.

Reason+ Show Spoiler +

Consider S3:
1 ) If 3 is true, it says that 5 is true, which says that 1 is true which says that 3 is [i]false (contradiction in italics)

2 ) If [b]3 is false it means that (through full reversal) 4 is true which says that 2 is true which then says that [b]3
is true (contradiction in italics)

So you could never find a value for 3, so no solution



...right?
Moderator@TLPholon // "I need a third hand to facepalm right now"
fig_newbie
Profile Joined March 2006
749 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 22:37:42
August 18 2008 22:35 GMT
#30
wait...no, wtf

its all false. blah, how frustrating
k?
Pholon
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Netherlands6142 Posts
August 18 2008 22:37 GMT
#31
Statement 6: Statement 6 is false

o_O
Moderator@TLPholon // "I need a third hand to facepalm right now"
Makhno
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Sweden585 Posts
August 18 2008 22:47 GMT
#32
On August 19 2008 07:33 fig_newbie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 07:30 Makhno wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

1:True
2:False
3:True
4:False
5:True


It's simple, if you start with 1 and just go down the line this is the answer you get using simple logics.


i had the same response but im not so sure now, seeing as statements 1 and 5 contradict each other with regards to 3.


Damn, just realized I misread 1... Okay, i'm not seeing a reasonable answer here.
"If I think, everything is lost"
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6179 Posts
August 18 2008 22:48 GMT
#33
i just came up with a solution but I'm not gonna spoil it for you guys
RaGe
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Belgium9947 Posts
August 18 2008 22:49 GMT
#34
this is really easy for anyone who got a logics course
Moderatorsometimes I get intimidated by the size of my right testicle
Igakusei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States610 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 22:57:24
August 18 2008 22:54 GMT
#35
Okay. I'll start with the ones that cannot be true:

2 and 3 cannot be true. If they were true, then three would also be true. Three says that five is true, which says that three is false. Since they can't agree, they are both out.

4 cannot be true because it says that 2 is true.

1 says that 2 and 3 are false, 5 says that 1 is true and 3 is false. Those two are in agreement, and since 2 and 3 are certifiably false, we know that they are true as well.

1,5 True
2-4 False

/thread
Igakusei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States610 Posts
August 18 2008 22:55 GMT
#36
On August 19 2008 07:49 RaGe wrote:
this is really easy for anyone who got a logics course


You need to take a course to do elementary logic?
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 23:23:25
August 18 2008 23:14 GMT
#37
edit: decided not to be snarky. Neverborn, your mistake is in assuming that not-true is the same as false here.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
August 18 2008 23:21 GMT
#38
On August 19 2008 07:49 RaGe wrote:
this is really easy for anyone who got a logics course

Meh posts like this is as good as nothing because it makes it sound like you know wtf is going on yet you offer no insights to it, and sounding off bragging some empty claims.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Murlox
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France1699 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 23:36:03
August 18 2008 23:30 GMT
#39
On August 19 2008 08:21 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 07:49 RaGe wrote:
this is really easy for anyone who got a logics course

Meh posts like this is as good as nothing because it makes it sound like you know wtf is going on yet you offer no insights to it, and sounding off bragging some empty claims.


He obviously barely read it and threw that, to brag

On topic :

statement 1) 2 and 3 are false.
statement 2) 1 is false, 3 is true.
statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true.
statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false.
statement 5) 1 is true, 3 is true.


Problem...

if statement 3 is true, then statement 4 is false, then statement 2 is false, then statement 3 is false. ERROR.

ok then,

statement 3 must be false.
so statement 5 must be false.
so statement 1 must be fasle (but then 3 must be true. ERROR)

ERROR ERROR ERROR ERROR

Resistance ain't futile
Murlox
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France1699 Posts
August 18 2008 23:39 GMT
#40
On August 19 2008 08:14 qrs wrote:
edit: decided not to be snarky. Neverborn, your mistake is in assuming that not-true is the same as false here.


well...

On August 19 2008 06:29 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:
...
each true keeps the statement the same, each false reverses it.
...

Resistance ain't futile
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
August 18 2008 23:47 GMT
#41
On August 19 2008 07:54 Neverborn wrote:
Okay. I'll start with the ones that cannot be true:

2 and 3 cannot be true. If they were true, then three would also be true. Three says that five is true, which says that three is false. Since they can't agree, they are both out.

4 cannot be true because it says that 2 is true.

1 says that 2 and 3 are false, 5 says that 1 is true and 3 is false. Those two are in agreement, and since 2 and 3 are certifiably false, we know that they are true as well.

1,5 True
2-4 False

/thread


Nope, 5 says 3 is true.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21549 Posts
August 18 2008 23:52 GMT
#42
On August 19 2008 08:14 qrs wrote:
edit: decided not to be snarky. Neverborn, your mistake is in assuming that not-true is the same as false here.

No, his mistake was misreading #5. :p
Administrator
Alventenie
Profile Joined July 2007
United States2147 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-18 23:57:29
August 18 2008 23:56 GMT
#43
eh, maybe i was wrong o.O, i could of swore it said 1 was true and 3 was false x.x
ydg
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States690 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 00:09:33
August 19 2008 00:06 GMT
#44
Has this been solved yet?

+ Show Spoiler +


statement 1) 2 and 3 are false.
statement 2) 1 is false, 3 is true.
statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true.
statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false.
statement 5) 1 is true, 3 is true.

Assume 1 is true:
2 is false -> 1 is true, 3 is false
3 is false -> 4 is true, 5 is false
4 is true -> 2 is true
RAA: 1 is false
When 1 is false, 5 is false.
When 5 is false, 3 is false.
Therefore making 4 and 2 true.
However, 2 says that 3 is true

So there is no answer.
Unless you take the path that "not false" doesn't mean "true." Then you only look at the "true" values:

Assume 2 is true:
3 is true
5 is true
1 is true, which contradicts 2 being true

Assume 3 is true:
5 is true
1 is true
can work.

Assume 4 is true:
2 is true
3 is true
5 is true
1 is true, contradicting 2 being true

Assume 5 is true:
1 is true
3 is true
5 is true

Assume 1 is true:
nothing.

Therefore, 1, 3, 5.
The only courage that matters is the kind that gets you from one moment to the next.
Jin
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Canada439 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 00:11:33
August 19 2008 00:07 GMT
#45
5 is false because there is a conflict of logic if it's not. Following that:

My logic:
5F -> 1F, 3F
3F -> 4T, 5F
4T -> 2T, 3F
2T -> 1F, 3T
1F -> 2T, 3F

which works as far as I know since statement one states that 2 and 3 are false. The 'and' is misleading since statement 1 is false if statement 2 _or_ 3 is true. No assumptions required.
^-^v
vAltyR
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States581 Posts
August 19 2008 00:09 GMT
#46
+ Show Spoiler +
Assume statement 1 is true, and the rest are false.
Statement 1 is valid because we're assuming both 2 and 3 are false.
Statement 2 is false because 1 is true, and says 2 is false
Statement 3 is false because 1 is true, and says 3 is false.
Statement 4 is false because it says 2 is true, but 2 is actually false.
Statement 5 is false because it says 3 is true, but 3 is actually false.


Yeah, it's all based on assumptions, but based on that assumption, everything checks out.
내 호버크라프트는 장어로 가득 차 있어요
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 01:04:46
August 19 2008 00:15 GMT
#47
was bored, came back to check
LOL at my answer
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
August 19 2008 00:17 GMT
#48
On August 19 2008 09:07 Jin wrote:
5 is false because there is a conflict of logic if it's not. Following that:

My logic:
5F -> 1F, 3F
3F -> 4T, 5F
4T -> 2T, 3F
2T -> 1F, 3T
1F -> 2T, 3F

which works as far as I know since statement one states that 2 and 3 are false. The 'and' is misleading since statement 1 is false if statement 2 _or_ 3 is true. No assumptions required.


If 2 is true then 3 is true then 5 is true. :|
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Jin
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Canada439 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 00:22:17
August 19 2008 00:21 GMT
#49
On August 19 2008 09:17 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 09:07 Jin wrote:
5 is false because there is a conflict of logic if it's not. Following that:

My logic:
5F -> 1F, 3F
3F -> 4T, 5F
4T -> 2T, 3F
2T -> 1F, 3T
1F -> 2T, 3F

which works as far as I know since statement one states that 2 and 3 are false. The 'and' is misleading since statement 1 is false if statement 2 _or_ 3 is true. No assumptions required.


If 2 is true then 3 is true then 5 is true. :|


Oops you are right

K, starting with 5T then:


5T -> 1T, 3T
3T -> 4F, 5T
4F -> 2F, 3T
2F -> 1T, 3F
which is another conflict
I;m confused
^-^v
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 00:23:33
August 19 2008 00:22 GMT
#50
You fail again.

EDIT: I posted before your edit~
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Jin
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Canada439 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 00:33:30
August 19 2008 00:24 GMT
#51
all F

edit: unless the false here does not imply logical not, which I'm assuming it does
^-^v
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
August 19 2008 00:34 GMT
#52
On August 19 2008 08:39 Yank31 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 08:14 qrs wrote:
edit: decided not to be snarky. Neverborn, your mistake is in assuming that not-true is the same as false here.


well...

Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 06:29 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:
...
each true keeps the statement the same, each false reverses it.
...


Right. If a multiple-part statement is not true, it doesn't follow that its reverse is necessarily true.
But anyway
On August 19 2008 08:52 SonuvBob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 08:14 qrs wrote:
edit: decided not to be snarky. Neverborn, your mistake is in assuming that not-true is the same as false here.

No, his mistake was misreading #5. :p
my bad: didn't reread the OP. Even if neverborn had been right about #5, his answer would still be wrong, for the reason I mentioned.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
August 19 2008 00:37 GMT
#53
one answer:

+ Show Spoiler +


Proof that 5 is false by contradiction:
1) Assume 5 is true. This implies that 1 is true and 3 is true.
2) Since 1 is true, both 2 and 3 are false. But this is a contradiction; 5 said 3 is true. Thus, 5 must be false.

Now we know 5 is false. Let's find any statements that say 5 is true. Statement 3 says 5 is true. Thus, statement 3 must be false.

Now let's find statements which say 3 is true. Both 2 and 5 say 3 is true; thus, both 2 and 5 must be false (we already knew 5 was false).

Finally, we find any statements that say 2 is true. Statement 4 says 2 is true, thus 4 must be false.

So far, we have proved that 2,3,4, and 5 are all false. Let's look at statement 1. Statement 1 says both statements 2 and 3 are false. Hence, statement 1 must be true.

Hence, we have figured out the values of all five statements:

1 is true, and 2,3,4,5 are all false.

skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
August 19 2008 00:52 GMT
#54
Oh god sounds like a UMAT question ><
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
August 19 2008 01:02 GMT
#55
On August 19 2008 09:37 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
one answer:

+ Show Spoiler +


Proof that 5 is false by contradiction:
1) Assume 5 is true. This implies that 1 is true and 3 is true.
2) Since 1 is true, both 2 and 3 are false. But this is a contradiction; 5 said 3 is true. Thus, 5 must be false.

Now we know 5 is false. Let's find any statements that say 5 is true. Statement 3 says 5 is true. Thus, statement 3 must be false.

Now let's find statements which say 3 is true. Both 2 and 5 say 3 is true; thus, both 2 and 5 must be false (we already knew 5 was false).

Finally, we find any statements that say 2 is true. Statement 4 says 2 is true, thus 4 must be false.

So far, we have proved that 2,3,4, and 5 are all false. Let's look at statement 1. Statement 1 says both statements 2 and 3 are false. Hence, statement 1 must be true.

Hence, we have figured out the values of all five statements:

1 is true, and 2,3,4,5 are all false.



If 1 is true then 3 is false then 5 is false then 1 is false.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Eskii
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Canada544 Posts
August 19 2008 01:04 GMT
#56
1 is right
XCetron
Profile Joined November 2006
5226 Posts
August 19 2008 01:27 GMT
#57
+ Show Spoiler +

Order of Operation:

statement 1) 2 and 3 are false. 1T2F3F4T5T
statement 2) 1 is false, 3 is true. 1T2F3F4T5T (Works good so far)
statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true. 1T2F3F4T5F (Good)
statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false. 1T2T3F4T5F (Everythings Fine)
statement 5) 1 is true, 3 is true. 1F2T3F4T5F (A bit of switching)
1F2T3T4T5F (Starting from beginning again)
1F2T3T4T5F (After 2)
1F2T3T4F5T (After 3)


I quit, dinner time

sYz-Adrenaline
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States1850 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 02:11:08
August 19 2008 01:58 GMT
#58
+ Show Spoiler +


statement 1) 2 and 3 are false.
statement 2) 1 is false, 3 is true.
statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true.
statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false.
statement 5) 1 is true, 3 is true.

statement 1) = OK
statement 2) = OK
statement 3) = OK
statement 4) = 3 reverses to <b>true</b>! 2 stays the same <b>false</b>
statement 5) = 3 stays the same and so does 1.

1 F
2 F
3 T
4 F
5 T



Ez
Check PLz ?
Can you feel the rush?
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 02:12:17
August 19 2008 02:05 GMT
#59
On August 19 2008 10:02 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 09:37 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
one answer:

+ Show Spoiler +


Proof that 5 is false by contradiction:
1) Assume 5 is true. This implies that 1 is true and 3 is true.
2) Since 1 is true, both 2 and 3 are false. But this is a contradiction; 5 said 3 is true. Thus, 5 must be false.

Now we know 5 is false. Let's find any statements that say 5 is true. Statement 3 says 5 is true. Thus, statement 3 must be false.

Now let's find statements which say 3 is true. Both 2 and 5 say 3 is true; thus, both 2 and 5 must be false (we already knew 5 was false).

Finally, we find any statements that say 2 is true. Statement 4 says 2 is true, thus 4 must be false.

So far, we have proved that 2,3,4, and 5 are all false. Let's look at statement 1. Statement 1 says both statements 2 and 3 are false. Hence, statement 1 must be true.

Hence, we have figured out the values of all five statements:

1 is true, and 2,3,4,5 are all false.



If 1 is true then 3 is false then 5 is false then 1 is false.


Negative. If 1 is true, then 3 is false, I agree. But, if 3 is false, then it's the opposite of "4 is false and 5 is true", which is equivalent to: "4 is true AND 5 is true, OR 4 is true AND 5 is false, OR 4 is false AND 5 is false."

Edit: for clarity, I'm showing you the first untrue statement you made which means your conclusion isn't valid.
IzzyCraft
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4487 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 02:25:08
August 19 2008 02:23 GMT
#60
:edit:mis understood hte perms on how this is done. i'll do it later my first conclusion was all are false because the statement conflict with their own true or false but that is taking statement 5 as a truth.
I have ass for brains so,
even when I shit I'm droping knowledge.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
August 19 2008 02:28 GMT
#61
On August 19 2008 11:05 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 10:02 Mindcrime wrote:
On August 19 2008 09:37 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
one answer:

+ Show Spoiler +


Proof that 5 is false by contradiction:
1) Assume 5 is true. This implies that 1 is true and 3 is true.
2) Since 1 is true, both 2 and 3 are false. But this is a contradiction; 5 said 3 is true. Thus, 5 must be false.

Now we know 5 is false. Let's find any statements that say 5 is true. Statement 3 says 5 is true. Thus, statement 3 must be false.

Now let's find statements which say 3 is true. Both 2 and 5 say 3 is true; thus, both 2 and 5 must be false (we already knew 5 was false).

Finally, we find any statements that say 2 is true. Statement 4 says 2 is true, thus 4 must be false.

So far, we have proved that 2,3,4, and 5 are all false. Let's look at statement 1. Statement 1 says both statements 2 and 3 are false. Hence, statement 1 must be true.

Hence, we have figured out the values of all five statements:

1 is true, and 2,3,4,5 are all false.



If 1 is true then 3 is false then 5 is false then 1 is false.


Negative. If 1 is true, then 3 is false, I agree. But, if 3 is false, then it's the opposite of "4 is false and 5 is true", which is equivalent to: "4 is true AND 5 is true, OR 4 is true AND 5 is false, OR 4 is false AND 5 is false."

Edit: for clarity, I'm showing you the first untrue statement you made which means your conclusion isn't valid.


The reverse of "4 is false, 5 is true" is "4 is true, 5 is false."

That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
crabapple
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States397 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 03:09:42
August 19 2008 02:56 GMT
#62
the real answer

+ Show Spoiler +
assume 5 is true. 5 says 1 is true and 3 are true. ok so look at 1. 1 says 3 is false. direct contradiction with 5 saying that 3 is true.
so 5 IS FALSE. and we can rule out anything else that says 5 is true.
therefore 3 IS FALSE because it claims so. and by chain combo logic, anything saying 3 is true is also false.
so 2 IS FALSE for claiming so. the only thing that can be true is either 1 or 4. and because 4 says 2 is true, which we just prove is totally bogus, 4 is also bogus by the bogus-transitive property.
1 IS TRUE.




Check: 1 says 2 and 3 are false.
2 claims than 1 is false and 3 is true. that is not consistnet with 1. checks out
3 claims that 4 is false and 5 is true. 5 is not true, so that is also not consistent with 1. checks out.

1 IS TRUE
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
August 19 2008 03:04 GMT
#63
On August 19 2008 11:28 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 11:05 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On August 19 2008 10:02 Mindcrime wrote:
On August 19 2008 09:37 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
one answer:

+ Show Spoiler +


Proof that 5 is false by contradiction:
1) Assume 5 is true. This implies that 1 is true and 3 is true.
2) Since 1 is true, both 2 and 3 are false. But this is a contradiction; 5 said 3 is true. Thus, 5 must be false.

Now we know 5 is false. Let's find any statements that say 5 is true. Statement 3 says 5 is true. Thus, statement 3 must be false.

Now let's find statements which say 3 is true. Both 2 and 5 say 3 is true; thus, both 2 and 5 must be false (we already knew 5 was false).

Finally, we find any statements that say 2 is true. Statement 4 says 2 is true, thus 4 must be false.

So far, we have proved that 2,3,4, and 5 are all false. Let's look at statement 1. Statement 1 says both statements 2 and 3 are false. Hence, statement 1 must be true.

Hence, we have figured out the values of all five statements:

1 is true, and 2,3,4,5 are all false.



If 1 is true then 3 is false then 5 is false then 1 is false.


Negative. If 1 is true, then 3 is false, I agree. But, if 3 is false, then it's the opposite of "4 is false and 5 is true", which is equivalent to: "4 is true AND 5 is true, OR 4 is true AND 5 is false, OR 4 is false AND 5 is false."

Edit: for clarity, I'm showing you the first untrue statement you made which means your conclusion isn't valid.


The reverse of "4 is false, 5 is true" is "4 is true, 5 is false."



Please read some basic logic theory.
crabapple
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States397 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 03:10:41
August 19 2008 03:05 GMT
#64
On August 19 2008 06:57 Mindcrime wrote:
Does "false" mean "completely false"?


no false means the entire the is not true.

if i say "bush is a jackass, cheyney is the devil, and bill clinton did not screw monica lewinsky", then we can say about the statement as a whole "it is false", because we know bill clinton did screw monica lewinsky.

now if only bills were rejected as a whole for having one inkling taint. christmas trees would die forever.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
August 19 2008 03:13 GMT
#65
On August 19 2008 12:04 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 11:28 Mindcrime wrote:
On August 19 2008 11:05 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On August 19 2008 10:02 Mindcrime wrote:
On August 19 2008 09:37 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
one answer:

+ Show Spoiler +


Proof that 5 is false by contradiction:
1) Assume 5 is true. This implies that 1 is true and 3 is true.
2) Since 1 is true, both 2 and 3 are false. But this is a contradiction; 5 said 3 is true. Thus, 5 must be false.

Now we know 5 is false. Let's find any statements that say 5 is true. Statement 3 says 5 is true. Thus, statement 3 must be false.

Now let's find statements which say 3 is true. Both 2 and 5 say 3 is true; thus, both 2 and 5 must be false (we already knew 5 was false).

Finally, we find any statements that say 2 is true. Statement 4 says 2 is true, thus 4 must be false.

So far, we have proved that 2,3,4, and 5 are all false. Let's look at statement 1. Statement 1 says both statements 2 and 3 are false. Hence, statement 1 must be true.

Hence, we have figured out the values of all five statements:

1 is true, and 2,3,4,5 are all false.



If 1 is true then 3 is false then 5 is false then 1 is false.


Negative. If 1 is true, then 3 is false, I agree. But, if 3 is false, then it's the opposite of "4 is false and 5 is true", which is equivalent to: "4 is true AND 5 is true, OR 4 is true AND 5 is false, OR 4 is false AND 5 is false."

Edit: for clarity, I'm showing you the first untrue statement you made which means your conclusion isn't valid.


The reverse of "4 is false, 5 is true" is "4 is true, 5 is false."



Please read some basic logic theory.


The OP says "reverse".
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
August 19 2008 03:18 GMT
#66
On August 19 2008 12:13 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 12:04 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On August 19 2008 11:28 Mindcrime wrote:
On August 19 2008 11:05 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On August 19 2008 10:02 Mindcrime wrote:
On August 19 2008 09:37 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
one answer:

+ Show Spoiler +


Proof that 5 is false by contradiction:
1) Assume 5 is true. This implies that 1 is true and 3 is true.
2) Since 1 is true, both 2 and 3 are false. But this is a contradiction; 5 said 3 is true. Thus, 5 must be false.

Now we know 5 is false. Let's find any statements that say 5 is true. Statement 3 says 5 is true. Thus, statement 3 must be false.

Now let's find statements which say 3 is true. Both 2 and 5 say 3 is true; thus, both 2 and 5 must be false (we already knew 5 was false).

Finally, we find any statements that say 2 is true. Statement 4 says 2 is true, thus 4 must be false.

So far, we have proved that 2,3,4, and 5 are all false. Let's look at statement 1. Statement 1 says both statements 2 and 3 are false. Hence, statement 1 must be true.

Hence, we have figured out the values of all five statements:

1 is true, and 2,3,4,5 are all false.



If 1 is true then 3 is false then 5 is false then 1 is false.


Negative. If 1 is true, then 3 is false, I agree. But, if 3 is false, then it's the opposite of "4 is false and 5 is true", which is equivalent to: "4 is true AND 5 is true, OR 4 is true AND 5 is false, OR 4 is false AND 5 is false."

Edit: for clarity, I'm showing you the first untrue statement you made which means your conclusion isn't valid.


The reverse of "4 is false, 5 is true" is "4 is true, 5 is false."



Please read some basic logic theory.


The OP says "reverse".


then the op is wrong and doesn't understand logic, because if that's true it means the process by which I reached my conclusion (which was logically valid, even if you take that "reverse" rule into account) would be wrong and the system in which the problem is based is flawed.
anch
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States5457 Posts
August 19 2008 03:21 GMT
#67
+ Show Spoiler +
FTFTF
run the statement from 1 to 5 once.

just to add, bad wording!!
please use the word 'and', or ppl going to assume false meaning either, 'OR' is not true.
OmgIRok
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Taiwan2699 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 03:45:21
August 19 2008 03:38 GMT
#68
read through it once, i don't want to think about it because i just got back from band camp which is fucking tiring as hell.

3+5true
"Wanna join my [combo] clan?" "We play turret d competitively"
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
August 19 2008 03:40 GMT
#69
On August 19 2008 12:18 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 12:13 Mindcrime wrote:
On August 19 2008 12:04 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On August 19 2008 11:28 Mindcrime wrote:
On August 19 2008 11:05 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On August 19 2008 10:02 Mindcrime wrote:
On August 19 2008 09:37 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
one answer:

+ Show Spoiler +


Proof that 5 is false by contradiction:
1) Assume 5 is true. This implies that 1 is true and 3 is true.
2) Since 1 is true, both 2 and 3 are false. But this is a contradiction; 5 said 3 is true. Thus, 5 must be false.

Now we know 5 is false. Let's find any statements that say 5 is true. Statement 3 says 5 is true. Thus, statement 3 must be false.

Now let's find statements which say 3 is true. Both 2 and 5 say 3 is true; thus, both 2 and 5 must be false (we already knew 5 was false).

Finally, we find any statements that say 2 is true. Statement 4 says 2 is true, thus 4 must be false.

So far, we have proved that 2,3,4, and 5 are all false. Let's look at statement 1. Statement 1 says both statements 2 and 3 are false. Hence, statement 1 must be true.

Hence, we have figured out the values of all five statements:

1 is true, and 2,3,4,5 are all false.



If 1 is true then 3 is false then 5 is false then 1 is false.


Negative. If 1 is true, then 3 is false, I agree. But, if 3 is false, then it's the opposite of "4 is false and 5 is true", which is equivalent to: "4 is true AND 5 is true, OR 4 is true AND 5 is false, OR 4 is false AND 5 is false."

Edit: for clarity, I'm showing you the first untrue statement you made which means your conclusion isn't valid.


The reverse of "4 is false, 5 is true" is "4 is true, 5 is false."



Please read some basic logic theory.


The OP says "reverse".


then the op is wrong and doesn't understand logic, because if that's true it means the process by which I reached my conclusion (which was logically valid, even if you take that "reverse" rule into account) would be wrong and the system in which the problem is based is flawed.
Oh for heaven's sake, just accept that you read the OP too quickly and didn't notice one of the rules. The problem is entitled to define its terms however it likes--if it defines "false" as "the reverse is true", then that's what "false" means in the context of the problem. It has nothing to do with "understanding logic".
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
sYz-Adrenaline
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States1850 Posts
August 19 2008 04:16 GMT
#70
F F T F T
Can you feel the rush?
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 05:08:39
August 19 2008 04:59 GMT
#71
Lots of disagreement. I'll give it a try:
+ Show Spoiler +

Givens:

1 ⇔ ¬2 ∧ ¬3
2 ⇔ ¬1 ∧ 3
3 ⇔ ¬4 ∧ 5
4 ⇔ 2 ∧ ¬3
5 ⇔ 1 ∧ 3

Let's test statement 1, by assuming 1 is true.

A. 1 ⇔ ¬2 ∧ ¬3; let's test the individual components ¬2 and ¬3

B. ¬2 ⇔ ¬(¬1 ∧ 3) ⇔ 1 ∨ ¬3

We are assuming 1 is true, so that holds. How about ¬3? (Note that we are still interested in ¬3 because of statement A, not statement B)

C. ¬3 ⇔¬(¬4 ∧ 5) ⇔ 4 ∨ ¬5

Let's test 4 and ¬5, then.

D. 4 ⇔ 2 ∧ ¬3

But we already have ¬2. So let's check the other term from C, ¬5

E. ¬5 ⇔ ¬(1 ∧ 3) ⇔ ¬1 ∨ ¬3

¬3 we already hold to be true, so E is satisfied, which satisfies C, and so on... so statement 1 is possibly TRUE.

So far, if we assume that 1 is true, we find a consistent result that:
1, ¬2, ¬3, ¬4, ¬5.

Bleh, too lazy to go through all the statements -_- someone else can give it a try

Hah, I guess I was lucky in choosing to start with 1.


AcrossFiveJulys's logic is correct. If you negate "A AND B," then you'll end up with "!A OR !B," not "!A AND !B."
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
Glider
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 05:30:45
August 19 2008 05:01 GMT
#72
i like this puzzle
TabyLing
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Australia69 Posts
August 19 2008 05:07 GMT
#73
On August 19 2008 12:40 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2008 12:18 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On August 19 2008 12:13 Mindcrime wrote:
On August 19 2008 12:04 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On August 19 2008 11:28 Mindcrime wrote:
On August 19 2008 11:05 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On August 19 2008 10:02 Mindcrime wrote:
On August 19 2008 09:37 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
one answer:

+ Show Spoiler +


Proof that 5 is false by contradiction:
1) Assume 5 is true. This implies that 1 is true and 3 is true.
2) Since 1 is true, both 2 and 3 are false. But this is a contradiction; 5 said 3 is true. Thus, 5 must be false.

Now we know 5 is false. Let's find any statements that say 5 is true. Statement 3 says 5 is true. Thus, statement 3 must be false.

Now let's find statements which say 3 is true. Both 2 and 5 say 3 is true; thus, both 2 and 5 must be false (we already knew 5 was false).

Finally, we find any statements that say 2 is true. Statement 4 says 2 is true, thus 4 must be false.

So far, we have proved that 2,3,4, and 5 are all false. Let's look at statement 1. Statement 1 says both statements 2 and 3 are false. Hence, statement 1 must be true.

Hence, we have figured out the values of all five statements:

1 is true, and 2,3,4,5 are all false.



If 1 is true then 3 is false then 5 is false then 1 is false.


Negative. If 1 is true, then 3 is false, I agree. But, if 3 is false, then it's the opposite of "4 is false and 5 is true", which is equivalent to: "4 is true AND 5 is true, OR 4 is true AND 5 is false, OR 4 is false AND 5 is false."

Edit: for clarity, I'm showing you the first untrue statement you made which means your conclusion isn't valid.


The reverse of "4 is false, 5 is true" is "4 is true, 5 is false."



Please read some basic logic theory.


The OP says "reverse".


then the op is wrong and doesn't understand logic, because if that's true it means the process by which I reached my conclusion (which was logically valid, even if you take that "reverse" rule into account) would be wrong and the system in which the problem is based is flawed.
Oh for heaven's sake, just accept that you read the OP too quickly and didn't notice one of the rules. The problem is entitled to define its terms however it likes--if it defines "false" as "the reverse is true", then that's what "false" means in the context of the problem. It has nothing to do with "understanding logic".


yeah but if you reverse it like it says to in the op there is no answer, you just get contradictions.. This implies to me the op forgot the details of the question and made a mistake in the instructions.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
August 19 2008 05:09 GMT
#74
"Reversing" a statement has no logical meaning. There is negation, there is taking the inverse, there is taking the converse.... there is no "reverse" of a statement.

The negation, or the "NOT A" of a statement A, is probably the correct interpretation and yields a consistent result.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
mikeymoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada7170 Posts
August 19 2008 05:15 GMT
#75
+ Show Spoiler +

Assume 5 is true.
3 and 1 are then true. But 1 says 3 is false.
So 5 must be false.
3 is then false.
so 2 is then false.
Then 4 is false.
1 is true.

TFFFF
o_x | Ow. | 1003 ESPORTS dollars | If you have any questions about bans please PM Kennigit
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
August 19 2008 05:17 GMT
#76
mikeymoo, you can't justify "5 is false, therefore 3 is false." It could be 1 that is false, and 3 could be true at that point.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
Glider
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 05:41:29
August 19 2008 05:26 GMT
#77
no solution..

two statement saying eachother is T both has to have the same real value (ie. both true or both false), two statement saying eachother is false both has to have different value.

On August 19 2008 13:16 sYz-Adrenaline wrote:
F F T F T


so 5 is true, and 5 says that 1 is true, but 1 is false?? lol there is no solution dude.
coltrane
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Chile988 Posts
August 19 2008 05:27 GMT
#78
AcrossFiveJulys said everithing that should be said in this case...


please... study some logic...


!(P AND Q)= !P OR !Q

+ Show Spoiler +

1 true, everithing else is false, just need to find a contradiction, and with 5 is easy to find, but try and u will find it on 2,3 and 4 too
Jävla skit
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
August 19 2008 05:49 GMT
#79
Glider.... 1 true and the rest false is consistent. I don't think any other scenario is consistent, as proven by AcrossFiveJulys. "No solution" is the wrong answer.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
Glider
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 06:08:43
August 19 2008 05:50 GMT
#80
On August 19 2008 14:49 BottleAbuser wrote:
Glider.... 1 true and the rest false is consistent. I don't think any other scenario is consistent, as proven by AcrossFiveJulys. "No solution" is the wrong answer.


that is only right if 1 false perimeter makes the whole statement false... which i guess makes sense but if you read the condition at the beginning..

On August 19 2008 06:29 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:

each true keeps the statement the same, each false reverses it.


in this case a false statement 5 would mean that statement 1 is false also...
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
August 19 2008 05:51 GMT
#81
+ Show Spoiler +
Only the first statement is true. Just start from Statement 5 and work your way up from that.
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
dyodyo
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
Philippines578 Posts
August 19 2008 06:12 GMT
#82
Is this already solved? Anyways here is my "guess":
+ Show Spoiler +

1, 2 and 5 are true
3 and 4 are false
TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #26
araav
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Armenia1590 Posts
August 19 2008 06:15 GMT
#83
On August 19 2008 14:51 iamke55 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Only the first statement is true. Just start from Statement 5 and work your way up from that.


true
The flower that blooms in adversity is the most rare and beautiful of all.
iPF[Div]
Profile Joined February 2008
Spain572 Posts
August 19 2008 06:18 GMT
#84
statement 2 and statement 4 prove that there is no possible combination,

if s4 is true than s2 must be true, but statement 4 also states s3 is true while s2 states that it s false, which means impos.

if s4 is false then s2 must be false but by making statement 4 false it would also state than s3 must be false while a false s2 would state s3 must be true, which means impos.

^this is done assuming that being false would completely reverse the statement, however being false doesn't necessarily mean that it is completely wrong, it is simply not wholly correct. which makes s1=t s2-s5=f a possible answer
Since ma jae yoon and jin young soo stabbed me in the fucking back, i've got no one to rep here.
Glider
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States1353 Posts
August 19 2008 06:20 GMT
#85
On August 19 2008 14:51 iamke55 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Only the first statement is true. Just start from Statement 5 and work your way up from that.


what about...
On August 19 2008 06:29 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:
try and figure out which statments are really true and which are really false. enjoy...
each true keeps the statement the same, each false reverses it.

Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
August 19 2008 06:25 GMT
#86
TTFTF

[image loading]
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 06:52:44
August 19 2008 06:48 GMT
#87
Okay, what is a "reverse" of a logical statement?

Uhm... what?

Maybe "tnemetats lacigol a" ?

There is no such logical term as a "reverse." If you assign some arbitrary meaning to the word, such as a function that maps from "A AND B" to "NOT A AND NOT B," then yes, the system becomes unsolvable.

It is much more reasonable to assume that the "reverse" of a statement is the negation of it.

What is the "reverse" of "The sun is shining?" "The not-sun is not shining?" Or "The sun is not shining?" Come on, use common sense.

"If the red light is on, don't go." "If the green light is on, go." How do you reverse those?

"If the light that isn't red isn't on, go." "If the light that isn't green isn't on, don't go." Right? Jeeeeeez.

Even more intuitive example:

This statement is false: "I am 21 years old, and I have 10 million dollars." It is false because although I am 21 years old, I do not have 10 million dollars. Just because the statement is false doesn't mean that I'm not 21, though.

Now, if we "reverse" that statement, we'll end up with "I am not 21 years old and I do not have 10 million dollars." Obviously, both the statement and its reverse are FALSE, and assuming that the two together cover all of the possibilities is fallacious.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
Glider
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 07:02:58
August 19 2008 06:55 GMT
#88
On August 19 2008 15:48 BottleAbuser wrote:
Okay, what is a "reverse" of a logical statement?

Uhm... what?

Maybe "tnemetats lacigol a" ?

There is no such logical term as a "reverse." If you assign some arbitrary meaning to the word, such as a function that maps from "A AND B" to "NOT A AND NOT B," then yes, the system becomes unsolvable.

It is much more reasonable to assume that the "reverse" of a statement is the negation of it.

What is the "reverse" of "The sun is shining?" "The not-sun is not shining?" Or "The sun is not shining?" Come on, use common sense.

"If the red light is on, don't go." "If the green light is on, go." How do you reverse those?

"If the light that isn't red isn't on, go." "If the light that isn't green isn't on, don't go." Right? Jeeeeeez.

Even more intuitive example:

This statement is false: "I am 21 years old, and I have 10 million dollars." It is false because although I am 21 years old, I do not have 10 million dollars. Just because the statement is false doesn't mean that I'm not 21, though.

Now, if we "reverse" that statement, we'll end up with "I am not 21 years old and I do not have 10 million dollars." Obviously, both the statement and its reverse are FALSE, and assuming that the two together cover all of the possibilities is fallacious.


where u get the if statements from, was that in the original questions?

I take reverse as used in this case simply means flip true and false... the reverse of (A is true, B is false) is (A is false, B is true). I don't see how else to interpret him add "reverse the statement". Not to mention only first statement had "AND' in it, every other one is just a comma which confuses things further. And I already said it makes more sense for TFFFF since following commonsense a statement can be false if just one of its parameter is wrong. But a lot of logic questions and puzzles requires you to strictly follow the words, and in this case "Reverse" is not too clear.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 07:11:58
August 19 2008 07:08 GMT
#89
The AND is simple. If Agent A speaks truth, then everything he says must be true. If Agent A makes statement i and statement ii, then i AND ii must be true. Therefore, if Statement 2 is true, both of its assertions must be true. Only one of them needs to be false for Statement 2 as a whole to be false.

Statement 2 says that statement 1 is false, 3 is true.

Truth table:

2 | 1 | 3
T | F | T
F | F | F
F | T | F
F | T | T

Those are the possibilities given by Statement 2. Logically equivalent to AND. Q.E.D.

Also, if you're saying "reverse" means "break into atomic components and reverse each of those," then... well, that's not really a common way to interpret the word. What happens if you reverse a train? Do you turn the whole thing around, or the individual cars and re-link them, or maybe chop them into their constituent molecules and turn each one of those by 180 degrees on the XY plane?

The interpretation where we take the whole thing and flip the sign (negation) makes the most sense to me.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
mikeymoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada7170 Posts
August 19 2008 07:38 GMT
#90
Try two, although I still don't see what you mean, BottleAbuser. Unless you're referring to the "reverse" terminology used in the OP.
+ Show Spoiler +

Assume 1 is true..
2 is false
3 is false
4 is false
5 is false.

Assume 1 is false.
Assume 2 is true
3 is true
4 is false
5 is true

Assume 1 is false
Assume 2 is false
3 is then not true, that would make 2 true.
But 3 cannot be false, or 1 would be true.

So I think my first two satisfy.
o_x | Ow. | 1003 ESPORTS dollars | If you have any questions about bans please PM Kennigit
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 08:11:25
August 19 2008 08:08 GMT
#91
On August 19 2008 14:15 mikeymoo wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Assume 5 is true.
3 and 1 are then true. But 1 says 3 is false.
So 5 must be false.
3 is then false.
so 2 is then false.
Then 4 is false.
1 is true.

TFFFF


I was referring to this post. You have a statement "5 must be false. 3 is then false."

The second statement doesn't follow from the first - it would only if you also had such a statement like "3 is false if 5 is false," which we don't.

Probably you omitted some steps, and the conclusion isn't wrong, but the reasoning is incomplete.

Also, in your more recent post, you seem to say that 5 can be true, but it can't - 5 being true leads to contradiction.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
Pholon
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Netherlands6142 Posts
August 19 2008 08:16 GMT
#92


On August 19 2008 12:21 anch wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
FTFTF
run the statement from 1 to 5 once.



Nope, is 2 is TRUE, 3 must be TRUE as well

On August 19 2008 10:58 sYz-Adrenaline wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +


statement 1) 2 and 3 are false.
statement 2) 1 is false, 3 is true.
statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true.
statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false.
statement 5) 1 is true, 3 is true.

statement 1) = OK
statement 2) = OK
statement 3) = OK
statement 4) = 3 reverses to true! 2 stays the same false
statement 5) = 3 stays the same and so does 1.

1 F
2 F
3 T
4 F
5 T



Ez
Check PLz ?


On August 19 2008 13:16 sYz-Adrenaline wrote:
F F T F T


Nope, cause if 5 is TRUE then 1 is TRUE also

Moderator@TLPholon // "I need a third hand to facepalm right now"
Elite]v[arine
Profile Joined October 2007
United States264 Posts
August 19 2008 10:26 GMT
#93
im satisfied that my friend gave me an unsolvable problem. from what i read here.... whatever =(
AKAs: Pyro]v[aniac ,
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
August 19 2008 10:30 GMT
#94
my head hurts from this. give us another one.
Pholon
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Netherlands6142 Posts
August 19 2008 11:12 GMT
#95
On August 19 2008 19:26 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:
im satisfied that my friend gave me an unsolvable problem. from what i read here.... whatever =(


Hey, you promised to post the answer later on =/
Moderator@TLPholon // "I need a third hand to facepalm right now"
opsayo
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
591 Posts
August 19 2008 11:46 GMT
#96
I got a contradiction under the understanding that:

If something is true, then both of its arguments hold.
If something is false, then both of its arguments are false, i.e. the opposite is what is actual.

If he means that only one or the two arguments can be false i.e.:
ex: Cats are animals and Plants are animals - a false statement despite one of its premises being true... then I don't really feel like solving it which others have figured out.
sYz-Adrenaline
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States1850 Posts
August 19 2008 12:40 GMT
#97
how are 1 and 5 linked together, not in 1 statement are they used at the same time.
Can you feel the rush?
orca
Profile Joined January 2003
Israel469 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 13:44:10
August 19 2008 13:43 GMT
#98
comma means AND.
reverse means NOT.

example: statement 2 (1 is false, 3 is true) is false, reverse it: => NOT ( 1 false AND 3 true) => NOT(1 false) OR NOT(3 true) => 1 true OR 3 false.

edit: oh and TFFFF works.
Post edited for grammar.
Ryan307 :)
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States1289 Posts
August 19 2008 16:21 GMT
#99
What if a statement is False just because ONE of the two variables is incorrect?
that outta stir some shit up?
Dont let the action of factual things fracture your casual swing
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
August 19 2008 16:37 GMT
#100
Someone please close this thread. It's making me (and others) sad.
DamageControL
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States4222 Posts
August 19 2008 17:20 GMT
#101
On August 19 2008 06:29 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:
try and figure out which statments are really true and which are really false. enjoy...
each true keeps the statement the same, each false reverses it. start with statement 1.

statement 1) 2 and 3 are false.
statement 2) 1 is false, 3 is true.
statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true.
statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false.
statement 5) 1 is true, 3 is true.

ill give you guys a while to figure it out before posting the answer.

edit: hint, tally up all the true/false for each statement on a piece of paper as you go.

Since you said start with one i will
I assume 1 is true. This means that 2 and 3 are false, meaning 1 is true, and 4 is true. Except now 2 is true if four is true.

This means 1 is false, right? Well that means 2 and 3 are true. Which mean 2 and three are true. Which means 5 is true. Which means 1 is true. But we just figured out its false. No solution starting with 1.
Liquid | SKT
MiniRoman
Profile Blog Joined September 2003
Canada3953 Posts
August 19 2008 17:20 GMT
#102
+ Show Spoiler +
1 and 5 true, the rest false
Nak Allstar.
DamageControL
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States4222 Posts
August 19 2008 17:20 GMT
#103
On August 19 2008 14:51 iamke55 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Only the first statement is true. Just start from Statement 5 and work your way up from that.

He says start with one...
Liquid | SKT
Jin
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Canada439 Posts
August 19 2008 19:14 GMT
#104
On August 20 2008 02:20 MiniRoman wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
1 and 5 true, the rest false


if 5 is T, 3 is also T, so it doesn't work
^-^v
mikeymoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada7170 Posts
August 19 2008 19:42 GMT
#105
On August 20 2008 01:37 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
Someone please close this thread. It's making me (and others) sad.

Yeah fuck this.
o_x | Ow. | 1003 ESPORTS dollars | If you have any questions about bans please PM Kennigit
kdog3683
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States916 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 21:28:51
August 19 2008 21:00 GMT
#106
+ Show Spoiler +
Assuming 1 = true, 2 and 3 contain elements of falseness.

4 options:

yes, yes
yes, no
no, yes,
no, no

if 2 is completely false, that means, 1 is true and 3 contains elements of falseness. ( which is what we want since it matches up with statement 1)

So far, we have established based on our 1st assumption,

1= completely true.
2= completely false.

If 3 contains elements of falseness, then there are only 3 possibilites. Since the given statement is
"statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true." and that this is false,
Only remaining is:

yes, yes
yes, no
no, no

SKipping ahead for a second, we want to maintain the fact that

1= completely true.
2= completely false.

Thus, with statement 4,"statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false." We want it to be false so that 2 will be false.

Since we have assumed 3 contains elements of falseness, the only remaining choice is (no, no) since (no, yes) is assumed false.

We now have:

1= completely true.
2= completely false.
3= Half True. (but still false)

Since statement 3 allows us to continue the assumption that statement 4 is false, that means we are able to conclude some information.

We know that the first part, 2=yes is false. What we don't know is whether the second part of the statement, 3 is false is true or not.
However, since we already established 3 = half true, we can say the 2nd part of statement 4 is true.

We now have:

1= completely true.
2= completely false.
3= Half True. (but still false)
4= Half True ( but still false)

Statement 5 says 1= true. We must assume this to be true since it is the basis for everything. However, based from statement 3, we had established statement 5 is false. That means 3=yes is incorrect. Meaning 3 is false. ( Which we have established )

Thus

1=true
2=false
3=false
4=false
5=false

Is what I think the answer is.


I think this is right, does anyone have the 100% answer? ( my explanation may be a bit odd though.) I use yes = true, and no = false throughout it.

edit: When I first attempted it, I was operating solely with Completely True or Completely False. When I did this, I ended up going in a circle, since statements contradicted each other.

What i did in the spoiler, was assume that a False statement can still have truth in it.
Multiply your efforts.
GayWinkEr
Profile Joined January 2006
United Kingdom57 Posts
August 19 2008 23:20 GMT
#107
There is no answer to this puzzle, I can only only assume that it was meant to be typed:

statement 1) 2 and 3 are false.
statement 2) 1 is false, 3 is false.
statement 3) 4 is false, 5 is true.
statement 4) 2 is true, 3 is false.
statement 5) 1 is true, 3 is true.

p.s. X.xDeMoNiCx.X, I got nothing done at work 2day thanks to you, you baffoon
p.p.s. There is an actual answer to the above

Up yours
EmeraldSparks
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States1451 Posts
August 19 2008 23:27 GMT
#108
+ Show Spoiler +

TFFFF
But why?
Signet
Profile Joined March 2007
United States1718 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-19 23:56:23
August 19 2008 23:54 GMT
#109
+ Show Spoiler +
1 is true, rest are false


Hm, there's some discussion about what it means to be false. In terms of binary logic, statement 1 would be false if either 2 is true OR if 3 is true. But if that's not how you're defining the question, then it changes the answer...
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