|
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On May 25 2024 20:52 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 20:00 Salazarz wrote:On May 25 2024 16:40 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 13:31 Salazarz wrote:On May 24 2024 05:52 maybenexttime wrote:
Vladimir Putin: Listen carefully. I want you to understand me clearly: if we make that decision, it will only be to protect Ukrainian citizens. And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children! I would like to see those who would give that order in Ukraine."
In other words, Putin said that if they were to invade Ukraine, the Russian troops would use Ukrainian civilians as human shields... to protect them (sic!). So much for Russia trying to protect civilians in Donbas... What he was saying there is that supposedly Russia would only get involved if Ukrainian people themselves made the first move and were fighting against the government then Russia would 'have their backs;' as opposed to Russia inciting and leading an insurrection against Ukraine. He certainly was not saying that Russians are going to round up the civilians and send them up front as cover. I'm pretty sure you knew this already, though. No, that's not what he's describing. He explicitly says "not in the front but behind". He is literally describing Russian troops positioning themselves with Ukrainian civilians in the line of fire. Don't play dumb. Also, the Russian troops were already there and they were the instigators of the whole war. And using human shields is exactly what Russian troops were doing. In a number of interviews Russian commanders like Igor Girkin have described how they hid in the Ukrainian cities without evacuating the civilians. I mean, he's saying that Russia wouldn't enter a fight 'against Ukrainian people,' That part is completely irrelevant to the later statement (and it's completely false). I don't know why you keep bringing this up. Show nested quote +and that they would only consider any action to 'protect Ukrainian people.' Would be pretty weird to then use the words 'stand behind Ukrainian people' in a literal sense rather than claiming that you're there to help and support them.
Like, I'm not saying that Putin isn't full of shit, or that his words about 'only wishing to protect Ukrainians' aren't ridiculous; but you're spinning his (translated) interview in a way that tries to paint him in the worst possible light taking rather big liberties with words, as if the reality isn't bad enough as is. It's stuff like this that really incenses a lot of actual pro-Putin folks and gives ammunition to the whole, 'West is out to get us' narrative. It doesn't make 'your side' look any more righteous, either. This is an official translation. There is no way you can spin it to mean something else because he explicitly said: "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!" If he had said "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them" you could make a case that he meant "let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us supporting them". But he said " behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!". He is literally describing Russian troops hiding behind human shields. There is only one possible interpretation here. He said that the Russian troops will make it impossible for Ukrainian army to hit them without also hitting civilians. If he were talking about protecting civilians from Ukrainian shelling, he'd say the exact opposite - that the Russian troops would stand between the Ukrainian army and the civilians. Seriously, cut the bullshit. You can't be that dumb. Edit: Here's the original Russian version: Show nested quote +Вопрос: А на первый вопрос ответьте. Что может начаться война, Вас это не беспокоит?
В.Путин: Меня это не беспокоит, потому что мы не собираемся и не будем воевать с украинским народом.
Вопрос: Но украинские войска есть, армия есть украинская.
В.Путин: Послушайте внимательно. Я хочу, чтобы Вы однозначно меня понимали, если мы примем такое решение – только для защиты украинских граждан. И пускай попробует кто‑то из числа военнослужащих стрелять в своих людей, за которыми мы будем стоять сзади, не впереди, а сзади. Пускай они попробуют стрелять в женщин и детей! И я посмотрю на тех, кто отдаст такой приказ на Украине. He is literally describing using human shields. He dares the Ukrainian commanders to give an order to shoot at the Russian troops knowing that this would inevitably lead to civilian casualties. There is no other way to interpret that. Don't be a useful idiot. This was not some figure of speech in Russian. The translation is accurate.
You both kinda misread it. The point of that statement in a roundabout way was to say that Ukrainian citizens would be on Russia's side. But as we saw in the East, even Ukranian citizens that identify as Russian ethnics weren't fans of Russia invading and missile striking their country.
|
On May 25 2024 21:13 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 20:52 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 20:00 Salazarz wrote:On May 25 2024 16:40 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 13:31 Salazarz wrote:On May 24 2024 05:52 maybenexttime wrote:
Vladimir Putin: Listen carefully. I want you to understand me clearly: if we make that decision, it will only be to protect Ukrainian citizens. And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children! I would like to see those who would give that order in Ukraine."
In other words, Putin said that if they were to invade Ukraine, the Russian troops would use Ukrainian civilians as human shields... to protect them (sic!). So much for Russia trying to protect civilians in Donbas... What he was saying there is that supposedly Russia would only get involved if Ukrainian people themselves made the first move and were fighting against the government then Russia would 'have their backs;' as opposed to Russia inciting and leading an insurrection against Ukraine. He certainly was not saying that Russians are going to round up the civilians and send them up front as cover. I'm pretty sure you knew this already, though. No, that's not what he's describing. He explicitly says "not in the front but behind". He is literally describing Russian troops positioning themselves with Ukrainian civilians in the line of fire. Don't play dumb. Also, the Russian troops were already there and they were the instigators of the whole war. And using human shields is exactly what Russian troops were doing. In a number of interviews Russian commanders like Igor Girkin have described how they hid in the Ukrainian cities without evacuating the civilians. I mean, he's saying that Russia wouldn't enter a fight 'against Ukrainian people,' That part is completely irrelevant to the later statement (and it's completely false). I don't know why you keep bringing this up. and that they would only consider any action to 'protect Ukrainian people.' Would be pretty weird to then use the words 'stand behind Ukrainian people' in a literal sense rather than claiming that you're there to help and support them.
Like, I'm not saying that Putin isn't full of shit, or that his words about 'only wishing to protect Ukrainians' aren't ridiculous; but you're spinning his (translated) interview in a way that tries to paint him in the worst possible light taking rather big liberties with words, as if the reality isn't bad enough as is. It's stuff like this that really incenses a lot of actual pro-Putin folks and gives ammunition to the whole, 'West is out to get us' narrative. It doesn't make 'your side' look any more righteous, either. This is an official translation. There is no way you can spin it to mean something else because he explicitly said: "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!" If he had said "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them" you could make a case that he meant "let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us supporting them". But he said " behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!". He is literally describing Russian troops hiding behind human shields. There is only one possible interpretation here. He said that the Russian troops will make it impossible for Ukrainian army to hit them without also hitting civilians. If he were talking about protecting civilians from Ukrainian shelling, he'd say the exact opposite - that the Russian troops would stand between the Ukrainian army and the civilians. Seriously, cut the bullshit. You can't be that dumb. Edit: Here's the original Russian version: Вопрос: А на первый вопрос ответьте. Что может начаться война, Вас это не беспокоит?
В.Путин: Меня это не беспокоит, потому что мы не собираемся и не будем воевать с украинским народом.
Вопрос: Но украинские войска есть, армия есть украинская.
В.Путин: Послушайте внимательно. Я хочу, чтобы Вы однозначно меня понимали, если мы примем такое решение – только для защиты украинских граждан. И пускай попробует кто‑то из числа военнослужащих стрелять в своих людей, за которыми мы будем стоять сзади, не впереди, а сзади. Пускай они попробуют стрелять в женщин и детей! И я посмотрю на тех, кто отдаст такой приказ на Украине. He is literally describing using human shields. He dares the Ukrainian commanders to give an order to shoot at the Russian troops knowing that this would inevitably lead to civilian casualties. There is no other way to interpret that. Don't be a useful idiot. This was not some figure of speech in Russian. The translation is accurate. You both kinda misread it. The point of that statement in a roundabout way was to say that Ukrainian citizens would be on Russia's side. But as we saw in the East, even Ukranian citizens that identify as Russian ethnics weren't fans of Russia invading and missile striking their country.
No, the paragraph in question literally says that, by design, Ukrainians won't be able to shoot at the Russian troops without shooting at the civilians. He said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". It's very plain. And they've been using human shields all throughout this conflict.
|
On May 25 2024 21:32 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 21:13 Dan HH wrote:On May 25 2024 20:52 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 20:00 Salazarz wrote:On May 25 2024 16:40 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 13:31 Salazarz wrote:On May 24 2024 05:52 maybenexttime wrote:
Vladimir Putin: Listen carefully. I want you to understand me clearly: if we make that decision, it will only be to protect Ukrainian citizens. And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children! I would like to see those who would give that order in Ukraine."
In other words, Putin said that if they were to invade Ukraine, the Russian troops would use Ukrainian civilians as human shields... to protect them (sic!). So much for Russia trying to protect civilians in Donbas... What he was saying there is that supposedly Russia would only get involved if Ukrainian people themselves made the first move and were fighting against the government then Russia would 'have their backs;' as opposed to Russia inciting and leading an insurrection against Ukraine. He certainly was not saying that Russians are going to round up the civilians and send them up front as cover. I'm pretty sure you knew this already, though. No, that's not what he's describing. He explicitly says "not in the front but behind". He is literally describing Russian troops positioning themselves with Ukrainian civilians in the line of fire. Don't play dumb. Also, the Russian troops were already there and they were the instigators of the whole war. And using human shields is exactly what Russian troops were doing. In a number of interviews Russian commanders like Igor Girkin have described how they hid in the Ukrainian cities without evacuating the civilians. I mean, he's saying that Russia wouldn't enter a fight 'against Ukrainian people,' That part is completely irrelevant to the later statement (and it's completely false). I don't know why you keep bringing this up. and that they would only consider any action to 'protect Ukrainian people.' Would be pretty weird to then use the words 'stand behind Ukrainian people' in a literal sense rather than claiming that you're there to help and support them.
Like, I'm not saying that Putin isn't full of shit, or that his words about 'only wishing to protect Ukrainians' aren't ridiculous; but you're spinning his (translated) interview in a way that tries to paint him in the worst possible light taking rather big liberties with words, as if the reality isn't bad enough as is. It's stuff like this that really incenses a lot of actual pro-Putin folks and gives ammunition to the whole, 'West is out to get us' narrative. It doesn't make 'your side' look any more righteous, either. This is an official translation. There is no way you can spin it to mean something else because he explicitly said: "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!" If he had said "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them" you could make a case that he meant "let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us supporting them". But he said " behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!". He is literally describing Russian troops hiding behind human shields. There is only one possible interpretation here. He said that the Russian troops will make it impossible for Ukrainian army to hit them without also hitting civilians. If he were talking about protecting civilians from Ukrainian shelling, he'd say the exact opposite - that the Russian troops would stand between the Ukrainian army and the civilians. Seriously, cut the bullshit. You can't be that dumb. Edit: Here's the original Russian version: Вопрос: А на первый вопрос ответьте. Что может начаться война, Вас это не беспокоит?
В.Путин: Меня это не беспокоит, потому что мы не собираемся и не будем воевать с украинским народом.
Вопрос: Но украинские войска есть, армия есть украинская.
В.Путин: Послушайте внимательно. Я хочу, чтобы Вы однозначно меня понимали, если мы примем такое решение – только для защиты украинских граждан. И пускай попробует кто‑то из числа военнослужащих стрелять в своих людей, за которыми мы будем стоять сзади, не впереди, а сзади. Пускай они попробуют стрелять в женщин и детей! И я посмотрю на тех, кто отдаст такой приказ на Украине. He is literally describing using human shields. He dares the Ukrainian commanders to give an order to shoot at the Russian troops knowing that this would inevitably lead to civilian casualties. There is no other way to interpret that. Don't be a useful idiot. This was not some figure of speech in Russian. The translation is accurate. You both kinda misread it. The point of that statement in a roundabout way was to say that Ukrainian citizens would be on Russia's side. But as we saw in the East, even Ukranian citizens that identify as Russian ethnics weren't fans of Russia invading and missile striking their country. No, the paragraph in question literally says that, by design, Ukrainians won't be able to shoot at the Russian troops without shooting at the civilians. He said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". It's very plain. And they've been using human shields all throughout this conflict.
I get that, but it's not a statement about literal military strategy, it's a populist statement. He was saying that if a war breaks out the Ukrainian government would be in an impossibile situation since their own citizens would sooner fight against them than against Russia because they love Russia so much. It was obviously bullshit but it's pretty transparent to me what he was going for.
|
On May 25 2024 21:42 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 21:32 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 21:13 Dan HH wrote:On May 25 2024 20:52 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 20:00 Salazarz wrote:On May 25 2024 16:40 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 13:31 Salazarz wrote:On May 24 2024 05:52 maybenexttime wrote:
Vladimir Putin: Listen carefully. I want you to understand me clearly: if we make that decision, it will only be to protect Ukrainian citizens. And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children! I would like to see those who would give that order in Ukraine."
In other words, Putin said that if they were to invade Ukraine, the Russian troops would use Ukrainian civilians as human shields... to protect them (sic!). So much for Russia trying to protect civilians in Donbas... What he was saying there is that supposedly Russia would only get involved if Ukrainian people themselves made the first move and were fighting against the government then Russia would 'have their backs;' as opposed to Russia inciting and leading an insurrection against Ukraine. He certainly was not saying that Russians are going to round up the civilians and send them up front as cover. I'm pretty sure you knew this already, though. No, that's not what he's describing. He explicitly says "not in the front but behind". He is literally describing Russian troops positioning themselves with Ukrainian civilians in the line of fire. Don't play dumb. Also, the Russian troops were already there and they were the instigators of the whole war. And using human shields is exactly what Russian troops were doing. In a number of interviews Russian commanders like Igor Girkin have described how they hid in the Ukrainian cities without evacuating the civilians. I mean, he's saying that Russia wouldn't enter a fight 'against Ukrainian people,' That part is completely irrelevant to the later statement (and it's completely false). I don't know why you keep bringing this up. and that they would only consider any action to 'protect Ukrainian people.' Would be pretty weird to then use the words 'stand behind Ukrainian people' in a literal sense rather than claiming that you're there to help and support them.
Like, I'm not saying that Putin isn't full of shit, or that his words about 'only wishing to protect Ukrainians' aren't ridiculous; but you're spinning his (translated) interview in a way that tries to paint him in the worst possible light taking rather big liberties with words, as if the reality isn't bad enough as is. It's stuff like this that really incenses a lot of actual pro-Putin folks and gives ammunition to the whole, 'West is out to get us' narrative. It doesn't make 'your side' look any more righteous, either. This is an official translation. There is no way you can spin it to mean something else because he explicitly said: "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!" If he had said "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them" you could make a case that he meant "let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us supporting them". But he said " behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!". He is literally describing Russian troops hiding behind human shields. There is only one possible interpretation here. He said that the Russian troops will make it impossible for Ukrainian army to hit them without also hitting civilians. If he were talking about protecting civilians from Ukrainian shelling, he'd say the exact opposite - that the Russian troops would stand between the Ukrainian army and the civilians. Seriously, cut the bullshit. You can't be that dumb. Edit: Here's the original Russian version: Вопрос: А на первый вопрос ответьте. Что может начаться война, Вас это не беспокоит?
В.Путин: Меня это не беспокоит, потому что мы не собираемся и не будем воевать с украинским народом.
Вопрос: Но украинские войска есть, армия есть украинская.
В.Путин: Послушайте внимательно. Я хочу, чтобы Вы однозначно меня понимали, если мы примем такое решение – только для защиты украинских граждан. И пускай попробует кто‑то из числа военнослужащих стрелять в своих людей, за которыми мы будем стоять сзади, не впереди, а сзади. Пускай они попробуют стрелять в женщин и детей! И я посмотрю на тех, кто отдаст такой приказ на Украине. He is literally describing using human shields. He dares the Ukrainian commanders to give an order to shoot at the Russian troops knowing that this would inevitably lead to civilian casualties. There is no other way to interpret that. Don't be a useful idiot. This was not some figure of speech in Russian. The translation is accurate. You both kinda misread it. The point of that statement in a roundabout way was to say that Ukrainian citizens would be on Russia's side. But as we saw in the East, even Ukranian citizens that identify as Russian ethnics weren't fans of Russia invading and missile striking their country. No, the paragraph in question literally says that, by design, Ukrainians won't be able to shoot at the Russian troops without shooting at the civilians. He said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". It's very plain. And they've been using human shields all throughout this conflict. I get that, but it's not a statement about literal military strategy, it's a populist statement. He was saying that if a war breaks out the Ukrainian government would be in an impossibile situation since their own citizens would sooner fight against them than against Russia because they love Russia so much. It was obviously bullshit but it's pretty transparent to me what he was going for.
No, it says nothing about the civilians taking up arms. It quite literally describes a situation where civilians are in the line of fire between the Ukrainian army and the Russian troops, and then he dares the Ukrainian commanders to give the order to shoot. He says "We will put our troops behind the civilians. Try to shoot us, you will hit the civilians."
Otherwise, explain to me why he specifically said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". In what world does that imply protecting the civilians?
|
Croatia9476 Posts
On May 25 2024 21:55 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 21:42 Dan HH wrote:On May 25 2024 21:32 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 21:13 Dan HH wrote:On May 25 2024 20:52 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 20:00 Salazarz wrote:On May 25 2024 16:40 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 13:31 Salazarz wrote:On May 24 2024 05:52 maybenexttime wrote:
Vladimir Putin: Listen carefully. I want you to understand me clearly: if we make that decision, it will only be to protect Ukrainian citizens. And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children! I would like to see those who would give that order in Ukraine."
In other words, Putin said that if they were to invade Ukraine, the Russian troops would use Ukrainian civilians as human shields... to protect them (sic!). So much for Russia trying to protect civilians in Donbas... What he was saying there is that supposedly Russia would only get involved if Ukrainian people themselves made the first move and were fighting against the government then Russia would 'have their backs;' as opposed to Russia inciting and leading an insurrection against Ukraine. He certainly was not saying that Russians are going to round up the civilians and send them up front as cover. I'm pretty sure you knew this already, though. No, that's not what he's describing. He explicitly says "not in the front but behind". He is literally describing Russian troops positioning themselves with Ukrainian civilians in the line of fire. Don't play dumb. Also, the Russian troops were already there and they were the instigators of the whole war. And using human shields is exactly what Russian troops were doing. In a number of interviews Russian commanders like Igor Girkin have described how they hid in the Ukrainian cities without evacuating the civilians. I mean, he's saying that Russia wouldn't enter a fight 'against Ukrainian people,' That part is completely irrelevant to the later statement (and it's completely false). I don't know why you keep bringing this up. and that they would only consider any action to 'protect Ukrainian people.' Would be pretty weird to then use the words 'stand behind Ukrainian people' in a literal sense rather than claiming that you're there to help and support them.
Like, I'm not saying that Putin isn't full of shit, or that his words about 'only wishing to protect Ukrainians' aren't ridiculous; but you're spinning his (translated) interview in a way that tries to paint him in the worst possible light taking rather big liberties with words, as if the reality isn't bad enough as is. It's stuff like this that really incenses a lot of actual pro-Putin folks and gives ammunition to the whole, 'West is out to get us' narrative. It doesn't make 'your side' look any more righteous, either. This is an official translation. There is no way you can spin it to mean something else because he explicitly said: "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!" If he had said "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them" you could make a case that he meant "let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us supporting them". But he said " behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!". He is literally describing Russian troops hiding behind human shields. There is only one possible interpretation here. He said that the Russian troops will make it impossible for Ukrainian army to hit them without also hitting civilians. If he were talking about protecting civilians from Ukrainian shelling, he'd say the exact opposite - that the Russian troops would stand between the Ukrainian army and the civilians. Seriously, cut the bullshit. You can't be that dumb. Edit: Here's the original Russian version: Вопрос: А на первый вопрос ответьте. Что может начаться война, Вас это не беспокоит?
В.Путин: Меня это не беспокоит, потому что мы не собираемся и не будем воевать с украинским народом.
Вопрос: Но украинские войска есть, армия есть украинская.
В.Путин: Послушайте внимательно. Я хочу, чтобы Вы однозначно меня понимали, если мы примем такое решение – только для защиты украинских граждан. И пускай попробует кто‑то из числа военнослужащих стрелять в своих людей, за которыми мы будем стоять сзади, не впереди, а сзади. Пускай они попробуют стрелять в женщин и детей! И я посмотрю на тех, кто отдаст такой приказ на Украине. He is literally describing using human shields. He dares the Ukrainian commanders to give an order to shoot at the Russian troops knowing that this would inevitably lead to civilian casualties. There is no other way to interpret that. Don't be a useful idiot. This was not some figure of speech in Russian. The translation is accurate. You both kinda misread it. The point of that statement in a roundabout way was to say that Ukrainian citizens would be on Russia's side. But as we saw in the East, even Ukranian citizens that identify as Russian ethnics weren't fans of Russia invading and missile striking their country. No, the paragraph in question literally says that, by design, Ukrainians won't be able to shoot at the Russian troops without shooting at the civilians. He said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". It's very plain. And they've been using human shields all throughout this conflict. I get that, but it's not a statement about literal military strategy, it's a populist statement. He was saying that if a war breaks out the Ukrainian government would be in an impossibile situation since their own citizens would sooner fight against them than against Russia because they love Russia so much. It was obviously bullshit but it's pretty transparent to me what he was going for. No, it says nothing about the civilians taking up arms. It quite literally describes a situation where civilians are in the line of fire between the Ukrainian army and the Russian troops, and then he dares the Ukrainian commanders to give the order to shoot. He says "We will put our troops behind the civilians. Try to shoot us, you will hit the civilians." Otherwise, explain to me why he specifically said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". In what world does that imply protecting the civilians?
It's mind-boggling to me to interpret that statement to mean anything other than meaning standing behind someone in a figurative sense. It's obviously a populist bullshit statement, but to think he's saying that he wants to use Ukranian people as human shields so openly is just hearing what you want to hear.
It's also hilariously ironic that in that same post you went to great lengths to provide context and nuance behind Merkel's statements (for which I agree), but choose to bury your head in the sand when it comes to Putin. Doubling down and calling people dumb who disagree with you on this point is just a cherry on top.
|
On May 25 2024 21:55 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 21:42 Dan HH wrote:On May 25 2024 21:32 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 21:13 Dan HH wrote:On May 25 2024 20:52 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 20:00 Salazarz wrote:On May 25 2024 16:40 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 13:31 Salazarz wrote:On May 24 2024 05:52 maybenexttime wrote:
Vladimir Putin: Listen carefully. I want you to understand me clearly: if we make that decision, it will only be to protect Ukrainian citizens. And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children! I would like to see those who would give that order in Ukraine."
In other words, Putin said that if they were to invade Ukraine, the Russian troops would use Ukrainian civilians as human shields... to protect them (sic!). So much for Russia trying to protect civilians in Donbas... What he was saying there is that supposedly Russia would only get involved if Ukrainian people themselves made the first move and were fighting against the government then Russia would 'have their backs;' as opposed to Russia inciting and leading an insurrection against Ukraine. He certainly was not saying that Russians are going to round up the civilians and send them up front as cover. I'm pretty sure you knew this already, though. No, that's not what he's describing. He explicitly says "not in the front but behind". He is literally describing Russian troops positioning themselves with Ukrainian civilians in the line of fire. Don't play dumb. Also, the Russian troops were already there and they were the instigators of the whole war. And using human shields is exactly what Russian troops were doing. In a number of interviews Russian commanders like Igor Girkin have described how they hid in the Ukrainian cities without evacuating the civilians. I mean, he's saying that Russia wouldn't enter a fight 'against Ukrainian people,' That part is completely irrelevant to the later statement (and it's completely false). I don't know why you keep bringing this up. and that they would only consider any action to 'protect Ukrainian people.' Would be pretty weird to then use the words 'stand behind Ukrainian people' in a literal sense rather than claiming that you're there to help and support them.
Like, I'm not saying that Putin isn't full of shit, or that his words about 'only wishing to protect Ukrainians' aren't ridiculous; but you're spinning his (translated) interview in a way that tries to paint him in the worst possible light taking rather big liberties with words, as if the reality isn't bad enough as is. It's stuff like this that really incenses a lot of actual pro-Putin folks and gives ammunition to the whole, 'West is out to get us' narrative. It doesn't make 'your side' look any more righteous, either. This is an official translation. There is no way you can spin it to mean something else because he explicitly said: "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!" If he had said "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them" you could make a case that he meant "let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us supporting them". But he said " behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!". He is literally describing Russian troops hiding behind human shields. There is only one possible interpretation here. He said that the Russian troops will make it impossible for Ukrainian army to hit them without also hitting civilians. If he were talking about protecting civilians from Ukrainian shelling, he'd say the exact opposite - that the Russian troops would stand between the Ukrainian army and the civilians. Seriously, cut the bullshit. You can't be that dumb. Edit: Here's the original Russian version: Вопрос: А на первый вопрос ответьте. Что может начаться война, Вас это не беспокоит?
В.Путин: Меня это не беспокоит, потому что мы не собираемся и не будем воевать с украинским народом.
Вопрос: Но украинские войска есть, армия есть украинская.
В.Путин: Послушайте внимательно. Я хочу, чтобы Вы однозначно меня понимали, если мы примем такое решение – только для защиты украинских граждан. И пускай попробует кто‑то из числа военнослужащих стрелять в своих людей, за которыми мы будем стоять сзади, не впереди, а сзади. Пускай они попробуют стрелять в женщин и детей! И я посмотрю на тех, кто отдаст такой приказ на Украине. He is literally describing using human shields. He dares the Ukrainian commanders to give an order to shoot at the Russian troops knowing that this would inevitably lead to civilian casualties. There is no other way to interpret that. Don't be a useful idiot. This was not some figure of speech in Russian. The translation is accurate. You both kinda misread it. The point of that statement in a roundabout way was to say that Ukrainian citizens would be on Russia's side. But as we saw in the East, even Ukranian citizens that identify as Russian ethnics weren't fans of Russia invading and missile striking their country. No, the paragraph in question literally says that, by design, Ukrainians won't be able to shoot at the Russian troops without shooting at the civilians. He said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". It's very plain. And they've been using human shields all throughout this conflict. I get that, but it's not a statement about literal military strategy, it's a populist statement. He was saying that if a war breaks out the Ukrainian government would be in an impossibile situation since their own citizens would sooner fight against them than against Russia because they love Russia so much. It was obviously bullshit but it's pretty transparent to me what he was going for. No, it says nothing about the civilians taking up arms. It quite literally describes a situation where civilians are in the line of fire between the Ukrainian army and the Russian troops, and then he dares the Ukrainian commanders to give the order to shoot. He says "We will put our troops behind the civilians. Try to shoot us, you will hit the civilians." Otherwise, explain to me why he specifically said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". In what world does that imply protecting the civilians?
I already spent more time on this than it's worth. There's not much more to explain, the point is 'we wouldn't even need to fight cause Ukraine can't shoot its own citizens and their citizens would side with our cause'.
|
On May 25 2024 22:00 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 21:55 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 21:42 Dan HH wrote:On May 25 2024 21:32 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 21:13 Dan HH wrote:On May 25 2024 20:52 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 20:00 Salazarz wrote:On May 25 2024 16:40 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 13:31 Salazarz wrote:On May 24 2024 05:52 maybenexttime wrote:
Vladimir Putin: Listen carefully. I want you to understand me clearly: if we make that decision, it will only be to protect Ukrainian citizens. And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children! I would like to see those who would give that order in Ukraine."
In other words, Putin said that if they were to invade Ukraine, the Russian troops would use Ukrainian civilians as human shields... to protect them (sic!). So much for Russia trying to protect civilians in Donbas... What he was saying there is that supposedly Russia would only get involved if Ukrainian people themselves made the first move and were fighting against the government then Russia would 'have their backs;' as opposed to Russia inciting and leading an insurrection against Ukraine. He certainly was not saying that Russians are going to round up the civilians and send them up front as cover. I'm pretty sure you knew this already, though. No, that's not what he's describing. He explicitly says "not in the front but behind". He is literally describing Russian troops positioning themselves with Ukrainian civilians in the line of fire. Don't play dumb. Also, the Russian troops were already there and they were the instigators of the whole war. And using human shields is exactly what Russian troops were doing. In a number of interviews Russian commanders like Igor Girkin have described how they hid in the Ukrainian cities without evacuating the civilians. I mean, he's saying that Russia wouldn't enter a fight 'against Ukrainian people,' That part is completely irrelevant to the later statement (and it's completely false). I don't know why you keep bringing this up. and that they would only consider any action to 'protect Ukrainian people.' Would be pretty weird to then use the words 'stand behind Ukrainian people' in a literal sense rather than claiming that you're there to help and support them.
Like, I'm not saying that Putin isn't full of shit, or that his words about 'only wishing to protect Ukrainians' aren't ridiculous; but you're spinning his (translated) interview in a way that tries to paint him in the worst possible light taking rather big liberties with words, as if the reality isn't bad enough as is. It's stuff like this that really incenses a lot of actual pro-Putin folks and gives ammunition to the whole, 'West is out to get us' narrative. It doesn't make 'your side' look any more righteous, either. This is an official translation. There is no way you can spin it to mean something else because he explicitly said: "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!" If he had said "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them" you could make a case that he meant "let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us supporting them". But he said " behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!". He is literally describing Russian troops hiding behind human shields. There is only one possible interpretation here. He said that the Russian troops will make it impossible for Ukrainian army to hit them without also hitting civilians. If he were talking about protecting civilians from Ukrainian shelling, he'd say the exact opposite - that the Russian troops would stand between the Ukrainian army and the civilians. Seriously, cut the bullshit. You can't be that dumb. Edit: Here's the original Russian version: Вопрос: А на первый вопрос ответьте. Что может начаться война, Вас это не беспокоит?
В.Путин: Меня это не беспокоит, потому что мы не собираемся и не будем воевать с украинским народом.
Вопрос: Но украинские войска есть, армия есть украинская.
В.Путин: Послушайте внимательно. Я хочу, чтобы Вы однозначно меня понимали, если мы примем такое решение – только для защиты украинских граждан. И пускай попробует кто‑то из числа военнослужащих стрелять в своих людей, за которыми мы будем стоять сзади, не впереди, а сзади. Пускай они попробуют стрелять в женщин и детей! И я посмотрю на тех, кто отдаст такой приказ на Украине. He is literally describing using human shields. He dares the Ukrainian commanders to give an order to shoot at the Russian troops knowing that this would inevitably lead to civilian casualties. There is no other way to interpret that. Don't be a useful idiot. This was not some figure of speech in Russian. The translation is accurate. You both kinda misread it. The point of that statement in a roundabout way was to say that Ukrainian citizens would be on Russia's side. But as we saw in the East, even Ukranian citizens that identify as Russian ethnics weren't fans of Russia invading and missile striking their country. No, the paragraph in question literally says that, by design, Ukrainians won't be able to shoot at the Russian troops without shooting at the civilians. He said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". It's very plain. And they've been using human shields all throughout this conflict. I get that, but it's not a statement about literal military strategy, it's a populist statement. He was saying that if a war breaks out the Ukrainian government would be in an impossibile situation since their own citizens would sooner fight against them than against Russia because they love Russia so much. It was obviously bullshit but it's pretty transparent to me what he was going for. No, it says nothing about the civilians taking up arms. It quite literally describes a situation where civilians are in the line of fire between the Ukrainian army and the Russian troops, and then he dares the Ukrainian commanders to give the order to shoot. He says "We will put our troops behind the civilians. Try to shoot us, you will hit the civilians." Otherwise, explain to me why he specifically said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". In what world does that imply protecting the civilians? It's mind-boggling to me to interpret that statement to mean anything other than meaning standing behind someone in a figurative sense. It's obviously a populist bullshit statement, but to think he's saying that he wants to use Ukranian people as human shields so openly is just hearing what you want to hear. It's also hilariously ironic that in that same post you went to great lengths to provide context and nuance behind Merkel's statements (for which I agree), but choose to bury your head in the sand when it comes to Putin. Doubling down and calling people dumb who disagree with you on this point is just a cherry on top.
And what does "not in the front" mean in this figurative sense?
On May 25 2024 22:03 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 21:55 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 21:42 Dan HH wrote:On May 25 2024 21:32 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 21:13 Dan HH wrote:On May 25 2024 20:52 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 20:00 Salazarz wrote:On May 25 2024 16:40 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 13:31 Salazarz wrote:On May 24 2024 05:52 maybenexttime wrote:
Vladimir Putin: Listen carefully. I want you to understand me clearly: if we make that decision, it will only be to protect Ukrainian citizens. And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children! I would like to see those who would give that order in Ukraine."
In other words, Putin said that if they were to invade Ukraine, the Russian troops would use Ukrainian civilians as human shields... to protect them (sic!). So much for Russia trying to protect civilians in Donbas... What he was saying there is that supposedly Russia would only get involved if Ukrainian people themselves made the first move and were fighting against the government then Russia would 'have their backs;' as opposed to Russia inciting and leading an insurrection against Ukraine. He certainly was not saying that Russians are going to round up the civilians and send them up front as cover. I'm pretty sure you knew this already, though. No, that's not what he's describing. He explicitly says "not in the front but behind". He is literally describing Russian troops positioning themselves with Ukrainian civilians in the line of fire. Don't play dumb. Also, the Russian troops were already there and they were the instigators of the whole war. And using human shields is exactly what Russian troops were doing. In a number of interviews Russian commanders like Igor Girkin have described how they hid in the Ukrainian cities without evacuating the civilians. I mean, he's saying that Russia wouldn't enter a fight 'against Ukrainian people,' That part is completely irrelevant to the later statement (and it's completely false). I don't know why you keep bringing this up. and that they would only consider any action to 'protect Ukrainian people.' Would be pretty weird to then use the words 'stand behind Ukrainian people' in a literal sense rather than claiming that you're there to help and support them.
Like, I'm not saying that Putin isn't full of shit, or that his words about 'only wishing to protect Ukrainians' aren't ridiculous; but you're spinning his (translated) interview in a way that tries to paint him in the worst possible light taking rather big liberties with words, as if the reality isn't bad enough as is. It's stuff like this that really incenses a lot of actual pro-Putin folks and gives ammunition to the whole, 'West is out to get us' narrative. It doesn't make 'your side' look any more righteous, either. This is an official translation. There is no way you can spin it to mean something else because he explicitly said: "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!" If he had said "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them" you could make a case that he meant "let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us supporting them". But he said " behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!". He is literally describing Russian troops hiding behind human shields. There is only one possible interpretation here. He said that the Russian troops will make it impossible for Ukrainian army to hit them without also hitting civilians. If he were talking about protecting civilians from Ukrainian shelling, he'd say the exact opposite - that the Russian troops would stand between the Ukrainian army and the civilians. Seriously, cut the bullshit. You can't be that dumb. Edit: Here's the original Russian version: Вопрос: А на первый вопрос ответьте. Что может начаться война, Вас это не беспокоит?
В.Путин: Меня это не беспокоит, потому что мы не собираемся и не будем воевать с украинским народом.
Вопрос: Но украинские войска есть, армия есть украинская.
В.Путин: Послушайте внимательно. Я хочу, чтобы Вы однозначно меня понимали, если мы примем такое решение – только для защиты украинских граждан. И пускай попробует кто‑то из числа военнослужащих стрелять в своих людей, за которыми мы будем стоять сзади, не впереди, а сзади. Пускай они попробуют стрелять в женщин и детей! И я посмотрю на тех, кто отдаст такой приказ на Украине. He is literally describing using human shields. He dares the Ukrainian commanders to give an order to shoot at the Russian troops knowing that this would inevitably lead to civilian casualties. There is no other way to interpret that. Don't be a useful idiot. This was not some figure of speech in Russian. The translation is accurate. You both kinda misread it. The point of that statement in a roundabout way was to say that Ukrainian citizens would be on Russia's side. But as we saw in the East, even Ukranian citizens that identify as Russian ethnics weren't fans of Russia invading and missile striking their country. No, the paragraph in question literally says that, by design, Ukrainians won't be able to shoot at the Russian troops without shooting at the civilians. He said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". It's very plain. And they've been using human shields all throughout this conflict. I get that, but it's not a statement about literal military strategy, it's a populist statement. He was saying that if a war breaks out the Ukrainian government would be in an impossibile situation since their own citizens would sooner fight against them than against Russia because they love Russia so much. It was obviously bullshit but it's pretty transparent to me what he was going for. No, it says nothing about the civilians taking up arms. It quite literally describes a situation where civilians are in the line of fire between the Ukrainian army and the Russian troops, and then he dares the Ukrainian commanders to give the order to shoot. He says "We will put our troops behind the civilians. Try to shoot us, you will hit the civilians." Otherwise, explain to me why he specifically said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". In what world does that imply protecting the civilians? I already spent more time on this than it's worth. There's not much more to explain, the point is 'we wouldn't even need to fight cause Ukraine can't shoot its own citizens and their citizens would side with our cause'.
In that paragraph Putin is describing what the Russian troops would do, not what the Ukrainian population would do, and how that would result in civilian casualties.
What you're saying doesn't make sense. Putin is clearly not talking about armed separatists, which Ukraine would have no issue shooting. He's talking about about civilians. He literally said "women and children"... And if he were talking about armed rebellion, why mention where Russian troops would be relative to Ukrainian civilians? And, again, explain to me why he specifically said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". If he were speaking figuratively about protecting them, standing in front of them would make sense.
|
Croatia9476 Posts
On May 25 2024 22:04 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 22:00 2Pacalypse- wrote:On May 25 2024 21:55 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 21:42 Dan HH wrote:On May 25 2024 21:32 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 21:13 Dan HH wrote:On May 25 2024 20:52 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 20:00 Salazarz wrote:On May 25 2024 16:40 maybenexttime wrote:On May 25 2024 13:31 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
What he was saying there is that supposedly Russia would only get involved if Ukrainian people themselves made the first move and were fighting against the government then Russia would 'have their backs;' as opposed to Russia inciting and leading an insurrection against Ukraine. He certainly was not saying that Russians are going to round up the civilians and send them up front as cover. I'm pretty sure you knew this already, though. No, that's not what he's describing. He explicitly says "not in the front but behind". He is literally describing Russian troops positioning themselves with Ukrainian civilians in the line of fire. Don't play dumb. Also, the Russian troops were already there and they were the instigators of the whole war. And using human shields is exactly what Russian troops were doing. In a number of interviews Russian commanders like Igor Girkin have described how they hid in the Ukrainian cities without evacuating the civilians. I mean, he's saying that Russia wouldn't enter a fight 'against Ukrainian people,' That part is completely irrelevant to the later statement (and it's completely false). I don't know why you keep bringing this up. and that they would only consider any action to 'protect Ukrainian people.' Would be pretty weird to then use the words 'stand behind Ukrainian people' in a literal sense rather than claiming that you're there to help and support them.
Like, I'm not saying that Putin isn't full of shit, or that his words about 'only wishing to protect Ukrainians' aren't ridiculous; but you're spinning his (translated) interview in a way that tries to paint him in the worst possible light taking rather big liberties with words, as if the reality isn't bad enough as is. It's stuff like this that really incenses a lot of actual pro-Putin folks and gives ammunition to the whole, 'West is out to get us' narrative. It doesn't make 'your side' look any more righteous, either. This is an official translation. There is no way you can spin it to mean something else because he explicitly said: "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!" If he had said "And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them" you could make a case that he meant "let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us supporting them". But he said " behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children!". He is literally describing Russian troops hiding behind human shields. There is only one possible interpretation here. He said that the Russian troops will make it impossible for Ukrainian army to hit them without also hitting civilians. If he were talking about protecting civilians from Ukrainian shelling, he'd say the exact opposite - that the Russian troops would stand between the Ukrainian army and the civilians. Seriously, cut the bullshit. You can't be that dumb. Edit: Here's the original Russian version: Вопрос: А на первый вопрос ответьте. Что может начаться война, Вас это не беспокоит?
В.Путин: Меня это не беспокоит, потому что мы не собираемся и не будем воевать с украинским народом.
Вопрос: Но украинские войска есть, армия есть украинская.
В.Путин: Послушайте внимательно. Я хочу, чтобы Вы однозначно меня понимали, если мы примем такое решение – только для защиты украинских граждан. И пускай попробует кто‑то из числа военнослужащих стрелять в своих людей, за которыми мы будем стоять сзади, не впереди, а сзади. Пускай они попробуют стрелять в женщин и детей! И я посмотрю на тех, кто отдаст такой приказ на Украине. He is literally describing using human shields. He dares the Ukrainian commanders to give an order to shoot at the Russian troops knowing that this would inevitably lead to civilian casualties. There is no other way to interpret that. Don't be a useful idiot. This was not some figure of speech in Russian. The translation is accurate. You both kinda misread it. The point of that statement in a roundabout way was to say that Ukrainian citizens would be on Russia's side. But as we saw in the East, even Ukranian citizens that identify as Russian ethnics weren't fans of Russia invading and missile striking their country. No, the paragraph in question literally says that, by design, Ukrainians won't be able to shoot at the Russian troops without shooting at the civilians. He said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". It's very plain. And they've been using human shields all throughout this conflict. I get that, but it's not a statement about literal military strategy, it's a populist statement. He was saying that if a war breaks out the Ukrainian government would be in an impossibile situation since their own citizens would sooner fight against them than against Russia because they love Russia so much. It was obviously bullshit but it's pretty transparent to me what he was going for. No, it says nothing about the civilians taking up arms. It quite literally describes a situation where civilians are in the line of fire between the Ukrainian army and the Russian troops, and then he dares the Ukrainian commanders to give the order to shoot. He says "We will put our troops behind the civilians. Try to shoot us, you will hit the civilians." Otherwise, explain to me why he specifically said "with us behind them – not in the front, but behind". In what world does that imply protecting the civilians? It's mind-boggling to me to interpret that statement to mean anything other than meaning standing behind someone in a figurative sense. It's obviously a populist bullshit statement, but to think he's saying that he wants to use Ukranian people as human shields so openly is just hearing what you want to hear. It's also hilariously ironic that in that same post you went to great lengths to provide context and nuance behind Merkel's statements (for which I agree), but choose to bury your head in the sand when it comes to Putin. Doubling down and calling people dumb who disagree with you on this point is just a cherry on top. And what does "not in the front" mean in this figurative sense?
He's just clarifying he's not gonna send his troops in first and give Ukranians an excuse to shoot at the civilians that way. His next sentence kind of cements that interpretation: "I would like to see those who would give that order in Ukraine". He's saying he would like to see someone in Ukraine give an order to shoot at the civilians without the pretext. If the Russians send their troops "in front", then the Ukraine would have an obvious excuse to use. Again, all of this is just bullshit politicizing and shouldn't be taken too seriously, but I guarantee you he's not saying he wants to use Ukranian civilians as human shields so openly.
|
That doesn't make any sense. If the Russian troops are behind the civilian population, this is exactly what would give the Ukrainian army the pretext. His phrasing is the exact opposite of what he should use. Russian troops should be away from the civilians. He should make them an easier target and he's describing making them a harder target.
|
On May 25 2024 22:40 maybenexttime wrote:
That doesn't make any sense. If the Russian troops are behind the civilian population, this is exactly what would give the Ukrainian army the pretext. His phrasing is the exact opposite of what he should use. Russian troops should be away from the civilians. He should make them an easier target and he's describing making them a harder target.
I think you're overthinking it. I understood it as this, you're the only one who is confused or playing semantics.
|
On May 25 2024 20:27 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 19:06 SC-Shield wrote:Yes, it's easy to judge looking backwards. For instance, you could even tell from his meeting with Merkel when he brought a dog in the meeting (she fears dogs allegedly) that he never had enough respect for her. Kremlin is pretty good at such provocations because if you complain about a labrador, it's like you complain about a golden retriever and you'll likely be laughed at. It's generally a friendly dog but it was definitely an act of disrespect. E.g. https://ca.news.yahoo.com/fact-check-truth-behind-claims-110000977.htmlWorld leaders can probably co-exist with Russia peacefully and do fine economically, the problem is who is in government and right now the person in government is a thug, you can't negotiate with thugs and this should have been clear after Georgia. Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 19:52 0x64 wrote:
She is kind of a genius, quite awesome how she tricked Putin and his aging mind, sadly that made him paranoid and now he sees nazis everywhere.
I wonder if your missiles know if the civilian was pro or against Maidan.
-please remind me of any actions that Merkel and Hollande took against Ukraine when it violated the obligations
Naah I'd rather execute an Ukrainian civilian. That way we can talk the same language
|
On May 25 2024 22:57 SC-Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 22:40 maybenexttime wrote:
That doesn't make any sense. If the Russian troops are behind the civilian population, this is exactly what would give the Ukrainian army the pretext. His phrasing is the exact opposite of what he should use. Russian troops should be away from the civilians. He should make them an easier target and he's describing making them a harder target. I think you're overthinking it. I understood it as this, you're the only one who is confused or playing semantics.
You do realize that the press conference was in Russian, right? And that still doesn't explain the contrast he used.
|
FYI
Just now in Kharkiv Russian army targeted hypermarket (called Epicenter, where you could buy bath appliances, bulding tools or staff for your garden) with aerial bomb, around 200 civilians were estimated to be in the shopping area
|
On May 25 2024 23:25 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 22:57 SC-Shield wrote:On May 25 2024 22:40 maybenexttime wrote:
That doesn't make any sense. If the Russian troops are behind the civilian population, this is exactly what would give the Ukrainian army the pretext. His phrasing is the exact opposite of what he should use. Russian troops should be away from the civilians. He should make them an easier target and he's describing making them a harder target. I think you're overthinking it. I understood it as this, you're the only one who is confused or playing semantics. You do realize that the press conference was in Russian, right? And that still doesn't explain the contrast he used.
Ok, I read the Russian version and it's exactly as 2Pacalypse- explained it to you in last post. I have nothing more to add, I was going to say the same thing after reading it.
|
United States41983 Posts
On May 25 2024 23:37 Dav1oN wrote:
FYI
Just now in Kharkiv Russian army targeted hypermarket (called Epicenter, where you could buy bath appliances, bulding tools or staff for your garden) with aerial bomb, around 200 civilians were estimated to be in the shopping area
Just another Kherson Christmas market level atrocity. Ruzzists want Ukrainians dead as punishment for dreaming of not being serfs.
|
I just though of a little philosophical game.
We give a russian civilian supporting the war a magic button that would instantly kill an Ukrainian support Zelensky.
And we do the same with a button for an Ukranian civilian a similar button that would kill a russian war supporter.
The Russian does not push the button, the Ukranian does press the button.
The reason I am thinking this, is that for a Russian, there is nothing personal against Ukranians, but for Ukrainians, it will be personal for 100 years.
|
On May 25 2024 23:37 Dav1oN wrote:
FYI
Just now in Kharkiv Russian army targeted hypermarket (called Epicenter, where you could buy bath appliances, bulding tools or staff for your garden) with aerial bomb, around 200 civilians were estimated to be in the shopping area
That's just so sick, the reality does not change. Hope your family can stay safe.
|
Small side issue. The spam from Russian bots about Ukrainian women in your area is getting annoying. Started just as it became a war instead of a quick military intervention and hasn't stopped since. Basing it being Russian spam on a few things, timing, content and finally that it is a known strategy commented on by the the anti Russian propaganda volunteers.
It is actually one of the main things that keeps reminding me about the war. So I guess it serves the opposite purpose once you know it is there to negatively affect how you think about Ukraine and Ukrainian refugees.
|
I didn't know that was a thing. What's supposed to be the point of this strategy?
|
On May 27 2024 04:29 Sent. wrote:
I didn't know that was a thing. What's supposed to be the point of this strategy?
Just one of many different disinformation or discussion shaping campaigns. If you get stuck on one then the next one is more likely to stick and then you are walking down the slippery slope of right wing extremism and/or nationalism. Both which benefit Russia since you don't want to engage outside your bubble.
If you start thinking Ukrainians are worth less than you, then I guess you don't want to sacrifice anything for them.
To be honest I am not an expert on the topic, so mostly guesses.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
