EPTT-90M are coming into Russian Army en masse now, so we'll see how they fare against each other. Though still main tank killers in this war are ATGM/artillery, not peer-to-peer tank combat (which still happens of course).
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 362
| Forum Index > General Forum |
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. | ||
|
Ardias
Russian Federation610 Posts
T-90M are coming into Russian Army en masse now, so we'll see how they fare against each other. Though still main tank killers in this war are ATGM/artillery, not peer-to-peer tank combat (which still happens of course). | ||
|
Acrofales
Spain18004 Posts
On January 25 2023 05:41 Ardias wrote: Well, I guess there go explanations about maintenance and operation being too hard, proper supply to be impossible or terrain in Ukraine impassable. T-90M are coming into Russian Army en masse now, so we'll see how they fare against each other. Though still main tank killers in this war are ATGM/artillery, not peer-to-peer tank combat (which still happens of course). It's still entirely possible that training and supply will indeed prove to be a problem, but that was never the real reason not to send them anyway. That's a reason to step up training and provide logistical support IN ADDITION to the tanks, if you want Ukraine to be able to use them effectively. | ||
|
0x64
Finland4560 Posts
On January 25 2023 04:25 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Ukraine I need tanks. NATO We don't want to give you any tanks since that would be an escalation. USA I'm not sending any tanks. Besides my tanks were designed for fighting on the steps of eastern Europe so they are going to be completely worthless in this situation. France I'm giving you some totally not tanks. Only for scouting. No escalation here. UK Well I don't give a shit what Russia thinks so I will give an insignificant amount of tanks. So basically no escalation, nothing to be alarmed about. Poland: I want to give tanks if someone can give them with me but no one wants too so no escalation here either. Finland: I can give some tanks with you but I'm a small insignificant country so it's very non threatening. Poland: Besides Germany who "loves Russia" don't let us send tanks. Germany: Look I don't want to escalate things at all. You can send your insignificant amount of tanks I'm not sending tanks unless the US does and he doesn't want to at all. USA God damn hippy liberal euro thrash. I guess I have no choice but to send a fuckton of tanks then. But I'm warning you that despite past excellent track records in actual wars these tanks will be completely useless for the task they were designed for so really this doesn't matter at all. Germany Well he called me so I guess I also have to send some tanks. Unfortunately they are way to heavy and will be completely useless without the equipment for moving them around and building heavier bridges (that we sent you a couple of months ago). Poland, Finland and the rest of Europe Aight I guess we have to send some tanks to then even though we absolutely don't want to. UK Upstaged by flaming eurotards. I wonder if I should increase the number of challengers to a full company just to show them? NATO So you see Ukraine and Russia. We absolutely do not want to send any tanks or heavy equipment except for the ones were send where we don't have any choice. But we don't want to. Besides they are completely useless. And we absolutely won't send another wave once training and logistics are established. So no escalation here, absolutely no threat. Please continue with the spring offensive won't be a problem. Holland (NATO aide) Sir the training of the F16 ground teams and pilots are almost done, should I start packing up the planes we designated for transfer? NATO Not now you dutch baffon! ROFL, good one! | ||
|
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
| ||
|
schaf
Germany1326 Posts
| ||
KwarK
United States42778 Posts
| ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands21705 Posts
On January 25 2023 07:12 KwarK wrote: But it is a background war like Afghanistan. Ukraine falling to Russia doesn't change anything as far as Western Europe is concerned. Russia would be just as big (or small) a threat after that as it was before 2022, or before 2014.It’s a problem that Western Europe still isn’t treating this war as a war. Sending decades old mothballed equipment is better than sending nothing at all but if Britain had been invaded a year ago we’d have built a tank factory by now. If Ukraine doesn’t win with the spares we send them we’ll need to actually build them shit and there seems no will to do that. We’re treating this as a background distant war, like Afghanistan, something going on but not really important, not something that requires any real attention. It needs to be treated more like lend lease in WW2, an existential threat that must be mobilized to be met. A company of challengers is nice but Britain is a nation of 70 million, if we were fighting for our lives we wouldn’t do a company of challengers one time, we’d build a company each day. We’d mass produce them like we did airframes in WW2. Russia directly attacking NATO is still unthinkable. (Note, I agree that we should all be doing more and that NATO should be involved a lot more directly. Just being devil's advocate here) | ||
|
warding
Portugal2394 Posts
On January 25 2023 07:12 KwarK wrote: It’s a problem that Western Europe still isn’t treating this war as a war. Sending decades old mothballed equipment is better than sending nothing at all but if Britain had been invaded a year ago we’d have built a tank factory by now. If Ukraine doesn’t win with the spares we send them we’ll need to actually build them shit and there seems no will to do that. We’re treating this as a background distant war, like Afghanistan, something going on but not really important, not something that requires any real attention. It needs to be treated more like lend lease in WW2, an existential threat that must be mobilized to be met. A company of challengers is nice but Britain is a nation of 70 million, if we were fighting for our lives we wouldn’t do a company of challengers one time, we’d build a company each day. We’d mass produce them like we did airframes in WW2. Another thing we could do would be to mandate work from home again, as well as ration gas, to bring oil prices crashing down. Then again, this would be politically unfeasible precisely because the public does not feel we're at war. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4163 Posts
On January 25 2023 07:27 Gorsameth wrote: But it is a background war like Afghanistan. Ukraine falling to Russia doesn't change anything as far as Western Europe is concerned. Russia would be just as big (or small) a threat after that as it was before 2022, or before 2014. Russia directly attacking NATO is still unthinkable. (Note, I agree that we should all be doing more and that NATO should be involved a lot more directly. Just being devil's advocate here) Ukraine has become far more valuable since Russia's invasion, there are many reasons why the outcome of this war matters a whole lot more than the Afghan war. If Ukraine can repel Russia, they'll likely become a loyal and powerful NATO ally at some point, and that would help deter Russia in the future. Ukraine is also among the biggest exporters of wheat and we don't want Russia to control their market. Foreign companies will invest into Ukraine at a very rapid rate due to a high level of security that didn't exist before (Shell pulled out because of fears of a Russian invasion, and... will you look at that, they were right. Good nose), and that will be especially valuable now that ties with Russia have been cut. Access to the Black Sea is also highly valuable for logistics and resources. The railway system in Ukraine can be adjusted to the EU standard. These are just the reasons I can come up with off the top of my head. tl;dr the threat of losing Ukraine to Russia has now been added to the prospect of having Ukraine as an economic and military ally, and the combination of that makes Ukraine especially valuable. | ||
|
Ardias
Russian Federation610 Posts
On January 25 2023 06:51 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So now the only question is who/when does the training go ahead... https://twitter.com/alexbward/status/1617947391793172480 https://breakingdefense.com/2023/01/ukrainian-troops-could-fight-with-leopard-2s-by-early-spring-experts/ Article about training time. 4 to 6 weeks sounds highly optimistic though, and I bet it includes only basic crew training, not the battalion/brigade-wide combat alignment. I bet on 3-4 months the least if it to be done properly. Preparation of western-armed AFU units for Kherson and Balakleya offensives was in range of 1,5-3 months, but those units were comprised of mostly Soviet-made heavy equipment from former Eastern Bloc countries, not including light vehicles. | ||
|
KwarK
United States42778 Posts
On January 25 2023 07:27 Gorsameth wrote: But it is a background war like Afghanistan. Ukraine falling to Russia doesn't change anything as far as Western Europe is concerned. Russia would be just as big (or small) a threat after that as it was before 2022, or before 2014. Russia directly attacking NATO is still unthinkable. (Note, I agree that we should all be doing more and that NATO should be involved a lot more directly. Just being devil's advocate here) When the oil money impacts all European politics, proxy forces shoot down passenger airliners, British citizens die from chemical weapons attacks etc. we must ask the question whether we were ever at peace. They certainly don’t seem to think so, even if we do. Hell, Russia isn’t at war with Ukraine, this is just how they interact with their neighbours when a nuclear aegis isn’t involved. Russian peace is adversarial, violent, and difficult to distinguish from war. No amount of money or cooperative benefit can appease them. If they’re insisting on having a war I think it’s reasonable to acknowledge that it is what it is. We don’t have to declare war, they certainly haven’t felt the need to do so, but we do need to mobilize the economy to a war footing. | ||
|
food
United States1951 Posts
On January 25 2023 05:41 Ardias wrote: Well, I guess there go explanations about maintenance and operation being too hard, proper supply to be impossible or terrain in Ukraine impassable. T-90M are coming into Russian Army en masse now, so we'll see how they fare against each other. Though still main tank killers in this war are ATGM/artillery, not peer-to-peer tank combat (which still happens of course). What's en masse? What are the numbers? | ||
|
Ardias
Russian Federation610 Posts
Reportedly (from rapid appereances on different parts of the front in different units, to some inside info) - around 200 produced in 2022. Estimated number by the end of 2021 was 30-40. Some sources claimed a hundred before the war, but it seemed unlikely based on reported tank distribution around the combat units at that time, most likely it simply included the ones that were ordered pre-war in 2022 in overal numbers. There are also T-72B3M and T-80BVM being produced simultaneously (as well as T-62M-something, but won't count them in there). They have less sophisticated fire control, smaller loading mechanism (so sabot rounds would have less penetration than in T-90M) and a bit less turret protection, but would still are capable to contest Leo2A4 version at least. Hard to say about their numbers, but from the several photos of UralVagonZavod production lines - T-72B3M seems similar in numbers to T-90M, if not more numerous (judging by hulls and turrets in place). T-80BVM is produced on separate plant, so harder to quantify, but at least several dozens were caught on video being shipped to the front. Though T-72B3M and T-80BVM are mostly produced from old hulls by conducting capital repairs (the thing Manit0u mentioned previously) and applying modernization package. T-90M are partly converted from older T-90A, partly produced from new hulls. | ||
|
0x64
Finland4560 Posts
En masse, russian army has received 115 Tonnes of T90s :D | ||
|
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
edit: Soledar has fallen. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4163 Posts
| ||
|
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
| ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands21705 Posts
On January 26 2023 01:53 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: It continues because for it to stop would be admitting that Russia has been beaten and Russia can't have that as a nation pretending to be strong.Will there ever be a point where Russia bows out of this disaster? There has to be a point where it's not worth it to keep scaling this up. From 3 day military operation to facing western tank squads. Where does it end. Why does it continue. The fact that everyone has long since learned that Russia is a feeble paper tiger doesn't appear to matter, so long as they can keep lying to themselves and their population, who certainly are not buying it either. | ||
|
Silvanel
Poland4730 Posts
Let's not become complacent. | ||
|
Hondelul
1999 Posts
| ||
| ||
