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On January 24 2023 18:32 Mikau313 wrote:
No, I don't think you can.
But you then also can't go around and blame pacifism because of WW2 for not doing enough for the same reason.
There is a difference between A:"I don't want to do X because of historic context" and B:"I don't want to do X because there is a larger group that is against it based on historic context". Person A would have to face the argument that historic context could also force them do do X. Person B doesn't, because Person B is not motivated by historic context, but by the support of the group that is.
You could also flip this around, enter the alternate universe where germany really doesn't want to support ukraine in any way without any ideological reason, but is forced to by a large enough size of its population that does buy into the historical debt argument.
Welcome to politics and public opinion. The application of logic and consistency is optional.
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On January 24 2023 05:07 Ardias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 05:01 Manit0u wrote:On January 24 2023 00:52 Artesimo wrote:On January 24 2023 00:31 Manit0u wrote:
I really don't know why people are so obsessed with Leopards. I don't think UA can even use them effectively since they have no infrastructure for it (it makes it really hard to move your tanks around if your roads and bridges are not compatible with them - Poland initially had this problem with Leopards too), not even mentioning training. I assume that leopards for ukraine would also mean using maintenance facilities around ukraine for more complicated repairs. In terms of using them, the ukrainian military has demonstrated high capability to absorb all sorts of different hardware and use it. I am confident that they would manage to make good use of them. The thing is, I don't think they actually CAN use them. Tanks aren't of much use if you can't get them to where they need to be and that's the problem. If your bridges aren't wide enough or can't support the weight you can't get your tanks across. If I remember correctly Poland had this exact problem when we first got the Leopards. All we could do basically was move it between 3 bases and that's it. Big chunks of Poland were inaccessible for those tanks as there was no sufficient road/rail infrastructure and driving tanks off-road is extremely inefficient outside of battles. Well, they somehow do move 55-ton Pzh 2000 around.
Erm, yeah. It's considerably easier to find routes for a vehicle that has 18-41 miles range (depending on ammo), than for a frontline combat vehicle. And i say that as someone who has shovelled and pulled Leo 2s out of the mud (albeit 2A5 models) as well as aided in getting tracks back on - in the Sennelager area, which is considerably less marshy than most of the Ukraine.
Of course, the Chally 2 will struggle even more.
In regards to the general topic, it's sad to see how many people fall for the propaganda machine of the polish PoS, arguing as if Germany is actually blocking the transport of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine when there haven't even been requests made.
To be clear: only today the request came in. There was nothing to block prior to this morning (indeed, germany did say that they wouldn't stay in the way if that request was made weeks ago). If you want to talk about dragging feet, ask why Poland only just now sent a request, while ramping up the anti-germany rhetoric. Falling for the most obvious and lame populist election-strategy is just pathetic.
Why's no one wondering why those requests never came in until today, while already bashing germany over weeks for blocking these requests, while posturing about how that decision wouldn't matter anyway?
And why are we talking like it's Poland sending Leo 2s anyway, considering they expect the EU to pay for them?
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
Here. Yes, germany could do more, i'm not arguing that. But to argue like they're doing nothing/barely anything is just pathetic and shows that research hasn't been done. It also doesn't take into account that germany is the biggest contributor to aid directly from the EU (like the Leo 2s that Poland is expecting us to pay for now, while acting like they are "donating" tanks), lets not leave that out.
Not that i'm shocked about the anti-german rhetoric, be it here or on the internet in general, but it's mind boggling that it's fuelled by "arguments" made by the polish PoS. As if one could take that party serious, or as if they actually make a valid argument.
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On January 24 2023 23:13 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 05:07 Ardias wrote:On January 24 2023 05:01 Manit0u wrote:On January 24 2023 00:52 Artesimo wrote:On January 24 2023 00:31 Manit0u wrote:
I really don't know why people are so obsessed with Leopards. I don't think UA can even use them effectively since they have no infrastructure for it (it makes it really hard to move your tanks around if your roads and bridges are not compatible with them - Poland initially had this problem with Leopards too), not even mentioning training. I assume that leopards for ukraine would also mean using maintenance facilities around ukraine for more complicated repairs. In terms of using them, the ukrainian military has demonstrated high capability to absorb all sorts of different hardware and use it. I am confident that they would manage to make good use of them. The thing is, I don't think they actually CAN use them. Tanks aren't of much use if you can't get them to where they need to be and that's the problem. If your bridges aren't wide enough or can't support the weight you can't get your tanks across. If I remember correctly Poland had this exact problem when we first got the Leopards. All we could do basically was move it between 3 bases and that's it. Big chunks of Poland were inaccessible for those tanks as there was no sufficient road/rail infrastructure and driving tanks off-road is extremely inefficient outside of battles. Well, they somehow do move 55-ton Pzh 2000 around. Erm, yeah. It's considerably easier to find routes for a vehicle that has 18-41 miles range (depending on ammo), than for a frontline combat vehicle. And i say that as someone who has shovelled and pulled Leo 2s out of the mud (albeit 2A5 models) as well as aided in getting tracks back on - in the Sennelager area, which is considerably less marshy than most of the Ukraine. Of course, the Chally 2 will struggle even more. In regards to the general topic, it's sad to see how many people fall for the propaganda machine of the polish PoS, arguing as if Germany is actually blocking the transport of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine when there haven't even been requests made. To be clear: only today the request came in. There was nothing to block prior to this morning (indeed, germany did say that they wouldn't stay in the way if that request was made weeks ago). If you want to talk about dragging feet, ask why Poland only just now sent a request, while ramping up the anti-germany rhetoric. Falling for the most obvious and lame populist election-strategy is just pathetic. Why's no one wondering why those requests never came in until today, while already bashing germany over weeks for blocking these requests, while posturing about how that decision wouldn't matter anyway? And why are we talking like it's Poland sending Leo 2s anyway, considering they expect the EU to pay for them? https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/Here. Yes, germany could do more, i'm not arguing that. But to argue like they're doing nothing/barely anything is just pathetic and shows that research hasn't been done. It also doesn't take into account that germany is the biggest contributor to aid directly from the EU (like the Leo 2s that Poland is expecting us to pay for now, while acting like they are "donating" tanks), lets not leave that out. Not that i'm shocked about the anti-german rhetoric, be it here or on the internet in general, but it's mind boggling that it's fuelled by "arguments" made by the polish PoS. As if one could take that party serious, or as if they actually make a valid argument.
The absolute numbers don't tell the whole picture. Germany's relative numbers are very weak and they put them squarely in the bottom half of supporting nations.
Poland is doing much better with their military support, to be precise they're roughly five times better than Germany.
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On January 24 2023 23:13 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 05:07 Ardias wrote:On January 24 2023 05:01 Manit0u wrote:On January 24 2023 00:52 Artesimo wrote:On January 24 2023 00:31 Manit0u wrote:
I really don't know why people are so obsessed with Leopards. I don't think UA can even use them effectively since they have no infrastructure for it (it makes it really hard to move your tanks around if your roads and bridges are not compatible with them - Poland initially had this problem with Leopards too), not even mentioning training. I assume that leopards for ukraine would also mean using maintenance facilities around ukraine for more complicated repairs. In terms of using them, the ukrainian military has demonstrated high capability to absorb all sorts of different hardware and use it. I am confident that they would manage to make good use of them. The thing is, I don't think they actually CAN use them. Tanks aren't of much use if you can't get them to where they need to be and that's the problem. If your bridges aren't wide enough or can't support the weight you can't get your tanks across. If I remember correctly Poland had this exact problem when we first got the Leopards. All we could do basically was move it between 3 bases and that's it. Big chunks of Poland were inaccessible for those tanks as there was no sufficient road/rail infrastructure and driving tanks off-road is extremely inefficient outside of battles. Well, they somehow do move 55-ton Pzh 2000 around. Erm, yeah. It's considerably easier to find routes for a vehicle that has 18-41 miles range (depending on ammo), than for a frontline combat vehicle. And i say that as someone who has shovelled and pulled Leo 2s out of the mud (albeit 2A5 models) as well as aided in getting tracks back on - in the Sennelager area, which is considerably less marshy than most of the Ukraine. Of course, the Chally 2 will struggle even more. In regards to the general topic, it's sad to see how many people fall for the propaganda machine of the polish PoS, arguing as if Germany is actually blocking the transport of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine when there haven't even been requests made. To be clear: only today the request came in. There was nothing to block prior to this morning (indeed, germany did say that they wouldn't stay in the way if that request was made weeks ago). If you want to talk about dragging feet, ask why Poland only just now sent a request, while ramping up the anti-germany rhetoric. Falling for the most obvious and lame populist election-strategy is just pathetic.
Why's no one wondering why those requests never came in until today, while already bashing germany over weeks for blocking these requests, while posturing about how that decision wouldn't matter anyway?And why are we talking like it's Poland sending Leo 2s anyway, considering they expect the EU to pay for them? https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/Here. Yes, germany could do more, i'm not arguing that. But to argue like they're doing nothing/barely anything is just pathetic and shows that research hasn't been done. It also doesn't take into account that germany is the biggest contributor to aid directly from the EU (like the Leo 2s that Poland is expecting us to pay for now, while acting like they are "donating" tanks), lets not leave that out. Not that i'm shocked about the anti-german rhetoric, be it here or on the internet in general, but it's mind boggling that it's fuelled by "arguments" made by the polish PoS. As if one could take that party serious, or as if they actually make a valid argument.
This has already been answered in this thread.
Poland tends to only put formal requests in after the informal back channels have indicated that the request will be granted. The fact that that they've only recently formally requested it recently potentially/likely (depending on perspective) means that the informal talks about them were going poorly.
In addition to that, the "anti German rhetoric" as you call it (which is a weird way of saying "justified" criticism) isn't just about the whole Poland sending tanks thing. Germany simply isn't doing enough. They send less per capita than most other European countries. Germany can and should send far more than it is doing currently regardless of whether Poland is sending tanks.
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On January 24 2023 23:53 Mikau313 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 23:13 m4ini wrote:On January 24 2023 05:07 Ardias wrote:On January 24 2023 05:01 Manit0u wrote:On January 24 2023 00:52 Artesimo wrote:On January 24 2023 00:31 Manit0u wrote:
I really don't know why people are so obsessed with Leopards. I don't think UA can even use them effectively since they have no infrastructure for it (it makes it really hard to move your tanks around if your roads and bridges are not compatible with them - Poland initially had this problem with Leopards too), not even mentioning training. I assume that leopards for ukraine would also mean using maintenance facilities around ukraine for more complicated repairs. In terms of using them, the ukrainian military has demonstrated high capability to absorb all sorts of different hardware and use it. I am confident that they would manage to make good use of them. The thing is, I don't think they actually CAN use them. Tanks aren't of much use if you can't get them to where they need to be and that's the problem. If your bridges aren't wide enough or can't support the weight you can't get your tanks across. If I remember correctly Poland had this exact problem when we first got the Leopards. All we could do basically was move it between 3 bases and that's it. Big chunks of Poland were inaccessible for those tanks as there was no sufficient road/rail infrastructure and driving tanks off-road is extremely inefficient outside of battles. Well, they somehow do move 55-ton Pzh 2000 around. Erm, yeah. It's considerably easier to find routes for a vehicle that has 18-41 miles range (depending on ammo), than for a frontline combat vehicle. And i say that as someone who has shovelled and pulled Leo 2s out of the mud (albeit 2A5 models) as well as aided in getting tracks back on - in the Sennelager area, which is considerably less marshy than most of the Ukraine. Of course, the Chally 2 will struggle even more. In regards to the general topic, it's sad to see how many people fall for the propaganda machine of the polish PoS, arguing as if Germany is actually blocking the transport of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine when there haven't even been requests made. To be clear: only today the request came in. There was nothing to block prior to this morning (indeed, germany did say that they wouldn't stay in the way if that request was made weeks ago). If you want to talk about dragging feet, ask why Poland only just now sent a request, while ramping up the anti-germany rhetoric. Falling for the most obvious and lame populist election-strategy is just pathetic.
Why's no one wondering why those requests never came in until today, while already bashing germany over weeks for blocking these requests, while posturing about how that decision wouldn't matter anyway?And why are we talking like it's Poland sending Leo 2s anyway, considering they expect the EU to pay for them? https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/Here. Yes, germany could do more, i'm not arguing that. But to argue like they're doing nothing/barely anything is just pathetic and shows that research hasn't been done. It also doesn't take into account that germany is the biggest contributor to aid directly from the EU (like the Leo 2s that Poland is expecting us to pay for now, while acting like they are "donating" tanks), lets not leave that out. Not that i'm shocked about the anti-german rhetoric, be it here or on the internet in general, but it's mind boggling that it's fuelled by "arguments" made by the polish PoS. As if one could take that party serious, or as if they actually make a valid argument. This has already been answered in this thread. Poland tends to only put formal requests in after the informal back channels have indicated that the request will be granted. The fact that that they've only recently formally requested it recently potentially/likely (depending on perspective) means that the informal talks about them were going poorly. In addition to that, the "anti German rhetoric" as you call it (which is a weird way of saying "justified" criticism) isn't just about the whole Poland sending tanks thing. Germany simply isn't doing enough. They send less per capita than most other European countries. Germany can and should send far more than it is doing currently regardless of whether Poland is sending tanks.
Yeah, but why is it always "Germany, Germany, Germany", when France (as just one example) has sent less total, less per capita and less per GDP than Germany? Or Italy? Or Spain? Or Ireland? Or Austria? Or the Netherlands? Or Belgium? Or Switzerland?
Yet no one is complaining about any of these countries, you only here about how Germany is literally the worst and never sends anything, always blocks everything.
(Source: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ )
Edit: Statistically, Germany is right in the middle with how much we supported Ukraine with stuff. Yet if you are reading this thread and other sources, you would get the impression that we basically haven't sent anything at all, and are mostly supporting Russia or whatever.
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The whole world will stop if such a decision is made, not to mention questions on training as it will take a while if they haven't been doing so on the sly that is. That would give cover to Poland, Greece etc. to provide Leopards and support etc. One also has to wonder if it gives, at least a chance, an out for Germany not to block such a move from other countries. Albeit the damage is done economically, as well as politically.
Then what type of variant of an Abram would they provide.
WASHINGTON—The Biden administration is leaning toward sending a significant number of Abrams M1 tanks to Ukraine and an announcement of the deliveries could come this week, U.S. officials said.
The announcement would be part of a broader diplomatic understanding with Germany in which Berlin would agree to send a smaller number of its own Leopard 2 tanks and would also approve the delivery of more of the German-made tanks by Poland and other nations. It would settle a trans-Atlantic disagreement over the tanks that had threatened to open fissures as the war drags into the end of its first year.
The White House declined to comment.
The deal would address a rift between the U.S. and the Germans and other Europeans over providing tanks for Ukraine during a pivotal phase of the war. Kyiv is preparing a counteroffensive to try to take back Ukrainian territory and Russia is mobilizing troops for its own operations.
The shift in the U.S. position follows a call on Jan. 17 between President Biden and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz in which Mr. Biden agreed to look into providing the Abrams tanks against the judgment of the Pentagon. A senior German official said that the issue had been the subject of intense negotiation between Washington and Berlin for more than a week and appeared to be on the way to resolution.
Military officials have argued publicly that the Abrams tanks require a substantial amount of training and logistics support and therefore aren’t appropriate for this moment in the conflict.
It comes less than a week after a contentious meeting at Ramstein base in Germany at which the U.S. and its allies failed to persuade Germany to allow other nations to send German-made tanks, exposing the first serious rift in the alliance that has supported Kyiv.
Previously, the Pentagon had ruled out providing the tanks to Ukraine, saying they were too complicated for the Ukrainians to maintain and operate. But White House and State Department officials were described as being more open to providing Abrams to break the diplomatic logjam holding up Leopard deliveries.
Some Democratic lawmakers close to the White House, such as Sen. Chris Coons of Delaware, have also urged that some Abrams be provided.
Source
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On January 25 2023 00:11 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 23:53 Mikau313 wrote:On January 24 2023 23:13 m4ini wrote:On January 24 2023 05:07 Ardias wrote:On January 24 2023 05:01 Manit0u wrote:On January 24 2023 00:52 Artesimo wrote:On January 24 2023 00:31 Manit0u wrote:
I really don't know why people are so obsessed with Leopards. I don't think UA can even use them effectively since they have no infrastructure for it (it makes it really hard to move your tanks around if your roads and bridges are not compatible with them - Poland initially had this problem with Leopards too), not even mentioning training. I assume that leopards for ukraine would also mean using maintenance facilities around ukraine for more complicated repairs. In terms of using them, the ukrainian military has demonstrated high capability to absorb all sorts of different hardware and use it. I am confident that they would manage to make good use of them. The thing is, I don't think they actually CAN use them. Tanks aren't of much use if you can't get them to where they need to be and that's the problem. If your bridges aren't wide enough or can't support the weight you can't get your tanks across. If I remember correctly Poland had this exact problem when we first got the Leopards. All we could do basically was move it between 3 bases and that's it. Big chunks of Poland were inaccessible for those tanks as there was no sufficient road/rail infrastructure and driving tanks off-road is extremely inefficient outside of battles. Well, they somehow do move 55-ton Pzh 2000 around. Erm, yeah. It's considerably easier to find routes for a vehicle that has 18-41 miles range (depending on ammo), than for a frontline combat vehicle. And i say that as someone who has shovelled and pulled Leo 2s out of the mud (albeit 2A5 models) as well as aided in getting tracks back on - in the Sennelager area, which is considerably less marshy than most of the Ukraine. Of course, the Chally 2 will struggle even more. In regards to the general topic, it's sad to see how many people fall for the propaganda machine of the polish PoS, arguing as if Germany is actually blocking the transport of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine when there haven't even been requests made. To be clear: only today the request came in. There was nothing to block prior to this morning (indeed, germany did say that they wouldn't stay in the way if that request was made weeks ago). If you want to talk about dragging feet, ask why Poland only just now sent a request, while ramping up the anti-germany rhetoric. Falling for the most obvious and lame populist election-strategy is just pathetic.
Why's no one wondering why those requests never came in until today, while already bashing germany over weeks for blocking these requests, while posturing about how that decision wouldn't matter anyway?And why are we talking like it's Poland sending Leo 2s anyway, considering they expect the EU to pay for them? https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/Here. Yes, germany could do more, i'm not arguing that. But to argue like they're doing nothing/barely anything is just pathetic and shows that research hasn't been done. It also doesn't take into account that germany is the biggest contributor to aid directly from the EU (like the Leo 2s that Poland is expecting us to pay for now, while acting like they are "donating" tanks), lets not leave that out. Not that i'm shocked about the anti-german rhetoric, be it here or on the internet in general, but it's mind boggling that it's fuelled by "arguments" made by the polish PoS. As if one could take that party serious, or as if they actually make a valid argument. This has already been answered in this thread. Poland tends to only put formal requests in after the informal back channels have indicated that the request will be granted. The fact that that they've only recently formally requested it recently potentially/likely (depending on perspective) means that the informal talks about them were going poorly. In addition to that, the "anti German rhetoric" as you call it (which is a weird way of saying "justified" criticism) isn't just about the whole Poland sending tanks thing. Germany simply isn't doing enough. They send less per capita than most other European countries. Germany can and should send far more than it is doing currently regardless of whether Poland is sending tanks. Yeah, but why is it always "Germany, Germany, Germany", when France (as just one example) has sent less total, less per capita and less per GDP than Germany? Or Italy? Or Spain? Or Ireland? Or Austria? Or the Netherlands? Or Belgium? Or Switzerland? Yet no one is complaining about any of these countries, you only here about how Germany is literally the worst and never sends anything, always blocks everything. (Source: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ ) Edit: Statistically, Germany is right in the middle with how much we supported Ukraine with stuff. Yet if you are reading this thread and other sources, you would get the impression that we basically haven't sent anything at all, and are mostly supporting Russia or whatever.
As swiss i can assure you, that we are basically Putin himself for trying to stay somewhat neutral by not allowing arms/ammo being delivered to Ukraine. If you look for it you will find people bitch and moan about it a plenty.
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On January 25 2023 00:27 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2023 00:11 Simberto wrote:On January 24 2023 23:53 Mikau313 wrote:On January 24 2023 23:13 m4ini wrote:On January 24 2023 05:07 Ardias wrote:On January 24 2023 05:01 Manit0u wrote:On January 24 2023 00:52 Artesimo wrote:On January 24 2023 00:31 Manit0u wrote:
I really don't know why people are so obsessed with Leopards. I don't think UA can even use them effectively since they have no infrastructure for it (it makes it really hard to move your tanks around if your roads and bridges are not compatible with them - Poland initially had this problem with Leopards too), not even mentioning training. I assume that leopards for ukraine would also mean using maintenance facilities around ukraine for more complicated repairs. In terms of using them, the ukrainian military has demonstrated high capability to absorb all sorts of different hardware and use it. I am confident that they would manage to make good use of them. The thing is, I don't think they actually CAN use them. Tanks aren't of much use if you can't get them to where they need to be and that's the problem. If your bridges aren't wide enough or can't support the weight you can't get your tanks across. If I remember correctly Poland had this exact problem when we first got the Leopards. All we could do basically was move it between 3 bases and that's it. Big chunks of Poland were inaccessible for those tanks as there was no sufficient road/rail infrastructure and driving tanks off-road is extremely inefficient outside of battles. Well, they somehow do move 55-ton Pzh 2000 around. Erm, yeah. It's considerably easier to find routes for a vehicle that has 18-41 miles range (depending on ammo), than for a frontline combat vehicle. And i say that as someone who has shovelled and pulled Leo 2s out of the mud (albeit 2A5 models) as well as aided in getting tracks back on - in the Sennelager area, which is considerably less marshy than most of the Ukraine. Of course, the Chally 2 will struggle even more. In regards to the general topic, it's sad to see how many people fall for the propaganda machine of the polish PoS, arguing as if Germany is actually blocking the transport of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine when there haven't even been requests made. To be clear: only today the request came in. There was nothing to block prior to this morning (indeed, germany did say that they wouldn't stay in the way if that request was made weeks ago). If you want to talk about dragging feet, ask why Poland only just now sent a request, while ramping up the anti-germany rhetoric. Falling for the most obvious and lame populist election-strategy is just pathetic.
Why's no one wondering why those requests never came in until today, while already bashing germany over weeks for blocking these requests, while posturing about how that decision wouldn't matter anyway?And why are we talking like it's Poland sending Leo 2s anyway, considering they expect the EU to pay for them? https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/Here. Yes, germany could do more, i'm not arguing that. But to argue like they're doing nothing/barely anything is just pathetic and shows that research hasn't been done. It also doesn't take into account that germany is the biggest contributor to aid directly from the EU (like the Leo 2s that Poland is expecting us to pay for now, while acting like they are "donating" tanks), lets not leave that out. Not that i'm shocked about the anti-german rhetoric, be it here or on the internet in general, but it's mind boggling that it's fuelled by "arguments" made by the polish PoS. As if one could take that party serious, or as if they actually make a valid argument. This has already been answered in this thread. Poland tends to only put formal requests in after the informal back channels have indicated that the request will be granted. The fact that that they've only recently formally requested it recently potentially/likely (depending on perspective) means that the informal talks about them were going poorly. In addition to that, the "anti German rhetoric" as you call it (which is a weird way of saying "justified" criticism) isn't just about the whole Poland sending tanks thing. Germany simply isn't doing enough. They send less per capita than most other European countries. Germany can and should send far more than it is doing currently regardless of whether Poland is sending tanks. Yeah, but why is it always "Germany, Germany, Germany", when France (as just one example) has sent less total, less per capita and less per GDP than Germany? Or Italy? Or Spain? Or Ireland? Or Austria? Or the Netherlands? Or Belgium? Or Switzerland? Yet no one is complaining about any of these countries, you only here about how Germany is literally the worst and never sends anything, always blocks everything. (Source: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ ) Edit: Statistically, Germany is right in the middle with how much we supported Ukraine with stuff. Yet if you are reading this thread and other sources, you would get the impression that we basically haven't sent anything at all, and are mostly supporting Russia or whatever. As swiss i can assure you, that we are basically Putin himself for trying to stay somewhat neutral by not allowing arms/ammo being delivered to Ukraine. If you look for it you will find people bitch and moan about it a plenty.
I get that the Swiss are neutral since god knows when. I don't get why other countries would ever procure military materiel from Switzerland. And I don't get calling it "bitch and moan" to people asking for help to protect Ukrainian civilians from air strikes using Swiss-made Gepard ammo.
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On January 25 2023 00:11 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 23:53 Mikau313 wrote:On January 24 2023 23:13 m4ini wrote:On January 24 2023 05:07 Ardias wrote:On January 24 2023 05:01 Manit0u wrote:On January 24 2023 00:52 Artesimo wrote:On January 24 2023 00:31 Manit0u wrote:
I really don't know why people are so obsessed with Leopards. I don't think UA can even use them effectively since they have no infrastructure for it (it makes it really hard to move your tanks around if your roads and bridges are not compatible with them - Poland initially had this problem with Leopards too), not even mentioning training. I assume that leopards for ukraine would also mean using maintenance facilities around ukraine for more complicated repairs. In terms of using them, the ukrainian military has demonstrated high capability to absorb all sorts of different hardware and use it. I am confident that they would manage to make good use of them. The thing is, I don't think they actually CAN use them. Tanks aren't of much use if you can't get them to where they need to be and that's the problem. If your bridges aren't wide enough or can't support the weight you can't get your tanks across. If I remember correctly Poland had this exact problem when we first got the Leopards. All we could do basically was move it between 3 bases and that's it. Big chunks of Poland were inaccessible for those tanks as there was no sufficient road/rail infrastructure and driving tanks off-road is extremely inefficient outside of battles. Well, they somehow do move 55-ton Pzh 2000 around. Erm, yeah. It's considerably easier to find routes for a vehicle that has 18-41 miles range (depending on ammo), than for a frontline combat vehicle. And i say that as someone who has shovelled and pulled Leo 2s out of the mud (albeit 2A5 models) as well as aided in getting tracks back on - in the Sennelager area, which is considerably less marshy than most of the Ukraine. Of course, the Chally 2 will struggle even more. In regards to the general topic, it's sad to see how many people fall for the propaganda machine of the polish PoS, arguing as if Germany is actually blocking the transport of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine when there haven't even been requests made. To be clear: only today the request came in. There was nothing to block prior to this morning (indeed, germany did say that they wouldn't stay in the way if that request was made weeks ago). If you want to talk about dragging feet, ask why Poland only just now sent a request, while ramping up the anti-germany rhetoric. Falling for the most obvious and lame populist election-strategy is just pathetic.
Why's no one wondering why those requests never came in until today, while already bashing germany over weeks for blocking these requests, while posturing about how that decision wouldn't matter anyway?And why are we talking like it's Poland sending Leo 2s anyway, considering they expect the EU to pay for them? https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/Here. Yes, germany could do more, i'm not arguing that. But to argue like they're doing nothing/barely anything is just pathetic and shows that research hasn't been done. It also doesn't take into account that germany is the biggest contributor to aid directly from the EU (like the Leo 2s that Poland is expecting us to pay for now, while acting like they are "donating" tanks), lets not leave that out. Not that i'm shocked about the anti-german rhetoric, be it here or on the internet in general, but it's mind boggling that it's fuelled by "arguments" made by the polish PoS. As if one could take that party serious, or as if they actually make a valid argument. This has already been answered in this thread. Poland tends to only put formal requests in after the informal back channels have indicated that the request will be granted. The fact that that they've only recently formally requested it recently potentially/likely (depending on perspective) means that the informal talks about them were going poorly. In addition to that, the "anti German rhetoric" as you call it (which is a weird way of saying "justified" criticism) isn't just about the whole Poland sending tanks thing. Germany simply isn't doing enough. They send less per capita than most other European countries. Germany can and should send far more than it is doing currently regardless of whether Poland is sending tanks. Yeah, but why is it always "Germany, Germany, Germany", when France (as just one example) has sent less total, less per capita and less per GDP than Germany? Or Italy? Or Spain? Or Ireland? Or Austria? Or the Netherlands? Or Belgium? Or Switzerland? Yet no one is complaining about any of these countries, you only here about how Germany is literally the worst and never sends anything, always blocks everything. (Source: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ ) Edit: Statistically, Germany is right in the middle with how much we supported Ukraine with stuff. Yet if you are reading this thread and other sources, you would get the impression that we basically haven't sent anything at all, and are mostly supporting Russia or whatever.
Those countries are also getting criticised though, have you not read this thread and/or the news whenever Macron opened his mouth?
Yet no one is complaining about any of these countries, you only here about how Germany is literally the worst and never sends anything, always blocks everything.
This is only true if you go out of your way to avoid reading the criticism of other countries who also aren't contributing enough. This victim complex really isn't cute from the country that likes to position itself as the leader of the EU/Europe. You don't get to do that and then hide whenever the EU needs to step up.
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On January 25 2023 00:58 Mikau313 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2023 00:11 Simberto wrote:On January 24 2023 23:53 Mikau313 wrote:On January 24 2023 23:13 m4ini wrote:On January 24 2023 05:07 Ardias wrote:On January 24 2023 05:01 Manit0u wrote:On January 24 2023 00:52 Artesimo wrote:On January 24 2023 00:31 Manit0u wrote:
I really don't know why people are so obsessed with Leopards. I don't think UA can even use them effectively since they have no infrastructure for it (it makes it really hard to move your tanks around if your roads and bridges are not compatible with them - Poland initially had this problem with Leopards too), not even mentioning training. I assume that leopards for ukraine would also mean using maintenance facilities around ukraine for more complicated repairs. In terms of using them, the ukrainian military has demonstrated high capability to absorb all sorts of different hardware and use it. I am confident that they would manage to make good use of them. The thing is, I don't think they actually CAN use them. Tanks aren't of much use if you can't get them to where they need to be and that's the problem. If your bridges aren't wide enough or can't support the weight you can't get your tanks across. If I remember correctly Poland had this exact problem when we first got the Leopards. All we could do basically was move it between 3 bases and that's it. Big chunks of Poland were inaccessible for those tanks as there was no sufficient road/rail infrastructure and driving tanks off-road is extremely inefficient outside of battles. Well, they somehow do move 55-ton Pzh 2000 around. Erm, yeah. It's considerably easier to find routes for a vehicle that has 18-41 miles range (depending on ammo), than for a frontline combat vehicle. And i say that as someone who has shovelled and pulled Leo 2s out of the mud (albeit 2A5 models) as well as aided in getting tracks back on - in the Sennelager area, which is considerably less marshy than most of the Ukraine. Of course, the Chally 2 will struggle even more. In regards to the general topic, it's sad to see how many people fall for the propaganda machine of the polish PoS, arguing as if Germany is actually blocking the transport of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine when there haven't even been requests made. To be clear: only today the request came in. There was nothing to block prior to this morning (indeed, germany did say that they wouldn't stay in the way if that request was made weeks ago). If you want to talk about dragging feet, ask why Poland only just now sent a request, while ramping up the anti-germany rhetoric. Falling for the most obvious and lame populist election-strategy is just pathetic.
Why's no one wondering why those requests never came in until today, while already bashing germany over weeks for blocking these requests, while posturing about how that decision wouldn't matter anyway?And why are we talking like it's Poland sending Leo 2s anyway, considering they expect the EU to pay for them? https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/Here. Yes, germany could do more, i'm not arguing that. But to argue like they're doing nothing/barely anything is just pathetic and shows that research hasn't been done. It also doesn't take into account that germany is the biggest contributor to aid directly from the EU (like the Leo 2s that Poland is expecting us to pay for now, while acting like they are "donating" tanks), lets not leave that out. Not that i'm shocked about the anti-german rhetoric, be it here or on the internet in general, but it's mind boggling that it's fuelled by "arguments" made by the polish PoS. As if one could take that party serious, or as if they actually make a valid argument. This has already been answered in this thread. Poland tends to only put formal requests in after the informal back channels have indicated that the request will be granted. The fact that that they've only recently formally requested it recently potentially/likely (depending on perspective) means that the informal talks about them were going poorly. In addition to that, the "anti German rhetoric" as you call it (which is a weird way of saying "justified" criticism) isn't just about the whole Poland sending tanks thing. Germany simply isn't doing enough. They send less per capita than most other European countries. Germany can and should send far more than it is doing currently regardless of whether Poland is sending tanks. Yeah, but why is it always "Germany, Germany, Germany", when France (as just one example) has sent less total, less per capita and less per GDP than Germany? Or Italy? Or Spain? Or Ireland? Or Austria? Or the Netherlands? Or Belgium? Or Switzerland? Yet no one is complaining about any of these countries, you only here about how Germany is literally the worst and never sends anything, always blocks everything. (Source: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ ) Edit: Statistically, Germany is right in the middle with how much we supported Ukraine with stuff. Yet if you are reading this thread and other sources, you would get the impression that we basically haven't sent anything at all, and are mostly supporting Russia or whatever. Those countries are also getting criticised though, have you not read this thread and/or the news whenever Macron opened his mouth? Show nested quote +
Yet no one is complaining about any of these countries, you only here about how Germany is literally the worst and never sends anything, always blocks everything.
This is only true if you go out of your way to avoid reading the criticism of other countries who also aren't contributing enough. This victim complex really isn't cute from the country that likes to position itself as the leader of the EU/Europe. You don't get to do that and then hide whenever the EU needs to step up.
Is that so? I have been regularly following this thread. I don't remember criticism of any other country on the level and with anything like the frequency with which Germany is getting critized here. Of course, i might be mistaken with this impression, but i don't see an easy way of checking without going through 300 pages of thread, for which my time is too valuable.
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On January 25 2023 01:37 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2023 00:58 Mikau313 wrote:On January 25 2023 00:11 Simberto wrote:On January 24 2023 23:53 Mikau313 wrote:On January 24 2023 23:13 m4ini wrote:On January 24 2023 05:07 Ardias wrote:On January 24 2023 05:01 Manit0u wrote:On January 24 2023 00:52 Artesimo wrote:On January 24 2023 00:31 Manit0u wrote:
I really don't know why people are so obsessed with Leopards. I don't think UA can even use them effectively since they have no infrastructure for it (it makes it really hard to move your tanks around if your roads and bridges are not compatible with them - Poland initially had this problem with Leopards too), not even mentioning training. I assume that leopards for ukraine would also mean using maintenance facilities around ukraine for more complicated repairs. In terms of using them, the ukrainian military has demonstrated high capability to absorb all sorts of different hardware and use it. I am confident that they would manage to make good use of them. The thing is, I don't think they actually CAN use them. Tanks aren't of much use if you can't get them to where they need to be and that's the problem. If your bridges aren't wide enough or can't support the weight you can't get your tanks across. If I remember correctly Poland had this exact problem when we first got the Leopards. All we could do basically was move it between 3 bases and that's it. Big chunks of Poland were inaccessible for those tanks as there was no sufficient road/rail infrastructure and driving tanks off-road is extremely inefficient outside of battles. Well, they somehow do move 55-ton Pzh 2000 around. Erm, yeah. It's considerably easier to find routes for a vehicle that has 18-41 miles range (depending on ammo), than for a frontline combat vehicle. And i say that as someone who has shovelled and pulled Leo 2s out of the mud (albeit 2A5 models) as well as aided in getting tracks back on - in the Sennelager area, which is considerably less marshy than most of the Ukraine. Of course, the Chally 2 will struggle even more. In regards to the general topic, it's sad to see how many people fall for the propaganda machine of the polish PoS, arguing as if Germany is actually blocking the transport of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine when there haven't even been requests made. To be clear: only today the request came in. There was nothing to block prior to this morning (indeed, germany did say that they wouldn't stay in the way if that request was made weeks ago). If you want to talk about dragging feet, ask why Poland only just now sent a request, while ramping up the anti-germany rhetoric. Falling for the most obvious and lame populist election-strategy is just pathetic.
Why's no one wondering why those requests never came in until today, while already bashing germany over weeks for blocking these requests, while posturing about how that decision wouldn't matter anyway?And why are we talking like it's Poland sending Leo 2s anyway, considering they expect the EU to pay for them? https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/Here. Yes, germany could do more, i'm not arguing that. But to argue like they're doing nothing/barely anything is just pathetic and shows that research hasn't been done. It also doesn't take into account that germany is the biggest contributor to aid directly from the EU (like the Leo 2s that Poland is expecting us to pay for now, while acting like they are "donating" tanks), lets not leave that out. Not that i'm shocked about the anti-german rhetoric, be it here or on the internet in general, but it's mind boggling that it's fuelled by "arguments" made by the polish PoS. As if one could take that party serious, or as if they actually make a valid argument. This has already been answered in this thread. Poland tends to only put formal requests in after the informal back channels have indicated that the request will be granted. The fact that that they've only recently formally requested it recently potentially/likely (depending on perspective) means that the informal talks about them were going poorly. In addition to that, the "anti German rhetoric" as you call it (which is a weird way of saying "justified" criticism) isn't just about the whole Poland sending tanks thing. Germany simply isn't doing enough. They send less per capita than most other European countries. Germany can and should send far more than it is doing currently regardless of whether Poland is sending tanks. Yeah, but why is it always "Germany, Germany, Germany", when France (as just one example) has sent less total, less per capita and less per GDP than Germany? Or Italy? Or Spain? Or Ireland? Or Austria? Or the Netherlands? Or Belgium? Or Switzerland? Yet no one is complaining about any of these countries, you only here about how Germany is literally the worst and never sends anything, always blocks everything. (Source: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ ) Edit: Statistically, Germany is right in the middle with how much we supported Ukraine with stuff. Yet if you are reading this thread and other sources, you would get the impression that we basically haven't sent anything at all, and are mostly supporting Russia or whatever. Those countries are also getting criticised though, have you not read this thread and/or the news whenever Macron opened his mouth?
Yet no one is complaining about any of these countries, you only here about how Germany is literally the worst and never sends anything, always blocks everything.
This is only true if you go out of your way to avoid reading the criticism of other countries who also aren't contributing enough. This victim complex really isn't cute from the country that likes to position itself as the leader of the EU/Europe. You don't get to do that and then hide whenever the EU needs to step up. Is that so? I have been regularly following this thread. I don't remember criticism of any other country on the level and with anything like the frequency with which Germany is getting critized here. Of course, i might be mistaken with this impression, but i don't see an easy way of checking without going through 300 pages of thread, for which my time is too valuable.
Macron got criticized just as much for his soft-on-Russia stance early during the war. The man was delusional about peace talks with Putin, and people were bashing him for it.
The main factor that gets them the spotlight is them stepping into the spotlight first. People then notice them and criticize their faults. First Macron stepped in and it was his turn, then Scholz followed so now it's his turn.
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On January 25 2023 00:11 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 23:53 Mikau313 wrote:On January 24 2023 23:13 m4ini wrote:On January 24 2023 05:07 Ardias wrote:On January 24 2023 05:01 Manit0u wrote:On January 24 2023 00:52 Artesimo wrote:On January 24 2023 00:31 Manit0u wrote:
I really don't know why people are so obsessed with Leopards. I don't think UA can even use them effectively since they have no infrastructure for it (it makes it really hard to move your tanks around if your roads and bridges are not compatible with them - Poland initially had this problem with Leopards too), not even mentioning training. I assume that leopards for ukraine would also mean using maintenance facilities around ukraine for more complicated repairs. In terms of using them, the ukrainian military has demonstrated high capability to absorb all sorts of different hardware and use it. I am confident that they would manage to make good use of them. The thing is, I don't think they actually CAN use them. Tanks aren't of much use if you can't get them to where they need to be and that's the problem. If your bridges aren't wide enough or can't support the weight you can't get your tanks across. If I remember correctly Poland had this exact problem when we first got the Leopards. All we could do basically was move it between 3 bases and that's it. Big chunks of Poland were inaccessible for those tanks as there was no sufficient road/rail infrastructure and driving tanks off-road is extremely inefficient outside of battles. Well, they somehow do move 55-ton Pzh 2000 around. Erm, yeah. It's considerably easier to find routes for a vehicle that has 18-41 miles range (depending on ammo), than for a frontline combat vehicle. And i say that as someone who has shovelled and pulled Leo 2s out of the mud (albeit 2A5 models) as well as aided in getting tracks back on - in the Sennelager area, which is considerably less marshy than most of the Ukraine. Of course, the Chally 2 will struggle even more. In regards to the general topic, it's sad to see how many people fall for the propaganda machine of the polish PoS, arguing as if Germany is actually blocking the transport of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine when there haven't even been requests made. To be clear: only today the request came in. There was nothing to block prior to this morning (indeed, germany did say that they wouldn't stay in the way if that request was made weeks ago). If you want to talk about dragging feet, ask why Poland only just now sent a request, while ramping up the anti-germany rhetoric. Falling for the most obvious and lame populist election-strategy is just pathetic.
Why's no one wondering why those requests never came in until today, while already bashing germany over weeks for blocking these requests, while posturing about how that decision wouldn't matter anyway?And why are we talking like it's Poland sending Leo 2s anyway, considering they expect the EU to pay for them? https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/Here. Yes, germany could do more, i'm not arguing that. But to argue like they're doing nothing/barely anything is just pathetic and shows that research hasn't been done. It also doesn't take into account that germany is the biggest contributor to aid directly from the EU (like the Leo 2s that Poland is expecting us to pay for now, while acting like they are "donating" tanks), lets not leave that out. Not that i'm shocked about the anti-german rhetoric, be it here or on the internet in general, but it's mind boggling that it's fuelled by "arguments" made by the polish PoS. As if one could take that party serious, or as if they actually make a valid argument. This has already been answered in this thread. Poland tends to only put formal requests in after the informal back channels have indicated that the request will be granted. The fact that that they've only recently formally requested it recently potentially/likely (depending on perspective) means that the informal talks about them were going poorly. In addition to that, the "anti German rhetoric" as you call it (which is a weird way of saying "justified" criticism) isn't just about the whole Poland sending tanks thing. Germany simply isn't doing enough. They send less per capita than most other European countries. Germany can and should send far more than it is doing currently regardless of whether Poland is sending tanks. Yeah, but why is it always "Germany, Germany, Germany", when France (as just one example) has sent less total, less per capita and less per GDP than Germany? Or Italy? Or Spain? Or Ireland? Or Austria? Or the Netherlands? Or Belgium? Or Switzerland? Yet no one is complaining about any of these countries, you only here about how Germany is literally the worst and never sends anything, always blocks everything. (Source: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ ) Edit: Statistically, Germany is right in the middle with how much we supported Ukraine with stuff. Yet if you are reading this thread and other sources, you would get the impression that we basically haven't sent anything at all, and are mostly supporting Russia or whatever.
Isn't IFW Kiel relying on only disclosed information and including pledges? According to various OSINT channels, the aid provided by Poland is double that reported by IFW. At the same time, Germany made many commitments that it did not deliver yet. Then you have countries like Italy or France, which rarely make their aid public. While it's good to track aid provided various countries, I'm not sure if their methodology lends itself to making country vs. country comparisons.
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Germany to announce Tank deliveries to Ukraine shortly.
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It happened. Glad to see it and I will stop ragging on Scholz for finally relenting. Going to dump a bunch of updates about supplies because there are a lot of them today with a lot of good for Ukraine:
+ Show Spoiler +
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YES! Finally! This might be the best news I've read this new year.
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On January 25 2023 01:37 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2023 00:58 Mikau313 wrote:On January 25 2023 00:11 Simberto wrote:On January 24 2023 23:53 Mikau313 wrote:On January 24 2023 23:13 m4ini wrote:On January 24 2023 05:07 Ardias wrote:On January 24 2023 05:01 Manit0u wrote:On January 24 2023 00:52 Artesimo wrote:On January 24 2023 00:31 Manit0u wrote:
I really don't know why people are so obsessed with Leopards. I don't think UA can even use them effectively since they have no infrastructure for it (it makes it really hard to move your tanks around if your roads and bridges are not compatible with them - Poland initially had this problem with Leopards too), not even mentioning training. I assume that leopards for ukraine would also mean using maintenance facilities around ukraine for more complicated repairs. In terms of using them, the ukrainian military has demonstrated high capability to absorb all sorts of different hardware and use it. I am confident that they would manage to make good use of them. The thing is, I don't think they actually CAN use them. Tanks aren't of much use if you can't get them to where they need to be and that's the problem. If your bridges aren't wide enough or can't support the weight you can't get your tanks across. If I remember correctly Poland had this exact problem when we first got the Leopards. All we could do basically was move it between 3 bases and that's it. Big chunks of Poland were inaccessible for those tanks as there was no sufficient road/rail infrastructure and driving tanks off-road is extremely inefficient outside of battles. Well, they somehow do move 55-ton Pzh 2000 around. Erm, yeah. It's considerably easier to find routes for a vehicle that has 18-41 miles range (depending on ammo), than for a frontline combat vehicle. And i say that as someone who has shovelled and pulled Leo 2s out of the mud (albeit 2A5 models) as well as aided in getting tracks back on - in the Sennelager area, which is considerably less marshy than most of the Ukraine. Of course, the Chally 2 will struggle even more. In regards to the general topic, it's sad to see how many people fall for the propaganda machine of the polish PoS, arguing as if Germany is actually blocking the transport of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine when there haven't even been requests made. To be clear: only today the request came in. There was nothing to block prior to this morning (indeed, germany did say that they wouldn't stay in the way if that request was made weeks ago). If you want to talk about dragging feet, ask why Poland only just now sent a request, while ramping up the anti-germany rhetoric. Falling for the most obvious and lame populist election-strategy is just pathetic.
Why's no one wondering why those requests never came in until today, while already bashing germany over weeks for blocking these requests, while posturing about how that decision wouldn't matter anyway?And why are we talking like it's Poland sending Leo 2s anyway, considering they expect the EU to pay for them? https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/Here. Yes, germany could do more, i'm not arguing that. But to argue like they're doing nothing/barely anything is just pathetic and shows that research hasn't been done. It also doesn't take into account that germany is the biggest contributor to aid directly from the EU (like the Leo 2s that Poland is expecting us to pay for now, while acting like they are "donating" tanks), lets not leave that out. Not that i'm shocked about the anti-german rhetoric, be it here or on the internet in general, but it's mind boggling that it's fuelled by "arguments" made by the polish PoS. As if one could take that party serious, or as if they actually make a valid argument. This has already been answered in this thread. Poland tends to only put formal requests in after the informal back channels have indicated that the request will be granted. The fact that that they've only recently formally requested it recently potentially/likely (depending on perspective) means that the informal talks about them were going poorly. In addition to that, the "anti German rhetoric" as you call it (which is a weird way of saying "justified" criticism) isn't just about the whole Poland sending tanks thing. Germany simply isn't doing enough. They send less per capita than most other European countries. Germany can and should send far more than it is doing currently regardless of whether Poland is sending tanks. Yeah, but why is it always "Germany, Germany, Germany", when France (as just one example) has sent less total, less per capita and less per GDP than Germany? Or Italy? Or Spain? Or Ireland? Or Austria? Or the Netherlands? Or Belgium? Or Switzerland? Yet no one is complaining about any of these countries, you only here about how Germany is literally the worst and never sends anything, always blocks everything. (Source: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ ) Edit: Statistically, Germany is right in the middle with how much we supported Ukraine with stuff. Yet if you are reading this thread and other sources, you would get the impression that we basically haven't sent anything at all, and are mostly supporting Russia or whatever. Those countries are also getting criticised though, have you not read this thread and/or the news whenever Macron opened his mouth?
Yet no one is complaining about any of these countries, you only here about how Germany is literally the worst and never sends anything, always blocks everything.
This is only true if you go out of your way to avoid reading the criticism of other countries who also aren't contributing enough. This victim complex really isn't cute from the country that likes to position itself as the leader of the EU/Europe. You don't get to do that and then hide whenever the EU needs to step up. Is that so? I have been regularly following this thread. I don't remember criticism of any other country on the level and with anything like the frequency with which Germany is getting critized here. Of course, i might be mistaken with this impression, but i don't see an easy way of checking without going through 300 pages of thread, for which my time is too valuable. As others have said, countries get blasted as well when they come up. The difference is that no one talks about France unless Macron opens his mouth for anther Chamberlain impression.
Germany is a lot more in the news because its not just when something happens in Germany but because other countries, like Poland, bring up Germany not letting them send the stuff they want to send.
If someone was openly complaining about Switzerland not allowing them to send supplies every week then Switzerland would be getting yelled as just as much.
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Ukraine I need tanks.
NATO We don't want to give you any tanks since that would be an escalation.
USA I'm not sending any tanks. Besides my tanks were designed for fighting on the steps of eastern Europe so they are going to be completely worthless in this situation.
France I'm giving you some totally not tanks. Only for scouting. No escalation here.
UK Well I don't give a shit what Russia thinks so I will give an insignificant amount of tanks. So basically no escalation, nothing to be alarmed about.
Poland: I want to give tanks if someone can give them with me but no one wants too so no escalation here either.
Finland: I can give some tanks with you but I'm a small insignificant country so it's very non threatening.
Poland: Besides Germany who "loves Russia" don't let us send tanks.
Germany: Look I don't want to escalate things at all. You can send your insignificant amount of tanks I'm not sending tanks unless the US does and he doesn't want to at all.
USA God damn hippy liberal euro thrash. I guess I have no choice but to send a fuckton of tanks then. But I'm warning you that despite past excellent track records in actual wars these tanks will be completely useless for the task they were designed for so really this doesn't matter at all.
Germany Well he called me so I guess I also have to send some tanks. Unfortunately they are way to heavy and will be completely useless without the equipment for moving them around and building heavier bridges (that we sent you a couple of months ago).
Poland, Finland and the rest of Europe Aight I guess we have to send some tanks to then even though we absolutely don't want to.
UK Upstaged by flaming eurotards. I wonder if I should increase the number of challengers to a full company just to show them?
NATO So you see Ukraine and Russia. We absolutely do not want to send any tanks or heavy equipment except for the ones were send where we don't have any choice. But we don't want to. Besides they are completely useless. And we absolutely won't send another wave once training and logistics are established. So no escalation here, absolutely no threat. Please continue with the spring offensive won't be a problem.
Holland (NATO aide) Sir the training of the F16 ground teams and pilots are almost done, should I start packing up the planes we designated for transfer?
NATO Not now you dutch baffon!
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On January 25 2023 04:25 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Ukraine I need tanks.
NATO We don't want to give you any tanks since that would be an escalation.
USA I'm not sending any tanks. Besides my tanks were designed for fighting on the steps of eastern Europe so they are going to be completely worthless in this situation.
France I'm giving you some totally not tanks. Only for scouting. No escalation here.
UK Well I don't give a shit what Russia thinks so I will give an insignificant amount of tanks. So basically no escalation, nothing to be alarmed about.
Poland: I want to give tanks if someone can give them with me but no one wants too so no escalation here either.
Finland: I can give some tanks with you but I'm a small insignificant country so it's very non threatening.
Poland: Besides Germany who "loves Russia" don't let us send tanks.
Germany: Look I don't want to escalate things at all. You can send your insignificant amount of tanks I'm not sending tanks unless the US does and he doesn't want to at all.
USA God damn hippy liberal euro thrash. I guess I have no choice but to send a fuckton of tanks then. But I'm warning you that despite past excellent track records in actual wars these tanks will be completely useless for the task they were designed for so really this doesn't matter at all.
Germany Well he called me so I guess I also have to send some tanks. Unfortunately they are way to heavy and will be completely useless without the equipment for moving them around and building heavier bridges (that we sent you a couple of months ago).
Poland, Finland and the rest of Europe Aight I guess we have to send some tanks to then even though we absolutely don't want to.
UK Upstaged by flaming eurotards. I wonder if I should increase the number of challengers to a full company just to show them?
NATO So you see Ukraine and Russia. We absolutely do not want to send any tanks or heavy equipment except for the ones were send where we don't have any choice. But we don't want to. Besides they are completely useless. And we absolutely won't send another wave once training and logistics are established. So no escalation here, absolutely no threat. Please continue with the spring offensive won't be a problem.
Holland (NATO aide) Sir the training of the F16 ground teams and pilots are almost done, should I start packing up the planes we designated for transfer?
NATO Not now you dutch baffon!
On a day of good news, this summary still steals the post-of-the-day on TL. A tip of my hat to you!
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EPT
