Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 260

On October 03 2022 06:04 plasmidghost wrote:
Listening to Putin's speech on Friday was genuinely terrifying and put a lot of things in perspective for me.

I burned a lot of goodwill with other leftists by supporting Ukraine and as the war went on, it was rather unnerving how many of them outright supported genocide. Friday, Putin outright said that if he wins, me and every other trans person that happens to be subject to him will suffer immensely. I cannot for the life of me understand why so many leftists openly support an imperialist fascist like Putin just because Russia used to be the Soviet Union. As much as I wish it wasn't true, it's been gone for 30 years and the fascists and capitalists have completely taken over. I hope that every Russian soldier that willingly signed up to fight or killed or destroyed in Ukraine meets a fate worse than death.

On October 03 2022 06:56 Sermokala wrote:
You have to do some sifting between those that support the invasion and those that are just against the war in general. But those that are either justifying the invasion or blame it on anyone but Russia are the ones that are supporting an Imperial fascist like Putin.

Theres a point where being contrarian about the war and being supportive of what is happening in Ukraine. That point is blaming anyone but Putin for the war.

On October 03 2022 06:28 GreenHorizons wrote:

I'm just curious what examples of their "outright supported genocide" or "openly support an imperialist fascist like Putin" would be?

Feels like it would take some impressive mental gymnastics for anyone on the left to advocate the genocide of Ukrainians, it has been my experience that these instances are typically more reflective of unscrupulous interpretation.

The old "so you support Saddam Hussein then!?"

On October 03 2022 07:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:


a leftist supporting Putin is very mind boggling. He's been liked by parts of the far right because he's been an embodiment of some far right values, but my honest experience is that the Norwegians I know of who used to like both Trump and Putin are actually no longer fans of the latter - this invasion was too much.

Now - I know of leftists whose opposition to NATO is so staunch that they see them as a co-culprit in all of this and they don't want further NATO-expansion even in light of Russia turning genocidal towards its neighbors.

However, I know more leftists who changed their view on NATO because of this. I know many members of the 'socialist left party of Norway', a party that separated from our Labor party because of disagreement over NATO membership, who have done a quick 180 on this question since February. While I think historical opposition to NATO from a Norwegian pov (favoring a Swedish/Finnish approach) has had some merit to it (and Sweden/Finland joining NATO is also part of why this 'third way' approach of forming a common Scandinavian defense union has lost support) even though I myself have preferred NATO-membership. Many of the people in both of these camps have historically been strongly opposed to American led foreign policy and 'pax americana' - tending to have had their political awakening coincide either with Vietnam, with Latin American excursions, or with Iraq, depending on age.

That said - virtually none of these people had any love for the Soviet Union. There might have been some appreciation of Cuba, some earlier but later retracted support for other communist regimes, lots of appreciation for the initial february revolution of 1917, but the Soviet Union was very, very far from any type of leftist utopia favored by Norwegian socialists and communists (even if there were supporters of it well into the 70s). Putin's Russia doesn't even pretend - it has the same authoritarianism but without any of the idealistic or progressive aspirations (communist countries don't have a good track record with homosexuality, but they often did a better job with gender equality than comparable capitalist ones).

I hope you're confusing lack of support for NATO with support for Putin, because the concept of leftists actually supporting Putin gives me a serious headache. (I think it's fair to say that this conflict has, to some degree, forced us to choose a side, but I also think it's possible to side with Ukraine without wanting a US-dominated world.)

On October 03 2022 08:08 Manit0u wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_V_g-zEOE0

This is pretty massive if true.

On October 03 2022 07:19 GreenHorizons wrote:

There again it'd be responsible to sift through who is utilizing a dialectical materialist lens to garner a more holistic understanding of the conflict and who is adopting the reductive "good guy vs. bad guy" rendering in reverse. The latter again in my experience being more frequently assigned as a result of unscrupulous interpretation than not.

On October 03 2022 08:19 maybenexttime wrote:

Technically, Lenin replaced a democratic Russian Republic with a communist dictatorship. He's responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths (so technically better than Stalin, but by no means a good person in any sense of the word) as part of the Red Terror, used slave labour extensively and had a policy of collective punishment of families. He was better than Stalin, but that's setting the bar very low.

given the sort of shit people say about Russians / Soviet Union on a daily basis nowadays, or even before the war started.

On October 03 2022 16:07 Salazarz wrote:
Just about all the criticisms of Soviet Union I hear these days, on this site as well as places like reddit and even more 'serious' takes by journalists / academics usually completely ignore wider geopolitical context and focus on specific aspects of USSR that they deem 'bad', which is reductionist and frankly stupid.

My personal favorite is the constant decrying of the evil imperialist Soviet Union chopping up Poland alongside the Nazis that totally makes them same as Hitler in the eyes of the Polish people; when Poland itself made multiple landgrabs of its own during the interwar period and had a policy of forced 'Polonization' for its minorities that was by all accounts more oppressive than anything comparable done by Russians in the Soviet Union. Lithuanians in particular seem weirdly okay with the fact that Poland occupied key parts of Lithuania including their capital Vilnius following a sham referendum no better than the ones just carried out by Putin days ago, it's only the evil imperialist Soviet Union occupation that they're angry about, nevermind that a good third of their country's population would have grown up as Poles instead if not for that. And let's not forget Poland's role in the Sudeten crisis, where they openly supported Germany, made any notion of a Stalin-proposed Soviet-Czechoslovakia defense treaty an impossibility, and carried out another landgrab of their own when Czechoslovakia was being cut to pieces. But no, none of that matters; it's only the evil imperialist Soviet Union that we talk about, and their demonic oppression of poor, freedom-loving Polish people.

Also, saying that USSR was a 'disaster' for its people is pretty weird. Disaster compared to what? Quality of life in USSR was undeniably better than it was in Tzarist Russia. Would it be better with other leaders / government types? Maybe, maybe not -- who the fuck knows. After the revolution, Russia was a backwater mess, riddled with debts and internal strife. Whatever government took charge, would have a massive mountain to climb out of that hole. During the Cold War era, Soviet Union was, for the most part, an okay place to live. The US was obviously much more prosperous, but I think people forget just how poor and undeveloped most of the world was during that time, and even the 'good' places had plenty of harsh downturns: look up Sweden in the 70s, for example. Economics aside, the reason many older people 'miss' Soviet Union is due to a very different mentality. There was less focus on work as a means to make money and more focus on meaning and contributing to the society, which is something that modern world could use. People love to talk about NKVD and KGB, the gulags, the lack of products, etc; often quoting Soviet-era jokes like that's evidence of the points they're making. The truth is people don't usually make jokes about things that are a true danger to themselves or their families. People joked about the KGB and the empty grocery store shelves because for the most part, that wasn't something that would ever seriously bother them or anyone they personally know.

Soviet Union had plenty of flaws, but it was also a reasonably functioning society that had made a lot of positive contributions to the world. Let's not forget that many pro-working class movements internationally gained traction and concessions from their governments due to fear of communist uprisings in Western capitalist countries; the Soviets' massive contributions to sciences; or indeed their role in defeating Nazi Germany, a monster largely born out of inept diplomatic policies of the Western Allies. As it usually is, the truth isn't just black and white.

In fact, I'm fairly certain that one of the biggest reasons even the younger, educated folks in Russia put up with Putin's bullshit is because of the absolutely ridiculous anti-Russian, anti-USSR rhetoric. His talk about the West being against Russia wouldn't sound particularly unhinged to actual Russian people, given the sort of shit people say about Russians / Soviet Union on a daily basis nowadays, or even before the war started.