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On September 22 2022 02:47 npnl19 wrote: I hope you guys, have good reasons to justify nazi insignia (but there is none), or maybe just blindly follow your news agenda. You know, life,s been great, except it sucks now for everyone who has to go to war, protecting people of Donbass, and thanx your western leaders for that. Expected more from SC community. Anyway. GLHF
Lol
How can you believe such nonsense. Are you a child?
On September 22 2022 02:47 npnl19 wrote: I hope you guys, have good reasons to justify nazi insignia (but there is none), or maybe just blindly follow your news agenda. You know, life,s been great, except it sucks now for everyone who has to go to war, protecting people of Donbass, and thanx your western leaders for that. Expected more from SC community. Anyway. GLHF
I am confused - I don't think anyone here justifies the Z sign?
Ardias - could you share how the older people you know (your parents / grandparents / inlaws / etc) reacted to the news of mobilization? Are they surprised? Are they aware that its wording seems to indicate the 'partial' is only in the name?
On September 22 2022 02:47 npnl19 wrote: I hope you guys, have good reasons to justify nazi insignia (but there is none), or maybe just blindly follow your news agenda. You know, life,s been great, except it sucks now for everyone who has to go to war, protecting people of Donbass, and thanx your western leaders for that. Expected more from SC community. Anyway. GLHF
I am confused - I don't think anyone here justifies the Z sign?
Ardias - could you share how the older people you know (your parents / grandparents / inlaws / etc) reacted to the news of mobilization? Are they surprised? Are they aware that its wording seems to indicate the 'partial' is only in the name?
I think he means the wolfsangel that azov still has on their current insignia. I really wish they would stop parading that thing around and just pick a different logo... it would make it so much easier to argue that they are no longer full of right wing extremists. You commonly see their old patch as well, that one also had a black sun, which is not a great look either. Not like russian propaganda would care, but that symbol definitely has hurt them a lot here in germany.
really wish they would stop parading that thing around and just pick a different logo... it would make it so much easier to argue that they are no longer full of right wing extremists.
On September 22 2022 02:47 npnl19 wrote: I hope you guys, have good reasons to justify nazi insignia (but there is none), or maybe just blindly follow your news agenda. You know, life,s been great, except it sucks now for everyone who has to go to war, protecting people of Donbass, and thanx your western leaders for that. Expected more from SC community. Anyway. GLHF
I am confused - I don't think anyone here justifies the Z sign?
Ardias - could you share how the older people you know (your parents / grandparents / inlaws / etc) reacted to the news of mobilization? Are they surprised? Are they aware that its wording seems to indicate the 'partial' is only in the name?
I think he means the wolfsangel that azov still has on their current insignia. I really wish they would stop parading that thing around and just pick a different logo... it would make it so much easier to argue that they are no longer full of right wing extremists. You commonly see their old patch as well, that one also had a black sun, which is not a great look either. Not like russian propaganda would care, but that symbol definitely has hurt them a lot here in germany.
Everyone knows what he meant and it shouldn't be diginified with a response. They want you to talk about patches while their masters are bombing train stations and shopping centers.
On September 22 2022 02:47 npnl19 wrote: I hope you guys, have good reasons to justify nazi insignia (but there is none), or maybe just blindly follow your news agenda. You know, life,s been great, except it sucks now for everyone who has to go to war, protecting people of Donbass, and thanx your western leaders for that. Expected more from SC community. Anyway. GLHF
I am confused - I don't think anyone here justifies the Z sign?
Ardias - could you share how the older people you know (your parents / grandparents / inlaws / etc) reacted to the news of mobilization? Are they surprised? Are they aware that its wording seems to indicate the 'partial' is only in the name?
I think he means the wolfsangel that azov still has on their current insignia. I really wish they would stop parading that thing around and just pick a different logo... it would make it so much easier to argue that they are no longer full of right wing extremists. You commonly see their old patch as well, that one also had a black sun, which is not a great look either. Not like russian propaganda would care, but that symbol definitely has hurt them a lot here in germany.
There's also been at least a couple times where Ukrainian government and NATO twitter accounts have (presumably) inadvertently promoted soldiers wearing various Nazi symbols in their war propaganda.
really wish they would stop parading that thing around and just pick a different logo... it would make it so much easier to argue that they are no longer full of right wing extremists.
yeah, such a nuance, if only
I doubt it will be of much use, but here is an article that goes over the azov battalion and their connection to right wing extremism [www.washingtonpost.com]
It acknowledges their still present right wing sentiment, but also explains how they have changed. Of course there are still nazis in their ranks, and probably more so than in other parts of ukraines armed forces. Military in general is more prone to right wing sentiments, and a unit that, by all accounts, has been a neo nazi group before will attract more of those. But it is no longer what solely defines them.
There is also a good (german) report on it, that was looking at the potential risk of right wing extremists from germany signing up with azov and eventually returning back home with combat experience. It also comes to the conclusion, that you no longer can classify the azov batallion as a purely nazi organisation. You can try running it through google translate. While you might be able to cast aside the washington post article as a PR-piece, this one you can't. It is a report that is supposed to estimate the threat for german inner security that stems from the azov battalion and the people who sign up for it. [www.bundestag.de]
I leave you with this nice excerpt from it though
Die russische Regierung argumentiert, sie wolle mit ihrem völkerrechtswidrigen Angriffskrieg im Jahr 2022 eine ultranationale und rechtsextreme Gefahr, namentlich auch das „Regiment Asow“ bekämpfen. Angesichts der verheerenden Zerstörungen der zivilen Infrastruktur und der wahllosen Tötung von Zivilisten ist dies nicht einmal im Ansatz glaubhaft. Vielmehr hat die russische Führung selbst durch ihre schon 2014 völkerrechtswidrige bewaffnete Intervention und völkerrechtswidrige Besetzung beziehungsweise Abtrennung von erheblichen Teilen der souveränen Ukraine, genau dieses ultranationale Gedankengut geweckt.
Translation:
The Russian government argues that with its war of aggression in 2022, which violates international law, it wants to fight an ultra-national and right-wing extremist danger, including the "Azov regiment". Given the devastating destruction of civilian infrastructure and indiscriminate killing of civilians, this is not even remotely credible. Rather, the Russian leadership itself has awakened precisely this ultra-national body of thought, through its illegal armed intervention in 2014 and illegal occupation or separation of significant parts of the sovereign Ukraine.
really wish they would stop parading that thing around and just pick a different logo... it would make it so much easier to argue that they are no longer full of right wing extremists.
yeah, such a nuance, if only
How embarrassing this series of posts must be for you.
They want you to talk about patches while their masters are bombing train stations and shopping centers.
While Ukraine folks were bombing Donbass for 8 years, massacre people in Bucha, etc. (white patches etc.) And i guess news from certain sources are banned in your places, while i have access to your BBC CNN etc. nice democracy and freedom. Certainly i support that. lol. but im not the one who built walls.
How embarrassing this series of posts must be for you.
whatever mate, im out. those who interested in truth will google etc. and find out. it took me time myself, but at least well.. i have a clearer picture.
really wish they would stop parading that thing around and just pick a different logo... it would make it so much easier to argue that they are no longer full of right wing extremists.
They want you to talk about patches while their masters are bombing train stations and shopping centers.
While Ukraine folks were bombing Donbass for 8 years, massacre people in Bucha, etc. (white patches etc.) And i guess news from certain sources are banned in your places, while i have access to your BBC CNN etc. nice democracy and freedom. Certainly i support that. lol. but im not the one who built walls.
How embarrassing this series of posts must be for you.
whatever mate, im out. those who interested in truth will google etc. and find out. it took me time myself, but at least well.. i have a clearer picture.
The embarrassing thing isn't that you believed the lies of your state run media, that can happen to anyone of sufficiently low intelligence and education and I'll hold neither of those against you. It's that you've somehow not been able to keep track of what the current lie is. You're out of date.
In February it was Nazis in Mariupol. That was your state approved lie. Then it changed to Ukraine having a Nazi state that needed regime change. Then it changed to preventing NATO expansion. That lasted only a few weeks because of the whole Finland/Sweden situation and then it turned out that Ukraine didn't exist at all and that it was really a part of Russia all along. Then the official line was that the Russians who thought they were Ukrainians but were really Russians needed to be protected from themselves by bombing them. That wasn't super effective though because of all the bombing. Then it changed to Ukraine, which suddenly existed again, was about to attack Russia and that Russia had to attack first in self defence. And then today Putin told me that Ukraine was actually getting nukes and that Russia attacked to prevent nuclear threats.
So it's not just that you're parroting the official line, it's that you're trying to parrot the official line but you're not able to follow it. They spend all day every day telling you what the new officially approved truth is but you just can't keep up. Putin isn't going on about Azov Nazis anymore, he's now on an existential threat from nuclear Ukraine as a launching pad for the destruction of the USSR, so why are you still talking about them?
It's like if an American came in here and started insisting that Obama was going to put them all in FEMA camps. I can see how they got there, someone on infowars told them it was true and they believed it, what I can't see is how they haven't noticed that everyone stopped talking about that years ago.
I feel really sorry for the Russians who are about to get called to go to Ukraine as cannon fodder, lacking equipment, Intel, leadership and training against an experienced and highly motivated opponent with access to superior weapons. It seems like the mobilization is very unlikely to turn the war in Russia's favour, but how how many dead bodies can Putin himself survive as a leader?
Meanwhile in Europe the debate about Tanks is raging on, with Scholz seemingly outnumbered now.
It is showdown time in the German federal parliament, the Bundestag, this Thursday: Lawmakers are scheduled to debate German assistance for Ukraine. And there are indications that a majority is in favor of supplying the country with modern tanks — something that Chancellor Olaf Scholz and his Social Democrats (SPD) seem reluctant to do.
The largest opposition party in Germany, the center-right Christian Democrats (CDU), has put forward a motion for the delivery of Western-designed battle tanks and infantry fighting vehicles from industrial stocks to Ukraine.
Titled "Defending peace and freedom in Europe — Supporting Ukraine resolutely with heavy weapons now," it is put to a vote, cracks in the governing coalition could be revealed, as many deputies from the Greens and the neoliberal Free Democrats (FDP) deputies are also in favor of providing more military assistance.
In a surprise announcement, the German defense ministry said in mid-September that it would deliver 50 armored Dingo transport vehicles to Ukraine. These would offer frontline Ukrainian soldiers protection from Russian fire.
Ukraine has been calling for Western tanks to use in its fight against the Russian attackers for months. After Kyiv's most recent military successes in the country's northeast, the war is entering a new phase.
"Ukraine currently lacks the equipment to successfully carry out counterattacks, especially in the vast, spacious grassland region. That is why Ukraine is looking for so much help with battle tanks and armored personnel carriers," Nico Lange, an analyst at the Munich Security Conference and expert on Eastern Europe told DW.
The pressure on Germany to supply more heavy weapons to Ukraine has grown steadily.
But in mid-September, the Bundeswehr Inspector General Eberhard Zorn, Germany's highest-ranking soldier, downplayed Ukraine's military success in the northeast of the country in an interview with the weekly Focus news magazine. "I am cautious about using such terms," he said, referring to the Ukrainian army's counteroffensive which had been praised by the US and UK. In the same interview, Zorn warned of Russian attacks on the Baltic States or Finland.
Ben Hodges, a former commander of US forces in Europe who lives in Germany, described Zorn's statements as a "stunningly poor analysis of Russian capabilities." He said that Finland alone could crush Russian forces in their current state. And Lithuania and Poland, which share borders with the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea coast, could "smother" them "in a week." Most Western analysts agree with the US general.
Within Germany's government, the restrained Social Democrats are facing increasing pressure from their coalition partners – the Greens and Free Democrats (FDP). In an interview with the daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper,
Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock from the Greens said: "In this decisive phase which Ukraine now finds itself in, I do not consider this to be a decision that should be dragged out for a long time." She added that in any case, the delivery of "modern battle tanks" such as the Leopard 2 could only be decided collaboratively "in a coalition and internationally."
Baerbock has continually spoken out in favor of solidarity with Ukraine.
This sounds very much like a proposal by theEuropean Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR), a Berlin-based think tank, for a "Leopard 2 Plan" which is currently making the rounds in the German capital.
It recommends that European countries, which have the Leopard 2 in stock should form a group to provide Ukraine with 90 battle-ready tanks. "After supporting Ukraine's urban defensive fight and boosting its long-range strike capabilities, they should equip its armed forces for maneuver warfare. Heavy armor will be crucial in this next phase of the war," analysts Gustav Gressel, Rafael Loss, and Jana Puglierin recently wrote in a report.
They suggested that the German government should create a "consortium of European Leopard 2 users" for this purpose and explained that 12 European armies and Turkey had more than 2,000 various Leopard 2 tanks between them.
For Nico Lange from the Munich Security Conference, "an association of several European nations that have Leopard 2 battle tanks," could be a way to support Ukraine "on an equal footing" with the US. So far, Washington has delivered the most weapons to Ukraine by a large margin.
Berlin has been reluctant to provide exact figures regarding deliveries of the most modern weapons systems. In addition to 50 Dingo armored personnel carriers, Ukraine is said to have received an unspecified number of Cobra artillery radar systems and Iris-T air defense systems.
The German defense ministry was much more precise when it came to the delivery of 20 anti-aircraft "Gepard" tanks, for which Berlin received recognition from the US and Ukraine.
The Ukrainian soldiers who will operate the tanks received training in Germany over the summer. According to the ministry, the delivery of an additional 10 Gepard tanks is currently in progress.
Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht, from Olaf Scholz's Social Democrat party (SPD), has also announced that Germany will send two more Mars II multiple rocket launchers, including 200 rockets.
Germany is currently working through a list of military supplies that comprises over two dozen items. A majority will come straight from German weapons producers, not from Bundeswehr stocks. These include armored recovery vehicles, bridge-laying tanks, as well as hundreds of trucks and trailers.
According to the federal government, Germany approved arms exports to Ukraine worth more than €733 million (ca. $723 million) between January 1 and September 19 of this year.
What do people here think would happen if Putin decides he is tired of the west sending heaps of free weapons and intel to Ukraine and decides to delete say Berlin or Warsaw from the map to make a point? Personally I dont believe for a second that either France or the UK would enter a nuclear war with Russia on their own no matter what any treaties say. Meaning it would come down to Biden and only Biden. No council, no votes, just an old man deciding whether to end the world because of principle or not. It's a somewhat dark thought I guess, but I honestly wonder if he would decide to sacrifice his grandchildren (and his country) to avenge a bunch of random germans.
On September 22 2022 05:06 KlaCkoN wrote: What do people here think would happen if Putin decides he is tired of the west sending heaps of free weapons and intel to Ukraine and decides to delete say Berlin or Warsaw from the map to make a point? Personally I dont believe for a second that either France or the UK would enter a nuclear war with Russia on their own no matter what any treaties say. Meaning it would come down to Biden and only Biden. No council, no votes, just an old man deciding whether to end the world because of principle or not. It's a somewhat dark thought I guess, but I honestly wonder if he would decide to sacrifice his grandchildren (and his country) to avenge a bunch of random germans.
What, you think nothing would happen? If nukes would be used, the Bs&Cs from the ABCs would also be put to use. Human rights & the Geneva Conventions would fly right out the window.
On September 22 2022 05:06 KlaCkoN wrote: What do people here think would happen if Putin decides he is tired of the west sending heaps of free weapons and intel to Ukraine and decides to delete say Berlin or Warsaw from the map to make a point? Personally I dont believe for a second that either France or the UK would enter a nuclear war with Russia on their own no matter what any treaties say. Meaning it would come down to Biden and only Biden. No council, no votes, just an old man deciding whether to end the world because of principle or not. It's a somewhat dark thought I guess, but I honestly wonder if he would decide to sacrifice his grandchildren (and his country) to avenge a bunch of random germans.
NATO missiles would be flying before Russia finished fueling theirs. Once you hit the point of no return the best shot is to return fire immediately and in full force.
Noted mega genius Von Neumann wrote a lot about game theory with regard to MAD and it basically comes down to “if war seems possible then nukes are possible and if nukes are possible then the best option is to do a first strike and so you should first strike and they know you should first strike so they should definitely first strike before you first strike and so you know they’re going to immediately go to nukes so why haven’t you launched your nukes yet”.
The only hope is that everyone irrationally overlooks the obvious need to do a first strike and trusts that everyone else doesn’t want to kill millions. You can do the ethical irrational thing as long as you have a reasonable level of hope that everyone else does.
The moment Putin indicates that he’s willing to use nukes (and not just bullshitting) you’re on the game theory loop that you must use yours first. It doesn’t matter if he targets Berlin or Boston, it matters that he’s willing to use them. If he’s willing to use them you must first strike.
On September 22 2022 05:06 KlaCkoN wrote: What do people here think would happen if Putin decides he is tired of the west sending heaps of free weapons and intel to Ukraine and decides to delete say Berlin or Warsaw from the map to make a point? Personally I dont believe for a second that either France or the UK would enter a nuclear war with Russia on their own no matter what any treaties say. Meaning it would come down to Biden and only Biden. No council, no votes, just an old man deciding whether to end the world because of principle or not. It's a somewhat dark thought I guess, but I honestly wonder if he would decide to sacrifice his grandchildren (and his country) to avenge a bunch of random germans.
How long does it take an ICBM to reach Berlin from Russia? And how long does it take for the UK and France to recognise its going for Berlin and not them?
"I'm not attacking you, I am attacking your neighbour" requires your neighbour from being able to tell the difference before he attacks you back.
EPT
