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The string of news coming from West Bank is getting from bad to worse, this is horrific to see.
That, plus the Beirut bombings, announcement that IDF is planning a "day of war" with Hezbolah, seems like Nethyanahu's trying to cook up something in order to distract from the investigations and protests, again.
The string of news coming from West Bank is getting from bad to worse, this is horrific to see.
That, plus the Beirut bombings, announcement that IDF is planning a "day of war" with Hezbolah, seems like Nethyanahu's trying to cook up something in order to distract from the investigations and protests, again.
I was going to post a (the) Mitchel and Webb sketch in response to this but given the theme of that and the topic of this thread that might be a bit inflammatory. Still...
In yet another incident during the time of "cesefire" in Gaza, 2 boys, 11 and 8 were blown up by a drone for crossing the "yellow line" which you can know where it s by looking online, by the way.
The boys were gathering firewood because their father is in a wheelchair.
No warning shoots, not megaphone, no attempt to do anything other then shoot at these children:
Fucking heartbreaking, I hope someone is held responsible for this, if Israel did this consistently these kind of things wouldn't have kept happening...
The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
I mean the first one even has footage, and like really damn unambiguous looking footage at that.
I mean conflict is awful and horrendous stuff does happen, what makes it that much more depressing is how the response from quarters that matter is basically ‘ah don’t sweat the small stuff, how dare you scrutinise our brave guys and gals’.
It’s a pretty sick mentality, one I’ve observed in my own country in the recent past. And many others.
Of course there are many in Israeli society who are rightly horrified too, indeed plenty who are involved in activism, it just sadly seems that’s not moving the needle right now.
Not that I matter in such things, but at this stage if I read an IDF statement saying the sky was blue, I’d have to poke my head out the window just to make sure.
This feels relatively new. Before this juncture, yeah the IDF weren’t saints, but what militaries are? Atrocities did occur, but not with this real tangible air of outright impunity we’ve seen in the post October 7th conflict.
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
The IDF executes prisoners now (for a while actually if we remember the ambulance) thing. Who cares what they say?
I would care if they actually did something to prove that they are what they say they want to be. But we all know none of the soldiers who are involved in warcrimes will get more than a slap on the wrist, if that.
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
The IDF executes prisoners now (for a while actually if we remember the ambulance) thing. Who cares what they say?
I would care if they actually did something to prove that they are what they say they want to be. But we all know none of the soldiers who are involved in warcrimes will get more than a slap on the wrist, if that.
When the IDF claimed they’d fired on an aid worker vehicle, and claimed it was driving without lights on and no identifications, only for people to go dig up the bodies and there’s phone footage recovered showing the opposite, yeah kinda hard to trust em.
There’s also the small factor of a Hamas comparison being pretty irrelevant anyway. I mean one is the legitimate armed forces of a democratic state, and the other is not.
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
Not even IDF tried to spin this in this way, so congratulations on out-spinning them!
These were 8 and 11 year old boys. They were looking for firewood, they were blown up without a warning.
Look at how threatening they look, of course IDF had no other recourse but tho blow them up from a drone, right?
If you were the commander there, would you push this button? Would you perhaps maybe try to scare them away, maybe a few shoots in the air before sending explosive ordinance their way?
Remember when the then Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said, "This is a war between the children of light and the children of darkness." He may have meant literal children, considering how many children have been killed.
It’s a very simple situation. Even if you’re allowed to shoot children under whatever arbitrary rules of engagement you’ve been given, you don’t shoot the children. My son acts in a suspicious way all the time but I don’t shoot him, and it’s not out of fear of legal consequences. Don’t shoot children. Even if there’s a yellow line and someone says you’re allowed to shoot people who cross it. Just because you’re allowed to by your boss doesn’t mean you’re allowed to by the basic rules of humanity we all live by.
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
Not even IDF tried to spin this in this way, so congratulations on out-spinning them!
These were 8 and 11 year old boys. They were looking for firewood, they were blown up without a warning.
Look at how threatening they look, of course IDF had no other recourse but tho blow them up from a drone, right?
If you were the commander there, would you push this button? Would you perhaps maybe try to scare them away, maybe a few shoots in the air before sending explosive ordinance their way?
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
The IDF executes prisoners now (for a while actually if we remember the ambulance) thing. Who cares what they say?
I would care if they actually did something to prove that they are what they say they want to be. But we all know none of the soldiers who are involved in warcrimes will get more than a slap on the wrist, if that.
Against maybe France or Spain, I'd lean more towards your same prejudices. But this is Hamas. They have child soldiers. They have a history. So when Reuters finds an uncle that says they were looking for firewood past the yellow line, I don't simply say, "It's clear that we should believe this person, since Israel is not to be trusted!"
If these were sent by Hamas to scout or plant IEDs or test a particular border section for vigilance, guess what you hear? The exact same thing. So and so relative says they were doing innocent task and bloodthirsty Israeli troops shot them dead without warning. Prejudice against one side making the claims doesn't automatically elevate the other claim.
Settling on needing more information is not some excuse to charge the other with wholesale belief in the Israeli story. More information is needed. If you're so prejudiced that you state as fact just one interviewee's testimony, then you're setting yourself up to be deceived by propaganda. If the Israeli record is mixed and bad on stuff like the ambulance shooting and WCK trucks, you should admit the Palestinian record is mixed on Hamas being caught in lies.
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
Not even IDF tried to spin this in this way, so congratulations on out-spinning them!
These were 8 and 11 year old boys. They were looking for firewood, they were blown up without a warning.
Look at how threatening they look, of course IDF had no other recourse but tho blow them up from a drone, right?
If you were the commander there, would you push this button? Would you perhaps maybe try to scare them away, maybe a few shoots in the air before sending explosive ordinance their way?
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
The IDF executes prisoners now (for a while actually if we remember the ambulance) thing. Who cares what they say?
I would care if they actually did something to prove that they are what they say they want to be. But we all know none of the soldiers who are involved in warcrimes will get more than a slap on the wrist, if that.
Against maybe France or Spain, I'd lean more towards your same prejudices. But this is Hamas. They have child soldiers. They have a history. So when Reuters finds an uncle that says they were looking for firewood past the yellow line, I don't simply say, "It's clear that we should believe this person, since Israel is not to be trusted!"
If these were sent by Hamas to scout or plant IEDs or test a particular border section for vigilance, guess what you hear? The exact same thing. So and so relative says they were doing innocent task and bloodthirsty Israeli troops shot them dead without warning. Prejudice against one side making the claims doesn't automatically elevate the other claim.
Settling on needing more information is not some excuse to charge the other with wholesale belief in the Israeli story. More information is needed. If you're so prejudiced that you state as fact just one interviewee's testimony, then you're setting yourself up to be deceived by propaganda. If the Israeli record is mixed and bad on stuff like the ambulance shooting and WCK trucks, you should admit the Palestinian record is mixed on Hamas being caught in lies.
My opinion is that historically both sides were awful assholes so sure, I can agree that both sides are awful assholes today as well. Not sure I would want my country to be on par with a terrorist organisation like Hamas but each to their own.
As for your "child soldier" justification. You realize sane adults would never, ever shoot a kid unless it was absolutely necessary. We are talking walking up to them with a bomb. Most normal soldiers wouldn't shoot a 6/11 year old even if they had a gun as long as they weren't in immediate danger. Even if they are technically the enemy you would let them go. In this case they got hit by a drone because they crossed some arbitrary line they couldn't see.
It doesn't matter if Hamas sent them there killing them is still something only a psychopath would do in that situation.
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
Not even IDF tried to spin this in this way, so congratulations on out-spinning them!
These were 8 and 11 year old boys. They were looking for firewood, they were blown up without a warning.
Look at how threatening they look, of course IDF had no other recourse but tho blow them up from a drone, right?
If you were the commander there, would you push this button? Would you perhaps maybe try to scare them away, maybe a few shoots in the air before sending explosive ordinance their way?
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
The IDF executes prisoners now (for a while actually if we remember the ambulance) thing. Who cares what they say?
I would care if they actually did something to prove that they are what they say they want to be. But we all know none of the soldiers who are involved in warcrimes will get more than a slap on the wrist, if that.
Against maybe France or Spain, I'd lean more towards your same prejudices. But this is Hamas. They have child soldiers. They have a history. So when Reuters finds an uncle that says they were looking for firewood past the yellow line, I don't simply say, "It's clear that we should believe this person, since Israel is not to be trusted!"
If these were sent by Hamas to scout or plant IEDs or test a particular border section for vigilance, guess what you hear? The exact same thing. So and so relative says they were doing innocent task and bloodthirsty Israeli troops shot them dead without warning. Prejudice against one side making the claims doesn't automatically elevate the other claim.
Settling on needing more information is not some excuse to charge the other with wholesale belief in the Israeli story. More information is needed. If you're so prejudiced that you state as fact just one interviewee's testimony, then you're setting yourself up to be deceived by propaganda. If the Israeli record is mixed and bad on stuff like the ambulance shooting and WCK trucks, you should admit the Palestinian record is mixed on Hamas being caught in lies.
You are right. There is of course only one way to solve this. You should round up all the Palestinians, and put them in camps. Make them work for their freedom, and if that doesn't work, a refreshing shower will offer a final recourse.
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
Not even IDF tried to spin this in this way, so congratulations on out-spinning them!
These were 8 and 11 year old boys. They were looking for firewood, they were blown up without a warning.
Look at how threatening they look, of course IDF had no other recourse but tho blow them up from a drone, right?
If you were the commander there, would you push this button? Would you perhaps maybe try to scare them away, maybe a few shoots in the air before sending explosive ordinance their way?
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
The IDF executes prisoners now (for a while actually if we remember the ambulance) thing. Who cares what they say?
I would care if they actually did something to prove that they are what they say they want to be. But we all know none of the soldiers who are involved in warcrimes will get more than a slap on the wrist, if that.
Against maybe France or Spain, I'd lean more towards your same prejudices. But this is Hamas. They have child soldiers. They have a history. So when Reuters finds an uncle that says they were looking for firewood past the yellow line, I don't simply say, "It's clear that we should believe this person, since Israel is not to be trusted!"
If these were sent by Hamas to scout or plant IEDs or test a particular border section for vigilance, guess what you hear? The exact same thing. So and so relative says they were doing innocent task and bloodthirsty Israeli troops shot them dead without warning. Prejudice against one side making the claims doesn't automatically elevate the other claim.
Settling on needing more information is not some excuse to charge the other with wholesale belief in the Israeli story. More information is needed. If you're so prejudiced that you state as fact just one interviewee's testimony, then you're setting yourself up to be deceived by propaganda. If the Israeli record is mixed and bad on stuff like the ambulance shooting and WCK trucks, you should admit the Palestinian record is mixed on Hamas being caught in lies.
If you’re not sure if the 11 year old is a threat you go speak to them. That’s not a situation where you shoot first and investigate later.
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
Not even IDF tried to spin this in this way, so congratulations on out-spinning them!
These were 8 and 11 year old boys. They were looking for firewood, they were blown up without a warning.
Look at how threatening they look, of course IDF had no other recourse but tho blow them up from a drone, right?
If you were the commander there, would you push this button? Would you perhaps maybe try to scare them away, maybe a few shoots in the air before sending explosive ordinance their way?
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
The IDF executes prisoners now (for a while actually if we remember the ambulance) thing. Who cares what they say?
I would care if they actually did something to prove that they are what they say they want to be. But we all know none of the soldiers who are involved in warcrimes will get more than a slap on the wrist, if that.
Against maybe France or Spain, I'd lean more towards your same prejudices. But this is Hamas. They have child soldiers. They have a history. So when Reuters finds an uncle that says they were looking for firewood past the yellow line, I don't simply say, "It's clear that we should believe this person, since Israel is not to be trusted!"
If these were sent by Hamas to scout or plant IEDs or test a particular border section for vigilance, guess what you hear? The exact same thing. So and so relative says they were doing innocent task and bloodthirsty Israeli troops shot them dead without warning. Prejudice against one side making the claims doesn't automatically elevate the other claim.
Settling on needing more information is not some excuse to charge the other with wholesale belief in the Israeli story. More information is needed. If you're so prejudiced that you state as fact just one interviewee's testimony, then you're setting yourself up to be deceived by propaganda. If the Israeli record is mixed and bad on stuff like the ambulance shooting and WCK trucks, you should admit the Palestinian record is mixed on Hamas being caught in lies.
There is no amount of prejudice where I as a soldier pulling the trigger or a commander giving an order would think that shooting or blowing up 8 and 11 year olds was an OK thing to do, those are the facts of the story, IDF is not disputing them, it's very hard to mistake kids that age with someone who could pose a threat, there are ways to disperse them without killing them, not using them is a fucked up thing to do no matter how you look at it, in my opinion.
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
Not even IDF tried to spin this in this way, so congratulations on out-spinning them!
These were 8 and 11 year old boys. They were looking for firewood, they were blown up without a warning.
Look at how threatening they look, of course IDF had no other recourse but tho blow them up from a drone, right?
If you were the commander there, would you push this button? Would you perhaps maybe try to scare them away, maybe a few shoots in the air before sending explosive ordinance their way?
On December 02 2025 02:26 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
The IDF executes prisoners now (for a while actually if we remember the ambulance) thing. Who cares what they say?
I would care if they actually did something to prove that they are what they say they want to be. But we all know none of the soldiers who are involved in warcrimes will get more than a slap on the wrist, if that.
Against maybe France or Spain, I'd lean more towards your same prejudices. But this is Hamas. They have child soldiers. They have a history. So when Reuters finds an uncle that says they were looking for firewood past the yellow line, I don't simply say, "It's clear that we should believe this person, since Israel is not to be trusted!"
If these were sent by Hamas to scout or plant IEDs or test a particular border section for vigilance, guess what you hear? The exact same thing. So and so relative says they were doing innocent task and bloodthirsty Israeli troops shot them dead without warning. Prejudice against one side making the claims doesn't automatically elevate the other claim.
Settling on needing more information is not some excuse to charge the other with wholesale belief in the Israeli story. More information is needed. If you're so prejudiced that you state as fact just one interviewee's testimony, then you're setting yourself up to be deceived by propaganda. If the Israeli record is mixed and bad on stuff like the ambulance shooting and WCK trucks, you should admit the Palestinian record is mixed on Hamas being caught in lies.
My opinion is that historically both sides were awful assholes so sure, I can agree that both sides are awful assholes today as well. Not sure I would want my country to be on par with a terrorist organisation like Hamas but each to their own.
As for your "child soldier" justification. You realize sane adults would never, ever shoot a kid unless it was absolutely necessary. We are talking walking up to them with a bomb. Most normal soldiers wouldn't shoot a 6/11 year old even if they had a gun as long as they weren't in immediate danger. Even if they are technically the enemy you would let them go. In this case they got hit by a drone because they crossed some arbitrary line they couldn't see.
It doesn't matter if Hamas sent them there killing them is still something only a psychopath would do in that situation.
The justification and context isn't in evidence! I went to the link provided and didn't see any video on (absence of) loud warnings, warning shots, or the basics of suicide bombing/guns.
So I'm fine with most of your post, including the fact that the average soldier would not shoot a kid unless there was a real threat.
Last of all I want to remind you that this is an argument on the lack of evidence, not something as clear-cut on trusting that it went exactly as some initial IDF or IAF initial statement. Just because Reuters found somebody that says firewood doesn't mean that should be stated as fact and proof of unlawful conduct. I doubt you disagree, but if you do, say so.
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
Not even IDF tried to spin this in this way, so congratulations on out-spinning them!
These were 8 and 11 year old boys. They were looking for firewood, they were blown up without a warning.
Look at how threatening they look, of course IDF had no other recourse but tho blow them up from a drone, right?
If you were the commander there, would you push this button? Would you perhaps maybe try to scare them away, maybe a few shoots in the air before sending explosive ordinance their way?
On December 02 2025 02:26 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
The IDF executes prisoners now (for a while actually if we remember the ambulance) thing. Who cares what they say?
I would care if they actually did something to prove that they are what they say they want to be. But we all know none of the soldiers who are involved in warcrimes will get more than a slap on the wrist, if that.
Against maybe France or Spain, I'd lean more towards your same prejudices. But this is Hamas. They have child soldiers. They have a history. So when Reuters finds an uncle that says they were looking for firewood past the yellow line, I don't simply say, "It's clear that we should believe this person, since Israel is not to be trusted!"
If these were sent by Hamas to scout or plant IEDs or test a particular border section for vigilance, guess what you hear? The exact same thing. So and so relative says they were doing innocent task and bloodthirsty Israeli troops shot them dead without warning. Prejudice against one side making the claims doesn't automatically elevate the other claim.
Settling on needing more information is not some excuse to charge the other with wholesale belief in the Israeli story. More information is needed. If you're so prejudiced that you state as fact just one interviewee's testimony, then you're setting yourself up to be deceived by propaganda. If the Israeli record is mixed and bad on stuff like the ambulance shooting and WCK trucks, you should admit the Palestinian record is mixed on Hamas being caught in lies.
There is no amount of prejudice where I as a soldier pulling the trigger or a commander giving an order would think that shooting or blowing up 8 and 11 year olds was an OK thing to do, those are the facts of the story, IDF is not disputing them, it's very hard to mistake kids that age with someone who could pose a threat, there are ways to disperse them without killing them, not using them is a fucked up thing to do no matter how you look at it, in my opinion.
No dispute here, so long as you admit that a bullet or bomb or grenade or IED from a child kills just like a teen or adult. The IDF could be guilty as sin in all this, and it would join cases like the ambulance convoy or WCK. I assume you are not claiming that there's an age limit above 11 to where a child soldier cannot physically pose a threat? In any case, I hope for further investigation and public accounting.
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
Not even IDF tried to spin this in this way, so congratulations on out-spinning them!
These were 8 and 11 year old boys. They were looking for firewood, they were blown up without a warning.
Look at how threatening they look, of course IDF had no other recourse but tho blow them up from a drone, right?
If you were the commander there, would you push this button? Would you perhaps maybe try to scare them away, maybe a few shoots in the air before sending explosive ordinance their way?
On December 02 2025 02:26 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On December 02 2025 01:55 dyhb wrote: The issue is the reporting. Hamas does use children. The IDF is not especially required to prove a negative --- that they weren't innocent -- or they bear the guilt. The story cites "two suspects 'conducted suspicious activities'" from the IDF. So I would imagine an equally partisan story condemning Hamas for using children to test the yellow line or plant IEDs or w/e: simply prioritizing the IDF's statement, and referring in passing to the uncle and Hamas medical officials denying it.
This is a propaganda war as much as it is a terrorist war. I try not to privilege a side when it's basic hearsay reporting. And the link doesn't sustain "no warning shoots[sic], not[sic] megaphone, no attempt to do anything other than shoot," which would actually color the story.
The IDF executes prisoners now (for a while actually if we remember the ambulance) thing. Who cares what they say?
I would care if they actually did something to prove that they are what they say they want to be. But we all know none of the soldiers who are involved in warcrimes will get more than a slap on the wrist, if that.
Against maybe France or Spain, I'd lean more towards your same prejudices. But this is Hamas. They have child soldiers. They have a history. So when Reuters finds an uncle that says they were looking for firewood past the yellow line, I don't simply say, "It's clear that we should believe this person, since Israel is not to be trusted!"
If these were sent by Hamas to scout or plant IEDs or test a particular border section for vigilance, guess what you hear? The exact same thing. So and so relative says they were doing innocent task and bloodthirsty Israeli troops shot them dead without warning. Prejudice against one side making the claims doesn't automatically elevate the other claim.
Settling on needing more information is not some excuse to charge the other with wholesale belief in the Israeli story. More information is needed. If you're so prejudiced that you state as fact just one interviewee's testimony, then you're setting yourself up to be deceived by propaganda. If the Israeli record is mixed and bad on stuff like the ambulance shooting and WCK trucks, you should admit the Palestinian record is mixed on Hamas being caught in lies.
You are right. There is of course only one way to solve this. You should round up all the Palestinians, and put them in camps. Make them work for their freedom, and if that doesn't work, a refreshing shower will offer a final recourse.
I really hope you're being extremely flippant or trolling.
It’s not about a child soldier not posing a threat. It’s about relative threat. The risk of it turning out that they were a child soldier should be less than the risk of getting it wrong. If you were right and they were a child soldier you risk possible death but if you drone strike them without checking then you should definitely kill yourself. So although it’s not an ideal situation you still don’t drone strike them, it’s too dangerous to you. The safest thing to do is investigate.
On December 02 2025 08:31 KwarK wrote: It’s not about a child soldier not posing a threat. It’s about relative threat. The risk of it turning out that they were a child soldier should be less than the risk of getting it wrong. If you were right and they were a child soldier you risk possible death but if you drone strike them without checking then you should definitely kill yourself. So although it’s not an ideal situation you still don’t drone strike them, it’s too dangerous to you. The safest thing to do is investigate.
I really do think it's about whether the child soldier posed a threat. Hamas trains kids and teens and photographs them in their drills and Hamas uniforms.
I don't see where you're getting at with "relative threat," like there's some relative amount of dead IDF soldiers that is acceptable on the flip side. This "you should definitely kill yourself" business makes me think it's best to leave it there. Make sure to post further news stories you see that shed light on potential investigations and clarity.
![[image loading]](https://e3.365dm.com/25/11/1600x900/skynews-gaza-israel-palestine_7095647.jpg?20251129172930)
EPT
