Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 45

On October 15 2023 18:18 Gorsameth wrote:
Do you legit think that if the situations between Palestinians and Israel were reversed today, the world would stand in solidarity and support of Palestine as they committed genocide on the Israeli masses strapped in Gaza?

I think its an incredibly safe bet that if it were anyone other then a Jewish Israel in this situation these attacks would not go uncondemned.

On October 15 2023 15:08 Salazarz wrote:
The notion that this conflict cannot be resolved without complete extermination of one of the sides or similarly unrealistic complete demilitarization of both sides is laughable. People aren't werewolves, and radical extremism in Gaza doesn't happen because of 'cultural incompatibilities' or 'religious conflict', it happens because of an ever-growing list of slights committed against the people living there, both real and made up, and because people living there have pretty much nothing to lose. You don't have to go far for proof of this -- even the similarly mistreated West Bank is far more peaceful and less prone to radicalization than the Gaza strip is. If Israel truly and genuinely wished for violence to end, they'd start investing into building a way for Palestinians to live in a way that makes violent suicide attacks a less attractive option, and give them a way of life that actually makes life worth living. Unfortunately, violent attacks from Hamas are useful to keep attention away from their continued settlement expansion and general lack of any desire whatsoever to solve the territorial disputes with Palestine, so they're quite okay with the status quo, even if the said status quo involves Israelis dying now and then.



Since you are bringing history up, how many examples are there in history where violence and oppression has ever solved conflicts such as this? Going back as far as recorded history goes, vast majority of rulers and conquerors understood the necessity of allowing minorities / rebellious groups to live in peace and relative prosperity, to enjoy reasonable rights and have something to lose if they were to rebel. Ancient Persians understood this, the Romans understood this, the Arab Sheikhs and Caliphs understood this, even the fucking Mongols understood this -- but somehow today bombing millions of people into submission is presented as viable method of pacifying terrorists and 'self defense'? That's just ridiculous.

On October 15 2023 20:18 BlackJack wrote:


Is the world "standing in solidarity in support of Israel" regarding the current siege on Gaza? The pro-Palestinian demonstrations around the world have far outnumbered the pro-Israel ones, at least from what I have seen. The UN often condemns Israel which is often vetoed by the United States.

On October 15 2023 22:43 Manit0u wrote:.

Do you really believe that even if they improved the infrastructure or poured money into the Gaza Strip or West Bank it would suddenly make Palestinians happy and forget about all of this?

You also can't dismiss religion here since Jerusalem is an important city for both religions.

Growing horizontal inequalities are one of the consistently cited drivers of violent extremism. Critically, unemployment or poverty alone is not the only push factor inciting violence and extremism: perceptions of injustice, human-rights violations, social-political exclusion, widespread corruption or sustained mistreatment of certain groups, are also considered important push factors. When all these horizontal inequalities come together for a particular group, radical movements and violence are more likely to erupt.

"This is the cause of all causes, the cause of all Arabs," Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi said on Thursday. "It is important that the (Palestinian) people remain steadfast and present on their land."

"Hold on to your homes. Hold on to your land," was the message broadcast from mosques in Gaza, as tens of thousands of people headed south. Others vowed to stay. "Death is better than leaving," said Mohammad, 20, outside a bombed Gaza building.

Jordan's King Abdullah warned "against any attempt to forcibly displace Palestinians from all Palestinian territories or cause their internal displacement, calling for preventing a spillover of the crisis into neighbouring countries and the exacerbation of the refugee issue."

Egypt faced an Islamist insurgency in northern Sinai that peaked after 2013 before security forces re-established control, and security sources and analysts say it wants to prevent infiltration by militants from Hamas - which shares an ideology with the Muslim Brotherhood, a group outlawed in Egypt.

Egypt says the Rafah crossing is open and they are trying to secure the delivery of humanitarian relief into Gaza, although this has been hampered by Israeli bombardments close to the border. Cairo has also indicated that the resolution of the issue through any mass exodus of Palestinians is unacceptable.

On October 16 2023 02:37 Cerebrate1 wrote:
This thread has brought up a lot of interesting points and angles on the conflict. I appreciate that.

There has been a lot of digital ink spilled here over "what should Israel do?" It's interesting as a philosophical question, but I think the conclusion made clear in this thread is that there is no choice they can make at this juncture that will lead to a fairy tale ending.

The flip side, which has not been addressed much though is "what should Gaza do?" And I ask you to consider that.

I think it's an important question to ask because there is a real tendency to infantilize the Palestinians. We treat Israel as if it has free will (perhaps because we relate to them more), but Palestinian actions are often tacitly assumed to be a given. As if they just can't make real choices for themselves.

The regular statistics about the high percent of kids in the country gears our brains to think that way, but I highly doubt every person in Gaza is either a child or a completely unreasonable fantic.

If you were made into the leader of Hamas tomorrow, what could you do to stop the Palestinians from dying?

On October 16 2023 02:31 Liquid`Drone wrote:
You do realize that 'the UN' has largely been 'the world except Israel+the US', right? It's just that without the US, the UN is neutered.

Not that I am defending those statements you've quoted, I just want to clarify that 'the world' has largely supported Palestinians over the past decades, it just hasn't meant anything because the US hasn't and the countries allied with the US are more powerful than the ones that aren't.

On October 16 2023 03:13 Mohdoo wrote:

I disagree. “Support” as a term is not deserved by the UN or the world as a whole. And like I described above, I think we do Palestinians a huge disservice by granting factions circlejerking over “support” by allowing it to labeled as support. They are not doing enough and they are consciously deciding not to do more. They are weighing the pros and cons of doing more and saying it’s not worth it. The Palestinians are not being supported by anyone.

On October 16 2023 02:18 Mohdoo wrote:
The responses from the Arab world recently have further confirmed what I described previously: Palestinian dehumanization is a means to an end for various factions for various reasons.

In any other situation, non-combatants are encouraged to evacuate, find shelter away from the fighting, and hope for a chance to return to their homes after their homes are defended. But what if non-combatant lives can be used as a tool to positively impact your position in an ancient rivalry?




Gotta stick to your guns! Why leave when you could instead die?



Literally saying the quiet part out loud. This is why modern cultural sensitivities being applied to this conflict is not reasonable. All of the progress regarding reducing the tragedy of war flies out the window when the losing side glorifies dying.



Jordan basically says "bro we have enough refugees as-is. Can you not make this worse? I hate this, its super annoying to deal with. All you women and children need to chill and stop trying to survive and whatnot"



https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/arab-states-say-palestinians-must-stay-their-land-war-escalates-2023-10-13/

So Egypt doesn't trust the Palestinians because of an actual insurgency. And also, they must sit and die because they are carrying the Arab world on their shoulders.

In summary:

1) Death is encouraged and glorified by the government of these 1 million people. Not just combatants, the whole thing. All of them. They are specifically saying the land is more important than the lives. It is actual lunacy.

2) Neighboring countries join in and support this view, saying Palestinians are fighting "the cause of all Arabs". They are reinforcing the idea that their lives being sacrificed for this is worthwhile because the land is just soooo soooo soooooo important. Please do not lose track of the fact that holding the land is very well understood to be the primary concern and that saving lives is secondary. The land is said to be critical for "all Arabs".

3) Neighboring countries say there is already enough of a refugee crisis and they'd rather these women and children stay where they are at, because its already a difficult situation

4) Neighboring countries openly do not trust the people living in Gaza

5) There is no "we will do what we can, but we can't solve this on our own" messaging. No one is doing the best they can while trying to bring in more power and resources to help reduce non-combatant lives from being lost. They are just saying no and also saying it is important for them to take one for the team because they are some kinda spearhead of Arab purpose. There are like 10 separate nations and 4 separate factions that are all making a conscious decision to not improve the situation in any way.

Is there any group of people on Earth who have more people rooting against them? I think its basically just the UN who is actively trying to save Palestinian lives.

On October 16 2023 02:44 Cricketer12 wrote:

52% of Palestinians are under 18. They can have their water and electricity cut off at will. Hamas commits acts of terror which embolden Western Media and the IDF. The PLO spends more time in its non-violent protest being asked to condemn Hamas. School, Hospitals and News Stations are regularly destroyed by Israeli missles. What do you want Palestinians to do?