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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On October 16 2023 04:16 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 02:44 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:37 Cerebrate1 wrote:
This
If you were made into the leader of Hamas tomorrow, what could you do to stop the Palestinians from dying? 52% of Palestinians are under 18. They can have their water and electricity cut off at will. Hamas commits acts of terror which embolden Western Media and the IDF. The PLO spends more time in its non-violent protest being asked to condemn Hamas. School, Hospitals and News Stations are regularly destroyed by Israeli missles. What do you want Palestinians to do? To flip your statistic: 48% of Palestinians are over 18. That's over a million fully grown adults capable of making decisions. Here is how I would answer my question. If I was made leader of Hamas today, I could save the most of my people by releasing all hostages and putting all terrorists involved in the October 7 attack on trial. I would show that I run a real respectable country that happens to have terrorists (who we deal with), rather than a terrorist state. Israel would no longer have casus belli and the US would pressure it to end the conflict if I could show this was a legitimate good will effort.
Sounds like a pretty simple end to the conflict right (at least the current fighting)? No moral ambiguity. Terrorists lose, everyone else wins. That is, what should happen to solve the conflict is simple. We are merely stuck on the how. The current Hamas leaders aren't doing that, so they are clearly the bad guys because they are the best ones who can end the bloodshed. But is anyone pressuring them to do it? If all of the Palestinians in Gaza demanded that they did that, would it affect their decision? Could some lieutenant kill the leader, take over, and free the hostages?
Why is it, in your opinion, that Palestine initiated an attack? You do understand that the deplorable conditions Palestinians are suffering under are not new and not a result of October 7th right? What makes you think that simply detaining and putting the Palestinian terrorists on trial would cause Israel to pull back? Why is the onus on the oppressed to act when the oppressor has not put its own terrorists on trial at any point during this decades long occupation?
On October 16 2023 04:42 Magic Powers wrote:
Last time Hamas made Israel believe they're turning to economic growth and away from terrorism, it resulted in Hamas bombing a surprised Israel and getting themselves and much of Gaza bombed in return. Hamas are irredeemable and with this most recent attack they've made absolutely sure that Israel will never forget that.
Why are we calling it a surprise attack when Iran and Egypt both informed Bibi weeks in advance this was coming?
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Netherlands21351 Posts
On October 16 2023 04:16 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 02:44 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:37 Cerebrate1 wrote:
This
If you were made into the leader of Hamas tomorrow, what could you do to stop the Palestinians from dying? 52% of Palestinians are under 18. They can have their water and electricity cut off at will. Hamas commits acts of terror which embolden Western Media and the IDF. The PLO spends more time in its non-violent protest being asked to condemn Hamas. School, Hospitals and News Stations are regularly destroyed by Israeli missles. What do you want Palestinians to do? To flip your statistic: 48% of Palestinians are over 18. That's over a million fully grown adults capable of making decisions. Here is how I would answer my question. If I was made leader of Hamas today, I could save the most of my people by releasing all hostages and putting all terrorists involved in the October 7 attack on trial. I would show that I run a real respectable country that happens to have terrorists (who we deal with), rather than a terrorist state. Israel would no longer have casus belli and the US would pressure it to end the conflict if I could show this was a legitimate good will effort. There are some very very big if there.
A bunch of the hostages will be dead even if just from collateral damage, so you can't return those.
No real reason to assume Israel will be satisfied with turning over those supposedly responsible, they have made it rather clear they want to the organisation to stop existing.
And considering the sort of organisation Hamas is and the fight they are waging there is a very decent chance a bullet passes through your skull from the guy next to you before you finish your declaration to Israel that you surrender.
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Norway28555 Posts
On October 16 2023 04:16 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 02:44 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:37 Cerebrate1 wrote:
This
If you were made into the leader of Hamas tomorrow, what could you do to stop the Palestinians from dying? 52% of Palestinians are under 18. They can have their water and electricity cut off at will. Hamas commits acts of terror which embolden Western Media and the IDF. The PLO spends more time in its non-violent protest being asked to condemn Hamas. School, Hospitals and News Stations are regularly destroyed by Israeli missles. What do you want Palestinians to do? To flip your statistic: 48% of Palestinians are over 18. That's over a million fully grown adults capable of making decisions. Here is how I would answer my question. If I was made leader of Hamas today, I could save the most of my people by releasing all hostages and putting all terrorists involved in the October 7 attack on trial. I would show that I run a real respectable country that happens to have terrorists (who we deal with), rather than a terrorist state. Israel would no longer have casus belli and the US would pressure it to end the conflict if I could show this was a legitimate good will effort. Sounds like a pretty simple end to the conflict right (at least the current fighting)? No moral ambiguity. Terrorists lose, everyone else wins. That is, what should happen to solve the conflict is simple. We are merely stuck on the how. The current Hamas leaders aren't doing that, so they are clearly the bad guys because they are the best ones who can end the bloodshed. But is anyone pressuring them to do it? If all of the Palestinians in Gaza demanded that they did that, would it affect their decision? Could some lieutenant kill the leader, take over, and free the hostages?
To flip your question - what would you do if you were the leader of Israel, to make a lasting peace a possibility? What concessions could you make towards the Palestinian people to make the situation more tenable to them? I guess more than anything, I'm wondering what your perspective is on the Israeli settlements.
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On October 16 2023 04:46 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 04:16 Cerebrate1 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:44 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:37 Cerebrate1 wrote:
This
If you were made into the leader of Hamas tomorrow, what could you do to stop the Palestinians from dying? 52% of Palestinians are under 18. They can have their water and electricity cut off at will. Hamas commits acts of terror which embolden Western Media and the IDF. The PLO spends more time in its non-violent protest being asked to condemn Hamas. School, Hospitals and News Stations are regularly destroyed by Israeli missles. What do you want Palestinians to do? To flip your statistic: 48% of Palestinians are over 18. That's over a million fully grown adults capable of making decisions. Here is how I would answer my question. If I was made leader of Hamas today, I could save the most of my people by releasing all hostages and putting all terrorists involved in the October 7 attack on trial. I would show that I run a real respectable country that happens to have terrorists (who we deal with), rather than a terrorist state. Israel would no longer have casus belli and the US would pressure it to end the conflict if I could show this was a legitimate good will effort. There are some very very big if there. A bunch of the hostages will be dead even if just from collateral damage, so you can't return those. No real reason to assume Israel will be satisfied with turning over those supposedly responsible, they have made it rather clear they want to the organisation to stop existing. And considering the sort of organisation Hamas is and the fight they are waging there is a very decent chance a bullet passes through your skull from the guy next to you before you finish your declaration to Israel that you surrender.
His point is that there’s a multitude of actions Hamas leadership could take to limit or even stop the bloodshed, if they so desired and were willing to make sacrifices for it. Some other examples from what he described are…
- Turning themselves in
- Globally ordering Hamas militants to lay down arms
- Reveal locations of hideouts/safe spots
- Inform on Hezbollah hideouts/safe spots
Obviously it’s not in the best interests of Hamas leadership to do any of these things, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s their decision to make. They have agency.
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Of note, this ability to end the conflict by getting Hamas to act like a reasonable government doesn’t end at the leaders, their lieutenants, or the people of Gaza.
The international community has a lot of leverage to pressure them. Billions of dollars of international aid are sent to Gaza every year. All you have to do is put some strings on that money. Didn't attack Israel for a whole year? More money. 3 year streak? Even more money. Just fired rockets? Reset down to the lowest amount.
Money talks. And the good news is, it's already earmarked to send to them, so we don't even have to find a budget for it!
At the moment, they are basically being bribed to be bad actors instead. Every time they start up a war with Israel, they get more international attention and more aid. We just have to incentivize peace instead of war.
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On October 16 2023 05:20 Cerebrate1 wrote:
Of note, this ability to end the conflict by getting Hamas to act like a reasonable government doesn’t end at the leaders, their lieutenants, or the people of Gaza.
The international community has a lot of leverage to pressure them. Billions of dollars of international aid are sent to Gaza every year. All you have to do is put some strings on that money. Didn't attack Israel for a whole year? More money. 3 year streak? Even more money. Just fired rockets? Reset down to the lowest amount.
Money talks. And the good news is, it's already earmarked to send to them, so we don't even have to find a budget for it!
At the moment, they are basically being bribed to be bad actors instead. Every time they start up a war with Israel, they get more international attention and more aid. We just have to incentivize peace instead of war.
My solution is to reverse this. At present Israel has no reason to come to the table with a serious and fair offer because they have all thw power and funding from the US. That needs to be shackled because until then Israel won't feel a need to come to the table in any serious way. Again, Palestinians have been suffering for years, with out without Hamas' terrorism. The West Bank is proof of this. No Hamas there and you'd be a fool to claim they live comfortably. This neither starts nor stops with Hamas.
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Netherlands21351 Posts
On October 16 2023 05:19 Ryzel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 04:46 Gorsameth wrote:On October 16 2023 04:16 Cerebrate1 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:44 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:37 Cerebrate1 wrote:
This
If you were made into the leader of Hamas tomorrow, what could you do to stop the Palestinians from dying? 52% of Palestinians are under 18. They can have their water and electricity cut off at will. Hamas commits acts of terror which embolden Western Media and the IDF. The PLO spends more time in its non-violent protest being asked to condemn Hamas. School, Hospitals and News Stations are regularly destroyed by Israeli missles. What do you want Palestinians to do? To flip your statistic: 48% of Palestinians are over 18. That's over a million fully grown adults capable of making decisions. Here is how I would answer my question. If I was made leader of Hamas today, I could save the most of my people by releasing all hostages and putting all terrorists involved in the October 7 attack on trial. I would show that I run a real respectable country that happens to have terrorists (who we deal with), rather than a terrorist state. Israel would no longer have casus belli and the US would pressure it to end the conflict if I could show this was a legitimate good will effort. There are some very very big if there. A bunch of the hostages will be dead even if just from collateral damage, so you can't return those. No real reason to assume Israel will be satisfied with turning over those supposedly responsible, they have made it rather clear they want to the organisation to stop existing. And considering the sort of organisation Hamas is and the fight they are waging there is a very decent chance a bullet passes through your skull from the guy next to you before you finish your declaration to Israel that you surrender. His point is that there’s a multitude of actions Hamas leadership could take to limit or even stop the bloodshed, if they so desired and were willing to make sacrifices for it. Some other examples from what he described are… - Turning themselves in - Globally ordering Hamas militants to lay down arms - Reveal locations of hideouts/safe spots - Inform on Hezbollah hideouts/safe spots Obviously it’s not in the best interests of Hamas leadership to do any of these things, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s their decision to make. They have agency. Every single one of those examples is followed by "and hope Israel is satisfied with that".
This offensive ends when Israel choses to end it. Everyone else can pressure or plead to try and steer them but at the end of the day its all up to Israel. That's why the focus on what could go differently is on them and not on what Gaza could do differently. (and because the obvious answer is "don't be a terrorist state")
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On October 16 2023 04:43 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 04:16 Cerebrate1 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:44 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:37 Cerebrate1 wrote:
This
If you were made into the leader of Hamas tomorrow, what could you do to stop the Palestinians from dying? 52% of Palestinians are under 18. They can have their water and electricity cut off at will. Hamas commits acts of terror which embolden Western Media and the IDF. The PLO spends more time in its non-violent protest being asked to condemn Hamas. School, Hospitals and News Stations are regularly destroyed by Israeli missles. What do you want Palestinians to do? To flip your statistic: 48% of Palestinians are over 18. That's over a million fully grown adults capable of making decisions. Here is how I would answer my question. If I was made leader of Hamas today, I could save the most of my people by releasing all hostages and putting all terrorists involved in the October 7 attack on trial. I would show that I run a real respectable country that happens to have terrorists (who we deal with), rather than a terrorist state. Israel would no longer have casus belli and the US would pressure it to end the conflict if I could show this was a legitimate good will effort.
Sounds like a pretty simple end to the conflict right (at least the current fighting)? No moral ambiguity. Terrorists lose, everyone else wins. That is, what should happen to solve the conflict is simple. We are merely stuck on the how. The current Hamas leaders aren't doing that, so they are clearly the bad guys because they are the best ones who can end the bloodshed. But is anyone pressuring them to do it? If all of the Palestinians in Gaza demanded that they did that, would it affect their decision? Could some lieutenant kill the leader, take over, and free the hostages? Why is it, in your opinion, that Palestine initiated an attack? You do understand that the deplorable conditions Palestinians are suffering under are not new and not a result of October 7th right?
Islamist terrorists have agency. No one forced them to burn and behead infants and rape and kill. There is no justification for that. Why did hundreds of Muslims in Sweden, a country with free health care, free education (where you get payed to go to University) and one of the most solid welfare states in the world, choose to fight for the IS, murder and torture people indiscriminately?
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On October 16 2023 05:33 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 04:43 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 04:16 Cerebrate1 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:44 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:37 Cerebrate1 wrote:
This
If you were made into the leader of Hamas tomorrow, what could you do to stop the Palestinians from dying? 52% of Palestinians are under 18. They can have their water and electricity cut off at will. Hamas commits acts of terror which embolden Western Media and the IDF. The PLO spends more time in its non-violent protest being asked to condemn Hamas. School, Hospitals and News Stations are regularly destroyed by Israeli missles. What do you want Palestinians to do? To flip your statistic: 48% of Palestinians are over 18. That's over a million fully grown adults capable of making decisions. Here is how I would answer my question. If I was made leader of Hamas today, I could save the most of my people by releasing all hostages and putting all terrorists involved in the October 7 attack on trial. I would show that I run a real respectable country that happens to have terrorists (who we deal with), rather than a terrorist state. Israel would no longer have casus belli and the US would pressure it to end the conflict if I could show this was a legitimate good will effort.
Sounds like a pretty simple end to the conflict right (at least the current fighting)? No moral ambiguity. Terrorists lose, everyone else wins. That is, what should happen to solve the conflict is simple. We are merely stuck on the how. The current Hamas leaders aren't doing that, so they are clearly the bad guys because they are the best ones who can end the bloodshed. But is anyone pressuring them to do it? If all of the Palestinians in Gaza demanded that they did that, would it affect their decision? Could some lieutenant kill the leader, take over, and free the hostages? Why is it, in your opinion, that Palestine initiated an attack? You do understand that the deplorable conditions Palestinians are suffering under are not new and not a result of October 7th right? Islamist terrorists have agency. No one forced them to burn and behead infants and rape and kill. There is no justification for that. Why did hundreds of Arabs in Sweden, a country with free health care, free education (where you get payed to go to University) and one of the most solid welfare states in the world, choose to fight for the IS, murder and torture people indiscriminately?
To be clear, the beheaded infants story was never proven (didn't stop everyone spreading it like wildfire) but we do have recorded proof of the IDF assaulting, raping, arresting and murdering Palestinian civilians. Not only are you ignorning the multiple war crimes Israel is committing, sounds like you're implying Islamist Terrorism is far more pronounced within the Palestinian population than is the reality.
I can't speak to what happened in Sweden, but if people are murdering civilians, that's fucked up point blank. Propaganda is a disgusting evil tool, and everyone group clawing at power and influence uses it to horrific effect, Islamists are no different.
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On October 16 2023 05:25 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 05:20 Cerebrate1 wrote:
Of note, this ability to end the conflict by getting Hamas to act like a reasonable government doesn’t end at the leaders, their lieutenants, or the people of Gaza.
The international community has a lot of leverage to pressure them. Billions of dollars of international aid are sent to Gaza every year. All you have to do is put some strings on that money. Didn't attack Israel for a whole year? More money. 3 year streak? Even more money. Just fired rockets? Reset down to the lowest amount.
Money talks. And the good news is, it's already earmarked to send to them, so we don't even have to find a budget for it!
At the moment, they are basically being bribed to be bad actors instead. Every time they start up a war with Israel, they get more international attention and more aid. We just have to incentivize peace instead of war. My solution is to reverse this. At present Israel has no reason to come to the table with a serious and fair offer because they have all thw power and funding from the US. That needs to be shackled because until then Israel won't feel a need to come to the table in any serious way. Again, Palestinians have been suffering for years, with out without Hamas' terrorism. The West Bank is proof of this. No Hamas there and you'd be a fool to claim they live comfortably. This neither starts nor stops with Hamas.
Both factions just kinda take turns war criming each other whenever they get an upper hand.
The issue is that both Muslims and Jews think there is a super natural reason the land is important. So long as sizable portions of both groups think it’s true, it’s gonna be an entirely valid reason for violence in their eyes. Neither of them can be trusted with military dominance over the other because they actually truly believe it has super natural importance. I think a big mistake many people here are making is giving a pass for these perspectives. They are not ok perspectives. They aren’t true, or reasonable, and they are considered entirely valid as a justification for violence.
I think it’s a bit short sighted for people to lose track of the fact that it isn’t a simple matter of nationalism etc, they really think this stuff is real.
And just so that we are all on the same page, here is a description of the religious significance of Jerusalem:
Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the ancestral and spiritual homeland of the Jewish people since the 10th century BC.[2] During classical antiquity, Jerusalem was considered the center of the world, where God resided.[3]
The city of Jerusalem is given special status in Jewish religious law. In particular, Jews outside Jerusalem pray facing its direction, and the maaser sheni, revai and First Fruits must be eaten in Jerusalem. Any expansion of the city for these purposes must be approved by the Sanhedrin.[citation needed] Also, when the Temple in Jerusalem was standing, Jerusalem observed special laws regarding the Four Species on Sukkot, and the Shofar on Rosh Hashanah.
And God said: "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah [Jerusalem]; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains [Temple Mount] which I will tell thee of."
— Genesis 22:2
Jerusalem has long been embedded into Jewish religious consciousness. Jews have studied and personalized the struggle by King David to capture Jerusalem and his desire to build the Jewish temple there, as described in the Book of Samuel and the Book of Psalms. Many of King David's yearnings about Jerusalem have been adapted into popular prayers and songs.
Jerusalem appears in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) 669 times and Zion (which usually means Jerusalem, sometimes the Land of Israel) appears 154 times. The first section, the Torah, only mentions Moriah, the mountain range believed to be the location of the binding of Isaac and the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, and in later parts of the Tanakh the city is written explicitly. The Tanakh (or Old Testament), is a text sacred to both Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism it is considered the Written Law, the basis for the Oral Law (Mishnah, Talmud and Shulkhan Arukh) studied, practiced and treasured by Jews and Judaism for three millennia.[4] The Talmud elaborates in great depth the Jewish connection with the city.
According to the Hebrew Bible, the First Temple, at the site known as the Temple Mount today, was built by King Solomon and finished in 950 BC,[5] and Mount Moriah is where Abraham almost sacrificed his son and talked to God. When the Babylonians captured the city in 580 BC, they destroyed the temple and sent the Jews into exile.[6] That is, all worshiping was practiced in the temple and only the temple. From the Babylonian capture, Judaism was codified.[7] The Tanakh (Old Testament) laid the foundation for both Christianity and Islam.
In Sunni Islam, Jerusalem is the third-holiest city after Mecca and Medina.[16][17] Muslims believe that Muhammad was transported to Jerusalem during his Night Journey (Isra and Mi'raj).[18] The Qur'an describes how the prophet was taken by the miraculous steed Buraq from the Great Mosque of Mecca to Al-Aqsa ('"the farthest place of prayer") where he prayed, and then to visit heaven in a single night in the year 621.[19][20]
Glory be to the One Who took His servant ˹Muḥammad˺ by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque whose surroundings We have blessed, so that We may show him some of Our signs. Indeed, He alone is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing.
— Quran 17:1
Although the city of Jerusalem is not mentioned by any of its names in the Qur'an, it is mentioned in later Islamic literature as the place of Muhammad's Night Journey.[21] The story of Muhammad's ascension from Al-Aqsa Mosque was understood as relating to the Temple in Jerusalem (referred to as Bayt Al-Maqdis).[22] The Al-Aqsa Mosque is specified of being in Jerusalem in numerous hadith (prophetic traditions):
When the people of Quraish did not believe me (i.e. the story of my Night Journey), I stood up in Al-Hijr and Allah displayed Jerusalem in front of me, and I began describing it to them while I was looking at it.
— Sahih al-Bukhari 3886
The most holy spot [al-quds] on earth is Syria; the most holy spot in Syria is Palestine; the most holy spot in Palestine is Jerusalem [Bayt al-maqdis]; the most holy spot in Jerusalem is the Mountain; the most holy spot in Jerusalem is the place of worship [al-masjid], and the most holy spot in the place of worship is the Dome
— Thawr ibn Yazid, c. 770[23][24][25]
Zayd ibn Thabit reports that the Prophet said, "How blessed is al-Sham! The Companions around asked: "Why is that?" The Messenger replied, "I see the angels of Allah spread their wings over al-Sham". lbn Abbas added, "and the Prophets lived in it. There is not a single inch in al-Quds (Jerusalem) where a Prophet has not prayed or an angel not stood".
— Tirmidhi hadith (compiled between 864/5-884)
The spiritual importance of Jerusalem in Islam is further emphasized due to its status as the first Qibla (direction of prayer). Islamic tradition holds that Muhammad led prayers towards Jerusalem until the 16th or 17th month after his migration from Mecca to Medina, when Allah directed him to instead turn towards the Kaaba in Mecca.[26][Quran 2:142-151] Another part of Jerusalem's significance and holiness to Muslims derives from its strong association with Abraham, David, Solomon, and Jesus. They are all regarded as Prophets of Islam and their stories are mentioned in the Qur'an.[27]
Today, the Temple Mount is dominated by three monumental structures from the early Umayyad period – the Dome of the Rock (691 CE), the Dome of the Chain (691-692 CE) and the al-Aqsa Mosque (705-715 CE).[28]
This is not ok. It is not ok for people to cite these as reasons for occupying specific land.
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On October 16 2023 05:40 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 05:25 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 05:20 Cerebrate1 wrote:
Of note, this ability to end the conflict by getting Hamas to act like a reasonable government doesn’t end at the leaders, their lieutenants, or the people of Gaza.
The international community has a lot of leverage to pressure them. Billions of dollars of international aid are sent to Gaza every year. All you have to do is put some strings on that money. Didn't attack Israel for a whole year? More money. 3 year streak? Even more money. Just fired rockets? Reset down to the lowest amount.
Money talks. And the good news is, it's already earmarked to send to them, so we don't even have to find a budget for it!
At the moment, they are basically being bribed to be bad actors instead. Every time they start up a war with Israel, they get more international attention and more aid. We just have to incentivize peace instead of war. My solution is to reverse this. At present Israel has no reason to come to the table with a serious and fair offer because they have all thw power and funding from the US. That needs to be shackled because until then Israel won't feel a need to come to the table in any serious way. Again, Palestinians have been suffering for years, with out without Hamas' terrorism. The West Bank is proof of this. No Hamas there and you'd be a fool to claim they live comfortably. This neither starts nor stops with Hamas. Both factions just kinda take turns war criming each other whenever they get an upper hand. The issue is that both Muslims and Jews think there is a super natural reason the land is important. So long as sizable portions of both groups think it’s true, it’s gonna be an entirely valid reason for violence in their eyes. Neither of them can be trusted with military dominance over the other because they actually truly believe it has super natural importance. I think a big mistake many people here are making is giving a pass for these perspectives. They are not ok perspectives. They aren’t true, or reasonable, and they are considered entirely valid as a justification for violence. I think it’s a bit short sighted for people to lose track of the fact that it isn’t a simple matter of nationalism etc, they really think this stuff is real.
I think it's more nationalism than religion. There is a sizeable Palestinian Christian population that is also suffering, there is a sizeable number of atheist/agnostic ethnic Jews in Israel. I've never heard Palestinians (apart from the terrorists who want to murder all Jews) talk about Al-Aqsa as a key motivator. It's the fact that they've been kicked out of the houses their family lived in for generations.
Absolutely Muslims value Jerusalem. Muslims value Al-Aqsa, and they want to be able to access it unconditionally.
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On October 16 2023 05:19 Ryzel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 04:46 Gorsameth wrote:On October 16 2023 04:16 Cerebrate1 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:44 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:37 Cerebrate1 wrote:
This
If you were made into the leader of Hamas tomorrow, what could you do to stop the Palestinians from dying? 52% of Palestinians are under 18. They can have their water and electricity cut off at will. Hamas commits acts of terror which embolden Western Media and the IDF. The PLO spends more time in its non-violent protest being asked to condemn Hamas. School, Hospitals and News Stations are regularly destroyed by Israeli missles. What do you want Palestinians to do? To flip your statistic: 48% of Palestinians are over 18. That's over a million fully grown adults capable of making decisions. Here is how I would answer my question. If I was made leader of Hamas today, I could save the most of my people by releasing all hostages and putting all terrorists involved in the October 7 attack on trial. I would show that I run a real respectable country that happens to have terrorists (who we deal with), rather than a terrorist state. Israel would no longer have casus belli and the US would pressure it to end the conflict if I could show this was a legitimate good will effort. There are some very very big if there. A bunch of the hostages will be dead even if just from collateral damage, so you can't return those. No real reason to assume Israel will be satisfied with turning over those supposedly responsible, they have made it rather clear they want to the organisation to stop existing. And considering the sort of organisation Hamas is and the fight they are waging there is a very decent chance a bullet passes through your skull from the guy next to you before you finish your declaration to Israel that you surrender. His point is that there’s a multitude of actions Hamas leadership could take to limit or even stop the bloodshed, if they so desired and were willing to make sacrifices for it. Some other examples from what he described are… - Turning themselves in - Globally ordering Hamas militants to lay down arms - Reveal locations of hideouts/safe spots - Inform on Hezbollah hideouts/safe spots Obviously it’s not in the best interests of Hamas leadership to do any of these things, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s their decision to make. They have agency.
It's not in the best interest of Hamas and it's also not in the best interest of Palestinians. When Palestinians stop fighting, Israel isn't suddenly going to grant them equal status. They're still going to pursue their long term project. In that sense I don't think you're describing agency, I think you're describing a surrender.
This argument, to me, sounds similar to saying that women have agency in the conflicts regarding patriarchy: if they stop with all this complaining and accept a status of inferiority in relation to men, then the feminist struggle is ending, and that's agency. Well, no.
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Hamas are the scum of the earth. They are the same as IS. Whatever you think about the greater conflict and its possible solutions, that should be indisputable. You really can't compare what they did in their absurd killing spree with women attacking patriarchy ffs. Look at shit like this (Clip from CNN): + Show Spoiler +
When was the last time dying rape victims were paraded through Tel Aviv to the acclaim of the general population btw?
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On October 15 2023 22:50 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2023 20:18 BlackJack wrote:On October 15 2023 18:18 Gorsameth wrote:On October 15 2023 16:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Arguing that jews have been favoured through history or even today above other people is a weird stance to take.
The leftist worldview where everything is viewed through a lens of skin colour and every problem can be traced back to colonialism is truly amazing. I know I've been there myself 20 years ago.
I don't think the skin colour in Gaza would matter even the sligthest bit if everything else was unchanged.
Actually if the arab side had decided to stop selling land instead of the arab riots in 1936 it's not unlikely we would be reading about the jewish riots of 1938-40 instead. Take that that through it's logical course in history and we could well be looking at a complete role reversal and it's unlikely the rest of the world would react differently. Do you legit think that if the situations between Palestinians and Israel were reversed today, the world would stand in solidarity and support of Palestine as they committed genocide on the Israeli masses strapped in Gaza? I think its an incredibly safe bet that if it were anyone other then a Jewish Israel in this situation these attacks would not go uncondemned. Is the world "standing in solidarity in support of Israel" regarding the current siege on Gaza? The pro-Palestinian demonstrations around the world have far outnumbered the pro-Israel ones, at least from what I have seen. The UN often condemns Israel which is often vetoed by the United States. This hot-take is beyond ridiculous even for you. Firstly, there was a massive outcry of public support when Hamas violently broke out and slaughtered, raped and pillaged their way through kibbutzes and festivals. But more to the point, every single western government has put out a statement saying something along the lines of that they condemn the attack and stand by Israel and whatever it needs to defend its citizens. So why protest? Why would you take to the streets to march in protest if you support Israel? You protest if your government is doing things you don't, not when they're making moves you like. So of course in the west there will be fewer pro-Israel protests: there is no need to protest when the government is pro-Israel. As for UN resolutions... what are you trying to say with that?
It's quite a leap to say that condemning a terrorist attack and condoning Israel's right to defend itself is the same as "standing in solidarity of Israel committing genocide in Gaza." If we want to generalize what "the world" has to say on this it's for Israel to show restraint and make all attempts to preserve civilian life, which would be the opposite of genocide. You can't just assume because sympathy has been given to Israel for the terrorist attack they suffered that a blank check has been written to support any and all atrocities they wish to commit in the future. That's nonsense.
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On October 16 2023 06:11 Elroi wrote:Hamas are the scum of the earth. They are the same as IS. Whatever you think about the greater conflict and its possible solutions, that should be indisputable. You really can't compare what they did in their absurd killing spree with women attacking patriarchy ffs. Look at shit like this (Clip from CNN): + Show Spoiler +When was the last time dying rape victims were paraded through Tel Aviv to the acclaim of the general population btw?
It's a systemic comparison, not an ethical one or whatever you're trying to say I'm not even quite sure. I'm trying to illustrate that surrendering to a social hierarchy where you're inferior isn't exactly "having agency", unless we're trying to make a mockery of the notion.
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On October 16 2023 05:50 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 05:40 Mohdoo wrote:On October 16 2023 05:25 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 05:20 Cerebrate1 wrote:
Of note, this ability to end the conflict by getting Hamas to act like a reasonable government doesn’t end at the leaders, their lieutenants, or the people of Gaza.
The international community has a lot of leverage to pressure them. Billions of dollars of international aid are sent to Gaza every year. All you have to do is put some strings on that money. Didn't attack Israel for a whole year? More money. 3 year streak? Even more money. Just fired rockets? Reset down to the lowest amount.
Money talks. And the good news is, it's already earmarked to send to them, so we don't even have to find a budget for it!
At the moment, they are basically being bribed to be bad actors instead. Every time they start up a war with Israel, they get more international attention and more aid. We just have to incentivize peace instead of war. My solution is to reverse this. At present Israel has no reason to come to the table with a serious and fair offer because they have all thw power and funding from the US. That needs to be shackled because until then Israel won't feel a need to come to the table in any serious way. Again, Palestinians have been suffering for years, with out without Hamas' terrorism. The West Bank is proof of this. No Hamas there and you'd be a fool to claim they live comfortably. This neither starts nor stops with Hamas. Both factions just kinda take turns war criming each other whenever they get an upper hand. The issue is that both Muslims and Jews think there is a super natural reason the land is important. So long as sizable portions of both groups think it’s true, it’s gonna be an entirely valid reason for violence in their eyes. Neither of them can be trusted with military dominance over the other because they actually truly believe it has super natural importance. I think a big mistake many people here are making is giving a pass for these perspectives. They are not ok perspectives. They aren’t true, or reasonable, and they are considered entirely valid as a justification for violence. I think it’s a bit short sighted for people to lose track of the fact that it isn’t a simple matter of nationalism etc, they really think this stuff is real. I think it's more nationalism than religion. There is a sizeable Palestinian Christian population that is also suffering, there is a sizeable number of atheist/agnostic ethnic Jews in Israel. I've never heard Palestinians (apart from the terrorists who want to murder all Jews) talk about Al-Aqsa as a key motivator. It's the fact that they've been kicked out of the houses their family lived in for generations. Absolutely Muslims value Jerusalem. Muslims value Al-Aqsa, and they want to be able to access it unconditionally.
Can you help me understand why Egypt and Jordan are under the wrong impression and describe Palestinians occupying the land as enormously important for Arabs?
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On October 16 2023 06:16 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 06:11 Elroi wrote:Hamas are the scum of the earth. They are the same as IS. Whatever you think about the greater conflict and its possible solutions, that should be indisputable. You really can't compare what they did in their absurd killing spree with women attacking patriarchy ffs. Look at shit like this (Clip from CNN): + Show Spoiler +When was the last time dying rape victims were paraded through Tel Aviv to the acclaim of the general population btw? It's a systemic comparison, not an ethical one or whatever you're trying to say I'm not even quite sure. I'm trying to illustrate that surrendering to a social hierarchy where you're inferior isn't exactly "having agency", unless we're trying to make a mockery of the notion.
The key premise in your comparison seems to be that Israel’s ultimate goal for the Palestinians is complete subjugation of the population and treating as second-class citizens, as opposed to something like disarming hostile agents and removing threats to the state. Do you have evidence that this is Israel’s current policy?
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On October 16 2023 04:43 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 04:16 Cerebrate1 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:44 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:37 Cerebrate1 wrote:
This
If you were made into the leader of Hamas tomorrow, what could you do to stop the Palestinians from dying? 52% of Palestinians are under 18. They can have their water and electricity cut off at will. Hamas commits acts of terror which embolden Western Media and the IDF. The PLO spends more time in its non-violent protest being asked to condemn Hamas. School, Hospitals and News Stations are regularly destroyed by Israeli missles. What do you want Palestinians to do? To flip your statistic: 48% of Palestinians are over 18. That's over a million fully grown adults capable of making decisions. Here is how I would answer my question. If I was made leader of Hamas today, I could save the most of my people by releasing all hostages and putting all terrorists involved in the October 7 attack on trial. I would show that I run a real respectable country that happens to have terrorists (who we deal with), rather than a terrorist state. Israel would no longer have casus belli and the US would pressure it to end the conflict if I could show this was a legitimate good will effort.
Sounds like a pretty simple end to the conflict right (at least the current fighting)? No moral ambiguity. Terrorists lose, everyone else wins. That is, what should happen to solve the conflict is simple. We are merely stuck on the how. The current Hamas leaders aren't doing that, so they are clearly the bad guys because they are the best ones who can end the bloodshed. But is anyone pressuring them to do it? If all of the Palestinians in Gaza demanded that they did that, would it affect their decision? Could some lieutenant kill the leader, take over, and free the hostages? Why is it, in your opinion, that Palestine initiated an attack? You do understand that the deplorable conditions Palestinians are suffering under are not new and not a result of October 7th right? What makes you think that simply detaining and putting the Palestinian terrorists on trial would cause Israel to pull back? Why is the onus on the oppressed to act when the oppressor has not put its own terrorists on trial at any point during this decades long occupation? Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 04:42 Magic Powers wrote:
Last time Hamas made Israel believe they're turning to economic growth and away from terrorism, it resulted in Hamas bombing a surprised Israel and getting themselves and much of Gaza bombed in return. Hamas are irredeemable and with this most recent attack they've made absolutely sure that Israel will never forget that. Why are we calling it a surprise attack when Iran and Egypt both informed Bibi weeks in advance this was coming?
I didn't call it a surprise attack, I said they surprised Israel. It's unclear why exactly they didn't take the warning from Egypt seriously, but it's clear that higher-ups strongly underestimated Hamas' will and/or power to strike with such force. This will never happen again. Thus Hamas will never receive even a shred of trust. There's no such thing as a Hamas leader negotiating with Israel, that train has left for good.
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On October 16 2023 06:36 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 05:50 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 05:40 Mohdoo wrote:On October 16 2023 05:25 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 05:20 Cerebrate1 wrote:
Of note, this ability to end the conflict by getting Hamas to act like a reasonable government doesn’t end at the leaders, their lieutenants, or the people of Gaza.
The international community has a lot of leverage to pressure them. Billions of dollars of international aid are sent to Gaza every year. All you have to do is put some strings on that money. Didn't attack Israel for a whole year? More money. 3 year streak? Even more money. Just fired rockets? Reset down to the lowest amount.
Money talks. And the good news is, it's already earmarked to send to them, so we don't even have to find a budget for it!
At the moment, they are basically being bribed to be bad actors instead. Every time they start up a war with Israel, they get more international attention and more aid. We just have to incentivize peace instead of war. My solution is to reverse this. At present Israel has no reason to come to the table with a serious and fair offer because they have all thw power and funding from the US. That needs to be shackled because until then Israel won't feel a need to come to the table in any serious way. Again, Palestinians have been suffering for years, with out without Hamas' terrorism. The West Bank is proof of this. No Hamas there and you'd be a fool to claim they live comfortably. This neither starts nor stops with Hamas. Both factions just kinda take turns war criming each other whenever they get an upper hand. The issue is that both Muslims and Jews think there is a super natural reason the land is important. So long as sizable portions of both groups think it’s true, it’s gonna be an entirely valid reason for violence in their eyes. Neither of them can be trusted with military dominance over the other because they actually truly believe it has super natural importance. I think a big mistake many people here are making is giving a pass for these perspectives. They are not ok perspectives. They aren’t true, or reasonable, and they are considered entirely valid as a justification for violence. I think it’s a bit short sighted for people to lose track of the fact that it isn’t a simple matter of nationalism etc, they really think this stuff is real. I think it's more nationalism than religion. There is a sizeable Palestinian Christian population that is also suffering, there is a sizeable number of atheist/agnostic ethnic Jews in Israel. I've never heard Palestinians (apart from the terrorists who want to murder all Jews) talk about Al-Aqsa as a key motivator. It's the fact that they've been kicked out of the houses their family lived in for generations. Absolutely Muslims value Jerusalem. Muslims value Al-Aqsa, and they want to be able to access it unconditionally. Can you help me understand why Egypt and Jordan are under the wrong impression and describe Palestinians occupying the land as enormously important for Arabs?
I have no idea why, but why are we letting Egypt and Jordan speak for the Palestinians when they population en masse has been rather consistent on this
On October 16 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 04:43 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 04:16 Cerebrate1 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:44 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:37 Cerebrate1 wrote:
This
If you were made into the leader of Hamas tomorrow, what could you do to stop the Palestinians from dying? 52% of Palestinians are under 18. They can have their water and electricity cut off at will. Hamas commits acts of terror which embolden Western Media and the IDF. The PLO spends more time in its non-violent protest being asked to condemn Hamas. School, Hospitals and News Stations are regularly destroyed by Israeli missles. What do you want Palestinians to do? To flip your statistic: 48% of Palestinians are over 18. That's over a million fully grown adults capable of making decisions. Here is how I would answer my question. If I was made leader of Hamas today, I could save the most of my people by releasing all hostages and putting all terrorists involved in the October 7 attack on trial. I would show that I run a real respectable country that happens to have terrorists (who we deal with), rather than a terrorist state. Israel would no longer have casus belli and the US would pressure it to end the conflict if I could show this was a legitimate good will effort.
Sounds like a pretty simple end to the conflict right (at least the current fighting)? No moral ambiguity. Terrorists lose, everyone else wins. That is, what should happen to solve the conflict is simple. We are merely stuck on the how. The current Hamas leaders aren't doing that, so they are clearly the bad guys because they are the best ones who can end the bloodshed. But is anyone pressuring them to do it? If all of the Palestinians in Gaza demanded that they did that, would it affect their decision? Could some lieutenant kill the leader, take over, and free the hostages? Why is it, in your opinion, that Palestine initiated an attack? You do understand that the deplorable conditions Palestinians are suffering under are not new and not a result of October 7th right? What makes you think that simply detaining and putting the Palestinian terrorists on trial would cause Israel to pull back? Why is the onus on the oppressed to act when the oppressor has not put its own terrorists on trial at any point during this decades long occupation? On October 16 2023 04:42 Magic Powers wrote:
Last time Hamas made Israel believe they're turning to economic growth and away from terrorism, it resulted in Hamas bombing a surprised Israel and getting themselves and much of Gaza bombed in return. Hamas are irredeemable and with this most recent attack they've made absolutely sure that Israel will never forget that. Why are we calling it a surprise attack when Iran and Egypt both informed Bibi weeks in advance this was coming? I didn't call it a surprise attack, I said they surprised Israel. It's unclear why exactly they didn't take the warning from Egypt seriously, but it's clear that higher-ups strongly underestimated Hamas' will and/or power to strike with such force. This will never happen again. Thus Hamas will never receive even a shred of trust. There's no such thing as a Hamas leader negotiating with Israel, that train has left for good.
Hamas doesn't represent all of Gaza let alone all of the Palestine. They're terrorists. No one honestly trusted them. The West Bank doesn't even trust them.
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On October 16 2023 05:38 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 05:33 Elroi wrote:On October 16 2023 04:43 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 04:16 Cerebrate1 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:44 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 16 2023 02:37 Cerebrate1 wrote:
This
If you were made into the leader of Hamas tomorrow, what could you do to stop the Palestinians from dying? 52% of Palestinians are under 18. They can have their water and electricity cut off at will. Hamas commits acts of terror which embolden Western Media and the IDF. The PLO spends more time in its non-violent protest being asked to condemn Hamas. School, Hospitals and News Stations are regularly destroyed by Israeli missles. What do you want Palestinians to do? To flip your statistic: 48% of Palestinians are over 18. That's over a million fully grown adults capable of making decisions. Here is how I would answer my question. If I was made leader of Hamas today, I could save the most of my people by releasing all hostages and putting all terrorists involved in the October 7 attack on trial. I would show that I run a real respectable country that happens to have terrorists (who we deal with), rather than a terrorist state. Israel would no longer have casus belli and the US would pressure it to end the conflict if I could show this was a legitimate good will effort.
Sounds like a pretty simple end to the conflict right (at least the current fighting)? No moral ambiguity. Terrorists lose, everyone else wins. That is, what should happen to solve the conflict is simple. We are merely stuck on the how. The current Hamas leaders aren't doing that, so they are clearly the bad guys because they are the best ones who can end the bloodshed. But is anyone pressuring them to do it? If all of the Palestinians in Gaza demanded that they did that, would it affect their decision? Could some lieutenant kill the leader, take over, and free the hostages? Why is it, in your opinion, that Palestine initiated an attack? You do understand that the deplorable conditions Palestinians are suffering under are not new and not a result of October 7th right? Islamist terrorists have agency. No one forced them to burn and behead infants and rape and kill. There is no justification for that. Why did hundreds of Arabs in Sweden, a country with free health care, free education (where you get payed to go to University) and one of the most solid welfare states in the world, choose to fight for the IS, murder and torture people indiscriminately? To be clear, the beheaded infants story was never proven (didn't stop everyone spreading it like wildfire) but we do have recorded proof of the IDF assaulting, raping, arresting and murdering Palestinian civilians. Not only are you ignorning the multiple war crimes Israel is committing, sounds like you're implying Islamist Terrorism is far more pronounced within the Palestinian population than is the reality. I can't speak to what happened in Sweden, but if people are murdering civilians, that's fucked up point blank. Propaganda is a disgusting evil tool, and everyone group clawing at power and influence uses it to horrific effect, Islamists are no different.
A reporter said something that wasn't true. It got debunked almost immediately. That fact is now being pushed mercilessly by pro-terrorists bot all across the net. So you can come in and say "nuh uh they never did that". Guess what. Your right.
But there are pictures of babies burned to death in their cribs. And stabbed. And that's true and . And there are MORE than 40 kids killed during the terrorists attack. Which conventionally gets discarded because "it's just a lie". So please stop with your false narrative as well.
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EPT
